Only as long as they are as gimped as guns.
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I've never really understood the point of psionics in this kind of setting - is it not effectively the same thing as magic, just with an implied different source? We already have a variety of sources of magic by way of sorcerer bloodlines.
Psionics in all previous D&D setups has been little more than an alternate magic system that has to be crammed into campaign settings after the fact. While I understand the point of genuinely *different* forms of supernatural power (ie, the way binders worked, or chakra slots worked, and so on) but if the effect of the new system is to just cast spells again, you're adding clutter without benefit.
Make a psychic bloodline for sorcerers and voila.
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I've never really understood the point of psionics in this kind of setting - is it not effectively the same thing as magic, just with an implied different source? We already have a variety of sources of magic by way of sorcerer bloodlines.
Psionics in all previous D&D setups has been little more than an alternate magic system that has to be crammed into campaign settings after the fact. While I understand the point of genuinely *different* forms of supernatural power (ie, the way binders worked, or chakra slots worked, and so on) but if the effect of the new system is to just cast spells again, you're adding clutter without benefit.
Make a psychic bloodline for sorcerers and voila.
+1 this isn't that bad of an idea even more so it could be done as archtypes to the existing spell casters and allow for multiple types of psions without needing a new rule set.
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Few issues are more divisive then Guns and Psionics, well perhaps the “edition wars” were more divisive, but thankfully they are over now.
While I am glad Paizo took a look at guns, developed rules and put them into the Ultimate combat, as a matter of personal taste, I do not like guns in what I think of as a “Sword and Sorcery” setting. I have a violent dislike for guns So I won’t be allowing guns in my home campaigns, no matter how much whining I get.
The only way they guns are getting in the front door, is if I am GMing a Pathfinder Society Organized Play game, and there I don’t have a choice. Gunslingers are a legal character class for PFS play.
But I do understand that Paizo has to satisfy their entire customer base, not just me. So while I can take or leave, (ill leave the guns and gunslingers out) , now that the rules are there, I am sure lots of people cant wait to use them. And I hope they have lots of fun with them.
Now I’m not stamping my foot and saying “I don’t like them Sam I am I don’t like Green eggs and ham” I actively play tested the rules, wrote two “play test” logs, which including an “adventure story”, (poorly written), and I did my best to give them an honest objective look over. But I find they are not my cup of tea.
As you can see, I have a bit of a visceral reaction against guns. I included my dislike for guns, because many people have a very similar visceral reaction against psionics.
However, I happen to think Psionics is the next best thing since sliced cheese. I can’t get enough books, stuff etc on Psionics. The highest level I have ever been able to get a character up to is 17 level. He was an 11 level Erudite/ 6th level Uncarnate. Good times…
I have the Psionics Unleashed, and most of Dream scared press’s books.
I think psionics fits in very well with my concept of a fantasy setting. To me they have a “mysterious” and “Indian” flavor to them.
But there are loots of people who have an equally violent dislike for psionics, just as I have for guns. Often people feel it is too “sci-fi” for them. There is a long list of dislikes. Often it stems from people having bad experiences with psionics wrecking their games.
The game designers at Paizo have I believe mentioned on threads that the Psionic rules, while balanced with themselves, (3.5) “don’t play nice with the rest of the rules.”
I have also read, that if Paizo does Psionics, they will retain the flavor, in terms of crystals etc, but probably develop a “vancian “ system for psioinics. I also believe, they may not even call “psionics” psionics but “mind magic” and thus hopefully avoid people’s knee jerk reactions against Psionics.
I think there is a happy medium with Dream Scarred Press doing Psionics Unleashed. This way Psionic fans such as myself have a 3.5 Expanded Psionics updated to Pathfinder, and Paizo is free to develops something themselves.
Only as long as they are as gimped as guns.
i don't really see guns as being gimped, maybe you could explain your reasoning?
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I don't want psionics in Golarion, same way I didn't want guns either.
That said, I'd be perfectly happy with then in a world built around those concepts... such as a Pirate campaign or semi steampunk for Guns...or in the case of Psionics, the Dark Sun setting was brilliant and really worked with the concept.
I really don't want wither of them in the mainstream setting though.
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Only as long as they are as gimped as guns.i don't really see guns as being gimped, maybe you could explain your reasoning?
I find the whole touch attack means we have to have super long reload times and super expensive ammo and increased auto-fail rates and the only weapons with actual crit failures, to be a bit much.
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Only as long as they are as gimped as guns.i don't really see guns as being gimped, maybe you could explain your reasoning in another thread, so this one doesn't get derailed?
Fixed it for you!
