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Okay the main question is when you are falling, what part of the action do you fall in?
Here is the situation.
The Druid is crossing a swaying rope bridge. He fails his Acrobatics check to not fall. Then he fails his Reflex save to catch himself. So I have him fall into the river 150 below as part of his Move action. He wants to take his Standard action to Wildshape (a Super Natural ability) into a bird during the fall. At first I don't let him, but following a lot of complaining I gave in and let him do it.
Now from what I can gather from the message boards and rules is that you fall about 500 feet the first round since you cannot cast a spell during a fall unless the fall is more than 500 feet.
I believe he should have fallen during his Move action, since that is the action that triggered the fall (and the distance fallen would be less than required for a Full Round of falling). This would have had him fall into the river and then he would get his Standard action.
I also feel that it is similar to the rules for Attacks of Opportunity against someone standing up. You cannot Trip an opponent as part of the AoO because during the action of standing the character is still prone, and you cannot trip a prone character.
So, with that, when does the fall happen? Remember the round is broken into either Move, Standard, or Full-Round Actions (I doubt Free or Immediate actions would apply here- but anything is possible I suppose).
And BTW the fall would not have killed him.
I am pretty sure you can't take a standard action to interrupt an event even if it is your turn.
That gives me an idea for a feat:
You are able to assume alternate forms in the blink of an eye.
Prerequisite Spell Focus (transmutation)
Benefit You may expend an additional use of an ability or spell that changes your shape per a spell of the polymorph subschool to change shape as an immediate action instead of the normal action required. If you use a spell to do this, you may expend a different spell so long as both the spell cast and the additional spell expended both allow you to change into the desired shape (e.g. casting beast shape I and expending beast shape II to cast beast shape I as an immediate action).
There's already a feat to allow Druids to Wild Shape as a move or swift action by 'downgrading' their effective druid level for purposes of what shapes they can access.
As for the situation in the original question, I'd have allowed it, but they would have to have succeeded on a Concentration check, as Wild Shape is essentially casting a spell.
As for what part of the action you fall in, I'd say the entire portion of the turn that you spent falling. Gravity is a sort of forced movement, so falling would not count against your movement for a turn, letting you perform an action simultaneously to your fall.
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Okay the main question is when you are falling, what part of the action do you fall in?
The Druid is crossing a swaying rope bridge. He fails his Acrobatics check to not fall. Then he fails his Reflex save to catch himself. So I have him fall into the river 150 below as part of his Move action.
As a rule of thumb a falling character falls 500 feet in the first round and 1500 feet per round after that. This isn't exact, but it's close (150 lbs takes 4.9 seconds to travel 400 feet) and it's easier to do the math in your head. This isn't an official rule, but it was created by Keith Baker (I believe) and was supported by WotC.
Falling isn't a move action. It isn't even a free action. Falling is just an instantaneous thing that happens to you. You don't even provoke when falling. But, if you use that guideline I just talked about, you do have a maximum distance you can fall per round.
He wants to take his Standard action to Wildshape (a Super Natural ability) into a bird during the fall. At first I don't let him, but following a lot of complaining I gave in and let him do it.
He can't spend a standard action in the amount of time it takes to fall 150 feat because falling is an instant effect. The only actions you can take while falling are free or immediate actions. But falling doesn't actually take place in the action economy.
I believe he should have fallen during his Move action, since that is the action that triggered the fall (and the distance fallen would be less than required for a Full Round of falling). This would have had him fall into the river and then he would get his Standard action.
Again, falling doesn't take place during an action. But it does end the triggering action. So in this case he was taking a move action when he began to fall. Falling ends his move action. He still gets his remaining actions.
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Okay the main question is when you are falling, what part of the action do you fall in?
The Druid is crossing a swaying rope bridge. He fails his Acrobatics check to not fall. Then he fails his Reflex save to catch himself. So I have him fall into the river 150 below as part of his Move action.
As a rule of thumb a falling character falls 500 feet in the first round and 1500 feet per round after that. This isn't exact, but it's close (150 lbs takes 4.9 seconds to travel 400 feet) and it's easier to do the math in your head. This isn't an official rule, but it was created by Keith Baker (I believe) and was supported by WotC.
Falling isn't a move action. It isn't even a free action. Falling is just an instantaneous thing that happens to you. You don't even provoke when falling. But, if you use that guideline I just talked about, you do have a maximum distance you can fall per round.
He wants to take his Standard action to Wildshape (a Super Natural ability) into a bird during the fall. At first I don't let him, but following a lot of complaining I gave in and let him do it.He can't spend a standard action in the amount of time it takes to fall 150 feat because falling is an instant effect. The only actions you can take while falling are free or immediate actions. But falling doesn't actually take place in the action economy.
