Gotta admit that I really want to play an aasimar paladin for the flavor, however.
Nah. And an aasimar anti-paladin is probably overdone too.
Why not a neutral aasimar merc willing to sell his/her services to the highest bidder? Eventually create your own well-fortified little demiplane, and retire with a treasury of soul gems, a well-stocked-harem, and a handful of liberated modrons to run the brewery/distillery.
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They make amazing sorcerers, clerics or oracles, obviously decent paladins though I'd probably prefer a +2 to strength.
The new favored class rules in the APG have made Human clearly superior to Aasimar for Oracle and Sorcerer. Which would you rather have, a +2 to Wisdom when Will is already your best saving throw or an addtional spell known per level?
Sorry I didn't explain what I meant well:
Lets say you have a tiefling is an evil creature (this particular one at least) and is in the middle of being evil when a cleric of good alignment decides to hit him (and his evil human buddy beside him) with a holy smite:
The human takes 1d8 per two caster levels and has to save to half the damage and avoid blindness.
However the tiefling on the other hand is an outsider... and he is evil -- which means he'll be taking 1d6 per caster level instead of the 1d8 per two caster levels the human is taking -- and to a higher maximum too (10 dice as opposed to 5 dice).
That's what I thought you meant. I didn't even realize such spells COULD banish someone.
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Lets say you have a tiefling is an evil creature (this particular one at least) and is in the middle of being evil when a cleric of good alignment decides to hit him (and his evil human buddy beside him) with a holy smite:
Oh, holy smite, not holy word. Gotcha.
Nah. And an aasimar anti-paladin is probably overdone too.
Overdone to you, maybe. :)
Yeah Holy word generally won't have as much problems.
Please note that Holy Word only banishes extraplanar creatures -- if an outsider finds a way to be on the prime material without also being extraplanar then he will be safe from the banishing effects of Holy Word (same with banishment really).
The real use of Holy word is the chance for other effects... as a side note I could totally see a devil setting up a rival devil to be on the prime material plane to get hit with a Holy Word so that when the rival gets blasted back to Hell he's also suffering from the effects of the Holy Word making him easier to... demote.
Please note that Holy Word only banishes extraplanar creatures -- if an outsider finds a way to be on the prime material without also being extraplanar then he will be safe from the banishing effects of Holy Word (same with banishment really).
That would be impossible. As soon as any creature leaves his home plane, by any means whatsoever, he gains the extraplanar subtype. The only time you don't gain the extraplanar subtype when leaving your home plane is if you go to the astral, etheral, or shadow plane.
But I don't think their problems are as bad as they used to be. Just wish they were humanoids rather than native outsiders.Humanoid (extraplanar) would probably work better for that.
IMO, there have always been too many types.
Elemental should be a subtype of Outsider, and Vermin a subtype of Animal, IMO. Fey and Monstrous Humanoid should probably be subtypes of Humanoid.
3.5 got rid of the 'Beast' type, folding them into animals, and PF got rid of the Giant type, making them a subtype of Humanoid, but I think that this was just trimming some leaves from the over-design, rather than the harsher pruning it needed.
In PF Elementals are a subtype of outsider. And there are enough fey creatures that aren't humanoid in any way that it would be complicated to fold them into humanoid. Fey also traditionally just don't think the way that other sentient creatures do, I think that it takes more than appearance to determine a type.
Same with your animal/vermin comparison. They simply are not alike at all. Humanoids have more in common with most other animals than animals have in common with vermin.
IF we ever do a zero HD race that's something other than a native outsider or humanoid, we'll worry about that then. To date, i'm pretty sure we haven't done any zero HD races that are something other than native outsiders or humanoids. If we have, please let me know and I'll be happy to provide this desperately needed clarification.Yes, that's great, but what about all the other/future 0 HD non-humanoids that are not native outsiders?
Clarification is still needed. When it comes to creatures types, you give them everything, or nothing. The only other options is to have CLEAR INSTRUCTION on where the divide occurs.
All OR nothing OR clear instruction.
Ouch! Talk about talking down to your customers! I just came here to gauge the attitude around Paizo and see if it was any better than WotC. Clearly, it's not.
I get that your feelings are kind of hurt by being accused of bad design, but let's be honest: no one at Paizo put actual design effort into the aasimar. It's just copied over from D&D. (incidentally, that's how I like it) So why get defensive about it?
