We are doing bassically the same, yes. The only difference is I gave a name to the ki points.That's basically what I do, Gustavo. The Ninja player itself is often referred as "rogue" by the other players. And "scoundrel" by their characters, heh...
His character never made any mention of "Ki". For him, it's just some magical talent. He learned to cast minor spells to be better at infiltration, kinda like the "Minor Magic" Rogue Talent. Vanishing Trick is just an Invisibility spell cast through his minor knowledge of magic.
Wakizashi? Well, use a dagger instead. Or just call the wakizashi a dagger. (Although it doesn't really matter because he uses a pair of cestus).
Heh... Pretty much, yeah. My player refers to Ki Points by their original name just to make it easier for the GM (me) and the other players to understand how he's doing whatever he's doing, but his character never clled it "Ki". It's just some magic ability he learned somewhere.
I was also thinking about homebrewing some useful Rogue Talents for him.
I'm a bit worried about his saves, though. The party is at 8th level, so Fort/Will saves are increasingly important now.
I am at work right now, post he 10 or 11 archeologist and I post a rogue later and then we see what happens.
The bard is probably better but by how much? I do not think is by much but who knows.
If had the Herolab package which included Dawnflower Dervish, I bet I could cook up a bard which would out damage a rogue easily, but I don't have it (and there's no way I'm doing it by hand).
But I don't really see that as relevant.
You see, the general premise here is that you add characters to do a different division of labor.
OK, say you're running the archetypical 4 PC party.
On the basic level, this is Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, Bard.
But it doesn't have to be. It could be Wizard, Fighter, Ranger, Oracle. Then the ranger can handle the traps, and the Oracle can handle the faceman duties. The skill jobs get divied up between the two, and the aggregate power of the party is increased.
If you happen to have five:
Wizard, fighter, cleric, bard, ranger
covers all the bases you would ever need a rogue for, and is appreciably more powerful than adding a rogue in there somewhere.
While combat bard builds can be done, those generally give up the force multiplication potential of inspire courage, which is much more powerful than a fairly good combatant which is all the bard can manage to be. This is of course better on larger teams. I don't know that I'd favor a bard on a small team, but the larger the team, the better the bard effect.
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Let me redirect conversation briefly--if you go back to the beginning of D&D, you start with Magic User, Cleric, and Fighter. Then quickly, they add Rogue.
You get arcane magic, divine magic, non-magical awesomeness.
Then they add, uh, the only way to do anything skilled.
What are skills? If you boil it down, they are non-magical ways to overcome challenges that aren't killing things. The wizard and cleric could already use their magic to overcome non-combat problems, so the Rogue added a non-combat way to solve things without magic (the fact that such a system already existed in the form of attribute rolls not withstanding).
Please, explain to me why the non-magical combat class and the non-magical non-combat class should be different classes, while the combat arcane magic class and the non-combat magic class are one in the same (i.e. the Magic User/Wizard).
As a bonus side comment:
The Ranger actually is such a class--it's a full BAB class with great skills (though it does also get minor spells). The wilderness baggage is another issue--thanks Tolkein.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: Fighter and Rogue should be combined. And this does not, in any way, prevent you from playing your "not as good at combat" skill guy, trust me.
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Heh... Pretty much, yeah. My player refers to Ki Points by their original name just to make it easier for the GM (me) and the other players to understand how he's doing whatever he's doing, but his character never clled it "Ki". It's just some magic ability he learned somewhere.
To be honest, my player still call them "ki" quite often, even with a new fancy name made for him :P
I was also thinking about homebrewing some useful Rogue Talents for him.
I'm a bit worried about his saves, though. The party is at 8th level, so Fort/Will saves are increasingly important now.
I homebrewed one talent, based on Forgotten trick. It's called "versatility", it cost 1 cunning/ki point, and it let you use any rogue talent from a list. That list include bassically all those situationally good rogue talents, that no rogue takes ever. Things like "fast fingers" or "quick disable", "rope master", "peerless maneuver", "convincing lies", "ledge walker" or "false friends". It helps a lot to make the rogue the kind of "I have a lot of cards in my sleeve" character that it should be, imho. You pay 1 cunning/ki point, and you do something cool that no one else ussually do (such as pick locks as standard actions, walking fast through tight ropes, spreading false rumours or coaxing people). There are a lot of situations where a rogue *could* shine if he had the proper talent, but those talents are soooooo situational that nobody takes them (and those who do, get shafted with 1 fewer talent for the majority of the game time, until the situation arise)
Let me redirect conversation briefly--if you go back to the beginning of D&D, you start with Magic User, Cleric, and Fighter. Then quickly, they add Rogue.