Again, falling doesn't take place during an action. But it does end the triggering action. So in this case he was taking a move action when he began to fall. Falling ends his move action. He still gets his remaining actions.
I believe he should have fallen during his Move action, since that is the action that triggered the fall (and the distance fallen would be less than required for a Full Round of falling). This would have had him fall into the river and then he would get his Standard action.
Thanks. And per the PRD you fall 500 feet in the first round and 1000 feet in subsequent rounds.
Since the PRD states that you cannot cast a spell during falling unless it is an Instant cast, I would interpret that along the lines of what you are saying that you don't get an action (except an Instant action) during a fall. And yeah I sort of was mentally treating it as "the fall ends his Move action, now on to the move action).
But I really like the description more as a triggering effect and not being in the action economy. That just makes the most "rules" sense to me.
Now, I am in no way a killer GM and my favorite line is if it is cool then do it. In all honesty had the fall been more than 250 feet I would have allowed him to Wildshape because it would have been cool.
I do find this interesting. Any more comments are more than welcomed since it has already helped me with some other ideas and situations.
Thanks. And per the PRD you fall 500 feet in the first round and 1000 feet in subsequent rounds.
I didn't realize that pathfinder had added such a rule. 1000 feet per round is more accurate (200 lbs would fall 1000 feet in 7.9 seconds). Thanks for pointing it out.
... if it is cool then do it. In all honesty had the fall been more than 250 feet I would have allowed him to Wildshape because it would have been cool.
The rule of cool is a great ...tool? No wait, let me rephrase that. The rule of cool is an excellent utility. Yeah...yeah that works.
I do find this interesting. Any more comments are more than welcomed since it has already helped me with some other ideas and situations.
I wish I had more to add, but sadly, falling in D&D isn't all that well thought out. At tenth level your barbarian can make multiple successive swan dives from 100 feet, gaining a nice face full of cobblestones, and he won't even care. Hell, in my games I use maximized falling damage, and the barbarian can still do it even then.
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Point of interest... How many G's does Galarion possess? Judging from their art I'd say it's about .4 G, thus allowing for greater leaps, slow falls, gravity defying structures, and larger, perkier mammaries.
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Point of interest... How many G's does Galarion possess? Judging from their art I'd say it's about .4 G, thus allowing for greater leaps, slow falls, gravity defying structures, and larger, perkier mammaries.
The implausible attractiveness of even the most dour iconic is due to the wide proliferation of transmutation magic over Golarion. So many transmuters caught on the obvious idea of using magic to make people look better that the magic saturates the planet.
The next AP will be a quest to track down and stop a prudish transmuter that is attempting to undo the effect and return everyone to average or below average appearance.
Point of interest... How many G's does Galarion possess? Judging from their art I'd say it's about .4 G, thus allowing for greater leaps, slow falls, gravity defying structures, and larger, perkier mammaries.The implausible attractiveness of even the most dour iconic is due to the wide proliferation of transmutation magic over Golarion. So many transmuters caught on the obvious idea of using magic to make people look better that the magic saturates the planet.
The next AP will be a quest to track down and stop a prudish transmuter that is attempting to undo the effect and return everyone to average or below average appearance.
NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
(150 lbs takes 4.9 seconds to travel 400 feet)
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(200 lbs would fall 1000 feet in 7.9 seconds)
Can I ask where you're getting these numbers? Are they based on drag due to air resistance for a roughly human-sized body?
It depends on how much physics you want in your magic.
The rules state that you can't cast a spell (a standard action) while falling less than 500 feet. It seems reasonable that you can't normally take actions requiring a standard action while falling either. I will state it does seem kinda brutal to fall 500 feet essentially before you can do anything but its probably the easiest way to rule.
I'm assuming 1g no drag for ease of computation, it will take 3.1 seconds. If we assume that in a six second turn, both the move action and standard action take 1/2 of the turn, its not unreasonable to think you could take a standard action during that turn. A three second fall is about 140 ft. So, let's say it can be done. He is now 10 feet off the river falling at about 65 miles per hour and 0.1 second from impact. Methinks he would be better served to turn into a trout.
Now if the fall is 400, 450 or even 500 feet it starts to seem more plausible that a druid could finish wild shaping and be able to pull out of a nose dive. But it all relies on how quickly the shape change takes effect, how quickly the druid can reorient himself, and how long it takes to pull out of the dive. After a 400 foot fall the druid would falling at 110 miles per hour. Even the most aerobatic of birds would take some time to pull out of such a steep dive. That's a lot of variables that we really don't know. Why don't we just call it 500 feet for ease.
