With favored enemy: Human.
He's got maybe 1 level of Barbarian...he never rages throughout the core novels that I can see.
He takes two feats to apply his FE bonus to saves and AC against humans, which works for basically every evil sorc he stumbles across. His second FE is probably Animals...helps kill all those giant apes.
He's basically barb/1 when he helps sack Volturnum, then goes straight ranger levels until he finally gains generalship of an army, takes 1 level of fighter (heavy armor prof), and for Leadership he's got the Count of Poitan.
He probably ends up barb/1, ranger/8, fighter/1 in a Pathfinder sense of things. Add ten levels of Ranger if you want him to be uber because of his legend. Give him a bonus combat feat instead of spells whenever he is entitled to a new level of spells, and use the Guide archetype instead of having a pet, although he seldom works with others.
But seriously, FE/human gives him a bigger and better damage bonus then weapon spec, and Conan might favor broadswords, but is perfectly fine with axes and scimitars. he doesn't care, he just kills. the superstitious trend also fits him perfectly.
Seriously, Conan is all about being sneaky,having great senses, and being at home in any environment.
His Favored Terrains are likely northern woods (those poor Picts); urban areas; deserts/arid plains; and the seas (likely extra favored terrains instead of spells), with jungles/mountains as possible kickers. His survival skills are high enough he can get by in just about any terrain, however.
As for stats: Human: Str: 20 Int:14 Wis: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 18 Cha: 16
All advances put into strength. Age bonuses to mental stats in later books. Note that advancing him to Ranger/10 will basically obviate almost ALL his physical decline from aging with another FE advance against humans. Favored class of Ranger, FC bonuses to HP or skills as you like.
With his FE bonuses on social skills against human, his influence is assured over his fellow men. He's as strong and tough as a human can be, a leader of men, quite intelligent and perceptive, and more then fast enough to hold his own (if not as nimble as many thieves).
Thoughts?
And don't say he has to be level 20. He is not a 20th level character in the books by any stretch of the imagination. He's more analogous to a Lord from 1E...about 10th level. Which was incredibly powerful for fighter types back then.
===Aelryinth
With favored enemy: Human.
He's got maybe 1 level of Barbarian...he never rages throughout the core novels that I can see.
He takes two feats to apply his FE bonus to saves and AC against humans, which works for basically every evil sorc he stumbles across. His second FE is probably Animals...helps kill all those giant apes.
He's basically barb/1 when he helps sack Volturnum, then goes straight ranger levels until he finally gains generalship of an army, takes 1 level of fighter (heavy armor prof), and for Leadership he's got the Count of Poitan.
He probably ends up barb/1, ranger/8, fighter/1 in a Pathfinder sense of things. Add ten levels of Ranger if you want him to be uber because of his legend. Give him a bonus combat feat instead of spells whenever he is entitled to a new level of spells, and use the Guide archetype instead of having a pet, although he seldom works with others.
But seriously, FE/human gives him a bigger and better damage bonus then weapon spec, and Conan might favor broadswords, but is perfectly fine with axes and scimitars. he doesn't care, he just kills. the superstitious trend also fits him perfectly.
Seriously, Conan is all about being sneaky,having great senses, and being at home in any environment.
His Favored Terrains are likely northern woods (those poor Picts); urban areas; deserts/arid plains; and the seas (likely extra favored terrains instead of spells), with jungles/mountains as possible kickers. His survival skills are high enough he can get by in just about any terrain, however.
As for stats: Human: Str: 20 Int:14 Wis: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 18 Cha: 16
All advances put into strength. Age bonuses to mental stats in later books. Note that advancing him to Ranger/10 will basically obviate almost ALL his physical decline from aging with another FE advance against humans. Favored class of Ranger, FC bonuses to HP or skills as you like.
With his FE bonuses on social skills against human, his influence is assured over his fellow men. He's as strong and tough...
Interesting take on Conan, ?he's definitely multi-classed, and you're right Ranger is a good fit, perhaps even a couple levels of rogue.
He may just be a barbarian yet. A barbarian without rage...
But, for pathfinder, it does make more sense to make him a ranger than it does a barbarian
I have a 1 ed. Conan module; I think they had him as a 10th level fighter 5th level rogue; iirc.
Well, Rangers DO deal in anger and hate as their bread and butter, what with all those Favored Enemy bonuses.
Still, I'd give him Rogue, as well. I mean, he DID steal quite a lot of things in his career.
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I agree, though it sounds like you´re mixing up some of the PRPG Ranger Archetypes.