And while I understand why Paizo felt the need to remove level adjustment, you haven't replaced the system with anything better. Level adjustment may have been a kludge, but at least it was something.
Finally, the reason I post this: in case you haven't noticed, DMs like to create their own races and monsters. Maybe YOU haven't made a zero-HD abberation, but there will be thousands of them out in homebrew land. It's quite reasonable for DMs to assume that the creature type grants all the associated abilities, and I'm sure that's how most people will have been treating their aberrations for homebrew purposes. Your interpretation, that such abilities only come with actual Hit Dice, is counter-intuitive, and not how it's written. And now you jump down your customer's throat when they ask for clarification?
Ouch! Talk about talking down to your customers! I just came here to gauge the attitude around Paizo and see if it was any better than WotC. Clearly, it's not.
Perhaps you should look around a bit more before basing your opinion off of a single post?
I've (what has felt like on my end) ripped Piazo pretty hard just a few weeks ago on (what I feel) was poor editing and design of features found in the APG and received what I felt like was a professional response from a developer looking hard at where improvement might be possible (SKR was the developer that I was talking with).
Ravingdork has a bit of a reputation around here -- he's a regular and as such is a bit more 'familiar' territory for people. I suggest reading some of his other (and older) postings and threads before leaping in at this point.
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Ouch! Talk about talking down to your customers! I just came here to gauge the attitude around Paizo and see if it was any better than WotC. Clearly, it's not.
Perhaps you should look around a bit more before basing your opinion off of a single post?
I've (what has felt like on my end) ripped Piazo pretty hard just a few weeks ago on (what I feel) was poor editing and design of features found in the APG and received what I felt like was a professional response from a developer looking hard at where improvement might be possible (SKR was the developer that I was talking with).
Ravingdork has a bit of a reputation around here -- he's a regular and as such is a bit more 'familiar' territory for people. I suggest reading some of his other (and older) postings and threads before leaping in at this point.
Agreed, let's be fair to James. This is Ravingdork.*
I'd strongly recommend looking at the James Jacobs answers thread for a bigger picture of how the Paizo devs work with their customers. I might not agree with all of their calls but they are still far and away the best about interacting with their community.
*Hell, RD might even agree with that explanation! ;)
Next spring, when the Advanced Race Guide is out, there will be a lot more options and advice for how to handle less powerful and more powerful zero HD races as player character options.
For now, though, those races that show up in Bestiaries are there because they're monsters first. If you allow them as PCs, handle with care.
(One relatively easy way to address the power gap is to grant core races a bonus feat of their choice if you allow other players to play more powerful things like aasimar. Likewise, if you allow a player to play a weaker race in a predominantly core party, you might want to give those goblins or kobolds an extra feat to bring them up to par with the humans and elves.)
Which is pretty much the "PC Boons" option that you provided on page 5 of the Council of Thieves Player's Guide. :)
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Which is pretty much the "PC Boons" option that you provided on page 5 of the Council of Thieves Player's Guide. :)Next spring, when the Advanced Race Guide is out, there will be a lot more options and advice for how to handle less powerful and more powerful zero HD races as player character options.
For now, though, those races that show up in Bestiaries are there because they're monsters first. If you allow them as PCs, handle with care.
(One relatively easy way to address the power gap is to grant core races a bonus feat of their choice if you allow other players to play more powerful things like aasimar. Likewise, if you allow a player to play a weaker race in a predominantly core party, you might want to give those goblins or kobolds an extra feat to bring them up to par with the humans and elves.)
Going the other direction, Infernal Bastard from that same book was really nice as well for bringing Tieflings further in line with the core races. Both approaches together would be dandy to have for mixed parties.
Agreed, let's be fair to James. This is Ravingdork.*
*Hell, RD might even agree with that explanation! ;)
There have been tabletop roleplaying game developers in the past who have told me: "I just wish I could shoot you with tranquilizer darts through the internet. ;)"
(And yes, I was sent a winking smiley face as part of the message.)
So yeeeaah, I have a reputation alright. :P
Meh, Aasi are in no way OP.
Whilst people bang on about TWO MENTAL STATS, one of those is CHA, the most dum-statted stat in the game.
Its like saying they have a free ONE BILLION ZIMBAWE DOLLARS!11!!BBQ!11WT!F!!LULZ!OMG.