I see an awful lot of time spent calculating, followed by rounds of "yeah but" and grasping at straws, only to end up with no solid answer. I'd rule that while he probably could turn into a bird about time of impact, it wouldn't do any good. If the fall was 505 feet he could wildshape and on the following round with a DC 10 fly check avoid damage from the fall. The fall of 150 feet described above is just too short.
So I have him fall into the river 150 below as part of his Move action
-I think that's the problem. You are allowed to interrupt your own move action, say if you're walking towards the big bad guy thats 45 feet away. You decide to double move.
15 feet into the move you're stabbed by his invisible body guard. You can change your mind , stop moving and use your (as of yet unused) standard action to attack.
Now i am NOT suggesting that he can refuse to take a move action and not fall, just pointing out that his falling does not change the fact that he still has a standard action to take. There's no reason, raw wise, that said standard action couldn't be turning into a bird. The standard action itself exists in zero time , during the players turn. He should be able to act. Standard actions normally can't be taken during move actions , but falling isn't an action. He ends his move ACTION (but not his downward movement) when he wants and performs his standard action when he wants.
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I'm reminded of casting Reverse Gravity on a bunch of mooks, and then sitting down to figure out how far they would fall. After my calculations, I decided that Reverse Gravity is pretty much an instant-win button by the time you can cast it. At 13th level, the earliest a wizard can cast it, it lasts 13 rounds = 78 seconds.
Distance fallen is given by 0.5 times the acceleration (9.81 m/s^2) times the time squared. 0.5 * 9.81 * (78^2) = 29,842 m
So at 13th level, someone you cast Reverse Gravity on falls approximately 30 km straight up....and then when the spell ends they fall 30 km straight down.
Yeah, it's true that there's a 20d6 cap on falling damage, but at those distances it should be hand-waved away as just flat out killing the target, much like any sane GM would do if a character leaped off a cliff and fell 30 km normally. Hell, even if you don't allow for the insta-death, it rids you of the target for 26 rounds...in other words you can finish off whatever other bad guys are around, dress your wounds, prepare a few buffs, and then take out the greatly weakened target once it splats down.
Did I mention there's no save and SR doesn't apply?
I'm reminded of casting Reverse Gravity on a bunch of mooks, and then sitting down to figure out how far they would fall. After my calculations, I decided that Reverse Gravity is pretty much an instant-win button by the time you can cast it. At 13th level, the earliest a wizard can cast it, it lasts 13 rounds = 78 seconds.
Distance fallen is given by 0.5 times the acceleration (9.81 m/s^2) times the time squared. 0.5 * 9.81 * (78^2) = 29,842 m
So at 13th level, someone you cast Reverse Gravity on falls approximately 30 km straight up....and then when the spell ends they fall 30 km straight down.
Yeah, it's true that there's a 20d6 cap on falling damage, but at those distances it should be hand-waved away as just flat out killing the target, much like any sane GM would do if a character leaped off a cliff and fell 30 km normally. Hell, even if you don't allow for the insta-death, it rids you of the target for 26 rounds...in other words you can finish off whatever other bad guys are around, dress your wounds, prepare a few buffs, and then take out the greatly weakened target once it splats down.
Did I mention there's no save and SR doesn't apply?
Where do you get 30 km out of "up to one 10-ft. cube/level"?
So at 13th level, someone you cast Reverse Gravity on falls approximately 30 km straight up....and then when the spell ends they fall 30 km straight down.
Actually, they stop 'falling' upwards when they hit the limit of the effect. So if you make a giant 'column' for the effect, its still only 10ft./caster level, unless I've missed something.
EDIT: Also please note that people in real life have survived falls (due to extenuating circumstances) from mind boggling heights. Eventually, you do hit a point where further distance fallen doesn't really add additional danger to the fall, and its all in the hands of fate (IE, the dice).
So I have him fall into the river 150 below as part of his Move action
-I think that's the problem. You are allowed to interrupt your own move action, say if you're walking towards the big bad guy thats 45 feet away. You decide to double move.
15 feet into the move you're stabbed by his invisible body guard. You can change your mind , stop moving and use your (as of yet unused) standard action to attack.
Now i am NOT suggesting that he can refuse to take a move action and not fall, just pointing out that his falling does not change the fact that he still has a standard action to take. There's no reason, raw wise, that said standard action couldn't be turning into a bird. The standard action itself exists in zero time , during the players turn. He should be able to act. Standard actions normally can't be taken during move actions , but falling isn't an action. He ends his move ACTION (but not his downward movement) when he wants and performs his standard action when he wants.
