FAQ / Clarification: Lightning Reload and Multiple Attacks

[Cibulan]

There is some question/debate about how the Gunslinger's level 11 ability "Lightning Reload" (LR) interacts with the feat "Rapid Reload" (RR) for the purpose of multiple attacks.

Lightning Reload:

At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The question arises from the use of the phrase "can reload a single barrel".

One can interpret this to mean that LR can only be used once per round (provided at least 1 grit point). For example, if a gunslinger has RR: Pistol, she can reload once per round using a free action via LR, but any further reloads require alchemical cartridges.

On the other hand, one can also interpret this to mean that she can only load one barrel, as many times as she wants (as free actions). Let me clarify, LR says she can reload ONE barrel as a free action. Typically you receive unlimited free actions per turn (within reason).

So logically she should be able to reload that same one barrel multiple times per round as free actions. What this wording prevents is reloading firearms with more than one barrel as a free action. For example, she could only reload one barrel of a double-barrel pistol or pepperbox. But I suppose she could simply load all of the barrels of a pepperbox with multiple free actions.

So the question at the heart of this is whether an 11th level Gunslinger should be able to make full-attacks each round without using Alchemical rounds (provided she has RR and 1 grit point)?

Asked another way, does the phrase "can reload a single barrel" mean she can only reload one barrel per round, or only one barrel per free action?

[Midnight_Angel]

I must admit, for me the phrase "can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round" clearly states that once per round, you can reload a single barrel, which will cost you one of your (infinite numbers of) Free Actions.
As opposed to being able to reload a barrel once per round, costing you your single Swift Action slot for the round.

The words 'once per round' pretty much sum it up. So, sorry, no full attack with that trusty pepperbox of yours.

[Cibulan]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

I must admit, for me the phrase "can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round" clearly states that once per round, you can reload a single barrel, which will cost you one of your (infinite numbers of) Free Actions.

As opposed to being able to reload a barrel once per round, costing you your single Swift Action slot for the round.

The words 'once per round' pretty much sum it up. So, sorry, no full attack with that trusty pepperbox of yours.

My problem with that interpretation is that "once per round" is only used in reference to the swift action section. If you have RR, it then says "If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead.".

"As a free action each round instead" does not imply a limit because one has unlimited free actions. It only implies a limit if it is modifying the swift action sentence. To me it is unclear whether it is a modification sentence or a new point entirely.

If it is meant to modify the swift action sentence, then the ability should read: "she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action once per round instead". The current wording of "as a free action each round instead" is unclear.

If it is the first interpretation then it is a damn shame because no martial class should have to pay a tax (paper cartridges) simply o full-attack. Firearms are cool but the Gunslinger is lackluster itself but this would be the straw to break the camel's back to make me never want to play one despite my interest.

To parody another popular phrase, "Non-bow users can't have nice things".

[WalterGM]

The bigger question:

Lightning Reload + RR + Twin Shot knockdown (pistolero archetype)

Spoiler:

At 11th level, when the pistolero hits a single target with two or more one-handed firearm attacks during her turn, she can spend 1 grit point to knock the target prone. She can choose to spend the grit point after the attacks are made. This deed replaces the menacing shot deed.

So is that 6 attacks around with Greater Two Weapon fighting? What if they have two double barreled pistols? 12 shots a round - if 2 hit the target is knocked prone, no save?

That's a little much if it's indeed legit.

[Pancake Rabbit]

You still need a free hand to reload a firearm, meaning two-weapon fighting isn't possible without Alchemist vestigial arms or some such.

[Cibulan]

I'm bumping this because I have now seen this question arise in at least three other threads. It'd be nice to get some official word or more discussion at least.

[leo1925]

Cibulan wrote:

Asked another way, does the phrase "can reload a single barrel" mean she can only reload one barrel per round, or only one barrel per free action?

I believe it's the second, it seems kinda stupid to me that an 11th level gunslinger who has the rapid reload feat can't make all of his attacks with a musket.

I can understand why other classes can't make all of their attacks with an early two-handed firearm but i can't understand why gunslingers shouldn't be able to.

[Richard Leonhart]

I hope this gets answered soon because it reads as if it's really only that 1 free reload per turn.
But please don't let us return to that concept of a gunslinger with 20 weapons on strings.

On the other hand, a revolver with 6 chambers could full round attack for a round.

Edit: deleted a technical mistake of mine

[Maxximilius]

Pancake Rabbit wrote:

You still need a free hand to reload a firearm, meaning two-weapon fighting isn't possible without Alchemist vestigial arms or some such.

Yes it is, look for my weapon cords strategy to TWF with pistols.

The pistolero is the only one striking me as potentially broken for the gunslinger : no save-trip, additional damage on each bullet, TWF... and I hope the use of double-barelled weapons during a full-attack action, a vital strike or a Dead Shot will be clarified.