So once we get past the sensationalism, we realise the other stat is Wisdom.
Immediatley the race is pretty much only lending itself to a very narrow subset of worthwhile classes.
With Tieflings you have rules to shift around the stats, not so with Aasi.
Whats the most common type of elemental damage? Acid?
Wait you hardly ever come across Acid? Oh well thats a waste.
Electical and Cold are the other two, but no where as good as FIRE for example.
Similarly, there is no real tinkering with favoured classes.
There is a lack of Racial Feats.
It all starts to fall apart pretty quickly.
If the answer to the question of 'Yeah, but would you PLAY one' is 'No', then think before screaming OP.
Even the Tielfing only holds a small lead for maybe a level or two, then everything has shaken out by around 3rd against the other players.
Move along.
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There's only one Material Plane. The universe is big enough to hold pretty much every single campaign setting. So; don't need to handle it at all; someone from Golarion who goes to Eberron is still on their home plane.
The only implication there is that the GM would need to decide which outer plane model is right, and which one has people who have it all wrong. :-)
Noooo!
Regardless of the damage done to the concept by DC and Marvel I am a fan of the multiverse/parallel universes even if it appear very rarely in my games (2 times in thirty years).Placing all the game worlds in the same universe require different "local" physics/magic/whatever rules.
The concept that our rules can be different because there are local effects that we don't jet know is interesting but I generally prefer the "rules are different because the universe is different" approach.
I love Aasimar. They have a few perks like being immune to charm person, hold person[/i[, [i]dominate person, and even the blinding beauty ability of the nymph. But those are very specific situations that don't come up too often.
I play a ton of Aasimar because I like playing beautiful angelic looking races. Sometimes their little race perks come up. But rarely are so they so powerful as to make them unplayable or massively outshine other races.
The game is still mainly about stats and class abilities. Small racial perks rarely allow one race to defeat another if the perks are as small as those gained by Aasimar or Tieflings. I don't see any balance problems. I allow both races as well as all the plane-touched races, Dhampyr, and the like in our games. Hasn't been any problem at all. And has only enriched our character creation process and provided inspiration for interesting backgrounds.
The game is still mainly about stats and class abilities. Small racial perks rarely allow one race to defeat another if the perks are as small as those gained by Aasimar or Tieflings. I don't see any balance problems. I allow both races as well as all the plane-touched races, Dhampyr, and the like in our games. Hasn't been any problem at all. And has only enriched our character creation process and provided inspiration for interesting backgrounds.
This.
I wasn't aware there was that much of a concern with things being marginally out of balance that would cause people to come with breathy urgency and shrill cry of balance over fairly minor differences. Especially when they want to get VERY selective and only look at one element of the class without considering it holistically.
I changed the races slightly, making them more human and at the same time more formidable, if more restricted, than humans.
Basically they are human with restricted ability score increases to choose from without the bonus feat
In exchange they get some resistances, skill bonus on 2 skills and darkvision
Add a number of traits and feats specifically for Aasimar and tieflings, allowing them access to spell-like abilities and other typical outsiders traits, Native outsider and several spell like abilities are traits. These feats tend to be slightly more powerful than other feats and traits, but build on other feats and traits and are of limited focus, with feats building on specific ancestory or background, barring access to similar feats of other ancestory and backgrounds.
I also removed fiendish sorcery from tiefling, but added the option to take a +2 on charisma.
Aasimar:
humanoid type (human)
+ 2 to either strength, wisdom or charisma
resist cold, electricity, acid 5
+ 2 perception and diplomacy
darkvision
+1 skill point per level
Tiefling:
humanoid type (human)
+2 to either dexterity, intelligence or charisma
resist fire, cold and electricty 5
+ 2 bluff and stealth
darkvision
+1 skill point per level
I had been thinking of adding the 'template' to other core races, so you could have an elven tiefling, most likely it would require replacing a single ability bonus with one of the above to a max of +2 to an ability score to start, and giving up a feat, also they wouldn't get the additional skill points I noted above.
An elf tiefling could for instance replace bonus to intelligence with charisma and sacrifice their first feat for the resistances, darkvision and bonus to bluff and stealth, as well as getting access to tiefling specific traits and feats.
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.
There's only one Material Plane. The universe is big enough to hold pretty much every single campaign setting. So; don't need to handle it at all; someone from Golarion who goes to Eberron is still on their home plane.