Guide GIVES UP Favored Enemy for a limited use COMBAT ONLY bonus usable vs. everything, and besides sharing Favored Terrain with their Allies (the only ´group´ ability they have, ironic for being called ´Guide´), they get offensive/defensive re-rolls and extra actions and bonuses to Saves, i.e. the stuff you need to live thru everything Conan does. Another rationale for not taking Guide would be that it gives up Evasion, but that seems marginal, especially since the other stuff he´s giving up (Companion or more broad bonuses to allies) aren´t really his schtick at all. With Ranger skills and his INT, he has no problem maxing all the skills he wants, though, so the FE:Human social bonuses are acceptable to give up.
Skirmisher gives up spells for all sort of abilities, again just what he needs.
I forget who mentioned it here most recently, but it would really have been better if Paizo had ditched the ´Barbarian´ as Class thing, kept that as a social descriptor, and called the Barbarian Class ´Berserker´ instead. There really are alot of people who think if you want to play a barbarian akin to Conan, you need to use the Barbarian Class. I hope Paizo considers that with PRPG 2nd Edition or whatever.
EDIT: And I agree Conan d20 still does a way better job than PRPG in general at running a Conan style game. There are some innovations that could be back-portable, but PRPG is too focused to ´high Fantasy´ IMHO. Honestly, I think doing a ´gritty, low-magic´ AP with alternate rules that mesh with Core PRPG (possibly the Red World? that would seem in-line with a Conan/pulp sort of vibe) would be one of the awesomest moves Paizo could do with their AP line.
I say he is a ranger/rogue or maybe straight ranger. 8 to 10th level sounds right as well.
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That´s why he asked for other people´s thoughts, dude.
I prefer the term "primal nature" and that's what the barbarian is really about. Someone who's grown up in an urban environment can't be in touch with a primal nature because cities are anything but primal environments.
Clearly you have never been stranded at the bus depot in downtown L.A. before....
Marv would like to have a word with you about the concrete jungle and its primal nature.
I prefer the term "primal nature" and that's what the barbarian is really about. Someone who's grown up in an urban environment can't be in touch with a primal nature because cities are anything but primal environments.
http://old.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan.htm
Conan in 3.5 levels 1-25 with each tied into a specific story.
Sweeeeeeeeeet.
Does this count?
Concrete jungles don't exist in worlds like Golarion. You're about a thousand years too early.
uuuuh....no?.....
Concrete jungles don't exist in worlds like Golarion. You're about a thousand years too early.
Oh sure, I see how it is. Way to move the goal post! Never said anything about golarion before. Now I can't even use Sharn as an example. Tch! :)
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He's got maybe 1 level of Barbarian...he never rages throughout the core novels that I can see.
Once, I think, when he is staked to a cross.
I would make him level 12th or even a bit more. He should get the 3rd iterative attack. And in the list of weapons he use with ease you can add the composite bow from horseback, so effectively the ranger bonuses and broad range of skills seem more appropriate than specialization and the narrower range of skills of a fighter.
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He's got maybe 1 level of Barbarian...he never rages throughout the core novels that I can see.
What are these "core novels" you speak of? Robert E. Howard wrote Conan in a number of short stories and novellas, and I can assure you when they talk about the "red mist" descending that basically means he's raging. Even if it's not "anger" the mechanic certainly fits his style.
I'd say he's straight barbarian, with Superstitious and Witch Hunter rage powers at the very least.
Also throw anything, which in beta was called "razor sharp chair leg" and absolutely was named in homage of a certain Conan story :)
Still, I'd give him Rogue, as well. I mean, he DID steal quite a lot of things in his career.About the only rogue-list skills Conan ever used while thieving were climb and stealth -- which are also on the ranger list.
Class skills don't mean a damn anymore. In pathfinder I'm fairly certain he'd be a barbarian MAYBE with some fighter levels but why bother?
Also, whats all this about favored enemy: human? He fought much and more supernatural terrors than boring humans.
Was Conan a tracker? He may have been, I don't claim comprehensive knowledge of the stories, but I don't recall him having tracking skills. I'd actually be curious to know if he could track. So if someone knows, feel free to enlighten me.
Read "Beyond the Black River." Conan was absolutely a ranger. Tracking foes, ranging the frontier, slaying Picts. The story has ranger written all over it.
Also, whats all this about favored enemy: human? He fought much and more supernatural terrors than boring humans.
Yes, Conan killed all sorts of things. But he didn't often go seeking supernatural foes. He preferred to steer clear of such threats.
Conan was an expert at killing people. By the score.
EDIT: spelling.
CONAN, two-weapon wielding ranger style!
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CONAN, two-weapon wielding ranger style!