[Cibulan]

leo1925 wrote:

Cibulan wrote:

Asked another way, does the phrase "can reload a single barrel" mean she can only reload one barrel per round, or only one barrel per free action?

I believe it's the second, it seems kinda stupid to me that an 11th level gunslinger who has the rapid reload feat can't make all of his attacks with a musket.

I can understand why other classes can't make all of their attacks with an early two-handed firearm but i can't understand why gunslingers shouldn't be able to.

I believe this may be a case of player expectations differing from developer expectations. As players, we are used to our PCs being able to full-attack; melee can do it, archers can do it, and even crossbows can do it with feat support. It is logical for us to want to be able to do it with firearms without resorting to 6gp a shot.

On the other hand, the more I read the Gunslinger class, the more convinced I am that the developer wanted the Gunslinger to player like an archer with Vital Strike, hence the "Dead Shot" deed. Dead Shot, Targeting, etc. were meant to be the Gunslinger's answers for the full-attack, but as we all know, they pale in comparison to a simple full-round attack (in a typical round).

I would like to see an official answer to this so that it will prevent future misunderstanding and in the off-chance it works like some of us hope, but I fully expect the official answer to be "once per round".

[leo1925]

Cibulan wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

Cibulan wrote:

Asked another way, does the phrase "can reload a single barrel" mean she can only reload one barrel per round, or only one barrel per free action?

I believe it's the second, it seems kinda stupid to me that an 11th level gunslinger who has the rapid reload feat can't make all of his attacks with a musket.

I can understand why other classes can't make all of their attacks with an early two-handed firearm but i can't understand why gunslingers shouldn't be able to.

I believe this may be a case of player expectations differing from developer expectations. As players, we are used to our PCs being able to full-attack; melee can do it, archers can do it, and even crossbows can do it with feat support. It is logical for us to want to be able to do it with firearms without resorting to 6gp a shot.

No i am not talking about making full attacks without resorting to 6gp a shot, i just want to have some way to make a full attack with a two handed early firearm, without this deed working as i hope it does then there is just no way to make full attacks with a musket.

[Cibulan]

leo1925 wrote:

Cibulan wrote:

leo1925 wrote:

Cibulan wrote:

Asked another way, does the phrase "can reload a single barrel" mean she can only reload one barrel per round, or only one barrel per free action?

I believe it's the second, it seems kinda stupid to me that an 11th level gunslinger who has the rapid reload feat can't make all of his attacks with a musket.

I can understand why other classes can't make all of their attacks with an early two-handed firearm but i can't understand why gunslingers shouldn't be able to.

I believe this may be a case of player expectations differing from developer expectations. As players, we are used to our PCs being able to full-attack; melee can do it, archers can do it, and even crossbows can do it with feat support. It is logical for us to want to be able to do it with firearms without resorting to 6gp a shot.

No i am not talking about making full attacks without resorting to 6gp a shot, i just want to have some way to make a full attack with a two handed early firearm, without this deed working as i hope it does then there is just no way to make full attacks with a musket.

My apologies for misunderstanding; however, there is a way to full-attack with a musket. The Musket Master archetype allows a Gunslinger to load a two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm. Added with Rapid Reload and paper cartridges, you may now full-attack.

You are now paying 6gp per shot (crafting the cartridge yourself).

[Jato Jay]

Bump. I have a gunslinger of my own, and I would love to hear an official ruling on this.

[JustynThyme]

This will never be FAQed or errataed, because the definitions of "once per" and "each" are factually not the same, and the definitions are self-explanatory. "Per", by itself, is defined as "each". The limiter "once" is what changes the meaning. The confusion stems from saying you can only perform a swift action once per round, when we already know how many swift actions we can take in a round, by the definition of swift action. People read that and they try to think of a reason for the redundancy, and end up assuming the limitation also applies outside of the sentence in which it appears.

If Paizo actually meant you could use the deed only once per round, regardless of how far you reduced the reload speed to, they would have stated that you can't reduce the speed of reloading beyond a swift action with that deed, they would have used the same language in reference to both load speeds, they would have put the uses per round of the deed in a separate sentence, or they would have added a clarification in the FAQ. Since the language is not the same, and Paizo has taken zero opportunities to FAQ or errata the deed in the past three years, then it logically follows that the language is correct. The definitions within the language are clear, allowing the reloading of a single barrel of a firearm with that deed and either Rapid Reload or an alchemical cartridge, as many times as your GM allows the taking of free actions in a round.

The only thing a GM can do to stop a gunslinger from utilizing their full attack rate is to limit the number of free actions creatures can take in a round, or houseruling the deed to say "as a free action once per round". Or ban gunslingers.