as an aside....
if you get hit three times do people play it as three saves or one save with +4 to save DC?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Uggghhh...
I HATE Ghouls and Ghasts... One of my FAVORITE campaigns almost crashed and burned from ghouls...The only thing worse were carrion crawlers and grell.
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!Okay, the first grell's action is done...
So ended our Night Below game, where we utterly *smoked* a shadow dragon that was vastly tougher, and then got annhilated by some grell.
way off topic.
Anyway... DM is running a 'monster in the woods' type encounter. Since Esther was my secondary PC, he decided the flyer needed to go. Grell swoops down, grabs Esther and takes off. 8 paralysis attacks. I started laughing.
DM: What's so funny?"
Me: (channelling Captain Jack) "Dragon."
DM: So?
Me: Immune to paralysis.
DM: #$^#$&$%&$%&@&$&&!&%$&@%&$%&#$%& ;@$&$&@$%*$%^@#$^@#$
One full attack routine later, Esther's flying back to the party, complaining she needs a bath.
Bonus, when we fought the grell's friends... then they used *electrical attacks*
I <3 Blue Dragons.
There are two balancing factors here.
If a limb is occupied with a weapon, then the natural attack can no longer be made -- if there were some lizardman creature with two claws and a bite, and he picked up a morningstar, then he would get a morningstar, a claw, and a bite. It's when multiple attacks kick in, or the weapon's characteristics are very tempting, that it is a good deal.
Further, when you combine natural attacks with weapons, all of your natural attacks are considered Secondary even when they normally aren't. Secondary natural attacks are made at your highest BAB -5 (instead of highest BAB), and you only add half your Strength bonus to damage instead of your full Strength bonus.
So if you have a creature that has two claws, a bite, two wings and a tail slap -- you might not want to add a longsword into the mix 'just because the damage die is better than that claw', because if you do, there's a sudden huge penalty applied to any attacks that aren't already secondary. You just have to make judgement calls as to what is most appropriate.
Also good things to keep in mind. One final question on this--use of all these attacks assumes the monster is making a full round attack. If it had to take a move action prior, it can't do that, but would it still get full use of one kind of attack? i.e., in your example would it get to use its bite, its tail, two wings or two claws; or would it instead only get one single attack, chosen from the various methods available?
One final question on this--use of all these attacks assumes the monster is making a full round attack. If it had to take a move action prior, it can't do that, but would it still get full use of one kind of attack? i.e., in your example would it get to use its bite, its tail, two wings or two claws; or would it instead only get one single attack, chosen from the various methods available?
One single attack. Which is one of the main reasons you should try to keep such a Beastie away from making a Full Attack.
Best choice with ghouls: fight defensively, they have poor ACs for their overall CR. The extra AC will help limit the number of saves you have to make. Also, be willing to take attacks of opportunity if it means stopping the ghoul from making a full attack. 1 attack of op for movement +1 attack after ghoul chases is not as bad as 3 attacks for standing there and letting it maul you.
What makes them so powerful is that most players treat them the all monsters the same. "I charge in and attack."
They need to change up their tactics to deal with them. Most players simply don't.
I thought coup de grace could only be made by melee weapons and nit natural weapons?
Snapping the neck. Biting the jugular vein. Stomping on the head. Putting thumbs through eyes. Crushing the windpipe. Putting a long, angular claw through the temple or ear.
Coup de grace is a pretty specific thing, so most animals won't attempt it when it's possible (except when their prey is sleeping), but that doesn't mean that it's not possible for, say, an intelligent creature with a claw attack to slit the throat of his sleeping victim instead of swiping them.
Thanks, I did not expect 3 ghouls to be so "deadly". Well i guess thats what you experience as a newbie dm. Also I think what really turned the encounter that the Paladin (Tank) got paralized.
He got bitten with a AC of 23, as one Ghoul rolled a 20(+3) bit and the paladin didnt make the fortitude save for paralysis.The other may not have been coup de graced if the Paladin was still available....
Remember that doubling the number of creatures adds +2 to the CR. So since one ghoul is a CR1 2 is a CR 3, which was the level of your party, since you added another ghoul, the CR would have been about 4, which is challenging to a level 3 party. Add in the crit (seeing as a natural 20 ALWAYS hits, even if the paladin had an AC of 50) and it becomes really tough. The lower the level, the more a critical can change the tide of battle.
I would think that at worst its an oversight issue. A creature with even a 6 or 7 int would be smart enough to know how to administer a CDG and i would think if a 1d4 weapon in the hands of a 10 str commoner is enough then 1d4 claws on a 16 str creature would be plenty.
