I'm playing my first alchemist, which looks like it should be fun, and my GM and I were thinking about this. Would the Shatter spell effectively destroy an Alchemist's prepared extracts or mutagens? It would seem like the vials are just plain glass, and even if I specified I used metal vials, they'd still be susceptible to rust, heat, etc. The RAW don't specify that the extracts are destructible, and I realize it'd be easy enough to GM rule that they just aren't, but it's still a niggling little bug. What do you guys think?
It doesn`t seem much different than Wizards` spell-books in terms of destructability.
Spellbooks are an all-in-one go, while the extracts are just specific spells.
If they are kept concealed on your person, they are going to be rather hard to target specifically without Line of Sight/Effect.
If you are Readying to use an Extract/Potion, that would be in open sight, but normally I wouldn`t think they are visible.
It doesn`t seem much different than Wizards` spell-books in terms of destructability.
Spellbooks are an all-in-one go, while the extracts are just specific spells.
If they are kept concealed on your person, they are going to be rather hard to target specifically without Line of Sight/Effect.
If you are Readying to use an Extract/Potion, that would be in open sight, but normally I wouldn`t think they are visible.
It's more the issue of, are extracts destructible at all? Spells aren't, because they don't physically exist, but an Alchemist's extracts are in vials on his/her person. For rules balance, I would say that extracts can't be destroyed, but that involves some logic ignoring.
The extract is essentially a liquid in a vial, so it certainly would be susceptible to the Shatter spell.
That said, Shatter targets one item, so it could target one extract, and the caster is unlikely to be able to know which extract is which.
Giving up an action to cast, as well as a prepared spell (Shatter) to randomly destroy one of an alchemists extracts, if it fails its save, is probably a terrible choice 99% of the time though.
So in other words, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Alchemists do look like fun. I haven't had the opportunity yet, but they are definitely on my list.
Now, looking up the rules for Shatter, it states that it destroys non-magical items. This raises the question, are the extracts I create magical? Are the vials, once filled with an extract, considered magical items? For that matter, are they even items at all?
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Shatter targets *all* non-magical objects (up to 1lb per level) within 5 feet of the point of origin. So you could take out up to 4 alchemists at once!
Now being attended objects I believe the correct procedure is to make a save for each item (all bombs, extracts, mutagens, potions, flasks, etc...) which means earning GM enmity.
Shatter targets *all* non-magical objects (up to 1lb per level) within 5 feet of the point of origin. So you could take out up to 4 alchemists at once!
Now being attended objects I believe the correct procedure is to make a save for each item (all bombs, extracts, mutagens, potions, flasks, etc...) which means earning GM enmity.
You might want to re-read (i believe it has changed some time ago) the shatter spell, the radius option is only working on unattended objects.
Fairly certain RAI is that shatter wouldn't make your alchemist loses acces to any of his extracts or even the bomb vials.
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You might want to re-read (i believe it has changed some time ago) the shatter spell, the radius option is only working on unattended objects.
I'm going to have to guess this is errata, as it's not in my (admittedly 1st printing) of the rule brick.
How is this Shatter Caster getting Line of Sight/Effect to the vials? I would presume they would be carried in individual spell pouch-like holsters, or equivalent, blocking LoS/E just as much as a wall would. If the Shatter Caster has a way around that, such as seeing thru a Familiar which can scamper inside the Alchemists` clothes or `extract pouch`, then I`m liable to let them have at it for having bothered to find a means to target the vials.
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Ooooh. If all the alchemists goodies were piled up in a big sack you could shatter the sack!
I'm going to have to guess this is errata, as it's not in my (admittedly 1st printing) of the rule brick.
Maybe, my corebook is first printing, and I don't have it in front of me, the PFSRD says the following (the emphasis is mine):
Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, non-magical objects; sunders a single solid, non-magical object; or damages a crystalline creature.
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys non-magical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell.
Clothing and packs are not valid barriers against LOE, but if they were then it would take a pair of move actions to retrieve the vial (1 to open the barrier, and another to draw the vial). And remember, Quick Draw does not apply to non-weapons.
And do you think both Line of Sight and Line of Effect are achievable to individual spell components within a Spell Component Pouch? As for the nature of the container, why not say beefy, solid leather holsters (seems reasonable to protect such an object) or even metal holsters? Again, equivalent to spell pouches, drawing components is included in using the extracts just like for spell casting.
And do you think both Line of Sight and Line of Effect are achievable to individual spell components within a Spell Component Pouch?
Oh man, Spark would be so good if that was the case.
If I remember correctly a lot of random very hazardously flamable things are in there, so one small fire and BOOM!
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In fact, the Alchemist rules specifically say that drawing the components of a bomb is part of the action to throw it. You're also forgetting that line of effect is a straight line. A cylinder that's open on top blocks line of effect from the sides, but can still be reached into without "opening" it.
Actually the rules state that Alchemists create and throw their bombs as a standard action. Were I RAW blinded (erm... minded) I would require Alchemists to draw their components as a move action.
You seem to forget that there is no facing in Pathfinder, if there is an open container it is open to attack from all angles.