I didn't mind psionics so much, but I agree that they were pretty much just a different magic system, with mostly the same effects and mechanisms as spells. When Paizo does psionics, I hope it is truly different from 3.0/3.5 psionics.
Darn, ninja'd... :P
As I figure, if they do create some sort of psionics system it will be around when the book on the other planets in Golarions system. Since it seems there will be info on Castrovel and Aktion, and both may include some sort of psionic beings.
I'm a fan of Dreamscarred Press work, but if paizo makes a psionics system I hope its not a full blown sub system similar to magic, maybe sort of talents, etc.
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Oddly enough, as someone who likes psionics, I'd prefer if Paizo stayed out of it. Because Dreamscarred Press has already done a bang-up job presenting Pathfinder ruleset compatible psionics in Psionics Unleashed, and comments from several of the designers has indicated to me that the Psionics system the official Pathfinder design team would put together would not have the things I'd want from Psionics.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Oddly enough, as someone who likes psionics, I'd prefer if Paizo stayed out of it. Because Dreamscarred Press has already done a bang-up job presenting Pathfinder ruleset compatible psionics in Psionics Unleashed, and comments from several of the designers has indicated to me that the Psionics system the official Pathfinder design team would put together would not have the things I'd want from Psionics.
Exactly this.
Paizo has hinted that psionics exists Golarion, it's more common with the Vudrani and I think one of the other planets. If they ever do a Vudrani adventure path I suspect there will be a psionics book to go along with it. Until then I think they should let Dreamscarred run with it for as long as possible.
For what it's worth they have announced the APs though fall of 2012. It's possible the second release next year ("Shattered Star?" I think) might involve psionics but seems unlikely.
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[ Until then I think they should let Dreamscarred run with it for as long as possible.
How good it is? I like psionics in most RPG games but I never found a version I liked much for D&D/AD&D.
So if it is really good and mesh well with Pathfinder it would be worth buying it up.
I am not 100% positive but i have heard it is almost a 100% reboot of the 3.5 version of Psionics rewritten for PF.
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It'll still be a few years before Paizo does anything Psionicish.
That said you've already got access to Psionics Unleashed and all the other Dreamscared Press stuff.
I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
Different flavor. Bending and warping reality through use of willpower and belief alone, rather than finding backdoors through reality with the combination of arcane gestures and vocalizations.
For me, a vancian system reflavored doesn't cut it for that, though I guess the sorcerer could work if refluffed, but then the effects of many spells don't fit my conception of what mental discipline accomplishes. In fact, that's one of my gripes with 3.x psionics, it turned psions into just as much of a blaster as other spellcasters, and 3.5 even got rid of attack and defense modes. A duel of the minds is not longer that, it's just a spell duel now.
That being said, for what I DO like about 3.x psionics, Psionics Unleashed is exactly what I was looking for, so really, I could care less if Pathfinder does a psionics book or not, unless they can create a system that has the flavor I want, but without the complexity of the old rules. Don't get me wrong, I loved 2nd edition psionics, but those rules were arcane as f&%# (Skills & Powers simplified it a little, which was good, but... well, whatever).
I agree that if Paizo did Psionics, it would have to be vastly different from Dreamscarred Press psionics, as not to thoroughly destroy that company. James Jacobs among other developers has stated several times that they did not like 3.5 Psionics, and I'm sure that if Paizo updated Psionics, they would do so in a way that make sense for their products and their ideals as a company. In the mean time, if you enjoy that classic Psionics crunch, you can still with Dreaamscarred Press.
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I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
I would like to see some kind of unique system itself. Psionics has been more of like a spell points/mana system but disguised as psionics, but I'd like to see a new system that's not vancian, spell points, mana, or anything like it. I've got no idea what that might entail but I know I'd at least take a look at it.
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I would like to see some kind of unique system itself. Psionics has been more of like a spell points/mana system but disguised as psionics, but I'd like to see a new system that's not vancian, spell points, mana, or anything like it. I've got no idea what that might entail but I know I'd at least take a look at it.I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
to all of the folk who are answering in this thread (paraphrased) ... "i don't like guns and i don't like psionics so my answer is no"
please re-read the OP ...
what it is saying is "since the pandora's box of guns is now open cant we open psionics?"
