Serving a dead deity...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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A Man In Black wrote:


You're playing it WRONG! Stop having fun, guys! Why are you having fun the wrong way! Stop it, guys! GUYS!

Yeah because it is impossable to have fun and play the same setting the rest of the group is useing.

GM "We are playing a modren game"
Player " Cool I am playing an undead Egyptian wizard!"

This is the very thing that is going on here. Golarion is a Huge worlds with millions of ideas and character types you can make. But no you MUST have the one that the setting does not allow. No other concept will do but this one, the one that does not work within the setting.

What is so damned unfun about making a character that is appropriate to the setting your Gm is using?

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I just never under stand going out of your way to make a character that does not fit the setting you are playing.

You do not make an elf in an all human game.
You do not make a paladin in an all undead game.
And you do not make a godless cleric in a setting that does not allow them.

The OP like a few others here is not wanting to make a pc that fits the setting, but bend and change the setting till it is no longer what it was, just so his idea now fits.

Aroden does indeed have cleric, none of them have clerical powers at all and all are over a hundred years old.

That is the issue I always have with threads like this, make a character that fits the setting you are playing in.

Basically, they're all having wrong/bad fun, according to you, is tat the problem? Its like you take it personally what someone else does in their game.


No, It was a setting based question. Again why is it so hard to make a pc that fits the setting?

The OP already knew it did not fit, and came and asked how he could make it fit. Short answer was he could not make it fit without changing the setting.

He was given ways to make this concept work with in the setting by using another class, but it came down to he like a few others did not care about what the setting allowed.

If you do not want to play the setting your GM is running tell him so. Do not make a concept you know undermines the setting and puts everyone else's enjoyment of that setting in danger.

You are not playing the same setting everyone else is.


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I believe that Aroden never died, but instead was forced by a deity greater than himself into the body of a great dane, forced for eternity to solve mysteries with a group of groovy teenagers.

If my GM allows it, my cleric can worship Scooby Doo, I don't care what the rulebooks say.

Create Food (Scooby Snax).


All of you who defend the idea of "concept cleric without a god" and "take power from their faith in something"... tell me why the clerics of Aroden lost their powers when said god disappeared?

Because divine magic usually works in a begging way; Druids and rangers ask Gozreh (Or Mielliki, or Hal-habad, whatever the setting) or the green faith, which is a concept. Oracles are "favored souls", basically being infused by a deity's power naturally. Clerics are servants who receive power through devotion. Paladins pretty much the same, only on a different level.

There is a connection to a particular source in all cases. Should that source disappear, no powers. A cleric changing alignment can retain her cleric levels by switching faith (Though obviously, after a life of devotion to a single deity, most fanatics wouldn't.) But they do not develop powers of their own.

Yeah, you can definitely play a cleric of Aroden. But be aware that you get no powers. In this setting at least.


LazarX wrote:
Iarwaeth wrote:
I am thinking of making a cleric/holy vindicator, and think that Aroden would be(have been) the diety of choice for my PC. Seeing as Aroden is no longer an active source of power, how far of a stretch would it be to pray to Aroden, and have Iomedae hear my prayers as she was his follower. I know it is something to talk to the DM about but what does the community think?

As expansive as Iomedae may be, she'd rather be giving out her power to those who venerate her and push her banner forward.

Aroden has been dead for centuries now. That anyone would still be worshipping him is bending the plausibility envelope to a severe degree.

Uh, hommie, it states in Gods and Magic that there are still worshipers of Aroden, though whether or not they receive any actually power is left up to plot device.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

On a side note, the adventure "Beyond the Vault of Souls" has a perfect example of a spell-casting Cleric who thinks that he draws his divine magic from Aroden.

The truth of course, is far more complicated.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

No, It was a setting based question. Again why is it so hard to make a pc that fits the setting?

The OP already knew it did not fit, and came and asked how he could make it fit. Short answer was he could not make it fit without changing the setting.

And thats where your outrage seems to come in. So what. The setting isnt set in stone. Anyone and everyone can take it and adapt it to their likes and tastes. If I dont want the prehistoric part in the NW? or too many countries? Guess what, their gone.

What YOU think doesnt matter that much. Only his/her DM. If the DM gives the ok, then you make it fit. What a bunch of random folks on teh board think doesnt.

Quote:


He was given ways to make this concept work with in the setting by using another class, but it came down to he like a few others did not care about what the setting allowed.

If you do not want to play the setting your GM is running tell him so. Do not make a concept you know undermines the setting and puts everyone else's enjoyment of that setting in danger.