You get arcane magic, divine magic, non-magical awesomeness.
Then they add, uh, the only way to do anything skilled.
What are skills? If you boil it down, they are non-magical ways to overcome challenges that aren't killing things. The wizard and cleric could already use their magic to overcome non-combat problems, so the Rogue added a non-combat way to solve things without magic (the fact that such a system already existed in the form of attribute rolls not withstanding).
Well, the rogue *could* have an spot, if he were somewhat special at skill checks. Just like Paladins and Barbarians share the spot with the fighter, or Summoners and Druids share the Wizard and Cleric spot.
If the rogue could roll 2d20 for every trained skill, or if he could use skill tricks in combat (say, an acrobatic roll to dodge an attack, or a sleight of hand roll as damage -twist the knife-, or using sense motive to detect invisible creatures, or being able to become invisible with a stealth check at -10, or using a spellcraft check as his Will save for mind affecting spells, etc) he might be unique and special. Dunno, I've just pulled all those off my hat right now, probably half of those aren't anyway balanced, but I think you get my idea.
Right now, rogue is just a guy who can do the same things that everyone else, except he has 8 points instead of 6. It's not very unique, actually. If he could pull some tricks with skills *that nobody else could do*, then that would be a possible niche.
Okay, I tried to make a Bard who could fill pretty much every role a Rogue could wish for. Except disarming magical traps, because I honestly think that's a rather unnecessary role. (Even so, he could do it with Perception, Detect Magic and Dispel Magic)]
Once more, this is a 10th level character who uses 20pt buy and standard WBL. I'm sure it could be better optimized.
No, it's no an Archeologist Bard.
Barry Bardington CR 9
Male Vishkanya Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (vishkanya)
Init +11; Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
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Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +10, Ref +15, Will +9; +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects, +10 bonus vs. poison
Resist poison resistance +10
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Cold Iron Scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+9/18-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Scimitar +15/+10 (1d6+10/18-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite shortbow (Str +1) +13/+8 (1d6+5/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (26 rounds/day), bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (4 targets) (dc 19), bardic performance: inspire competence +3, bardic performance: inspire courage +2, bardic performance: inspire greatness (1 allies), bardic performance: suggestion (dc 19), battle dance: inspire courage +4, battle dance: inspire greatness
Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) Spells Known (CL 10):
4 (2/day) Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
3 (4/day) Good Hope, Haste, Dispel Magic, Mad Monkeys
2 (5/day) Heroism, Mirror Image, Silence (DC 16), Invisibility, Glitterdust
1 (6/day) Saving Finale (DC 15), Silent Image (DC 15), Restful Sleep (DC 15), Grease (DC 15), Disguise Self
0 (at will) Read Magic, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation (DC 14)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 27
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Defensive Combat Training, Dervish Dance, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Traits Reactionary, Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +17, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Disguise +17, Escape Artist +7, Fly +17, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +14, Perform (act) +17, Perform (dance) +17, Perform (oratory) +17, Perform (percussion instruments) +17, Sense Motive +17, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +20, Survival -1 (+1 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +17
Languages Common, Draconic, Vishkanya
SQ battle dance (swift action), jack of all trades: trained skills, mediative whirl (2/day), poison use, spinning spellcaster, toxic (2/day) (dc 18), versatile performance abilities (acting, dance, oratory), well versed
Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +1 Cold Iron Scimitar, +1 Composite shortbow (Str +1), +2 Silversheen Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +2, Ring of sustenance, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 2205 GP
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance (move action) (26 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (4 targets) (DC 19) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Greatness (1 allies) (Su) Grants allies 2 bonus hit dice, +2 to attacks and +1 to fort saves.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 19) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Battle Dance (swift action) A Dawnflower dervish is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the Dawnflower dervish’s performances grant double their normal bonuses, but thes
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +4 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Battle Dance: Inspire Greatness (Su) Grants self 4 bonus hit dice, +4 to attacks and +2 to Fort saves.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jack of All Trades: Trained skills (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mediative Whirl (2/day) (Ex) Quicken a cure spell as a move action.
Poison Resistance +10 Gain listed bonus to saves vs poison.
Poison Use (Ex) You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Spinning Spellcaster (Ex) +4 bonus on concentration checks to cast spells defensively.
Toxic (2/day) (DC 18) (Ex) Can apply poisonous blood/saliva to a weapon as a swift action.
