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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Hi, i had a problem(s) with my players. The case:
A paladin with a longsword +1, greater magic weapon on it (+3) and divine bond (sp) to add +2 more and holy. So the longsword is +5 holy at the end.
The monster do a sunder attack with its bite (it has the feat improved sunder) -it has also an effect of magic fang.
PF 468: Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
1) Can the monster damage the weapon?
1-a) the spell Magic Weapon, greater and the divine Bond (sp) count for the rule PF468, so the weapon is no more considered as a weapon +1 but as a +5, so you need a weapon at least +5 to damage the weapon of the paladin.
Does the natural bite attack of the monster sunder the weapon of the paladin? or not?
If not, it means that for instance that an ancient white dragon (which has the feat Improved Sunderd as standard allocation) cannot sunder even a poor weapon +1.
1-b) the temporary enhancement doesn't count for the rule PF468. So in this case, the longsword is just considered as +1 to know if a sunder could make damage.
Does the + enhancement given by spell or divine bond give more hardness and HP for the item (+2 hardness and +10 HP by +1 enhancement)?
Does the natural bite attack of the monster sunder the weapon of the paladin? or not? (in this case, the magic fang doesn't count for PF468).
1-c) If anyway the weapon take damage, what happens when the temporary magical effects (Magic Weapon, greater & divine bond) wear off?
2) dispel magic against this weapon
The monster has an effect like a dispel magic against the weapon. The paladin fails his save for the weapon.
What happens?
2-a) the effect renders the item non magical during 1d4 rounds, so all magical effects (+1 enhancement, magic weapon greater & divine bond) are suppressed. And the weapon is just masterwork (so can be sundered by non magical weapon or shatter).
2-b) only the bonus "natural" +1 of the sword is suppressed, but not the spells effects on it (MW greater & divine bond)?
Defraeter wrote:
1) Can the monster damage the weapon?
1-a) the spell Magic Weapon, greater and the divine Bond (sp) count for the rule PF468, so the weapon is no more considered as a weapon +1 but as a +5, so you need a weapon at least +5 to damage the weapon of the paladin.
Does the natural bite attack of the monster sunder the weapon of the paladin? or not? My gut says this is the case. It's also, by far, the easiest to rule and get on with. Non-magic bite can't sunder magic sword.
I could see arguing that GMW doesn't count, since GMW specifically says it does not allow the weapon to bypass DR other than magic, when a normal +3 weapon can bypass silver/cold iron. So if it doesn't count for DR, maybe it doesn't count for sunder? It doesn't say so, but I could see people wanting it to work that way.
Defraeter wrote: If not, it means that for instance that an ancient white dragon (which has the feat Improved Sunderd as standard allocation) cannot sunder even a poor weapon +1. Dragon needs to be casting magic fang, or getting an amulet.
Defraeter wrote:
2) dispel magic against this weapon
The monster has an effect like a dispel magic against the weapon. The paladin fails his save for the weapon.
What happens?
Assuming the monster did this three times, and made all the relevant caster level checks, he would:
1) Dispel the Greater Magic Weapon spell (normal dispel rules)
2) Dispel the Divine Bond (It's a Sp ability, and Dispel Magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells
3) Suppress the magical properties for 1d4 rounds
The suppressed sword is now a masterwork sword. It can be sundered, and if destroyed, royally hoses the Paladin for 30 days.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Grick wrote: Defraeter wrote:
2) dispel magic against this weapon
The monster has an effect like a dispel magic against the weapon. The paladin fails his save for the weapon.
What happens?
Assuming the monster did this three times, and made all the relevant caster level checks, he would:
1) Dispel the Greater Magic Weapon spell (normal dispel rules)
2) Dispel the Divine Bond (It's a Sp ability, and Dispel Magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells
3) Suppress the magical properties for 1d4 rounds
The suppressed sword is now a masterwork sword. It can be sundered, and if destroyed, royally hoses the Paladin for 30 days.
Not as simple as you mean, the spell Dispel Magic says "...all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds."
It depends on what you mean by "magical properties"...
A spell of boost like MW greater or divine bond give additional magical properties to the item, so you could say the effects of these spells are suppressed too during the 1d4 rounds...
Or possible to say one of these spell is cancelled too by the dispel.
Rules seems to me not very clear.
Defraeter wrote: the spell Dispel Magic says "...all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds."
It depends on what you mean by "magical properties"...
A spell of boost like MW greater or divine bond give additional magical properties to the item, so you could say the effects of these spells are suppressed too during the 1d4 rounds...
Or possible to say one of these spell is cancelled too by the dispel.
Rules seems to me not very clear.
That is kind of sticky. I think the intent is that it would require three successful casts to remove Divine Bond, Magic Weapon, and to suppress the enchanted enhancement bonus.
I do not think that casting Dispel Magic targeting a magic weapon both removes it's enchantment AND cancels all spells that were cast on it.