I see what you're saying Wolf that you shouldn't necessarily assign arbitrary times for these things, but your example could be argued to support his falling 500 feet instantaneously.
That invisible body guard interrupts, takes and completes his action, before you he is allowed to continue his turn. I would argue that just like the invisible bodyguard, gravity interrupts the normal turn, takes and completes its action, before continuing the normal turn.
I see what you're saying Wolf that you shouldn't necessarily assign arbitrary times for these things, but your example could be argued to support his falling 500 feet instantaneously.That invisible body guard interrupts, takes and completes his action, before you he is allowed to continue his turn. I would argue that just like the invisible bodyguard, gravity interrupts the normal turn, takes and completes its action, before continuing the normal turn.
Except that gravity doesn't have turns. It works on a specific time frame. the question here is NOT how much time is there in a round, but how much time is there between someone's move action and someone's standard action. Its not 6 seconds.
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Where do you get 30 km out of "up to one 10-ft. cube/level"?
I'm working on the assumption that that's only meant for the area, not the volume, since it's a 7th level spell, and nerfing it that hardcore should make it MUCH lower in level. So I guess there's a bit of a problem with it either way...it's either pretty overpowered for a 7th level spell, or it so massively underpowered that it's all but useless as a 7th level spell.
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Where do you get 30 km out of "up to one 10-ft. cube/level"?I'm working on the assumption that that's only meant for the area, not the volume, since it's a 7th level spell, and nerfing it that hardcore should make it MUCH lower in level. So I guess there's a bit of a problem with it either way...it's either pretty overpowered for a 7th level spell, or it so massively underpowered that it's all but useless as a 7th level spell.
It explicitly states you stop falling when you hit the limits of the effect, and occilate in place.
Its still plenty powerful for a 7th level spell; its a no-save 'you lose' spell against things that can't fly and dont have something to grab onto, and with proper setup, its incredibly lethal (I believe the combo goes, Timestop, flat prismatic wall above badguys, reverse gravity, eat cake?).
And it can effect a LOT of stuff.
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How 'bout this - Move: Walking across the bridge, then falling. Standard: Wild shapes into a bird (with a successful concentration check). Problem: He's a bird with no movement left (birds don't just float, and he's got a lot of downward momentum). Result: Bird slams into the ground.
If the distance were great enough that he'd still be falling the next round (500'+), THEN he could make some kind of Fly check next round to pull out of what is effectively a dive. But less than one-round's worth of falling - SPLAT!
How 'bout this - Move: Walking across the bridge, then falling. Standard: Wild shapes into a bird (with a successful concentration check). Problem: He's a bird with no movement left (birds don't just float, and he's got a lot of downward momentum). Result: Bird slams into the ground.
If the distance were great enough that he'd still be falling the next round (500'+), THEN he could make some kind of Fly check next round to pull out of what is effectively a dive. But less than one-round's worth of falling - SPLAT!
If you can fly, you can use the Fly skill to avoid falling. Its a simple check described under the skill if I remember right.
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Where do you get 30 km out of "up to one 10-ft. cube/level"?I'm working on the assumption that that's only meant for the area, not the volume, since it's a 7th level spell, and nerfing it that hardcore should make it MUCH lower in level. So I guess there's a bit of a problem with it either way...it's either pretty overpowered for a 7th level spell, or it so massively underpowered that it's all but useless as a 7th level spell.
If that was the case, it'd be a column of "one 10' square/level" or something like that. A cube is already a 3 dimensional shape. 13 10' cubes is still a very versatile and useful spell for 7th level. You could lift 120' square feet (40'x30') worth of area off the ground 10', which is high enough that anything medium sized in it is immobilized. You could lift a single 10'x10' square 130' into the air. And so on. It's quite useful, especially because as you pointed out, it has no save and no spell resist.
Except that gravity doesn't have turns. It works on a specific time frame.
Everything that happens in the game represents something that happens over a period of time. We just apply the effects sequentially. While admittedly unrealistic. Why should gravity be any different.
Think about every action during combat. While the action is resolved, be it a move, an attack, readied action, or whatever, the entire game board is frozen as if in suspended animation. In reality, everything is supposedly happening simultaneously, we accept this turn-based view of combat because otherwise it would be too hard to resolve with everything happening simultaneously. Why should gravity be different and be resolved outside the turn-based system that is used for every other aspect of combat?
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If you can fly, you can use the Fly skill to avoid falling. Its a simple check described under the skill if I remember right.How 'bout this - Move: Walking across the bridge, then falling. Standard: Wild shapes into a bird (with a successful concentration check). Problem: He's a bird with no movement left (birds don't just float, and he's got a lot of downward momentum). Result: Bird slams into the ground.