Yeah, see, monsters with just natural attacks can't make cdg attacks in my games. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the "melee weapon" clause in cdg means, to me, "weapon of the type used by PC's" or similar.
I assumed it was melee, as opposed to ranged. FAQ-worthy, I guess.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet).
In my book, that's sufficient to consider natural weapon the same as melee weapons for CdG.
EDIT: It also makes logical sense for even animals to be able to coup de grace. You're telling me that a wolf can't tear out someone's throat?
I think the question at that point becomes the manner of attack. Certainly a wolf could bite someone in the throat (or anywhere else) while they're helpless and asleep, but do they do it in the sort of precise manner that would call for a fortitude save to avoid death, or is it just a normal attack that (with all the penalties) is almost guaranteed to hit?
I would be inclined to agree with Talonhawke that a creature would have to have at least 3 intelligence (possibly higher) in order to achieve the cognitive thinking required for a coup de grace action, instead of just viciously attacking.
I would think that anything could make a CDG attack. Why WOULDN'T they??
Average dog or wolf's natural attack is to knock you down an rip out your throat.
Animals and creatures aren't fighting for the FUN of it... they are going for the kill. Even during a normal attack round they aren't trying to disarm or anything, they're going for the throat and your swatting them away with arms and shields...
If your paralyzed, asleep, or helpless... theres' nothing stopping them from ripping out your throat and dragging your carcass away.
It's basically a Critical hit, that you can't avoid. If a creature has the capacity to make a critical attack in combat, then they can make a critical attack with you paralyzed.
I would think that anything could make a CDG attack. Why WOULDN'T they??
Again, just mentality. A coup de grace is a single attack that takes a full-round action to perform. You would think most animals, being of animal intelligence, would just lash out with claws, bites and everything else. I suppose one could make the case for a wolf that carefully stalks its prey before finding it asleep and carefully pouncing as opposed to the heat of combat, but that's GM interpretation of the animal instincts.
I would think that anything could make a CDG attack. Why WOULDN'T they??Again, just mentality. A coup de grace is a single attack that takes a full-round action to perform. You would think most animals, being of animal intelligence, would just lash out with claws, bites and everything else. I suppose one could make the case for a wolf that carefully stalks its prey before finding it asleep and carefully pouncing as opposed to the heat of combat, but that's GM interpretation of the animal instincts.
Or in thise game, a dragon that will use hold person and then carefully bite someone's head off like the ears on a chocolate rabbit.
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I am sure the core book infers that cdg can only be performed with melee weapons. Natural attacks are not considered melee... So ghouls in our game do not cog!
The text is: "As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target."
From the context, I think it is pretty clear that they are excluding the use of those ranged weapons that are neither bow nor crossbow, not that they are excluding natural weapons. There is no reason either within the actions that are being modeled nor the games mechanics to exclude natural weapons. If a given game chooses to provide that additional limit based upon a narrow out-of-context reading of the phrase, that's their choice.
I am sure the core book infers that cdg can only be performed with melee weapons. Natural attacks are not considered melee... So ghouls in our game do not cog!
Actually natural weapons are not manufactured weapons. They are melee attacks however. So the real question is the defination of melee weapon compared to melee attack as you need a melee weapon to CDG or a bow or crossbow.
So is there a difference between a melee weapon and a melee attack.
Also by this reading of the rules you can't CDG with a gun either which i would find very odd.
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Howie, although I get what you're saying, as things are currently worded I refuse to believe I'm in "house rule" territory. I think I might be in "alternate rule interpretation" territory, but I think its far from clear that Masika and I are house-ruling things.
Weapon means weapon to me. Bite means attack, but falls short of Weapon.
Howie, although I get what you're saying, as things are currently worded I refuse to believe I'm in "house rule" territory. I think I might be in "alternate rule interpretation" territory, but I think its far from clear that Masika and I are house-ruling things.
Weapon means weapon to me. Bite means attack, but falls short of Weapon.
Do you remove weapon focus from monsters that have it as a listed feat in your games? It doesn't state natural attack in the feat it says weapon so i have to ask.
Howie, although I get what you're saying, as things are currently worded I refuse to believe I'm in "house rule" territory. I think I might be in "alternate rule interpretation" territory, but I think its far from clear that Masika and I are house-ruling things.
Weapon means weapon to me. Bite means attack, but falls short of Weapon.
You're in rules lawyer territory and threatening to go further.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
The dire lions feats: Feats Improved Initiative, Run, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Focus (claw)
Now, why on earth of someone can coup de grace with a dagger, couldn't they coup de grace with 6 inch talons?
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Howie, although I get what you're saying, as things are currently worded I refuse to believe I'm in "house rule" territory. I think I might be in "alternate rule interpretation" territory, but I think its far from clear that Masika and I are house-ruling things.