This does cause some issues, though. For instance, a +1 sword with Divine Bond granting flaming. Dispelling the enhancement bonus makes the Flaming invalid (Divine Bond requires at least a +1 enhancement bonus before adding additional properties). In cases like this, I would house-rule that the Divine Bond could be shifted to make it legal again. Having -every- magical effect on the weapon suppressed with a single cast seems rather powerful, especially after Paizo reduced the power of Dispel Magic from the 3.5 version.
FAQ'ing.
If the monster has DR/Magic, it can sunder the weapon. If the monster does NOT have Dr/Magic, it cannot sunder the weapon. DR/Magic is the key here.
The Paladin's Divine Bond is an enhancement bonus that stacks with the base enhancement bonus of the weapon. The weapon is a +3 weapon whether or not you cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. Using the Paladin Bond to give it flaming and shock makes it a +3 (+1 base, +3 temporary) flaming shock weapon, and is more cost effective. Though you might want to go with Holy.
Only permanent bonuses apply for making the sunder attempt, not the temporary effects, so a +1 sword can cut through a +1 sword with greater magic weapon (+5) cast on it, in the same way that native bonuses to the weapon can supplant the need for special materials for damage reduction (at +3 for silver and iron, and +4 for adamantine) or alignment (+5 for alignment).
The sunder references are only for weapons sundering each other. +1 swords are not unharmed by the stomp of titans.
Further, Dispel Magic either targets the magical effect OF THE ITEM (the +1 in this case, and the Divine Bond improvement) or the magical effect of the Greater Magic Weapon spell. The spell would be ended prematurely, the sword itself is rendered non-magical very briefly. That would make it destroyable by even Non-DR/Magic creatures.
Purplefixer wrote: The Paladin's Divine Bond is an enhancement bonus that stacks with the base enhancement bonus of the weapon. The weapon is a +3 weapon whether or not you cast Greater Magic Weapon on it. GMW doesn't stack with enchanted enhancement bonuses, sure, but why wouldn't Divine Bond stack with them? A CL12 cast of GMW on a +1 sword results in +3. Divine Bond says it stacks with existing weapon bonuses.
Purplefixer wrote: Only permanent bonuses apply for making the sunder attempt The damaging rule says "a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus" it doesn't say permanent bonus. A plain sword that has Magic Weapon cast on it has an enhancement bonus.
Purplefixer wrote: Further, Dispel Magic either targets the magical effect OF THE ITEM or the magical effect of the Greater Magic Weapon spell. If the Flaming granted by Divine Bond is not part of the item's magical properties, and therefore not suppressed, what happens when the item loses its enhancement bonus? Divine Bond (and Flaming) requires an enhancement bonus.
Grick wrote: My gut says this is the case. It's also, by far, the easiest to rule and get on with. Non-magic bite can't sunder magic sword.
[...]Defraeter wrote: If not, it means that for instance that an ancient white dragon (which has the feat Improved Sunderd as standard allocation) cannot sunder even a poor weapon +1. Dragon needs to be casting magic fang, or getting an amulet.
I see earth and water elementals have improved sunder as allocation (for greater and more)... It will be an hard time for them to use their feat, because they have no treasure (so no amulet), nor spell ability.
If i can agree a greater earth elemental cannot break all the weapons whatever enhancement bonus (for balance of the rule), i don't accept the idea it can only break non magical item.
Perhaps a rule on CR or HD?
And if we accept the idea that no permanent enhancement (like spell or divine bond) increase the level of an item against sunder (ie rule PF 468), because sunder is already "powerful" and it is "better for balance of game", it means it gives advantage to:
- spellcaster which can improve the weapon against another time fighter.
- special power like divine bond because this power stack with other enhancement.
And how do we manage the hit points offered by the temporary spells?
Are they temporary hit points for item or these disappear at the end of spells (similar to HP gained by rage of barbarian) and are not lost first like temporary HP?
Grick wrote: Defraeter wrote: 2) dispel magic against this weapon
The monster has an effect like a dispel magic against the weapon. The paladin fails his save for the weapon.
What happens?
Assuming the monster did this three times, and made all the relevant caster level checks, he would:
1) Dispel the Greater Magic Weapon spell (normal dispel rules)
2) Dispel the Divine Bond (It's a Sp ability, and Dispel Magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells
3) Suppress the magical properties for 1d4 rounds
The suppressed sword is now a masterwork sword. It can be sundered, and if destroyed, royally hoses the Paladin for 30 days.
Sure. Dispel isn't no more what it was in this case. Not interesting at all to dispel an item, except perhaps with greater dispel.
But if you put spells like light on your weapon, it becomes "immune" against dispel... (i.e the light has to be dispelled before the weapon can be dispelled...).
Not satisfying.
Note: don't forget to put these question for FAQ if you think it would be interesting.
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