Versatile Performance (Acting) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Act skill for Bluff or Disguise checks
Versatile Performance (Dance) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Dance skill for Acrobatics or Fly checks
Versatile Performance (Oratory) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
- He gets a scaling bonus to damage thanks to Arcane Strike (already accounted for). Which costs a swfit action every round, but other than starting his Performance and occasionally quickening a few cure spells, he doesn't have any other use for his swift actions anyway.
- The save DC of his spells is not very high, so I focused more on buff/utility spells.
- His own saves are about on par with the Rogues I posted earlier, but thanks to having good will save progression, the gap will become bigger with every level.
- It's very easy to shuffle his skills around to fit any character concept, I focused a bit more on social encounters, though. I didn't invest in Knowledge skills because Dawnflower Dervish Bards lose Bardic Knowledge.
- Inspire Courage can gis his attack and damage rolls a bonus of +4. Not to mention spells like Haste, Good Hope (which doesn't stack with Inspire Courage, unfortunatelly), Freedom of Movement, Mirror Image, etc...)
- Thanks to Versatile Perfomance, he effectively has 10 skill points per level. Not counting the Performance skills!
All in all, he has similar stats to my Rogue builds, but has far more options and can buff not only himself, but also his allies.
I'm too lazy to calculate his DPR, but I'm guessing he's better than a Rogue who can't Sneak Attack, but is still behind one who can.
I posted a rogue variant a while ago that does a lot of what Lemmy is suggesting - it merges the rogue and ninja into one class, gives them a pool of points to spend on daily powers (I used cunning and panache for Int and Cha based rogues with mechanics based on gunslinger grit) and buffs the rogue talents considerably.
Of course, I haven't run a Pathfinder game to test the darned thing, but people seemed to like it okay.
I do not know how you calculated the DPR. However your example did an average of 18 (31 with sneak attack) of damage per hit and my example do
23 (40) per hit.
I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate my DPRs. It accounts for crits, non crit damage, target AC, and all that jazz.
Let me see you have for your bard (when self buffed):
Courage +4 competence hit/dam, +2 weapon Scimitar, +2 morale Good Hope, +1 Haste, 7 BAB, 1 WF, 5 Dex = hit +22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d6+2 magic +4 courage + 5 Dex + +2 Arcane Strike= 1d6+13
Target AC at CR 9 is 23.
DPR: (0.95)(16.5) +(0.15)(1)(0.95)(16.5)= 18.03 for 2 attacks
and (0.70)(16.5) +(0.15)(1)(0.70)(16.5) = 13.28
Total = 49.34
I would personally have traded Heroism for (2nd level Haste) Allegro since you take Good Hope later (same bonus).
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A bard is never going to do as much damage, but is going to be far more useful. Often the most useful member of a party of 6...
He'll do, if you count as "his" damage the damage added to every attack of every party member through inspiring courage. Specially in parties with pets and summons.
Starbuck I think Good Hope doesn't stack with Inspire Courage, as both of them are Morale bonuses, so Barry's DPR might be a bit lower than what you got.
You're probably right about Heroism. I din't put that much thought about spell selection, heh... Thanks to HeroLab I made that Bard in about 5~10min... lol.
Also, while the Barry doesn't deal as much damage on a hit as a (Sneak Attacking) Rogue, he does hit a lot more often, thanks to his spells and Bardic Performance. Not to mention he also increases the DPR of everybody else on the party.
In a smaller party, I have found rogues are kinda low priority. You really want spell casters and tanky damage dealers for that type of play. Neither of which are filled by the rogue.
The big issue is that a rogue in a small party will have a lot of difficulty sneak attacking.
In a smaller party, the best characters are those that are spellcasters AND tanky. Combat clerics, Magus, Summoners, oracles and bards make for incredibly good PC in parties of 2-3 members.
For solo games, Magus, Summoner (synthesist), Druid (focus in shapechange) and Clerics (combat type) are the best imho.
Starbuck I think Good Hope doesn't stack with Inspire Courage, as both of them are Morale bonuses, so Barry's DPR might be a bit lower than what you got.
You're probably right about Heroism. I din't put that much thought about spell selection, heh... Thanks to HeroLab I made that Bard in about 5~10min... lol.
Also, while the Barry doesn't deal as much damage on a hit as a (Sneak Attacking) Rogue, he does hit a lot more often, thanks to his spells and Bardic Performance. Not to mention he also increases the DPR of everybody else on the party.
