Unfortunately, yes. It's a full round action that provokes AoO's but if the whole party is paralyzed, they're SoL.
Automatic hit, instant critical hit. Fort save or die vs 10 + damage dealt.
Ghouls have a 3 chances to git and paralyze (bit and 2 claw attacks) as a full round action and managed to paralyze some of my PCs for a couple of rounds that failed on the paralyze fortitude save.
Now we had the question if those ghouls can do coup de grace on the helpess (for up to 5 rounds!) paralyzed pcs. All of the 4 PCs are lvl 3 and they were fighting 3 ghouls.
The coup de grace would mean double damage right?
thanks for the answer! i wonder if this woud really be the TPK:-)
Yes. A paralyzed creature is helpless and open to a coup de grace attack.
Coup de grace is a full round action which provokes attacks of opportunity. It automatically hits with one weapon (attacker's choice from his available weapons) and is an automatic crit. So for the ghouls it would deal (d6+1)x2 damage.
The target of the coup de grace must then make a fortitude save versus a DC of 10 + damage dealt or die immediately. It's a nasty, nasty move.
And in response to the thread title, yes. You are likely about to have a TPK.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
So, any ghoul who wants to may announce a Coup de Grace. This will result in drawing an Attack of Opportunity from any non-paralyzed party members currently threatening the Ghoulie, but deal twice normal damage (from one attack, either a claw or a bite) to the paralyzed PC.
Should the PC survive the damage, he has to make a Fort Save, with a DC of 10 + whatever damage the single Coup de Grace attempt dealt.
Edit: Darn Ninjas!
Edit: Darn Ninjas!
Yeah! This forum is way too helpful and not nearly combatative enough today.
also why the fortitude save against die immidiatly?
Because that's what a coup de grace does.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
... i did not expect that! and for damge would it not be 2d6 +2 or d6+1x2? also why the fortitude save against die immidiatly?
Oh, please, try to at least read the PRD...
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
So, you roll twice, and add the results.
The Fort Save is necessary because of the Coup de Grace Action (like I quoted earlier). After all, that's what the intention behind the maneuver is: to kill that helpless opponent.
And yes, an encounter with 3 CR1 Ghouls is CR4, according to the Designing Encounter Guidelines. CR4 is meant to be a challenging task for a level 3 group.
Edit: Ninja'ed again (for halt of my post, at least)
Ghouls can be extremely dangerous. Same with Shadows. Do note, however, that Elves (and Half-Elves, by virtue of being counted as both Humans and Elves) are immune to ghouls' paralysis ability. If any of the party are Elves or Half-Elves, they cannot be paralyzed by basic Ghouls.Yes, but according to RAW only Elves are not - my Half Elf got paralyzed! as it says only elves are resistent.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
PRD Home\Races\Half-Elves]Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
That rule does NOT make Half-elves immune to paralysis. It doesn't automatically give them all the special abilities of Elves and Humans...It just means they count as Elves and Humans for things like Favored Enemies and Bane weapons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hungry are the dead!
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.That rule does NOT make Half-elves immune to paralysis. It doesn't automatically give them all the special abilities of Elves and Humans...It just means they count as Elves and Humans for things like Favored Enemies and Bane weapons.That's exactly what the rule does. It isn't a racial trait that elves are immune to paralysis (that wouldn't carry over to half elves), but rather an effect of the ghoul's paralysis that elves are immune to it.
For purpose of all effects related to race, half-elves count as both elves and humans. So a paralysis which elves are explicitly immune to also does not apply to half elves. They get the good with the bad of being dual-blooded.
That's exactly what the rule does. It isn't a racial trait that elves are immune to paralysis (that wouldn't carry over to half elves), but rather an effect of the ghoul's paralysis that elves are immune to it.
Ah, okay, your right, if it's a special property of Ghoul paralysis and not a special ability of Elves, then it totally applies.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.That rule does NOT make Half-elves immune to paralysis. It doesn't automatically give them all the special abilities of Elves and Humans...It just means they count as Elves and Humans for things like Favored Enemies and Bane weapons.