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And do you think both Line of Sight and Line of Effect are achievable to individual spell components within a Spell Component Pouch?
Absolutely, but as attended objects are now protected from Shatter it's a moot point.
As for the nature of the container, why not say beefy, solid leather holsters (seems reasonable to protect such an object) or even metal holsters? Again, equivalent to spell pouches, drawing components is included in using the extracts just like for spell casting.
Ok, so the glass vials are in open adamant holsters, Shatter would still break them were they unattended.
BTW using extracts is like using a potion, requiring them to be drawn beforehand, not like casting a spell.
In fact, the Alchemist rules specifically say that drawing the components of a bomb is part of the action to throw it. You're also forgetting that line of effect is a straight line. A cylinder that's open on top blocks line of effect from the sides, but can still be reached into without "opening" it.Actually the rules state that Alchemists create and throw their bombs as a standard action. Were I RAW blinded (erm... minded) I would require Alchemists to draw their components as a move action.
You seem to forget that there is no facing in Pathfinder, if there is an open container it is open to attack from all angles.
Not at all -- you would simply be ignoring the rules:
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
You do all three parts as a standard action by the rules, no matter where the components are in fact.
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Not at all -- you would simply be ignoring the rules:
Some would consider this an attack, or bad manners, I realized it's my error for disagreeing with you.
According to my copy of the APG, pg 28 p2 of the Bomb entry it's worded as such: " Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity." Unfortunately this may be a case of the first printings, but by now I'm remembering why I try not to post here often.
Well, Extract components aren't really important, about as much as a wizard losing his spell component pouch. Even less so, because an Alchemist mixes the ingredients when preparing the Extract at the beginning of the day, so they're already used up, so to speak.
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Not at all -- you would simply be ignoring the rules:Some would consider this an attack, or bad manners, I realized it's my error for disagreeing with you.
According to my copy of the APG, pg 28 p2 of the Bomb entry it's worded as such: " Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity." Unfortunately this may be a case of the first printings, but by now I'm remembering why I try not to post here often.
If one is going to discuss rules they should remain up to date on them, and in order to be disagreeing with me I would have had to posted earlier in the thread -- which I haven't done.
An inability to know the rules when combined with an internet suggested smug certainty of superior position doesn't mean the person that proves your position false is attacking you.
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Now, looking up the rules for Shatter, it states that it destroys non-magical items. This raises the question, are the extracts I create magical? Are the vials, once filled with an extract, considered magical items? For that matter, are they even items at all?
Easy enough to find out just by reading the Alchemy listing.
Alchemy (Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist's fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects. In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract. When an alchemist creates an extract or bomb, he infuses the concoction with a tiny fraction of his own magical power—this enables the creation of powerful effects, but also binds the effects to the creator.
An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens. Bombs are explosive splash weapons, and mutagens are transformative elixirs that the alchemist drinks to enhance his physical abilities—both of these are detailed in their own sections below.
So they're pretty clearly stated as magical, and as Shatter doesn't work on magical objects you've got nothing to worry about.
@NotMousse
The erratas are freely available in Paizo store.
Also the PRD is (usually) up to date, so it's a good thing to check something there.
Also i don't know if you have bought the .pdf from the Paizo store but if you did you get a new updated .pdf when errata comes.
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The erratas are a pain in the rear to find. Its like 20 clicks from here IF you don't get lost and you know which book you're looking for.
Well at least it's not 20 klicks from here. And you could always simply search the book name, and click on the link.
Besides it's not like there are not websites that host the rules and all the updates/errata on them with frequent up dates... oh wait... www.d20pfsrd.com
AND if one wants to come on and start busting everyone else for 'not following RAW' then maybe they should actually take the time to be sure they know what is RAW?
Now, looking up the rules for Shatter, it states that it destroys non-magical items. This raises the question, are the extracts I create magical? Are the vials, once filled with an extract, considered magical items? For that matter, are they even items at all?Easy enough to find out just by reading the Alchemy listing.
So they're pretty clearly stated as magical, and as Shatter doesn't work on magical objects you've got nothing to worry about.Alchemy (Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist's fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects. In effect, an alchemist prepares his spells by mixing ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract. When an alchemist creates an extract or bomb, he infuses the concoction with a tiny fraction of his own magical power—this enables the creation of powerful effects, but also binds the effects to the creator.
An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens. Bombs are explosive splash weapons, and mutagens are transformative elixirs that the alchemist drinks to enhance his physical abilities—both of these are detailed in their own sections below.
Yeah, I am pretty sure extracts and mutagens are magical once they are mixed up.
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on a similar note, how would you handle an alchemist being hit with a Mage's Disjunction?
Are all his prepared elixirs, bombs, and mutagens temporary magic items (and thus destroyed), permanent magic items (and thus suppressed for the duration), or ... ?
+1 Morgan... They should still have their Bombs, and Poisons...
I don`t believe they have to re-prepare (the nextg day) extracts that aren`t used, i.e. they don`t have a duration, so should count as permanent items. Don`t quote me on that though :-)