You are not playing the same setting everyone else is.

No he/she is not playing the setting YOU think it should be played. The setting is just that, a setting, which can be changed or built to taste. Allow implies you or others have any authority over what should and should not be allowed. The ONLY one that has that is teh DM.


Krimson wrote:

All of you who defend the idea of "concept cleric without a god" and "take power from their faith in something"... tell me why the clerics of Aroden lost their powers when said god disappeared?

Because divine magic usually works in a begging way; Druids and rangers ask Gozreh (Or Mielliki, or Hal-habad, whatever the setting) or the green faith, which is a concept. Oracles are "favored souls", basically being infused by a deity's power naturally. Clerics are servants who receive power through devotion. Paladins pretty much the same, only on a different level.

There is a connection to a particular source in all cases. Should that source disappear, no powers. A cleric changing alignment can retain her cleric levels by switching faith (Though obviously, after a life of devotion to a single deity, most fanatics wouldn't.) But they do not develop powers of their own.

Yeah, you can definitely play a cleric of Aroden. But be aware that you get no powers. In this setting at least.

Unfortunately in the realm of fantasy, your argument can be countered simply by saying, "Because those Clerics worshiped 'Aroden' not the concepts and ideas that Aroden left behind. And thus they got power directly from him, not from the metaphysical divine mandates set in place by his belief."

Scarab Sages

Krimson wrote:

All of you who defend the idea of "concept cleric without a god" and "take power from their faith in something"... tell me why the clerics of Aroden lost their powers when said god disappeared?

Because divine magic usually works in a begging way; Druids and rangers ask Gozreh (Or Mielliki, or Hal-habad, whatever the setting) or the green faith, which is a concept. Oracles are "favored souls", basically being infused by a deity's power naturally. Clerics are servants who receive power through devotion. Paladins pretty much the same, only on a different level.

There is a connection to a particular source in all cases. Should that source disappear, no powers. A cleric changing alignment can retain her cleric levels by switching faith (Though obviously, after a life of devotion to a single deity, most fanatics wouldn't.) But they do not develop powers of their own.

Yeah, you can definitely play a cleric of Aroden. But be aware that you get no powers. In this setting at least.

I don't think the OP expected to worship the memory of Aroden and get spells. I do think he wanted to be a misguided worshipper of Aroden and get spells from Iomedae. As far as I know, no setting in the past has let you worship a dead or imaginary god and get clerics spells. However in Forgotten Realms for instance, often times dead or incapacitated gods had their clerics receiving spells from other deities. So its not like its a foreign trope that has never happened.

Getting powers as a cleric of Aroden obviously isnt going to happen unless another deity steps in and fulfills the request. The question is whether Iomedae (or another god for more sinister reasons) would choose to do this. Just because there has been clerics of Aroden written as being spell-less doesn't mean that Iomedae would never-ever-do-this-no-matter-what-so-don't-ask. You obviously can't expect to play this character concept in PFS. The OP didnt ask about PFS. He asked it it was reasonable to expect that this could happen. Read about Iomedae, and I think you will see it is possible, in the short term (she would want him to convert to her before too long) depending on the interpretation of her description by the individual GM.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

No, It was a setting based question. Again why is it so hard to make a pc that fits the setting?

The OP already knew it did not fit, and came and asked how he could make it fit. Short answer was he could not make it fit without changing the setting.

He was given ways to make this concept work with in the setting by using another class, but it came down to he like a few others did not care about what the setting allowed.

If you do not want to play the setting your GM is running tell him so. Do not make a concept you know undermines the setting and puts everyone else's enjoyment of that setting in danger.

You are not playing the same setting everyone else is.

To say that the OP is choosing something not allowed in the game is rather short-sighted to me. Where does it say that Iomedae is not allowed or not capable, or its against her creed for her to do this? To my knowledged, it doesn't.

Most of the APs Paizo publishes are full of NPCs that are weird, off the wall, unique, or corner cases. Why? Because they are interesting, unexpected, and creative. I am surprised to hear bashing of this player concept as annoying, ignorant, etc. for following this trend.

Silver Crusade

mrofmist wrote:

...snip other quotes...

Uh, hommie, it states in Gods and Magic that there are still worshipers of Aroden, though whether or not they receive any actually power is left up to plot device.

worshipers does not equal clerics

It may be mostly laity that refuse to believe their god is gone. They may even worship other gods but take the time to pray to Aroden now and then.


The wonderful thing about RPGs is that we can have arguements like this :)


carmachu wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I just never under stand going out of your way to make a character that does not fit the setting you are playing.