If the distance were great enough that he'd still be falling the next round (500'+), THEN he could make some kind of Fly check next round to pull out of what is effectively a dive. But less than one-round's worth of falling - SPLAT!
PRD: Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.
Only thing is, just being in bird-shape, you haven't actually started flying yet, as you have no movement left. Walk-fall-wildshape-fly - that seems like an aweful lot to acomplish in 6 seconds. But okay, so you'd need to be in bird shape for at least 40' in order to "remain flying."
You could also try this, but I'm still not convinced you've got any actions left to try something like this...
PRD: Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
PRD: Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
It says, "Action: None" so I guess you'd use the Avoid Falling Damage manuever.
You could also try this, but I'm still not convinced you've got any actions left to try something like this...
PRD: Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
PRD: Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
It says, "Action: None" so I guess you'd use the Avoid Falling Damage manuever.
Thats the one I'm referring to. It doesn't specify even needing an immediate action to do, so I dont see any reason (other than the two listed, which do not apply) you can't prevent falling damage that way.
Do note, it appears you would still fall, but you wouldn't be hurt by it.
Can I ask where you're getting these numbers? Are they based on drag due to air resistance for a roughly human-sized body?
Well specifically, I just did the math quickly in my head, so I could be off a little. No, I don't account for air resistance as that is a much more complex formula and isn't needed since D&D doesn't account for it either. The formula is this...
D = V1 * T + (1/2) A * T^2
V1 is initial velocity and will be 0. Now in reality if you jumped or were otherwise propelled downward, this number would increase, but in free fall and in D&D land, this number will always be 0.
T is the amount of time it takes. This is the unknown.
A is the acceleration. When falling your acceleration rate is always the same (regardless of size or weight). So in this case the pull of 1g is -32.185 feet per second per second. So A is -32.185.
D is the distance traveled. This number will be a negative number equal to how far your character is falling. So if farmer Jed falls 300 feet this number will be -300.
Everything that happens in the game represents something that happens over a period of time. We just apply the effects sequentially. While admittedly unrealistic. Why should gravity be any different.
Why should gravity be different and be resolved outside the turn-based system that is used for every other aspect of combat?
But what you're saying is that gravity gets a full round to act in between someone elses turns. That's a little odd and arbitrary. Even the invisible body guard only got half his normal action alotment, and that was with a held action.
Its the players turn, he gets to decide what actions he takes. Nothing prevents him from shifting as soon as he starts to fall.
Well specifically, I just did the math quickly in my head, so I could be off a little. No, I don't account for air resistance as that is a much more complex formula and isn't needed since D&D doesn't account for it either.
Thanks for the clarification.
The reason why I asked is that you included weight in your earlier statements, and weight is irrelevant when calculating gravitational acceleration in a vacuum. You acknowledged that, so I guess the "150 lb" and "200 lb" in parentheses earlier were erroneous.
Well specifically, I just did the math quickly in my head, so I could be off a little. No, I don't account for air resistance as that is a much more complex formula and isn't needed since D&D doesn't account for it either.Thanks for the clarification.
The reason why I asked is that you included weight in your earlier statements, and weight is irrelevant when calculating gravitational acceleration in a vacuum. You acknowledged that, so I guess the "150 lb" and "200 lb" in parentheses earlier were erroneous.
Lol. Yes they were totally erroneous. I just made up some numbers with the weight since it doesn't matter. I was really tired at the time. I was so tired, in fact, that I thought it was kinda funny. Now that its the next day and I'm wide awake...not so funny.
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The way the game played out is like this:
The druid went across the swaying bridge, taking no precautions at all. He failed his Acrobatics check then his Reflex save so he fell 150 feet.
He said he wanted to Wildshape into a bird during the fall. I said he could not do that.
I rolled damage for the fall (and rather than applying the non-lethal damage I just decided to ignore it for sympathy). I called out the damage and he said "Well, that ain't so bad."
So then I had him make a Swim check to avoid the 50 foot waterfall. He was already in a giant lizard form (or something like that) that had a swim speed. I gave him a bonus to the Swim check based on his swim speed. He failed that check as well. So he took a little bit more damage.
Another player then pipes in "why didn't you just change into a bird while you were falling?"
"I tried but he wouldn't let me."
Then it devolved into an argument that there is no way someone would fall that fast, etc etc etc. So eventually I just got sick and tired of the thing and backed up time, and allowed him to Wildshape into a bird. He was then a bit miffed when I asked for yet another Reflex save (to orient himself and get out of the dive before smashing into the water). He finally made it, so we moved on.