The only implication there is that the GM would need to decide which outer plane model is right, and which one has people who have it all wrong. :-)
Well in Pathfinder there might not be alternate planes, that doesn't hold true for all campaign settings. So you can't really officially say that Eberron exists in the same plane as Golarion, since you don't own Eberron. I, for one play it different. No offense is meant by this statement, I hope you realize, it just seems that was a silly thing for you to say.
That's what I thought James. I didn't think planetouched had it any worse when planeswalking. Thanks for the clarification.Sorry I didn't explain what I meant well:
Lets say you have a tiefling is an evil creature (this particular one at least) and is in the middle of being evil when a cleric of good alignment decides to hit him (and his evil human buddy beside him) with a holy smite:
The human takes 1d8 per two caster levels and has to save to half the damage and avoid blindness.
However the tiefling on the other hand is an outsider... and he is evil -- which means he'll be taking 1d6 per caster level instead of the 1d8 per two caster levels the human is taking -- and to a higher maximum too (10 dice as opposed to 5 dice).
You don't even need holy smite to hurt an evil native outsider--as written, simple holy water will sting. On the other hand, I like the mental image of an evil-aligned aasimar being burned by holy water. ;)
These things can be problematic, but there's an easy way out for PC tieflings and aasimar when allowed---simply make a neutrally aligned one. :) Of course, that restricts your roleplaying options. But what I'm getting at is that since tieflings and aasimar are not restricted to a specific alignment, which spells and special items affect them may vary. It can suck, but it's very, very circumstantial---and I would say in a given campaign, you're probably more likely to be targeted by hold person (which all planetouched are immune to regardless of alignment) than holy smite (which will only affect evil aligned ones).
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.
You've got a few options without changing/adding rules:
1. Add the fiendish or celestial template to humanoid of your choice. Yes, that will boost their power level, but so will adding any template.2. Take 1 level of celestial, abyssal, or infernal sorcerer. This one level will alter your physical appearance slightly and give you spells and abilities concordant with your heritage.
Finally, while I realize the official fluff states tieflings and aasimar have human heritage, there's really not a big reason why they HAVE to. You could refluff them to have whatever heritage you want; for gnomes and halflings simply make them Small with all the bonuses and penalties therein.
I realize this may not be what you're looking for, but it can be done.
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.Actually I would see it as having the opposite effect. Asimar's are mary-sue enough as it is, the notion of asimar elves greatly disturbs my biological functions.
Other thing to remember is that Asimar are not Humans, so they don't get all of the Human benies like the extra feat. Making them as a template would actually be a power bump compared to both how they are now and the races being templated. unless a new minus was put into the package.
There is n written rule a template has to boost power, tieflings and aasimar basically are humans though, with maybe a trace of celestial or fiendish blood or influenced by celestial powers.
They are likely to have two human parents, though not necesarily, an aasimar born from two human parrents would not have extra skill points or an additional feat, that strikes me as somewhat weird, aasimar and tieflings do not have much flavor of their own anyway and mixing it into a racial background makes them that much more interesting
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.Actually I would see it as having the opposite effect. Asimar's are mary-sue enough as it is, the notion of asimar elves greatly disturbs my biological functions.
Other thing to remember is that Asimar are not Humans, so they don't get all of the Human benies like the extra feat. Making them as a template would actually be a power bump compared to both how they are now and the races being templated. unless a new minus was put into the package.
There is n written rule a template has to boost power, tieflings and aasimar basically are humans though, with maybe a trace of celestial or fiendish blood or influenced by celestial powers.
They are likely to have two human parents, though not necesarily, an aasimar born from two human parrents would not have extra skill points or an additional feat, that strikes me as somewhat weird, aasimar and tieflings do not have much flavor of their own anyway and mixing it into a racial background makes them that much more interesting
How would you design a celestial/fiendish template that DIDN'T boost power? I am not asking rhetorically, I want to know how you'd do this.
Take a human. She gets +1 skill point a level, a bonus feat, and an ability score bonus with no penalties. Simple, but in its own way, powerful and versatile.
Add a template to that that even JUST adds a single feature of a planetouched creature--a single drop of energy resistance, a spell-like ability, an additional ability score bonus--that human+template will be more powerful than just a human.
The only way you can balance that is to trade off abilities--trade the feat FOR racial resistances, for example. But do that enough--and you're back to something that's identical to the planetouched as a separate race.