You do not make an elf in an all human game.
You do not make a paladin in an all undead game.
And you do not make a godless cleric in a setting that does not allow them.

The OP like a few others here is not wanting to make a pc that fits the setting, but bend and change the setting till it is no longer what it was, just so his idea now fits.

Aroden does indeed have cleric, none of them have clerical powers at all and all are over a hundred years old.

That is the issue I always have with threads like this, make a character that fits the setting you are playing in.

Basically, they're all having wrong/bad fun, according to you, is tat the problem? Its like you take it personally what someone else does in their game.

I don't think seeker cares what happens in a home-brew modified golarion. His point is that using the 100% official version it can't happen.

PS:For those of you who are new(er) I am agreeing with Seeker.
You will notice a pattern in such threads.

PS2:I wonder if I just jinxed myself.


To the original poster... it really boils down to your DM. Before I started my RotRL's campaign, I told my players that if they wanted to play a divine caster, they must choose a god. For me, it was a pet peeve against the whole, "I don't really worship a god, I just follow a philosophy that gets me the two best domains."

Having followed Golarion so much more over the years, I would even be more of an emphatic NO! against a player wanting to be granted spells from a living god, while worshiping a dead god. For my game, it would not matter this delusion was heartily roleplayed. I love the idea of the magus classed inquisitor. Great concept. Or an oracle that pays homage to Aroden's beliefs.

It just boils down to what your DM allows. The community cannot answer that for you. KAM and many others are, "Hey, great concept! Sure, let's do it!", myself, and some others, are more restrictive. If you wanna cast magic and worship a dead god, give me a work around. Be a bard or magus, or come up with something else. In my version of Golaraion, (yes, everyone's is different)Aroden's death is certain. How it happened is a mystery. Enough time has passed that it is known everywhere...Aroden is gone. The only worshipers left are the mad or those that are being deliberately mislead by something "not nice" and Calistria is not "not nice" enough :) for it to be her. We're talkin' Demons, devils and outsiders ( oh my!)

But once again, ask your DM. Mine doesn't even read threads like these or accept rulings or arguements from them.

Greg

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
redcelt32 wrote:

To say that the OP is choosing something not allowed in the game is rather short-sighted to me. Where does it say that Iomedae is not allowed or not capable, or its against her creed for her to do this? To my knowledged, it doesn't.

Most of the APs Paizo publishes are full of NPCs that are weird, off the wall, unique, or corner cases. Why? Because they are interesting, unexpected, and creative. I am surprised to hear bashing of this player concept as annoying, ignorant, etc. for following this trend.

1. It's against her interest to do so. For Iomedae to promote her causes she needs to promote herself, her NAME, as well. Giving spells to some whack job who insists on promoting a diety that's not her does not serve her purpose.

2. The player's concept is not "interesting" and it's certainly not "unique". It's a gimmick, plain and simple. He wants a setting rules exception because apparantly he can't feel "special" without one.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:


1. It's against her interest to do so. For Iomedae to promote her causes she needs to promote herself, her NAME, as well. Giving spells to some whack job who insists on promoting a diety that's not her does not serve her purpose.

2. The player's concept is not "interesting" and it's certainly not "unique". It's a gimmick, plain and simple. He wants a setting rules exception because apparantly he can't feel "special" without one.

1.) Use some imagination! What if the cleric is being tapped in some other capacity to fulfill Iomedae's goals indirectly? There are any number of plots I could develop which has the unwitting cleric of Aroden advancing Iomedae's agendas. The cleric is called to unearth an abandoned temple to Aroden one that conceals a relic of importance to Iomedae...so on and so forth.

She has thousands of followers promoting her name what if this follower could accomplish something different?

2.) It could be very interesting. If the character is a country bumpkin who knows nothing of Aroden's demise but discovered his faith through reading older tomes and then is confronted with adventuring and the realization that his precious god is dead, think of all the plot devices associated with those reflections. This can make some great moral fodder and move to the questioning of the origination of his power. Is Aroden dead or are they mistaken? Who is providing the clerical magic? Why?

This is a whole campaign drafted up in minutes....

I would enjoy exploring these nuances as a GM for this player


I have a setting that I've been developing for a few years now that involves the deaths of all the major gods and the rise of new ones from very minor deities. So this topic had to be addressed simply in an historical manner. My thoughts were that while the god was no longer capable of giving spells that there was no reason why the Clerics of the dead gods couldn't still use their energy channeling and healing abilities.