Weapon means weapon to me. Bite means attack, but falls short of Weapon.
As Talon has mentioned, many monsters have Weapon Focus (foo), where foo is a natural attack. The Weapon Focus feat's benefit is "Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon." A dire wolf has Weapon Focus (bite). This is a single example of a rule that you MUST accept that weapon can apply to a natural attack or it makes no sense.
You have an interpretation. Not all interpretations are equal. Your interpretation limits the scope of the word weapon into a tight area that makes other rules absurd. If faced with two interpretations and one results in absurdity and the other does not, it seems like the absurd interpretation needs to go.
I agree that the wording could be different to avoid the ambiguity. But I don't think that the "You can't CdG with a natural attack" position has anything to stand on other than an unnecessarily literal use of a phrase. It is countered by the context of the rule itself and the use of the phrase in other areas.
The game models events and activities. What is the possible value of excluding natural attacks within that context?
One could argue that use of feats with encounter creatures is purely mechanical, as to indicate a special circumstance such as +1 attack to a natural attack. Some feats/mechanics don't cross between PC and monster.
So your arguement as I see it is either,
A. The word weapon doesn't include natural weapons when i say it doesn't.
B. Monsters can take feats they don't meet preq's for if i want to indicate a special circumstance.
Actually, monsters can get feats they don't qualify for and can have more feats than their hit dice allow.
This intrugues me could you give an example of those. Would make homebrew monsters a bit easier.
Natural attacks like claws are weapons. They are just not manufactured weapons. CDG would have to specifically limit itself to manufactured weapons for claws and bites not to work, as an example.
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Actually, monsters can get feats they don't qualify for and can have more feats than their hit dice allow.
That said, Weapon Focus is listed as an Animal Feat for animal companions, and since no animal companion can use manufactured weapons, that should prove that natural weapons are, indeed, weapons.
OK, point taken, and accepted. I'll change the way I rule it. See, I'm not above logic!
Though I do slightly resent the "rules lawyer" moniker. Everyone with an interpretation of a rule that isn't the same as yours and who is willing to argue in favor of their position is not, in fact, a rules lawyer.
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I have a couple of questions about a Ghouls:
1 - When a character is bitten it says:
bite +3 (1d6+1 plus disease and paralysis)
The disease has an onset of 1 day.
Does this mean that there is an immediate save vs the paralysis and a separate save vs the disease after 24 hours? Or is there one save for both the paralysis and the disease?
2 - The characters are entering an old mansion that is infested by ghouls
I would love to hear some of your ideas of tactics for the ghouls.
Note, there is a Ghast in the house that is the boss.
The party is large (8 characters) consisting of:
- 1/2 Elf Fighter-4
- Human Fighter-4
- Dwarf Ranger-4
- Human Rogue-3
- Human Cleric-3
- Elf Wizard-3
- Elf Bard-2
- Elf Druid-3
Any ideas and insight would be most welcome.
Urlord
Ghouls are intelligent undead with an intense hunger for dead flesh, not living flesh. While one could certainly have the ghouls CdG paralyzed living foes (it is absolutely possible to CdG with natural weapons), there's a whole lot of other intriguing possibilities.
The ghouls may want to convert the PCs into ghouls and may tie them up, drag them away, and bite them to try to infect them with ghoul fever. They may want to force them to do things that the ghouls may not be able to do for themselves. They may be working for a more powerful villain.
Consider this: If your PCs are all paralyzed, that means you can have the ghouls take them anywhere you want them to go, coerce them into doing anything you want them to do, set up any kind of adventure hook you want to -- and they'll THANK you for not killing their characters! It's a GM's dream scenario.
I have a couple of questions about a Ghouls:
1 - When a character is bitten it says:
bite +3 (1d6+1 plus disease and paralysis)
The disease has an onset of 1 day.Does this mean that there is an immediate save vs the paralysis and a separate save vs the disease after 24 hours? Or is there one save for both the paralysis and the disease?
2 - The characters are entering an old mansion that is infested by ghouls
I would love to hear some of your ideas of tactics for the ghouls.
Note, there is a Ghast in the house that is the boss.
The party is large (8 characters) consisting of:
- 1/2 Elf Fighter-4
- Human Fighter-4
- Dwarf Ranger-4
- Human Rogue-3
- Human Cleric-3
- Elf Wizard-3
- Elf Bard-2
- Elf Druid-3
Any ideas and insight would be most welcome.
Urlord
Disease (Su) Ghoul Fever: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 13; onset 1 day; frequency 1/day; effect 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Charisma-based. A humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast.