I would suggest that if you wanted to allow people to reflect planar heritage in their background but didn't want to boost their CR---the easiest thing to do would be use the Trait System. Everybody gets traits, everybody gets the same power boost. But you can use them to fluff your character in a versatile way--that SLA you got from a trait, maybe that's from your planar heritage. Or vice versa--create a tiefling, for example, but get permission to take elven race traits, to reflect a non-human heritage.
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.Actually I would see it as having the opposite effect. Asimar's are mary-sue enough as it is, the notion of asimar elves greatly disturbs my biological functions.
Other thing to remember is that Asimar are not Humans, so they don't get all of the Human benies like the extra feat. Making them as a template would actually be a power bump compared to both how they are now and the races being templated. unless a new minus was put into the package.
Well there are two "balanced" ways to handle this. If a player came to me with the desire to be an aasimar/elf or teifling/halfling, or ifrit/gnome or whatever, I'd suggest the following options:
- Option A) Traits: I would work with them to develop traits so that their gnome or elf or whathave you has some markings of the appropriate race but is still in line with other races.
- Option B) Racial "Archetypes": If they just REALLY needed to play a Celestial Gnome or whatever we'd make work out (with the DM being the final arbiter) an archetype aproach. Ok your elf wants Darkvision from Aasimar? Gonna lose Low-light and that secret door ability since you dont ahve standard elf senses. Want the racials of the Aasimar? lost that dex bonus. Energy resist? there goes that weapon training. etc..
It isn't perfect, but if anything the Archetype craze has taught me, is that trade offs are player heaven. Give them what they want (to be an angelic elf...*shudder*) but make it balanced. I recently had a player come to me with a monk that wanted to combine like 3 archetypes that were by the rules allowable. I went with it (Though he only ended up taking 2). If something shows to be too unbalanced I'll make a ruling and everyones ok with that...
That's what I thought James. I didn't think planetouched had it any worse when planeswalking. Thanks for the clarification.Sorry I didn't explain what I meant well:
Lets say you have a tiefling is an evil creature (this particular one at least) and is in the middle of being evil when a cleric of good alignment decides to hit him (and his evil human buddy beside him) with a holy smite:
The human takes 1d8 per two caster levels and has to save to half the damage and avoid blindness.
However the tiefling on the other hand is an outsider... and he is evil -- which means he'll be taking 1d6 per caster level instead of the 1d8 per two caster levels the human is taking -- and to a higher maximum too (10 dice as opposed to 5 dice).
You don't even need holy smite to hurt an evil native outsider--as written, simple holy water will sting. On the other hand, I like the mental image of an evil-aligned aasimar being burned by holy water. ;)
These things can be problematic, but there's an easy way out for PC tieflings and aasimar when allowed---simply make a neutrally aligned one. :) Of course, that restricts your roleplaying options. But what I'm getting at is that since tieflings and aasimar are not restricted to a specific alignment, which spells and special items affect them may vary. It can suck, but it's very, very circumstantial---and I would say in a given campaign, you're probably more likely to be targeted by hold person (which all planetouched are immune to regardless of alignment) than holy smite (which will only affect evil aligned ones).
Probably depends on the campaign -- Council of Thieves we were running into unholy smite and the like a lot more than hold person, and if you are playing a good native outsider the problem still arises (though in the opposite direction). Considering that charm monster is 3rd level as is suggestion I see more of these spells used than Hold Person (in fact I never see Hold Person used in pathfinder... I might suggest to my group we return it to it's first edition version of affecting one person at a -2 to the save throw, 2 people at a -1 to the save throw or up to four people with no penalty on the save throw while still leaving in the save every round clause).
There are a couple of other such effects that matter too outsider(aligned) bane weapons for example (though I would allow a ranger to take outsider(native) as his favored enemy) or a paladin/anti-paladin's smite. Also it means playing simply neutral to avoid it as there is also chaos hammer to consider as well (hope you don't want to play a monk).
Now can such situations be avoided? Yes... but it is something to remember, because if it isn't avoided it can cause significant issues for the native outsider.
EDIT: So a native outsider is immune to two spells... and possibly vunerable to several more other spells (though he doesn't have to be). Considering what the spells involved are I would call it a wash myself.