It makes them Humanoid (Human, Elf).
Paralysis immunity is not an elf racial trait. Rather it is part of the special attack of the Ghoul, which is an effect that is related to race. So, half-elves are immune.
EDIT: Ninja'd again. I seriously need to take Improved Initiative.
That rule does NOT make Half-elves immune to paralysis. It doesn't automatically give them all the special abilities of Elves and Humans...It just means they count as Elves and Humans for things like Favored Enemies and Bane weapons.
Immunity to ghoul paralysis is not elven racial ability. Inability to affect elves is feature of ghoul paralysis ability. I would say that it is effect related to race - as per elven blood ability description.
EDIT: Those Ghoul Rogues and their stealth is terrible. They seem to sneak attack us from everywhere!
I win the ninja wars!
They do not have to coup de grace the fallen. If I were you have the ghouls retreat, dragging the fallen with them (meal time) while it is unlikely the party will recover as they are slowly eaten alive it does give the others time to save some of them, maybe or at lest 2 of the 3 a chance to make it.
PRD Home\Races\Half-Elves]Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.That rule does NOT make Half-elves immune to paralysis. It doesn't automatically give them all the special abilities of Elves and Humans...It just means they count as Elves and Humans for things like Favored Enemies and Bane weapons.
The paralysis is an effect that doesn't affect elves. Its an effect related to race.
|
I would have the ghouls feast on the still-living paralysed bodies of the PCs, inflicting normal bite damage each round. Maybe the odd claw attack to let the juices flow...
Much more fun than a coup de grace ... the joys of devouring still quivering, living flesh, feeling the heart beat through the warm red blood gushing from the wound. Ghoul heaven!
If the PCs manage to escape that, they will never underestimate ghouls again.
I wonder how you would handle the Fort saves, to see when the PC would come out of paralysis. I'm sure someone will comment on that.
I run mostly Paizo AP's. If there is a ghoul encounter, I typically have a PC death. My players despair when they realize they're fighting ghouls. I'm almost getting leary of using them (though if they reading this, don't hold me to it)
They're among the most dangerous creatures for their CR.
In response to having them feast on the dead party members, It does specifically say in their description that they do not like to eat fresh flesh. They would much rather bury it and let it rot for a while. They are also intelligent, like 10 or more int, so they won't bury it right then, and they understand a threat when the see one.
Ok first of all half elves are immune to ghoul paralysis for two reasons:
1) Since they count as human and as elvels for the bad things (bane, favored enemy etc.) it's only fair that they count as both of races for the good things.
2) One of the Devs (can't remember who) said so in a somewhat recent thread (one i can't seem to find now) and iirc there was such a mention in one book (horrors reviseted i think).
Now when my party of 5 level 4th poeple (magus, oracle, druid, fighter, bard) encountered 3 ghouls and 4 skeletons we didn't really had a problem because only the druid was unlucky enough to fail his save but had his allosaurous companion to help him until my elf magus rushed to his aid.
Also the fact that 3 out of 5 had good fort saves helped and so did the fact that the two poeple with the low fort along with the fighter went in the other side of the corridor and were fighting the skeletons.
Besides which, better to leave one or two PCs alive so they can be infected and turn into ghouls, yes?
Besides which, better to leave one or two PCs alive so they can be infected and turn into ghouls, yes?No, default ghouls would not think that way. They're intelligent undead, but they have an all-consuming hunger for mortal flesh. Given the choice between eating someone or turning them, a standard ghoul would choose the feast 100 times out of 100. Now, a ghoul NPC with a stronger willpower and a plot goal might be able to resist the hunger. Basic ghouls though, not a chance.
First, turning more humans into ghouls means that meals have to be shared with more relatives. While lone ghoul or two have interest in extending their pack to four or five members, thus increasing their ability to gain susteance and for mutal protection larger group can become problematic. Unless there is plenty of food walking around allowing for greater local ghoul population.