See, I am in no way interested in how it work in real life, since no one is going to be Wildshaping in real life. So whether gravity is a continuos attraction in reality doesn't matter because it is a game with quantum states for everything. If I wanted to apply real world to the game there would be no spells. :)
Ahah, just thought of something
There is time for each square you fall. each square of movement happens one after another in order(so if you were to draw AoO as you fell past orcs with spears they would happen in order) since its your own turn there's no reason you can't use your standard action after moving through any particular squares.
But what you're saying is that gravity gets a full round to act in between someone elses turns. That's a little odd and arbitrary. Even the invisible body guard only got half his normal action alotment, and that was with a held action.
Assuming you meant 'during' as opposed to 'in between' someone else's turn, as technically everyone can take a full rounds' worth of actions in between other players, I see your point. So, what are we to do, divide falling as 1/2 (or whatever ratio is appropriate) when you start to fall and 1/2 when your turn or the round ends? Does it matter if you are 5 feet or 25 feet into your move when you fall?
Its the players turn, he gets to decide what actions he takes. Nothing prevents him from shifting as soon as he starts to fall.
So, are you arguing that he would fall no distance as his action is instantaneous? That seems, shall I say, generous.
Like I said before, I'm not a real big fan of the immediate 500 foot fall but without dragging a lot of math, physics, and house rulings it seems like a huge can of worms.
Ahah, just thought of something
There is time for each square you fall. each square of movement happens one after another in order(so if you were to draw AoO as you fell past orcs with spears they would happen in order) since its your own turn there's no reason you can't use your standard action after moving through any particular squares.
No. You fall the entire distance to a max of 500 feet as in instant effect when you qualify to be "falling". You do not provoke while falling. Falling works like this...
1.) I take an action or an action is taken upon me that causes me to fall.
2.) If I was taking an action when I began to fall, my action ends and I instantly travel the distance of the fall to a maximum of 500 feat in the first round and 1000 feat for every round thereafter.
If you were to swan dive 2500 feet it would look like this...
1.) I spend an action to move and jump. I instantly fall 500 feet. At the end of the 500 feet of movement I may take any remaining actions I have.
2.) At the beginning of the next round I instantly fall another 1000 feet. I can then take my full rounds worth of actions.
3.) At the beginning of the next round I instantly fall the remaining 1000 feet and take 100d6 points (avg. 350) of damage and fall prone. If I am still alive, I get my full rounds worth of actions.
Is it realistic? Not at all. Is it useful for play as an abstract. Sure.
No. You fall the entire distance to a max of 500 feet as in instant effect when you qualify to be "falling". You do not provoke while falling. Falling works like this...
This is derived from.... ?
No. You fall the entire distance to a max of 500 feet as in instant effect when you qualify to be "falling". You do not provoke while falling. Falling works like this...This is derived from.... ?
The rules for Attacks of Opportunity
And the chart on Pg. 183 of the core rule book.
The only actions you can take while falling are immediate actions or free actions attached to immediate actions unless you fall further than 500 feet.
The 100d6 part is wrong actually. It caps at 20d6. Which means that 10th level barbarians can survive falls from the stratosphere, face first and then just get up and flip off the DM.
Also, as I mentioned about the rule about falling distance was based on an unofficial rule. Officially, you fall 500 feet on round one and then...no rules. Everything else I said is RAW. For reference here is that article.
How far does a character fall in a single round? If my griffon-riding character falls off his mount 300 feet up, how long do other characters have to catch him?
This ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in the game.”
Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a rate of 32 feet per second per second. What that means is that every second, a character’s “falling speed” increases by 32 feet. The distance he falls in that second is equal to the average of his falling speeds at the beginning of that second and at the end of that second. Thus, during the first second he falls 16 feet (the average of 0 feet and 32 feet, which are his speeds at the start and end of that second). During the next second he falls 48 feet (the average of 32 feet and 64 feet). He falls 80 feet during the third second, 112 feet the fourth second, 144 feet the fifth second, and 176 feet the sixth second. That’s a grand total of 576 feet fallen in the first round alone, hence the short answer given above—the number of falls occurring in any campaign longer than this is probably pretty small. For ease of play, you could simply use 500 feet as a nice round number—it’s easier to remember.
Of course, the character falls even farther the next round, although acceleration soon ends due to the resistance of air on the falling body (this is what’s called terminal velocity). If the Sage remembers his high-school physics, terminal velocity for a human body is roughly 120 mph (equivalent to a speed of 1,200 feet per round, or 200 feet per second); thus, the character’s falling speed hits its maximum in the first second of the second round. It’s safe to say that after 2 rounds the character will have fallen nearly 2,000 feet, and will fall another 1,200 feet per round thereafter.