The only thing I would change is there type to Humaniod(planetouched)
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.Actually I would see it as having the opposite effect. Asimar's are mary-sue enough as it is, the notion of asimar elves greatly disturbs my biological functions.
Lately however he's been getting into a streak of posts that are at best borderline abusive.
What's so "borderline abusive" about my posts?
Me thinks you have an axe to grind. Your targeting me does not promote this thread's discussion or any other.
The only thing I would change is there type to Humaniod(planetouched)
This is how I have handled it in my campaigns.
In fact, I don't bother with the Native and Extraplanar subtypes at all. The rule is simple: if you're on your home plane, you cannot be banished. Subtypes just seem to be a needless extra layer of complexity.
Jawsh you're new here. Otherwise you'd be quite aware that the Dork is infamous for a variety of reasons. Originally his posts were excessive calls for errata relating to extreme misuses of the system. He'd talk about extreme situations on game tables that never existed as if they'd actually happened, and if his request for suggested errata were included it would turn the Core Rules book into a work the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Lately however he's been getting into a streak of posts that are at best borderline abusive.
Quite frankly, the folks at Paizo have been extremely patient and tolerant and if you read more of RD's post you'd realise how much so.
Fair enough. I don't necessarily want to be Ravingdork's white knight. But one person's extreme misuses might be another person's reasonable and correct interpretation.
And what has Paizo done with the rules, if not update, improve, and errata? It's true that they were put in a difficult spot with having to take a kind of custody of the d20 system, but they claimed to be making improvements. I don't know, maybe they aren't actually in the business of improving the rules.
I don't mean to be accusing with that statement either. I think it's a legitimate stance for a gaming company to say "we don't care about the rules, we just want to tell a cool story" But for that, the entire Pathfinder revision wasn't really necessary. And it gives players the wrong impression.
Humanoid (extraplanar) would probably work better for that.
But they're not extraplanar.
Elemental should be a subtype of Outsider
You mean "is", right? Because that it's how it is in PF :P
and Vermin a subtype of Animal, IMO.
I could get either way here. The mindless part and darkvision rather than low-light vision are the two big differences between the crawly critters and animals.
Fey and Monstrous Humanoid should probably be subtypes of Humanoid.
That I can't agree with. Monstrous humanoids are different enough from humanoids to be their own thing.
And fey are not humanoids. A lot of them might be humanoid-shaped, but they don't have to be. And there is more to being humanoid than shape. Fey definitely aren't humanoids within, where it counts.
Same with your animal/vermin comparison. They simply are not alike at all.
Vermin are animals in real life
Vermin are animals in real life
So are humans. :)
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I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.
Hey hey hey... let's not go messing with humanity's real signature boon - the ability to get our freak on with just about anything that breathes (and some that don't).
I've never really found a problem with Aasimar being unbalanced from a rules perspective - they make decent paladins, but their bump in that area isn't really that OP. At least not half as much of some of the stuff you can do with Tiefling bards or sorcerers via the Bastards of Erebus rules (+4 CHA at first level, all my spells' save DCs bumped up by 2? Yes plz).
I had fun playing an Aasimar obsessive undead-hunting paladin of the Raven Queen (very similar to Pharasma) - he was constantly up to his elbows in rotting muck and zombie slime, stomping around in sewers and barrows and graveyards trying to look grim and serious and driven despite the whole cherubic/angelic vibe.
I too would really love to see Aasimar and Tiefling as templates applicable to any PC race. Why should humans get all the fun? Plus, it would reduce the number of PC-race/hint-of-outsider-race combos which had turned up by late 3.x.Hey hey hey... let's not go messing with humanity's real signature boon - the ability to get our freak on with just about anything that breathes (and some that don't).
Yeah, humans are almost like dragons in that regard.
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Ouch! Talk about talking down to your customers! I just came here to gauge the attitude around Paizo and see if it was any better than WotC. Clearly, it's not.
It does sound a bit weird - what James said there could be considered a bit condescending.
But you need to be fair here. As someone from Paizo, he can't just put people on ignore.
And some people have a certain effect on other people.
And while I understand why Paizo felt the need to remove level adjustment, you haven't replaced the system with anything better. Level adjustment may have been a kludge, but at least it was something.
Actually, they were useless. Why leave something useless in? The LA system just didn't work. It was bad. You don't copy something bad.
They're working on a book full all about player character races, which will include information about playing all kinds of critters. They didn't want to do a half-assed job about it, and they didn't want to clutter the Bestiary with PC information.