From a DM standpoint however it really isnt a bad thing to give someone a chance to survive over a tpk. Its all the more memorable for the players if they wake up being gnawed on and barely escape than if its new character time or worse they are saved by random npc b.
Totally off the subject of half-elven immunity to ghoul paralysis (or lack thereof), I'll ask for a little clarification here instead of making a new thread. I was always under the impression that a creature even using full attack wouldn't get to use every single attack listed. In this case, could a ghoul using full attack actually use both claws and its bite attack, effectively paralyzing up to three people in one round if they lose their saving throws? A creature that has multiple claws, a tail attack and a bite can use all of those?
|
Besides which, better to leave one or two PCs alive so they can be infected and turn into ghouls, yes?
Other GM 'outs' for this sort of situation;
1) The ghouls are working for someone, someone that wants fresh blood, or to charm / enslave people, or needs some human sacrifices for the big party this weekend. So they just paralyze prey and hog-tie it to bring to whoever has them commanded / rebuked.
2) The ghouls like fresh meat, the fresher the better. Any ghoul can eat carrion, but they like it still screaming when they take that first bite. Again, paralyze, hogtie and then devour at leisure (unintentionally giving an opportunity for their 'snack for later' to escape).
3) They are servants of a power, such as Urgathoa, in Golarion, who wants to spread the plague of undeath across the world (or, at least, this local community, perhaps for some religious reason, such as the locals persecuting the local disease-goddesses worshippers or refusing to propitiate her in the time-honored fashion or destroying a long-lost statuette / reliquary to her they found while digging up a field). This gives them a very specific reason to want to infect captives with ghoul fever and then send them out to cause trouble. It's a ghoul 'catch and release program.'
4) The party is turned into ghouls. The next game, the players get to play their new ghoul selves attacking the local village. The next, next game, they get to play a new group of heroes, sent to find out why there's been no word from the local village...
A variation on this might be to allow each player to play both one new hero character *and* one ghoul character, and to be encouraged to play both to their full ability and not hold back, putting them in the position of possibly killing their new character! Not every group will be up for that sort of 'my own worst enemy' adversarial playstyle, but for those that are, it could be memorable.
Uggghhh...
I HATE Ghouls and Ghasts... One of my FAVORITE campaigns almost crashed and burned from ghouls...
It was 2E and there half-elves are NOT immune to paralysis... 4 out of 5 of our party were frozen, and fortunately there weren't any coup-de-graces either... or our favorite game wouldn't have happened.
My half elf monk basically got to stand there and feel himself get eaten alive till the ranger was able to clear the others and finally get to him... got all the way to -9 O.o
it was... a BAD encounter. We were only level 1 or 2... it was REALLY early in the game... That character made it to lvl 18, and they may come back in a future game.
I HATE Ghouls... >.<
|
|
Uggghhh...
I HATE Ghouls and Ghasts... One of my FAVORITE campaigns almost crashed and burned from ghouls...
The only thing worse were carrion crawlers and grell.
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Okay, the first grell's action is done...
So ended our Night Below game, where we utterly *smoked* a shadow dragon that was vastly tougher, and then got annhilated by some grell.
Totally off the subject of half-elven immunity to ghoul paralysis (or lack thereof), I'll ask for a little clarification here instead of making a new thread. I was always under the impression that a creature even using full attack wouldn't get to use every single attack listed. In this case, could a ghoul using full attack actually use both claws and its bite attack, effectively paralyzing up to three people in one round if they lose their saving throws? A creature that has multiple claws, a tail attack and a bite can use all of those?
Yes
And some monsters have a combination, usually monsters with a 2 claws plus other natural weapons routine that can also wield weapons. The horned devil serves as the example here: "+1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun), bite +22 (2d8+5), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus infernal wound) or 2 claws +24 (2d6+10), bite +24 (2d8+10), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)". This guy can either get three iterative attacks with his spiked chain and then also get secondary attacks with his bite and tail, or he can attack with his two claws and his bite and his tail.