Actually, in 3.5 it was a Moral bonus when it was hit/dam/fear saves.
In PF, it is a Competence bonus to hit/dam, morale to fear saves.So you are fine with Good Hope then Dancing (dervish style)
Starbuck I think Good Hope doesn't stack with Inspire Courage, as both of them are Morale bonuses, so Barry's DPR might be a bit lower than what you got. (...)Actually, in 3.5 it was a Moral bonus when it was hit/dam/fear saves.
In PF, it is a Competence bonus to hit/dam, morale to fear saves.So you are fine with Good Hope then Dancing (dervish style)
Ah, that's good to know. I took it mostly because it also boosts saves and also to be on the safe side if Barry ever runs out of Performance rounds.
It sounds right to me. Afther 2 rounds of buffing and 3 spells spended It would be despicable not to have a good DPR.
That's a valid point. I'd like to calculate Barry's DPR with only Arcane Strike, Bardic Perfomance and maybe Haste, since he'll most likely spend his first round casting buffing the party (including himself).
I think I too have a DPR spread sheet here, but I'm not very good at using it... lol.
A bard is never going to do as much damage, but is going to be far more useful. Often the most useful member of a party of 6...
Anyway.
Rogue Fix:
TAKE COMBAT TRICK AS OFTEN AS YOU LIKE
Yeah, a few games I were in allowed that. One such char had really strong ac, a feinting rogue that fought from the front. Combat trick is quite useful, but I know another dm only said you could take it once. Ah well.
Huh... If I didn't do anything wrong, Barry's DPR on a full attack with Haste + Arcane Strike + Bardic Performance is 35.26.
I'm not sure I didn't miscalculate anything, though... I'm still learning to use this sheet... ^^
EDIT: Huh... It doesn't seem to be taking the extra attack from haste into accoutn... That's odd...
DPR led school of TWF Uber Alles, hilarious!
It seems like a very useful tool. Can you calculate the DPR for the two rogues I posted above?Huh... If I didn't do anything wrong, Barry's DPR on a full attack with Haste + Arcane Strike + Bardic Performance is 37.54.
I'm not sure I didn't miscalculate anything, though... I'm still learning to use this sheet... ^^
I can try. Like I said, I'm not very good at using this thing... -.-'
BTW, here's where I found it:
Hey, Nicos, How is Grumpy getting +21 with his Falchion? I only got +18
+7 BAB + 7 Str + 1 WF +3 Falchion = +18
Same goes for his bite attack. I only got a +10.
Is the missing +3 the Ioun Stone?
Yeah, I'm doing something wrong here... Adding the Bite attack is lowering the DPR... -.-'
EDIT: Sorry, man I really dunno how to use this sheet. Hopefully someone will figure it out or do the math the old-fashioned way. I keep fooling around with this thing in order to try and learn to use it, but I can't say I'll be successful.
nevermind lemmy.
Can you level up barry to 11th level? It is easy for you since you have herolab.
Sure... Here he is.
He may be a little different since I had to remake it (I forgot to save his character file -.-')
For the extra spell known, I chose Phantom Steed (Communal), that's always useful. There are probably better choices, but I really like this spell.
I wasn't sure how to spend the extra money, so I got a btter secondary scimitar, a improved Cloak of Resistance and a pair of Boots of Striding. He still ahs 3400gp left. Enough to buy some useful consumables.
Again, his stats already include Arcane Strike.