In the example you give, other characters would clearly have no more than a round to react, and it’s possible they’d have even less time. Remember that despite the sequential nature of D&D combat actions, things are happening very quickly—virtually simultaneously, in many cases. As a DM, I’d probably allow every character a chance to react to a long fall (such as the one you describe), as long as their action occurs before 1 full round has passed from the start of the fall. (As a side note, that’s why feather fall allows its caster to cast it even when it isn’t her turn—otherwise, adjudicating its timing would be a nightmare.) The difference between “you watch the character fall all the way to the ground before you can react” and “the character starts to fall, what do you do?” is really just up to the DM’s sense of fun and fair play. Off the top of my head, I’d say that anything up to 50 or 60 feet is clearly too fast to react to (barring a readied action, of course), and anything that approaches 250 feet or more should probably allow characters some chance to react, but that’s purely a personal opinion.
Whatever decision you make, try to make the same decision every time, so that players know what to expect. If this situation comes up a lot in your game, it’s probably worth creating a house rule so you don’t have to try to remember what you did last time. (If your campaign routinely features 300-foot falls, your characters might want to invest in some rings of feather falling!) Now, if you start altering certain assumptions—such as the force of gravity, or the density of air that’s resisting the falling character, or even the mass of the falling character—these calculations become less useful. Yet, unless your numbers are much different than the standard values, you can still use these as benchmarks.
There were two other articles like this, one was in Dragon #88 if I recall. I don't have it to reference though.
EDIT: Clarification.
EDIT 2: Additional Clarification
See, I am in no way interested in how it work in real life, since no one is going to be Wildshaping in real life. So whether gravity is a continuos attraction in reality doesn't matter because it is a game with quantum states for everything. If I wanted to apply real world to the game there would be no spells. :)
Bravo. Excellent mindset about this, physics + pathfinder - rarely the twain shall meet.
Ok. Let's look at the Rules real fast (somewhat of a recap)
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level.
So a falling character cannot cast spells, however other actions are not prohibited. We should note that Wildshape is a Supernatural Ability, not a spell-like ability. IMO that makes a difference. Therefore, the Druid should be able to perform a Wildshape.
Although he is falling (that resulted from his Move Action), that Action is over - he is not "locked in" to the move action as circumstances have ended his intended move. It was not his intention to dive face first into the water, so reactionary actions (if they are remaining) should be allowed as falling is not instantaneous.
Supernatural Ability activations do not normally require concentration so per RAW, no check is needed just a Standard Action to change into Bird, then use Fly to avoid the fall. This is because falling (any height) is not instantaneous in Pathfinder.
Avoid Falling Damage
If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
If you would like to pose some kind of concentration check while falling, that could incorporated, but I don't see any reason to not let him change into a bird.
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Ahah, just thought of something
There is time for each square you fall. each square of movement happens one after another in order(so if you were to draw AoO as you fell past orcs with spears they would happen in order) since its your own turn there's no reason you can't use your standard action after moving through any particular squares.
Except the effect that originated in the move action has not yet been resolved.
There are two occasions that interrupt an action that is not yet resolved: AoO and Readied actions. In both cases it is an outside entity acting upon the target. In no instance of the rules that I can find does a player ever get to interrupt his own movement action, except Spring Attack.
If there is then what the heck, let's go ahead and allow a player to move a bit, interrupt his movement to attack, and then finish that movement action. No feat needed because it is the player's action and he decides when he wants to use them.
Sorry, that is a slippery slope I don't want to go down.
While I don't necessarily like the idea of an immediate 500 foot fall, the way the rules read to me is that it is that way. Now like I said earlier I am more than happy to house rule 250 feet, allow an action, then fall another 250 feet. It seems fair to me. But the rules in no way support that interpretation. And to be honest I think it is the best way to handle it. However, in this specific instance the fall was 150 feet, less than that 250 foot marker, so the effect, by my own house rule, would be resolved at once before an action can be performed.
Another reason that I seriously disagree with the player taking his action any time in a fall he wishes is that instantly negates the necessity of Feather Fall. Feather Fall is an Immediate spell, and so could be cast during the fall. The rules specifically say not to use a Standard action during the fall unless it is over 500 feet. Immediate actions are okay, but not Standard actions. You can house rule that is not the case, but that is the official rule.
The rules specifically say not to use a Standard action during the fall unless it is over 500 feet. Immediate actions are okay, but not Standard actions.