Now, I don't know enough about the Golarian setting to have an opinion on what Iomedae would or wouldn't do specifically, but it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief to think that a god who amicably replaced a fallen god wouldn't grant the new cleric their powers however I believe that god would start sending messages to that cleric as to who exactly they should really be worshipping. (Subtle things at first, but as the character gains power things should get more severe.... perhaps even spontaneous loss of powers at critical moments or no spells being granted for a week.)

I think that it's a nice little idea for character development.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

In one of my gaming groups, where are the Knights of Aroden - which is an Order we all belong to, not just the party itself. The ultimate purpose of this order of knighthood, is to restore Aroden to godhood, but our party is not involved with that. It's just a background thing. We are Knights that do not lose faith, and are dedicated to law and good.

It was tough to get all the players in the group to go with this, but I'm so sick of menageries of heroes with wildly different outlooks, moral compulsions, and goals meeting in taverns and going off on wild adventures together. It has worked out *beautifully.* We don't even have an arcane caster of any type, but we still get by (my PC does have UMDevice).

So I say, go for it! Be one of the faithful that never surrenders what they believe in. That's an AWESOME CHOICE, not a lame one.

Excelsior!


LazarX wrote:


given that there ARE gods who have the virtues that Aroden once had, why would anyone choose talk over demonstrated result?

You're looking at this from a very logical standpoint, but I don't think such a view realistically encompasses the whole of human motivation.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Doug OBrien wrote:
LazarX wrote:


given that there ARE gods who have the virtues that Aroden once had, why would anyone choose talk over demonstrated result?
You're looking at this from a very logical standpoint, but I don't think such a view realistically encompasses the whole of human motivation.

LazarX obviously works at the Jeffersonian.


A Man In Black wrote:
Jal wrote:

Could even dip back to 1st Edition where,

1st to 3rd level divine spells were considered mundane/ritual magic, available to all.
4-6th were spells supplied by minor gods and up
while 7+level spells were major gods only.

That was second edition.

The numbers are wrong, but the concept does indeed go back to First Edition.

First Edition Deities & Demigods, page 9: wrote:

As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through prayer. Third, fourth, and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of of the cleric's deity. These servants range up to the demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot grant spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.

Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only the greater gods may grant 7th level spells.


Pale wrote:

Now, I don't know enough about the Golarian setting to have an opinion on what Iomedae would or wouldn't do specifically, but it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief to think that a god who amicably replaced a fallen god wouldn't grant the new cleric their powers however I believe that god would start sending messages to that cleric as to who exactly they should really be worshipping. (Subtle things at first, but as the character gains power things should get more severe.... perhaps even spontaneous loss of powers at critical moments or no spells being granted for a week.)

But you see she did not do this. She only excepted clerics who knew she granted the powers and who excepted her as Arodens successor.

It is a fact she did not take all his clergy and she did not take those who believed he was alive and rejected her. She like all gods knows he is dead and has been judged, he can not come back.

She simply did not do what you are talking about a 100 years ago when his faith was active and well known. She would not do so now.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Pale wrote:

Now, I don't know enough about the Golarian setting to have an opinion on what Iomedae would or wouldn't do specifically, but it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief to think that a god who amicably replaced a fallen god wouldn't grant the new cleric their powers however I believe that god would start sending messages to that cleric as to who exactly they should really be worshipping. (Subtle things at first, but as the character gains power things should get more severe.... perhaps even spontaneous loss of powers at critical moments or no spells being granted for a week.)

But you see she did not do this. She only excepted clerics who knew she granted the powers and who excepted her as Arodens successor.

It is a fact she did not take all his clergy and she did not take those who believed he was alive and rejected her. She like all gods knows he is dead and has been judged, he can not come back.

She simply did not do what you are talking about a 100 years ago when his faith was active and well known. She would not do so now.

Seeker, did you read Beyond the Vault of Souls? It directly contradicts you on this :)


I have not, but if it contradicts me it also does everything else so far written about the subject I have read.

How does it contradict what I just said?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I have not, but if it contradicts me it also does everything else so far written about the subject I have read.

Not really.

Spoiler:

It features a cult of Aroden worshippers. One of them is a Cleric who used to worship Aroden, then finished his Cleric training as a priest of Iomedae, then due to meddling of certain Protean returns to praying to Aroden. He's listed as a Cleric of Aroden/Iomedae in his statblock. While there are some soul gem McGuffins involved, it seems that he prays to one god and gets his mojo from another, that's how I intrepret it.