Barry Bardington CR 10
Male Vishkanya Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 11
N Medium Humanoid (vishkanya)
Init +11; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
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Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 86 (11d8+33)
Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +10; +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects, +11 bonus vs. poison
Resist poison resistance +11
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +2 Cold Iron Scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+10/15-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Scimitar +16/+11 (1d6+10/15-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cestus +10/+5 (1d4+4/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite shortbow (Str +1) +14/+9 (1d6+5/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (28 rounds/day), bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (4 targets) (dc 19), bardic performance: inspire competence +4, bardic performance: inspire courage +3, bardic performance: inspire greatness (1 allies), bardic performance: suggestion (dc 19), battle dance: inspire courage +6, battle dance: inspire greatness
Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) Spells Known (CL 11):
4 (3/day) Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Phantom Steed, Communal
3 (5/day) Good Hope, Haste, Dispel Magic, Mad Monkeys
2 (5/day) Mirror Image, Silence (DC 16), Invisibility, Alter Self, Glitterdust
1 (6/day) Saving Finale (DC 15), Silent Image (DC 15), Restful Sleep (DC 15), Alarm, Grease (DC 15), Disguise Self
0 (at will) Read Magic, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation (DC 14)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 18
Base Atk +8; CMB +9; CMD 28
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Defensive Combat Training, Dervish Dance, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Traits Reactionary, Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +18 (+22 jump), Bluff +18, Diplomacy +18, Disable Device +3, Disguise +18, Escape Artist +7, Fly +18, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +15, Perform (act) +18, Perform (dance) +18, Perform (oratory) +18, Perform (percussion instruments) +18, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +21, Survival -1 (+1 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +18
Languages Common, Draconic, Vishkanya
SQ battle dance (swift action), jack of all trades: trained skills, mediative whirl (2/day), poison use, spinning spellcaster, toxic (2/day) (dc 18), versatile performance abilities (acting, dance, oratory), well versed
Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +1 Composite shortbow (Str +1), +2 Cold Iron Scimitar, +2 Silversheen Scimitar, Masterwork Cestus, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Boots of striding and springing, Cloak of resistance +4, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +2, Ring of sustenance, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 3400 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance (move action) (28 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (4 targets) (DC 19) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +4 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +3 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Greatness (1 allies) (Su) Grants allies 2 bonus hit dice, +2 to attacks and +1 to fort saves.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 19) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Battle Dance (swift action) A Dawnflower dervish is trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the Dawnflower dervish’s performances grant double their normal bonuses, but thes
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +6 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Battle Dance: Inspire Greatness (Su) Grants self 4 bonus hit dice, +4 to attacks and +2 to Fort saves.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jack of All Trades: Trained skills (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mediative Whirl (2/day) (Ex) Quicken a cure spell as a move action.
Poison Resistance +11 Gain listed bonus to saves vs poison.
Poison Use (Ex) You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Spinning Spellcaster (Ex) +4 bonus on concentration checks to cast spells defensively.
Toxic (2/day) (DC 18) (Ex) Can apply poisonous blood/saliva to a weapon as a swift action.
Versatile Performance (Acting) +18 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Act skill for Bluff or Disguise checks
Versatile Performance (Dance) +18 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Dance skill for Acrobatics or Fly checks
Versatile Performance (Oratory) +18 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Also, I forgot to mention last time I posted him, but his so-so Fortitude save is pretty amazing against Poison, since Vishkanya get a bonus equal to their HD in saving throws made to resist Poison. But this is a race feature, not a class feature.
Here's an Inquisitor who thinks he's a Rogue.
Steve Stealthson CR 10
Male Human (Azlanti) Inquisitor 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 86 (11d8+33); judgement of sacred healing 4
Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +14
Defensive Abilities judgement of sacred protection +3 / +6, stalwart; DR judgement of sacred resiliency 3: magic; Resist judgement of sacred purity +3 / +6, judgement of sacred resistance 8 (fire)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Longspear +16/+11 (1d8+10/x3) and
. . +2 Longspear +17/+12 (1d8+11/x3)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +4) +11/+6 (1d8+5/x3)
Special Attacks bane (+2 / 2d6) (11 rounds/day), judgement of sacred destruction +4, judgement of sacred justice +3 / +6, judgement of sacred piercing +4, judgement of sacred smiting (magic, adamantine)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Alignment (At will), Discern Lies (11 rounds/day)
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 11):
4 (3/day) Spell Immunity, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement
3 (5/day) Protection from Energy, Heroism, Dispel Magic, Burst of Speed
2 (5/day) Find Traps, Knock, Tongues, Silence (DC 16), Invisibility
1 (6/day) Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Protection from Law, Protection from Evil, Disguise Self, Litany of Sloth
0 (at will) Stabilize, Read Magic, Detect Poison, Create Water, Detect Magic, Light
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +14; CMD 31
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Cornugon Smash, Defensive Combat Training, Furious Focus, Lookout, Lunge, Outflank, Power Attack -3/+6, Stealth Synergy, Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Traits Focused Mind, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +2 (-2 jump), Bluff +18, Climb +10, Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +23, Knowledge (arcana) +8 (+12 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8 (+12 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (nature) +8 (+12 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (planes) +8 (+12 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Knowledge (religion) +8 (+12 to identify the abilities and weaknesses of creatures), Perception +18, Sense Motive +23, Spellcraft +15, Stealth +16, Survival +4 (+9 to track), Swim +10 Modifiers monster lore
Languages Azlanti, Common, Draconic
SQ domains (conversion inquisition), judgement (4/day), solo tactics, swaying word (1/day) (dc 19), teamwork feat (change 4/day), track
Other Gear +3 Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +4), +1 Longspear, +2 Longspear, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +2, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +2, Ring of sustenance, 3740 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bane (+2 / 2d6) (11 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Discern Lies (11 rounds/day) (Sp) Discern Lies at will
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Inquisitor Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.
Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Judgement of Sacred Destruction +4 (Su) Weapon Damage bonus.
Judgement of Sacred Healing 4 (Su) Fast Healing
Judgement of Sacred Justice +3 / +6 (Su) Attack bonus
Judgement of Sacred Piercing +4 (Su) Concentration and vs. SR bonus
Judgement of Sacred Protection +3 / +6 (Su) AC bonus
Judgement of Sacred Purity +3 / +6 (Su) Save bonus
Judgement of Sacred Resiliency 3: Magic (Su) DR/magic
Judgement of Sacred Resistance 8 (Fire) (Su) Energy Resistances
Judgement of Sacred Smiting (Magic, Adamantine) (Su) DR bypass
Lookout Act in the surprise rouns if an adjacent ally with this feat can act in the surprise round.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Monster Lore +4 (Ex) +4 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Outflank Flanking bonus increases to +4 if the other flanker also has this feat, and ally gets an AoO if you score a critical hit against the target.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Second Judgement (4/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Stealth Synergy Take the highest roll made by you and your allies on Stealth checks
Swaying Word (1/day) (DC 19) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Teamwork Feat (change 4/day) Swap your most recent Teamwork feat for another
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
- This guy is amazing at social encounters, even though he dumped Charisma! Conversion Inquisition + at will Discern Lies + at will Detect Allignment + Class bonus to Sense Motive and Intimidate = Social Awesomeness.
- His spell list alone is enough to steal the Rogue's spotlight. It includes things like:
Cantrips: Detect Magic; Prestidigiation
1st level: Disguise Self
2nd level: Find Traps, Invisibility; Knock; Silence; Tongues
3rd level: Dispell Magic
4th level: Freedom of Movement.
- Honestly I'd rather grab Lesser Restoration instead of Find Traps, but this guys want to be a Rogue, so Find Traps it's!
- His saves are pretty good too. Reflex is the only one that is kinda bad. But at this level, failing a Reflex save is nowhere as dangerous as failing a Fortitude or Will save.
- Also, Stalwart makes it so he doesn't even suffer the reduced effects from spells.
- I gave him Power Attack and Cornugon Smash to make use of his amazing Intimidate bonus. Also, I really like Cornugon Smash.
- He can use two judgements at the same time, 4 times a day. Always activating them as a swift action. This means he could possibly get +3 to hit and +4 to damage rolls every combat.
- If he chose to focus less on socializing, he could grab other great domains like Luck, Travel and Feather.
- He's also pretty good at indentifying monsters, with a +12 when doing so. He could even grab a feat to iprove this number even more.
- He has a +8 Initiative, and all he invested in it was a Trait!
The only thing this guy lacks is Sneak Attack and some ranks in Disable Device. And I'd much rather have spells and judgements than Sneak Attack and Rogue Talents.
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From what I've seen, Rogues lack too many options when compared to the other "skill monkey" classes.
I must say the difference in AC is not as big as I thought it was. And even the saving throws are not that much worse f he invests some cash at it, although they do tend to lag behind in higher levels anyway.
Then again, the Rogue doesn't do his skill any better than anyone else. Inquisitors and Bards are just as good at Stealth and Infiltration even without their spells, and much better at social challenges.
Sneak is pretty good when it's possible, and it's a lot more reliable in PF than in 3.5, when pretty much everything was immune to it. Now the only creatures who ignore it are elementals, swarms, oozes and proteans (I think).
Unfortunatelly, Sneak Attack doesn't do anything to increase the accuracy of the Rogue or his friends, so a character with better-than-normal AC is still a problem.
Rogue Talents are mostly subpar, although there are some that are decent and even pretty good. It's very possible to build a Rogue full of good talents (even if 3 of those are just an "extra feat"). It's maybe the one case where the class feature is worse than usual feats. e.g.: "Extra Arcana", "Extra Hex" and "Extra Rage Power" are all great feat choices... "Extra Rogue Talent"... not so much.
It basically seems like the Rogue's strengths becomes less and less significant as the game progresses, while his weaknesses become more and more debilitating.
So, yeah, it's basically what we were saying:
Rogues are playable and can contribute, but they are much less effective than every other class with a similar role.