meaning the arguments AGAINST bringing some form (which form is irrelevant) of psionics to the game by the PAIZO team is blown up by bringing guns
if you can bring guns to Swords and Sorcery RPG you can bring psionics
what it is saying is that now that guns are here the arguments against psionics have less weight
for example someone above said (paraphrased) "psionics are too sci-fi for Pathfinder"
to AGREE with the example above you have to say guns are not sci-fi they are swords and sorcery-ish, dungeon and dragon-ish
that is the argument, guns = psionics as far as the hesitation to add to Swords and Sorcery ... once you add one you can add the other officially
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I would like to see some kind of unique system itself. Psionics has been more of like a spell points/mana system but disguised as psionics, but I'd like to see a new system that's not vancian, spell points, mana, or anything like it. I've got no idea what that might entail but I know I'd at least take a look at it.I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
to all of the folk who are answering in this thread (paraphrased) ... "i don't like guns and i don't like psionics so my answer is no"
please re-read the OP ...
what it is saying is "since the pandora's box of guns is now open cant we open psionics?"
meaning the arguments AGAINST bringing some form (which form is irrelevant) of psionics to the game by the PAIZO team is blown up by bringing guns
if you can bring guns to Swords and Sorcery RPG you can bring psionics
what it is saying is that now that guns are here the arguments against psionics have less weight
for example someone above said (paraphrased) "psionics are too sci-fi for Pathfinder"
to AGREE with the example above you have to say guns are not sci-fi they are swords and sorcery-ish, dungeon and dragon-ish
that is the argument, guns = psionics as far as the hesitation to add to Swords and Sorcery ... once you add one you can add the other officially
I'm not quite following your logic. How are guns linked with psionics so that introducing one means you can/should introduce the other? Warhammer Fantasy has guns but doesn't have psionics.
Oh so it's this kind of logic, huh.
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I'm not quite following your logic. How are guns linked with psionics so that introducing one means you can/should introduce the other? Warhammer Fantasy has guns but doesn't have psionics.I would like to see some kind of unique system itself. Psionics has been more of like a spell points/mana system but disguised as psionics, but I'd like to see a new system that's not vancian, spell points, mana, or anything like it. I've got no idea what that might entail but I know I'd at least take a look at it.I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
to all of the folk who are answering in this thread (paraphrased) ... "i don't like guns and i don't like psionics so my answer is no"
please re-read the OP ...
what it is saying is "since the pandora's box of guns is now open cant we open psionics?"
meaning the arguments AGAINST bringing some form (which form is irrelevant) of psionics to the game by the PAIZO team is blown up by bringing guns
if you can bring guns to Swords and Sorcery RPG you can bring psionics
what it is saying is that now that guns are here the arguments against psionics have less weight
for example someone above said (paraphrased) "psionics are too sci-fi for Pathfinder"
to AGREE with the example above you have to say guns are not sci-fi they are swords and sorcery-ish, dungeon and dragon-ish
that is the argument, guns = psionics as far as the hesitation to add to Swords and Sorcery ... once you add one you can add the other officially
i am saying that guns are controversial and have MANY (if not the MAJORITY) of traditional Swords & Sorcery, Dungeons & Dragons gamers AGAINST their implementation
Paizo decided that we are adding Guns despite their anti-Swords & Sorcery and anti-Dungeons & Dragons "feel"
so...
if Paizo can add guns why can't they add psionics since Paizo seems to be getting away from traditional Swords & Sorcery RPG?
hope that makes better sense, i know that guns and psionics are different in mechanics, but they are the "same" in that they are out-of-the-box for traditional S&S RPGs
saying all that above, i have NO problem with what Paizo is doing with guns, i think it is okay ... just asking because i would like to see psionics too since Paizo showed the guts to go against the grain
Given the existence of Psionics Unleashed, I predict that if Paizo does a psy system it might be based of of Word-Casting.
I would love to see what Paizo would do with Psionics, I have yet to look at the Dreamscarred Press supplement on the subject. Then again I looked at the 3.5 Psionics and went, oh I'm a wizard with power points that's fine. I wasn't thrilled but then again the only time I personally played a psionic character was in 2nd with the Complete Psionics Handbook and had an absolute blast with just how radically different you had to approach things, especially when you fail those ability checks to use things like psychoportation.
Personally I would love to see Psionics more like their 2nd edition self where a lot of stuff was based off your ability checks. It was a neat way of doing things and had it's own inherent danger to the power which kept it moderately in check... Well until you were high enough level to do silly things with it.
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I would like to see some kind of unique system itself. Psionics has been more of like a spell points/mana system but disguised as psionics, but I'd like to see a new system that's not vancian, spell points, mana, or anything like it. I've got no idea what that might entail but I know I'd at least take a look at it.I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
Word-casting, perhaps?
(hat-tip Brambleman)
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what it is saying is that now that guns are here the arguments against psionics have less weightUnderstood.. there's simply no logic behind that statement. What do crude firearms have to do with funky X-Men style mental powers?