This is not the case sir Krome.. please read my above post. The falling rules only state "you cannot cast spells". No mention of other actions. The only caveat to this is that you can cast spells that are Immediate Actions (ie Feather Fall).
Please read my post above and reconsider your stance.
The only actions you can take while falling are immediate actions or free actions attached to immediate actions unless you fall further than 500 feet.
Huh. well THAT sucks. Nicely spotted. Is that new to pathfinder?
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In no instance of the rules that I can find does a player ever get to interrupt his own movement action, except Spring Attack.
Players can interrupt their own move actions all the time. They just have to end their move action. I'm walking past the orc, i'm walking past the goblin, i'm walking... i changed my mind, I'm hiting the orc WHACK.
Riding a mount on horseback, which was what i was thinking of , has you make an attack during the move.
The only actions you can take while falling are immediate actions or free actions attached to immediate actions unless you fall further than 500 feet.Huh. well THAT sucks. Nicely spotted. Is that new to pathfinder?
Please show me this in the rule book.
Please show me this in the rule book.The only actions you can take while falling are immediate actions or free actions attached to immediate actions unless you fall further than 500 feet.Huh. well THAT sucks. Nicely spotted. Is that new to pathfinder?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html#falling
i double checked to make sure it wasn't just pdsrd thing too.
Please show me this in the rule book.The only actions you can take while falling are immediate actions or free actions attached to immediate actions unless you fall further than 500 feet.Huh. well THAT sucks. Nicely spotted. Is that new to pathfinder?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html#falling
i double checked to make sure it wasn't just pdsrd thing too.
I can't find it in the printed version, pdf, or errata, however.
Curious.
I'll quote the text for everyone so they can see..
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
Falls onto yielding surfaces (soft ground, mud) also convert the first 1d6 of damage to nonlethal damage. This reduction is cumulative with reduced damage due to deliberate jumps and the Acrobatics skill.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
I see nothing about Standard Actions. I see you can't cast a spell. That is a big difference.
So, you can use your Standard Action to Wildshape as that is a (Supernatural) ability not a Spell-like ability.
All I am seeing is you can't cast spells unless they are Immediate or you fall more than 500 feet nothing on any other action.
All I am seeing is you can't cast spells unless they are Immediate or you fall more than 500 feet nothing on any other action.
Maybe I've been at the computer too long and need a break, but I swear on Gary Gygax's grave I followed the link Norse posted and saw that exact quote right above the part about falling on a yielding surface.
I couldn't believe I had missed that, went to check the books and when I returned to that page it was gone.
All I am seeing is you can't cast spells unless they are Immediate or you fall more than 500 feet nothing on any other action.Maybe I've been at the computer too long and need a break, but I swear on Gary Gygax's grave I followed the link Norse posted and saw that exact quote right above the part about falling on a yielding surface.
I couldn't believe I had missed that, went to check the books and when I returned to that page it was gone.
Yeah it wasn't there when i looked..........Ninja edit?
I see nothing about Standard Actions. I see you can't cast a spell. That is a big difference.So, you can use your Standard Action to Wildshape as that is a (Supernatural) ability not a Spell-like ability.
Here's the problem. Falling was never assigned an amount of time. Falling just happens. Its a side effect of not have ground directly underneath you. Even with the 500 foot cap in the first round, you fall instantly that far. It isn't a move action or a "Not an Action" or anything like that. It just happens.
They then go on to tell you that you can't cast spells unless it has a casting time of immediate. Including such a rule shows a lack of understanding of the rules of the previous paragraphs. Whoever wrote it goofed. Of course you can't cast a spell unless its an immediate action while falling. You can't do anything that isn't an immediate action (or free action attached to an immediate action) while falling because you can't do anything that isn't an immediate action during an effect that has a time span of "instant". At least not in the first round of falling. What's worse is this implies the contrary even though the contrary is wrong too.
So no you can't wildshape or cast spells or make an attack while falling. If they fix the rule than the inclusion of the spell exception will begin to make sense.
you can't wildshape or cast spells or make an attack while falling. If they fix the rule than the inclusion of the spell exception will begin to make sense.
While that is an interesting interpretation of the Falling Rules, there is nothing to support this instananeous fall idea in the rules. Furthermore, there is nothing you can't do while falling - except cast a spell. If that was the case why not write "you can perform no actions while falling"?
You can deliberately drop (fall) off a 30 ft cliff towards an opponent underneath, and ready an action to strike the opponent when you reach the bottom. And yes, with the rules as currently written, you can begin to fall, quick draw a grappling hook on your belt and hook it onto the ledge with your standard action to save your butt.
Unless they choose to errata this, this is what is written in the book.