I'd be really glad f some Rogue enthusiast proves me wrong (with actual evidence instead of things like "you don't know how to play a Rogue! Rogues should be using [random-tactic-usable-by-everyone]".
Again, I like Rogues, I just don't think they are very good.
OK, some DPR calcs since they were requested:
Elf McRogue: (some problems here, to hit is slightly off from what I see, should be +19/+11). In your favor you shorted yourself a sneak die, so 6d6).
Target AC 29
With sneak full attack
DPR = 45
Single attack with sneak
DPR 39
Full without sneak
DPR 25
Single without sneak
DPR 20
As an editorial comment, I don't think this one is very likely to get that many sneaks off given that he needs to rely primarily on positioning or winning initiative. He will start a combat with sneak, and can dash off single attacks with sneaks, but is unlikely to be able to stand on the line and pull it off if the DM plays the target smart. Given how little the second attack actually does, I would have ran with a spring attack build so you can dash into combat and back out to safety, with the scout trick making them all sneaks. This would only cost 6 DPR and be much safer.
Grumpy Mcthug (numbers look correct here, except sneak, where again you shorted yourself a die)
Full attack with sneak (against AC 29 again)
DPR 78
Single attack with sneak
DPR 49
Full attack no sneak
DPR 38
Single attack no sneak
DPR 26
Again, I'd run with the spring attack trick myself. I admit the bite is a neat trick which yields 10 DPR or so on a full, but I like the safety of not holding the line. Though offensive defense will probably do a nice job of pumping the AV, you're still only starting with a 22, so you get to 28. Giving the target the shaken condition makes this effectively 30. The critters I'm testing against (CR 14 BBEGs basically) tend to bet a +23 to hit. So they are tagging a 30 on a 7, so 70% of the time. I don't think you want to stand there for that. A Nalfeshnee for example will deal out ~35 damage to you per round on average (very rough calc, would be a bit higher in the DPR calc).
Zipping in and popping it for 49 points a rounds from relative safety while the fighters deal with the return hits seems like a better way to live till retirement. Even if you did rile the critter enough to chase you (with teleport most likely at that level), at least it takes him down to a single attack.
@DrBuzzard
Mcrogue have a least DPR that I thought while Mcthug have more than I expected.
Abot Mcthug note that he can also make his target sickened, so his contributon tho the fight is more than just damage. For example a Withc will love that -4 to all BBEG´s saves. Beides If he have a lucky roll he could frighten thet BBEG for one round, that is pure win.
Ahh, didn't notice that till I looked it up(thug ability). That explains 5d6 sneak. It brings the full sneak DPR down to 74. Not a bad trade really.
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Lemmy some options to consider on the knife master. If you go this route you can buy back trapfinding at the cost of 2 levels of bard detective, if you are so inclined. Opening round (surprise rnd if possible) - single attack with dagger. (check AC boundary) Round 1.5 - full attack up to 3 primary attacks at -6. High AC comes either from armor, na, spells, or dex. So the flatfooted (if they are surprised lose dex). This guy peels off spells with his dispelling attack so high ac via spells (might) go down. The dragons, full plate fellas, - change over to touch attack rays (the knife master loses d6's to d4's doing this. At the higher levels stick in spell storing dagger for some added punch to key targets. Round 2 - either move back for sniping, vanish for position, or move to a flank. Round 3 - TWF dagger, snipe at range, or launch from invis. And when all else fails - true strike every other round....if you can't hit with that (get out.) Combined with the snipers goggles you can max out the range for the dagger and still hit.
Adv. Talents
Dispelling attack
Opportunistic strike
Normal talents
Fast stealth
Snipers eye
Minor magic (pre req) disp attack)
Major magic (pre req) disp attack)
Feats
PBS
PS
Twf
Blind fight
Imp blind fight
Imp init
Essentially d8's for sneak attack, no trouble with sneak and concealment.
Minor magic disrupt undead 3/day
Major magic possibly true strike 2/day
Bard spells unseen servant, vanish, tap inner beauty
Key gear
snipers goggles 20k (sneak attack at any range, and +2 damage within 30)
Spell storing dagger (I prefer the 4d6 no save spells)
Hey, Righty, Ihave a few concerns with that build, first and foremost, it seems you're assuming the best-case scenario for that Rogue build
- Surprise rounds become increasingly difficult to get as the levels go up, since lots of enemies get all kinds of crazy senses.
- Ranged Sneak Attack is very unreliable. Unfortunatelly, archery is not a very good way to go.