Of course, this all is subject to JJ's say, and it wouldn't be the first retcon in Golarion if James says otherwise.


Yes really. We know she did not take those who did not accept her, Aroden's death left many clerics powerless. She did work for Aroden and was his paladin as a mortal. So many took to her as his successor. We know however that those who did not embrace her did not regain clerical power.

Spoiler:

Did he stop worshiping her, or simply tried to return both his god { and her own} to life?

And yes, some stuff slips though and is retconned. Some its mistakes {alot of the earlier 3.5 stuff} and some are writers trying to slip things though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Doug OBrien wrote:
LazarX wrote:


given that there ARE gods who have the virtues that Aroden once had, why would anyone choose talk over demonstrated result?
You're looking at this from a very logical standpoint, but I don't think such a view realistically encompasses the whole of human motivation.

Actually most Human motivation DOES follow logic (It's not just always the logic that we're expecting them to follow). Given choices people will choose approaches that deliver as opposed to approaches that promise. Again the Earth situation doesn't apply as we don't have objectively demonstrated examples of clerics that produce miracles in the real world. However in Golarian clerics DO work demonstrable miracles.


LazarX wrote:
Actually most Human motivation DOES follow logic (It's not just always the logic that we're expecting them to follow).

And yet you're expecting all beings on Golarion to follow your line of logic that is based primarily a metagame view of the world? It's an arbitrary and unsound view.


Doug OBrien wrote:


And yet you're expecting all beings on Golarion to follow your line of logic that is based primarily a metagame view of the world? It's an arbitrary and unsound view.

How is it unsound? A hundred years ago the world went mad, storms lashed over the land, Aroden did not show up, every single one of his clerics lost all power. Then every cleric of every god got the message "Aroden is dead and has been judged"

His temples have been taken over, made into something new or in one case turned into a tourist attraction.

Hell his chosen nation and people torn themselves apart and now have sold themselves into hells service.

Unless you can back up your wild claims with real power, everyone is gonna see you as a mad man or a fool.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:


Unless you can back up your wild claims with real power, everyone is gonna see you as a mad man or a fool.

Which the character may very well be.

Maybe we're approaching this from different angles. I'm not assuming the characters motivations would seem at all logical to other characters or a majority of NPCs. Or that this sort of thing could be commonly excepted by the general population, just that it is a valid premise for a character's motivations.


You could not fake clerical powers for long, and people would look at you hard. As soon as any High ranking member of most churches hear of your Aroden given power, someone will come by to check as they have been told by their god you are a fake.

That and after a hundred year do you really think your Pc is the first con man to lay down those claims?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Doug OBrien wrote:


And yet you're expecting all beings on Golarion to follow your line of logic that is based primarily a metagame view of the world? It's an arbitrary and unsound view.

How is it unsound? A hundred years ago the world went mad, storms lashed over the land, Aroden did not show up, every single one of his clerics lost all power. Then every cleric of every god got the message "Aroden is dead and has been judged"

His temples have been taken over, made into something new or in one case turned into a tourist attraction.

Hell his chosen nation and people torn themselves apart and now have sold themselves into hells service.

Unless you can back up your wild claims with real power, everyone is gonna see you as a mad man or a fool.

When the true clerics of Krynn vanished just before the Cataclysm, for awhile during their four hundred year absence there would be charlatans pretending to their power. A hobby that lost it's popularity when the populace started burning them as witches and fakes when they couldn't back up their claims.

Contributor

There's an interesting line in Carrion Crown: Ashes of Dawn in the write-up about Urgathoa, mentioning that most of the folk of Geb view the Harlot Queen Arazni as a living saint of the goddess of undeath. She's not, but the Pallid Princess accepts this as a quirk of her favored nation.

What this means is that it's up to the god what sort of worship they accept and how. Iomedae may be a lot more uptight than Urgathoa--in fact, you can probably guarantee that--but if there were an Aroden worshipper with a slight side-veneration for "Saint Iomedae," would it be worth her bother to explain the exact current theology if the wannabe cleric was actually following her tenets?

Heck, even Sarenrae hasn't bothered with divine appearances to tell the Qadirans that slavery isn't altogether kosher.

And given the number of clerics of Aroden who've been turned to stone or otherwise been left as time capsules, she's probably pretty used to people who haven't quite got the memo and goes to check Aroden's old mail ever once in a while if she doesn't have an angel specifically appointed to do just this.

After enough spells granted by "Saint Iomedae," most former Arodenites will get the memo, or at least set up a special veneration for "Saint Iomedae" in addition to their useless ones for Aroden.

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