Thing is, people associating two-weapon with rangers is a hold-over from 3.5. In general, no matter what the armed fighting style you're going for is, the fighter is the best suited for it. He's a better two-weapon warrior or archer than the ranger. He's a better mounted warrior than the cavalier or paladin. He's a better two-handed warrior than the barbarian.
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I'd say Barbarian much more than Ranger for Conan. Barbarians get Climb, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Survival, etc. as class skills too - he can 'range' all over the show just using them. He probably took a Trait to get Stealth as a class skill too... or just took ranks in it anyway. In other words, the Ranger isn't the only class suited to romping about the wilderness by a long shot.
Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense, and lot of the rage powers are much more 'Conan' than anything a Ranger does...
Rangers cast spells - Conan doesn't
Rangers stick with one combat style - Conan doesn't
Rangers hang aroud with an animal buddy, or a group of friends - Conan generally doesn't (not enough to indicate a core class feature anyway)
Sure Conan spends a lot of time killing humans... but then, that's the world he's set in - mostly humans, with the odd mutated Lovecraftian weirdness thrown in for good measure. In that setting no sane DM is ever going to allow a Ranger to take 'Favoured Enemy - human' since it's far too broad - it's more likely to be 'Favoured Enemy - Stygians' or something...
The guy never really seems less good no matter the environment, or the weapons provided, or the enemies he's facing - all of which tend to suggest, to me at least, that he's not rocking specific bonuses against specific things... like the Ranger tends to.
All IMHO, natch. Even the Conan d20 game has run different stats for the guy, pointing out that there are a multitude of ways to mirror a fictional character, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
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...he never rages throughout the core novels that I can see."But the horror that paralyzed and destroyed Ascalante roused in [Conan] the Cimmerian a frenzied fury akin to madness."That's from The Phoenix on the Sword, the first Conan story ever written, and it sounds a lot like rage to me.
Yeah, but The Phoenix on the Sword was a page for page rewrite of By This Axe I Rule, which was a rejected Kull book (which is also how Conan came about. The publisher rejected his Kull stories as being "too talky" so he changed Kull to Conan and did a partial re-write so there was more fighting and less philosophical musing).
Kull was 100% D&D barbarian. Dude flew into a berserk rage pretty much every fight.
I'm willing to bet the mentions of Conan flying into a rage come from the re-purposed Kull stories. Conan is a lot more even tempered and fighter/rogue/non-magical ranger-y in the later, originally written stories (such as Red Nails, The Black Stranger, or Beyond the Black River)
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Rage isn't limited to wild-eyed froth-mouthed berserkers these days. It's probably better to look at the various rage powers and ask - 'do any of these match stuff the character does?'. Strength Surge, for example, seems like a Conan sort of thing... Rolling Dodge, Guarded Stance... a great number of the rage powers are just the sorts of things Conan gets up to.
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Rage isn't limited to wild-eyed froth-mouthed berserkers these days. It's probably better to look at the various rage powers and ask - 'do any of these match stuff the character does?'. Strength Surge, for example, seems like a Conan sort of thing... Rolling Dodge, Guarded Stance... a great number of the rage powers are just the sorts of things Conan gets up to.
Oh, I'm sure you could make a barbarian version of Conan. I'm reading through the Del Rey collection again now (HIGHLY recommend) though, and he keeps striking me as a straight fighter. A straight fighter with high stats, especially intelligence (and the correspondingly high number of skill points). I mean, you'd need a lot of feats to cover the stuff he does in game.
Still, this is an argument that could go around and around forever. Howard obviously didn't write Conan with D&D in mind so trying to pin a character class on him would be as subjective as trying to figure out Batman's alignment (which could be totally different issue by issue depending on who is writing the comic at the moment).
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Conan - siege of Venariium - 1st level Barbarian
Conan - his time as a thief in Arejun and Zamora 2-3 levels of Rouge.
Conan - Chief of the Azghuli 3-4 Levels of Fighter
Conan - As Amra the Lion on the Black Coast - say another level or two of fighter maybe ranger
Conan - As General then later King of Aquilonia I say fighter again.
Also he rages in more than one story, he just does not stay raged for very long. Then he gets to thinking and gets dangerous.
So Bar 1, Rog 3, Ran 4, Ftr 6
You dont have any theif levels, without that its not accurate. He did quite a bit of theiving in his time.
1) there is no thief class
2) you don't need to have levels of rogue in order to be rogueish. i mean, he FIGHTS, there's no doubt, but he is a barbarian not a fighter. he occasionally rode a horse but he's not a cavalier. these actions are not class specific.
Don't forget that Conan has uncanny dodge, so he has some barbarian or rogue levels.
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And a ranger coulda made that vulture an animal companion.