- Remember, to make a full attack and really benefit from that TWFing extra Sneak Attack, you have to be standing right there, next to the enemy. And you do it with lowish AC (admitedly, not as low as I thought it'd be, but still subpar) and medium BAB (without any way of buffing your to--hit).
- I'm not sure how useful Disrupt Undead is. True Strike is a good spell, but relying on it means you lose a lot in action economy.
But again, I do not doubt this Rogue's DPR is pretty awesome when he does manage to sneak attack. I don't even doubt this same Rogue can contribute to the party. I do however, doubt that his overall usefulness and combat support is as good as an equally optimized Bard or Inquisitor. Both of those classes can deal decent damage more reliably, are much better at social encounters and can easily buff themselves and their allies. They are also just as good as Rogues at stealth and infiltration even without their spells. Add those to the math and they outperform the Rogue all the time.
As I said in my last post, I do believe that a Rogue can aid the party. They are not useless or unplayable. They can even fill a few roles really weall. But compared to other classes with similar abilities and intended roles, Rogues are rather underwhelming.
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It an and not an or. He goes to range when possible. Those typical detections have a range limit hence the goggles. And in many cases eg scent or even darkvision its not infallible. The build maxes out for the early attack and then moves in if necessary. My next post will optimize strike from range. Then my favorite generalist. It may take a few days to post my work impedes my fun.
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After looking at these builds, the bragging etc, I still find Rogues to be more useful than the others mentioned.
I don't like Ki. Too easy to use up, too quickly. Those Ranger spells some of you are so proud of? Same deal.
Gimme a Rogue who has lots of skills and can use them all day long without needing to resort to a special number of uses a day. Combat each day is limited to how much the characters can endure, but skill rolls aren't, or hasn't anyone here noticed?
More than that, these builds don't take into account the general setting the character class is adventuring in. No flexibility. One love tap, and the character goes dead, along with their almighty combo.
Gimme a Rogue who thought to take Iron Will or Great Fortitude somewhere along the line when dealing with a GM that loves undead, one that adapts to whatever challenges are thrown in the way.
This optimized build thing is just plain nonsense, and doesn't occur outside of a campaign that has everyone starting out at a high level. Most of us play in games where we start out at the lowly 1st level, where life is cheap and you are a Red Shirt (tm).
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After looking at these builds, the bragging etc, I still find Rogues to be more useful than the others mentioned.
You really do like to ignore all evidence contrary to your claims, don't you? I'm starting to think you're just trolling... But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt once more...
I don't like Ki. Too easy to use up, too quickly. Those Ranger spells some of you are so proud of? Same deal.
I don't thing they are spent that quickly unless you go nova every encounter. But even if they did, you know what's worse than having limited resources? Not having any resources at all! Sure Ki and spells get spent, but at least Ninjas and Rangers have something to spend!
Gimme a Rogue who has lots of skills and can use them all day long without needing to resort to a special number of uses a day. Combat each day is limited to how much the characters can endure, but skill rolls aren't, or hasn't anyone here noticed?
Rangers have almost as many skill ranks as Rogues and a dozen other useful class features. Ninjas have the exactly same number of skill ranks and the same class skills. Bards have effectivelly MORE skill ranks than Rogues and even get to use Cha for Sense Motive, Acrobatics and Fly if they want. Ah, and they get spells too.
More than that, these builds don't take into account the general setting the character class is adventuring in. No flexibility. One love tap, and the character goes dead, along with their almighty combo.
You say "no flexibility" but fail to explain how eactly the rogue is more flexible than Rangers, Bards, Inquisitors or Ninja. All of those character have better defenses and survivability than Rogues.
Gimme a Rogue who thought to take Iron Will or Great Fortitude somewhere along the line when dealing with a GM that loves undead, one that adapts to whatever challenges are thrown in the way.
Again, how exactly are Rogues any more versatile than any of those classes? And how exactly are their defenses better? Bards, Rangers and Inquisitors all have better saves and AC. Rogues are a very feat starved class, even more so if you want to go for the classic dex-based build.
This optimized build thing is just plain nonsense, and doesn't occur outside of a campaign that has everyone starting out at a high level. Most of us play in games where we start out at the lowly 1st level, where life is cheap and you are a Red Shirt (tm).
None of the builds posted here need to start at high level to work. All of them can be built overtime and can probably outperform an equally optimized Rogue each and every time starting as soon as 2nd or 3rd level, depending on class and build.
You make lots of claims about Rogues and how they are more effective than the other skilled classes, but never gave us any evidence to support your point.