1) Both are controversial for how atypical they are of 'traditional' sword and sorcery fantasy; if Paizo is willing to kill one sacred cow by not only bringing in guns, but making them (relatively) effective and having a whole class and a load of archetypes dedicated to their use, then the similar complaints about psionics hold less weight--it's not traditional, but Paizo has proved to be willing to buck tradition over considerable complaints.
2) Both represent an effective 'advancement of the timeline' to a more modern or science-fantasy aesthetic.
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what it is saying is that now that guns are here the arguments against psionics have less weightUnderstood.. there's simply no logic behind that statement. What do crude firearms have to do with funky X-Men style mental powers?1) Both are controversial for how atypical they are of 'traditional' sword and sorcery fantasy; if Paizo is willing to kill one sacred cow by not only bringing in guns, but making them (relatively) effective and having a whole class and a load of archetypes dedicated to their use, then the similar complaints about psionics hold less weight--it's not traditional, but Paizo has proved to be willing to buck tradition over considerable complaints.
2) Both represent an effective 'advancement of the timeline' to a more modern or science-fantasy aesthetic.
^ This
well spoken Revan
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Psionics are fine. Wizards who use spell points and have a bit of New Age babble are not.
Different flavor. Bending and warping reality through use of willpower and belief alone, rather than finding backdoors through reality with the combination of arcane gestures and vocalizations.
Previous psionics systems involved casting components the same way spellcasting does, just without material components for most. Pathfinder sorcerers get eschew materials as a bonus feat.
Sorcerers already have a myriad of different sources for their power. They're covered by bloodlines. As a previous poster asked... what is it you see psionics doing that the existing magic system doesn't already do? If nothing, then your call for psionics is really just a call to replace the magic system, or to add a parallel magic system that uses spellpoints.
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Psionics provides two main things to me.
1) NOT VANCIAN. Some people think Vancian is dumb, and it's stupid, and it's stupid, and it's dumb. The power point system is incredibly straightforward, incredibly easy to get, and much, much more balanced. It's been called elegant before because well it is.
Vancian you have to keep track of every single spell you have, and lots of them are really samey, and it's far too powerful, and it has no soul or character, and the spells just bleed together into one big mess which sorta reflects on the whole Vancian system woops did I say that out loud?
2) More magical then magic. Sorry, I think grabbing reality with your mind and forcing it to change is more magical then learning magical cooking recipes that somehow bakes a fireball.
Oh so it's this kind of logic, huh.
Sadly, a lot of people believe this is rational logic. If a wizard can cast fireball then a fighter should be able to punch a hole in spacetime, right?
I've never really understood the point of psionics in this kind of setting - is it not effectively the same thing as magic, just with an implied different source?
That's the whole point. Just as the sorcerer and wizard are effectively the same class only they play differently, so too psionics. The mechanics are different, the fluff is different, but the ability to do "magic" stuff gets you ultimately the same place.
Just as we have somewhere between five and ten classes that are all just variants of "beat people with a stick", psionics introduce another way of approaching "zap people".
Personally I really think it's a shame Paizo didn't (to public knowledge) offer a license to Dreamscarred. It would've been to the benefit of both companies if the integration was tighter... yet clearly optional.
Different flavor. Bending and warping reality through use of willpower and belief alone, rather than finding backdoors through reality with the combination of arcane gestures and vocalizations.Previous psionics systems involved casting components the same way spellcasting does, just without material components for most. Pathfinder sorcerers get eschew materials as a bonus feat.
Sorcerers already have a myriad of different sources for their power. They're covered by bloodlines. As a previous poster asked... what is it you see psionics doing that the existing magic system doesn't already do? If nothing, then your call for psionics is really just a call to replace the magic system, or to add a parallel magic system that uses spellpoints.
Way to respond without reading the rest of a person's post. But in response to what you said: No, previous psionics systems did not include components. You didn't wave your hands in the air or say specific formulaic words, and there were very very very few powers that required any material, and in that case, it was a focus. They did include side-effects though, depending on the edition, including strange smells, flashes of light, unexplainable noises, or headaches for people in the general vicinity. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. But definitely not arcane formulae and physical gestures.
Also, if you'll note, I specifically said I was happy with what Dreamscarred Press did with Psionics Unleashed, and don't care if Paizo does a psionics book. I also mentioned exactly what it was I liked about psionics in previous editions (pre-3.x), because, as I again said before, 3.x changed psionics to be much more magic-like. Ever looked at the 2nd edition Psionics Handbook? Attack and defense modes for psionic duels that last mere seconds, and no one but the two duelers even know anything is happening until one of them collapses unconscious. Powers that depend on your skill and talent to use (alright, I didn't mention that one before, but someone a little higher up mentioned it and I had forgotten to before). Powers that don't concentrate on visible effects and blaster powers like magic does. More clairvoyant and controller powers, force effects (invisible or visible), Personal buffs, maybe some shapechanging. Not so much fireballs, lightning bolts, and such. Something not vancian, power points, skill checks, or whatever.