Brutal. Well, that just ramped up the difficulty of a bunch of monsters. Thankfully we're only easing into it at level 3 on the first book of Kingmaker, so it won't be as big of a shock. Thanks.
Just because they can CdG, doesn't mean they will.
But as undead who are hungry for flesh, they totally will.
IF one of my paralyzed players was a cleric (I see your paladin is too low a level), and IF his holy symbol was on his shield (something I let my players do), I'd consider that presenting the symbol - meaning he could still channel energy while paralyzed (a mental action).
Just one more option in case it helps.
And some monsters have a combination, usually monsters with a 2 claws plus other natural weapons routine that can also wield weapons. The horned devil serves as the example here: "+1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun), bite +22 (2d8+5), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus infernal wound) or 2 claws +24 (2d6+10), bite +24 (2d8+10), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)". This guy can either get three iterative attacks with his spiked chain and then also get secondary attacks with his bite and tail, or he can attack with his two claws and his bite and his tail.Brutal. Well, that just ramped up the difficulty of a bunch of monsters. Thankfully we're only easing into it at level 3 on the first book of Kingmaker, so it won't be as big of a shock. Thanks.
There are two balancing factors here.
If a limb is occupied with a weapon, then the natural attack can no longer be made -- if there were some lizardman creature with two claws and a bite, and he picked up a morningstar, then he would get a morningstar, a claw, and a bite. It's when multiple attacks kick in, or the weapon's characteristics are very tempting, that it is a good deal.
Further, when you combine natural attacks with weapons, all of your natural attacks are considered Secondary even when they normally aren't. Secondary natural attacks are made at your highest BAB -5 (instead of highest BAB), and you only add half your Strength bonus to damage instead of your full Strength bonus.
So if you have a creature that has two claws, a bite, two wings and a tail slap -- you might not want to add a longsword into the mix 'just because the damage die is better than that claw', because if you do, there's a sudden huge penalty applied to any attacks that aren't already secondary. You just have to make judgement calls as to what is most appropriate.
Fluff text from the Pathfinder books on undead implies that fear "sweetens" the flesh. So a ghoul is not likely to CDG a meal that could be "sweetened" by slowly just eating it while it's paralyzed. If guaranteeing one kill suddenly became a priority, like if four ghouls were attacking and one was easily dispatched, the others might try to CDG and pick up and run off with a meal.
And +1 that any enemy with the ability to stop a PC from acting (Paralysis, Hold Monster, Sleep, Suggestion, Dominate, etc) is very powerful.
Best choice with ghouls: fight defensively, they have poor ACs for their overall CR. The extra AC will help limit the number of saves you have to make. Also, be willing to take attacks of opportunity if it means stopping the ghoul from making a full attack. 1 attack of op for movement +1 attack after ghoul chases is not as bad as 3 attacks for standing there and letting it maul you.
The ghoul paralysis is now a short duration, so it is critical for the ghoul to CDG its briefly helpless target. In previous editions when it lasted minutes, the ghouls could reliably leave paralyzed foes for later, this is not the case anymore.
Also remember a 5' adjustment can be taken with the CDG action and the helpless victim can have his space occupied by a foe. So depending on the party's placement, finishing off a victim safely may be easiest in his own space >:)
Uggghhh...
I HATE Ghouls and Ghasts... One of my FAVORITE campaigns almost crashed and burned from ghouls...The only thing worse were carrion crawlers and grell.
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!
Save, or be paralyzed (and then die)!Okay, the first grell's action is done...
So ended our Night Below game, where we utterly *smoked* a shadow dragon that was vastly tougher, and then got annhilated by some grell.
GAHHHHH..
I think I had to work the night our Night Below group hit the Grells... I heard the horror stories. We'd all seen the pictures in the Monster manual... but We'd never seen them in ACTION before O.o
Don't remember Carrion crawlers being too bad... Though one guy DID get eaten i guess...