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My biggest problem with designing Conan with any levels of the Pathfinder Ranger class is that I really can't imagine the guy spamming a wand of cure light wounds... which he could (and would) do with even a single level of the Ranger class. In that respect he's pretty much limited to levels of Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue (which sort of makes sense, come to think of it), and possibly Cavalier if you pushed it (but doubtful).
My biggest problem with designing Conan with any levels of the Pathfinder Ranger class is that I really can't imagine the guy spamming a wand of cure light wounds... which he could (and would) do with even a single level of the Ranger class. In that respect he's pretty much limited to levels of Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue (which sort of makes sense, come to think of it), and possibly Cavalier if you pushed it (but doubtful).
Spell-less varient
Rangers cast spells - Conan doesn't
Rangers stick with one combat style - Conan doesn't
Rangers hang aroud with an animal buddy, or a group of friends - Conan generally doesn't (not enough to indicate a core class feature anyway)
The OP actually detailed the specific Ranger Archetypes which in fact don´t have those things*,
and which he thus found appropriate to model Conan with. But for that alternate universe where the OP didn´t swap those abilities out with Archetypes, spot on.* well, perhaps barring the 2nd, which he didn´t deal with at all...
and you can just as equally say that Rangers DON´T need to stick to one fighting style,
but choose the most advantageous one (while developing other styles normally),
either for bypassing pre-reqs, early entry, or just because they´d otherwise take the Feat(s) anyways.
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Seriously, Conan specializes in killing humans, tons of humans. Supernatural things just happen along every now and then.
I don't really see him with ANY rogue levels. There are rogues in the novels, master theives of superlative ability who do all the classic rogue stuff...traps, poisons, locks, sneakiness. Conan always climbs like a hill man, not a theif...sneaks like a hunter, not an assassin. He's never, ever described anywhere like a theif, he's always animalistic. The fact that he robs people is like saying all assassins have to have the assassin class...meh. Brute fighters can rob people, too. Conan doesn't have any of the rogue-only skills, nor is he a fast talker. Not a rogue.
Likewise, never wears plate (heavy) armor until he's appointed the General by fiat of Mitra in a later story in his career. Chain is the heaviest thing you see him in.
Read the Tower of the Elephant...he meets a real master rogue there. The difference in style of their abilities is stark, while it doesn't actually say the master is any stealthier then he is. Plenty of rogues in the stories, and he's nothing like them, nor is he a proper thug, as he's way too smart to not be the one giving the orders.
So the 1E level stuff just doesn't work for me. Likewise, he never takes any kind of civilized fighting until he's working for Yezdigard down in Turanistan, and he quickly gets bored with soldiering and ends up with the Kozaki and stuff. IN later stories he's a Zingaran privateer and studies fencing...so he can use an axe to pound through their feints and parries. He studies it to learn how to kill, not to play at feinting with a rapier.
I just reread almost all the core stories, and Pathfinder 'rage' just never jumps out at me in any of the fights as something important. Conan is a highly-trained, ferocious combatant, but going 'berzerk' is not really part of his battle schema. He's way too focused and controlled for that.
And yes, Conan can track. Yes, his senses are very acute. I'd personally sub uncanny dodge for evasion (which in low magic makes more sense), but whatever. He's a spell-less variant ranger, as I pointed out...his setting has few spellcasters, and they are basically all either out and out bad guys, with a couple who are priests who aren't so bad.
And yes, I've seen the level 1-25 progression for Conan, which tries to match his abilities with that gaming system, and has problems...great read, tho.
I don't see him as having a lot of barb levels unless you seriously alter how rage works. Since Conan almost never enters a rage, many of the 'iconic' abilities wouldn't work. That's why he's got the feat that lets him add his FE bonus/humans to AC and to Saves...he's incredibly hard to hit with stuff, and the FE bonus is not limited by armor!
I DO like the idea of a Savage class that is 'external' to the Rage mechanic, which should be about a berzerker. A Savage is a more primal, spiritual type of fighter, fighting with his ancestors at his side instead of learning en passe at sechs from Master Fleur's Academy of the Sword.
Superstitious sums up Conan's anti-magic pretty well, and he's never a civilized man even at his latest. I'd say that's what he's evoking in the 'Phoenix on the Sword.'
Given his abilities at Stealth, Athletics, Perception, Linguistics, Riding, Survival, Climb, Profession (sailor), Profession (soldier), Intimidation, Diplomacy (later levels), Sense Motive...I don't think he's a barbarian. He needs too many skill points!
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And we can't make him seriously much past tenth level, because nothing he does in the stories equates to things that characters higher then 10th level are supposed to do in PF. If you want to endorse his legendary aspect, sure.
===Aelryinth