Finally, the reason I post this: in case you haven't noticed, DMs like to create their own races and monsters.
I'm a DM and I'm not too keen on either.
Maybe YOU haven't made a zero-HD abberation
They definitely haven't done it.
, but there will be thousands of them out in homebrew land.
Thousands, eh? There aren't thousands of aberrations of any HD out there.
Plus, those GMs are keen on churning out 0HD critters by the dozen but don't want to decide which parts of the creature type carry over?
This is a very selective kind of creative drive, you know :P
Your interpretation, that such abilities only come with actual Hit Dice, is counter-intuitive, and not how it's written.
Well, it's not written at all, there being no 0HD aberrations.
And now you jump down your customer's throat when they ask for clarification?
We're talking about a guy who admits to flame-baiting as a way to get attention for his posts. He elicits that kind of reaction.
But you're making a good argument for getting disruptive elements permanently banned: They wind up the developers, which can't ignore people, until it becomes too much and they make a less-than-perfect comment (Paizo is people and people aren't perfect).
Then, other people, who don't know those disruptive elements, just think Paizo is rude, and they stop buying.
So, you're saying that in order to avoid huge losses, Paizo should ban the guy? You're pretty heartless! ;-P
Meh, Aasi are in no way OP.
Whilst people bang on about TWO MENTAL STATS, one of those is CHA, the most dum-statted stat in the game.
Its like saying they have a free ONE BILLION ZIMBAWE DOLLARS!11!!BBQ!11WT!F!!LULZ!OMG.
So once we get past the sensationalism, we realise the other stat is Wisdom.
Immediatley the race is pretty much only lending itself to a very narrow subset of worthwhile classes.
With Tieflings you have rules to shift around the stats, not so with Aasi.
Whats the most common type of elemental damage? Acid?
Wait you hardly ever come across Acid? Oh well thats a waste.
Electical and Cold are the other two, but no where as good as FIRE for example.
What, you're stealing my material now? ;-P
Well in Pathfinder there might not be alternate planes, that doesn't hold true for all campaign settings. So you can't really officially say that Eberron exists in the same plane as Golarion, since you don't own Eberron. I, for one play it different. No offense is meant by this statement, I hope you realize, it just seems that was a silly thing for you to say.There's only one Material Plane. The universe is big enough to hold pretty much every single campaign setting. So; don't need to handle it at all; someone from Golarion who goes to Eberron is still on their home plane.
The only implication there is that the GM would need to decide which outer plane model is right, and which one has people who have it all wrong. :-)
What he says that as far as Paizo is concerned, different worlds are simply different planets in the Material Plane. Even Earth is in there.
Sure, he can't officially say where Eberron is, and you can rule it however you like, but that's how he sees things.
Vermin are animals in real lifeSo are humans. :)
But unlike the Arthropods, we get the paragon template ;)
Aasimars and tieflings are pretty garbage. Adding a penalty (especially Con!) to aasimars would be horrible. They have useless SLAs, and energy resistance 5 is pretty lackluster. A lot of DMs think it is overpowered, and so specifically avoid hitting those characters with those energies. Thus, you have the same problem rangers have. Do you really have an ability if the DM never lets it come into play?
Give me my human bonus feat any day.
I don't know, a lot of the alternate Teifling races are pretty optimal.
The only thing I would change is there type to Humaniod(planetouched)This is how I have handled it in my campaigns.
In fact, I don't bother with the Native and Extraplanar subtypes at all. The rule is simple: if you're on your home plane, you cannot be banished. Subtypes just seem to be a needless extra layer of complexity.
I kind of like the idea of races that are likely to end up as PC's being humanoid. It keeps all the charm/enlarge,etc person spells logical. With that said, I like that Paizo kept the Beastiery for monsters, not PCs.
PS - Jawsh, while it may seem rude, I would say it is more a case of familiarity, and not hostility. Ravingdork is known around here for pushing the limits of the rules, and finding problems that might not come up for most people. Sometimes this rubs people the wrong way, but it is done with the intention of refining the rules, not "winning at Pathfinder". I'll let the Paizo folks speak for themselves, but I will say they put up with a lot, A REAL LOT, and still manage to be more civil then any other company representatives I've seen on the internet in any field.