You get an immediate save against both the paralysis and the disease. It's wise to make the disease save behind your GM screen, so they don't know, unless they got a good knowledge(religion) check or subsequent Heal check, that they are diseased. If they fail the initial save against an affliction, such as a disease, with an onset time, they save again after the onset time before they start taking effects. In this case, if they fail the first save, and then the second, they take the ability damage, and then wait the frequency (1 day) and save again. If they fail again, they take the damage again and wait another day, and so forth.
In regards to your party: half your party is immune to paralysis from all the ghouls except that ghast boss. You also have five characters with good fortitude saves. At level 4, a single hit from any of the fighters, rangers, cleric or druid (unless they're a caster-focused cleric or druid) will put a normal ghoul down, especially with bless/inspire courage and other buffs happening. These players will wipe the floor with these ghouls unless you take care with your tactics and NPC construction.
I would suggest giving all your mook ghouls a level in rogue or something like that. Give the Ghast a few levels in Cleric of Urgathoa or Kabiri (demon lord of ghouls). This will allow him to channel negative energy to heal his minions or harm the PCs, and buff himself. Make sure the boss does not face the PCs alone.
Ghouls have darkvision and very good perception and stealth scores. Use these. Make sure the mansion is completely dark, and all windows and openings to the outside are boarded up. Insist they use light sources, and enforce the rules of light sources. Have your boss cast Darkness when it's time to fight him, for example -- only your dwarf will be able to see in it, and none of your players should have Daylight yet. When a target can't see a rogue, that rogue can often sneak attack him. If they're using torches, keep in mind that those without low-light vision won't be able to see past 40 feet away. As rogues, the ghouls will be proficient in weapons, such as bows and arrows. They don't have to rush in and attack. A cool option could be to give your boss Brew Potion as a feat, or else give him an assistant with that feat, and have him have brewed a large number of Oils of Darkness. These can be applied to any object, such as an arrow, and your ghoul mooks can use the tactic of shooting a darkness-enshrouded arrow into the middle of your party, and then attacking under the cover of the spell. Have secret doors and passages, lots of debris and furniture to stop charges and interrupt line of sight, and you'll have a grand old time.
A few people earlier in the thread brought up elves being immune to the paralysis of a ghoul, but I can't seem to find that in my books. Is it still a thing?
You get an immediate save against both the paralysis and the disease. It's wise to make the disease save behind your GM screen, so they don't know, unless they got a good knowledge(religion) check or subsequent Heal check, that they are diseased. If they fail the initial save against an affliction, such as a disease, with an onset time, they save again after the onset time before they start taking effects. In this case, if they fail the first save, and then the second, they take the ability damage, and then wait the frequency (1 day) and save again. If they fail again, they take the damage again and wait another day, and so forth.
In regards to your party: half your party is immune to paralysis from all the ghouls except that ghast boss. You also have five characters with good fortitude saves. At level 4, a single hit from any of the fighters, rangers, cleric or druid (unless they're a caster-focused cleric or druid) will put a normal ghoul down, especially with bless/inspire courage and other buffs happening. These players will wipe the floor with these ghouls unless you take care with your tactics and NPC construction.
I would suggest giving all your mook ghouls a level in rogue or something like that. Give the Ghast a few levels in Cleric of Urgathoa or Kabiri (demon lord of ghouls). This will allow him to channel negative energy to heal his minions or harm the PCs, and buff himself. Make sure the boss does not face the PCs alone.
Ghouls have darkvision and very good perception and stealth scores. Use these. Make sure the mansion is completely dark, and all windows and openings to the outside are boarded up. Insist they use light sources, and enforce the rules of light sources. Have your boss cast Darkness when it's time to fight him, for example -- only your dwarf will be able to see in it, and none of your players should have Daylight yet. When a target can't see a rogue, that rogue can often sneak attack him. If they're using torches, keep in mind that those without low-light vision won't be able to see past 40 feet away. As rogues, the ghouls will be proficient in weapons, such as bows and arrows. They don't have to rush in and attack. A cool option could be to give your boss Brew Potion as a feat, or else give him an assistant with that feat, and have him have brewed a large number of Oils of Darkness. These can be applied to any object, such as an arrow, and your ghoul mooks can use the tactic of shooting a darkness-enshrouded arrow into the middle of your party, and then attacking under the cover of the spell. Have secret doors and passages, lots of debris and furniture to stop charges and interrupt line of sight, and you'll have a grand old time.
Thanks for the information and ideas - I think I will implement aome or all of them.
To the OP:
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Brrraaaaiiinnnsss!
As ghouls hunger for dead flesh, do internet ghouls hunger for dead threads?