But again, as I'd said before, I am NOT calling for paizo to do a psionics book, Psionics Unleashed is all I would need or want from a 3.x psionics. But if they WERE to do one, since you asked, I'd like to see something maybe mixing power points and the skill driven idea behind Star Wars d20 revised version of The Force.
So... where are the good psi ideas?
Being published by a third party :p
The comments Paizo has made regarding psionics taught me that even if they did do it, I likely will not like the end results.
I seem to recall seeing something about there already being psionics in Golarion, and for some reason half-elves frequently turned out psionic. Am I imagining this? Or was it true once and has been retconned out of existence?
hey i don't mind guns in Ultimate Combat but when you cross that line surely it means other lines can be crossed right?
isn't it time to give psionics an official Paizo look?
They already said it won't happen, not the 3.5 version anyway. They might call it mystics or something, but too much baggage is attached to the name. People assumed the 3.5 version was bad because the previous versions were. I like psionics, but I have been in enough debates to understand the other arguments, not that I agree, but I understand.
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Here we go:
This combination of the closed mind of the
elves and the open mind of humans places half-elves in a
delicate and often brittle mental dynamic. This leads many
unfortunate half-elves into depression and even madness,
but their unique psychic structure also enables them to
manifest psionic powers far more commonly than any other
race (especially those whose elvish ancestors sojourned on
the Green World of Castrovel). Most common are psionic
wilders, whose psychic capabilities awaken naturally
and spontaneously, but half-elves have also been leaders
in creating psionic research enclaves and even training
academies for other psionic classes, especially in the far-off
lands of Vudra.
There's also a sidebar on half-elf affinity with crystals, and it was a pair of psionic half-elves that discovered the first psicrystals.
Interestingly, while some of the language leading up to the above quote is identical in the Inner Sea World Guide, the quoted text itself is absent.
So Psionics already exists in Golarion... maybe.
Will have been going to exist?
People assumed the 3.5 version was bad because the previous versions were.
No, we thought the 3.5 version was bad because the 3.5 psion took the sorcerer (who was already in the upper third of class power), increased his flexibility by replacing slots with power points, made all his spells still and silent for free, gave him a bonus feat progression, and then pretended this was "balanced".
Sure, it wasn't "broken" in the sense that it failed horribly if you tried to play it, but that's because it was the magic system, just powered up.
I would like to see some kind of unique system itself. Psionics has been more of like a spell points/mana system but disguised as psionics, but I'd like to see a new system that's not vancian, spell points, mana, or anything like it. I've got no idea what that might entail but I know I'd at least take a look at it.I've got to ask...
What would you like to see out of psionics that magic doesn't already provide?
Word-casting, perhaps?
(hat-tip Brambleman)
If they refined it a little bit, I'll try it. Words of Power are a little sloppy imo (the boost words mechanic), but if they came up with new words and a much tighter system I'd certainly try it out.
The spell point-like mechanic of 3.5 was alright, but I found wanting a real new system. Dreamscarred updated 3.5 psionics perfectly imo, but I'd still prefer a completely new system.
I'd like to see an update for Magic of Incarnum, but that's not OGL. I loved the mechanics behind the binding chakras and binding soulmelds to specific parts of your body but it was really underpowered and I'd never go straight Totemist or Incarnate or anything because the melds were just terrible choices.
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People assumed the 3.5 version was bad because the previous versions were.No, we thought the 3.5 version was bad because the 3.5 psion took the sorcerer (who was already in the upper third of class power), increased his flexibility by replacing slots with power points, made all his spells still and silent for free, gave him a bonus feat progression, and then pretended this was "balanced".
Sure, it wasn't "broken" in the sense that it failed horribly if you tried to play it, but that's because it was the magic system, just powered up.
Broken is relative. Many people had no issues with it. I don't want to derail this thread, but I have yet to see any proof it was broken. Everytime a claim has been made I have been able to project it back to the group's style of play of the GM.
Examples:
We only do two encounters a day so he burns all his powers or he burns all his power points too fast so we always have to rest.
1. The game was not built around 2 encounters per day.
2. If you world revolves around the PC's that is on you. When I GM the world goes on. While you are sleeping the bad guys are finding dead allies and getting setup for you, if not hunting you down before you get a full rest in.
That is all I have for now, and is my last point on that issue in this thread.
edit:Point 1 was with regard to the "Nova issue".