And while I understand why Paizo felt the need to remove level adjustment, you haven't replaced the system with anything better. Level adjustment may have been a kludge, but at least it was something.
Actually, they were useless. Why leave something useless in? The LA system just didn't work. It was bad. You don't copy something bad.They're working on a book full all about player character races, which will include information about playing all kinds of critters. They didn't want to do a half-assed job about it, and they didn't want to clutter the Bestiary with PC information.
There's a bit of a difference between not working at all, and being bad, or poor design. Level adjustments did work. I played with them in my games. They weren't always perfectly balanced, but the system sufficed. We even made some really fun monster classes that my group had a blast playing.
And this I don't get: of all the wacky things in 3rd Edition, things that kind of sort of worked, but could have been balanced better, why pick on Level Adjustment to completely remove? It's not like it takes up a lot of space. "Level Adjustment +1" takes up one line.
I am looking forward to seeing what Paizo does with their new monster-PCs book, but I'm skeptical as to whether they can produce something as balanced and simple as Level Adjustment.
Finally, the reason I post this: in case you haven't noticed, DMs like to create their own races and monsters.
I'm a DM and I'm not too keen on either.
We can go in circles now, because I have one style, and you have another. However, I think I can confidently assert that I'm not the only DM who creates his own races and monsters. Maybe you don't, but many do. Also, let me ask you this: have you ever had a player in your gaming group who made his own race to play? Because I've had two or three who made up races whole-cloth, not to mention about half a dozen who tweaked existing races.
Maybe YOU haven't made a zero-HD abberationThey definitely haven't done it.
, but there will be thousands of them out in homebrew land.Thousands, eh? There aren't thousands of aberrations of any HD out there.
I beg to differ. Unless we're only counting post-Pathfinder material. But if you look at Wizards + 3rd party material + websites + people's homebrew material, you will literally find thousands of aberrations. I'm not saying they're all quality work; all I'm saying is that they exist.
Plus, those GMs are keen on churning out 0HD critters by the dozen but don't want to decide which parts of the creature type carry over?This is a very selective kind of creative drive, you know :P
There seem to be published guidelines regarding how to make monsters. If you have the desire to make monsters, and you want to do a good job, you will seek out guidelines. These are the written guidelines: Features rely on Hit Dice. Traits you get automatically. But if Paizo wants to change how this works, it would be nice if they could be transparent about it.
Your interpretation, that such abilities only come with actual Hit Dice, is counter-intuitive, and not how it's written.
Well, it's not written at all, there being no 0HD aberrations.
Aberrations is a corner case of a larger issue. Even though I think it is an actual need. But if there was an actual clarification, it would apply to all creature types with 0 HD. Not just aberrations.
There's a bit of a difference between not working at all, and being bad, or poor design. Level adjustments did work.
So did the first version of Windows 95. It was working. It just wasn't working at all well.
And this I don't get: of all the wacky things in 3rd Edition, things that kind of sort of worked, but could have been balanced better, why pick on Level Adjustment to completely remove? It's not like it takes up a lot of space. "Level Adjustment +1" takes up one line.
It may not take a lot of place, but as I explained already, it would be "just" one line of crap to make the whole page stink.
Level adjustments were considered crap - by Paizo and tons and tons of 3e players - so they left it out rather than have it in.
They didn't want to do a half-assed job to put a player resource into a GM book, so they left it out in favour of a later book - which has already been announced, by the way.
I am looking forward to seeing what Paizo does with their new monster-PCs book, but I'm skeptical as to whether they can produce something as balanced and simple as Level Adjustment.
Not without drinking heavily and taking lots of drugs. Because "as balanced as LA" would mean "quite crappy and only really useful for very special cases."
The system was even deliberately overcharging in several situations to discourage players. What's so balanced about that? "Let's give vampires LA+8 so nobody will want to play one!"
We can go in circles now, because I have one style, and you have another.
Okay, we can do that: My style doesn't work with LA, because it just didn't work.
Guess what: Paizo caters to my style. :P
Probably because that my style is the same as most people's style.
Also, let me ask you this: have you ever had a player in your gaming group who made his own race to play?
No. I never even had one who attempted this. Not that I would have allowed it.
I beg to differ. Unless we're only counting post-Pathfinder material. But if you look at Wizards + 3rd party material + websites + people's homebrew material, you will literally find thousands of aberrations.
I'm going to need proof of that. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count.