Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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Not only does having an off-balanced group effect game play, it also does not really allow for anyone to have the spot light so to speak. If everyone is a fighter, cleric, what have you, then you lose a bit of the enjoyment when everyone has your abilites.
I haven't seen many "spotlight" problems caused by imbalanced parties during PFS play. The different factions and character options often differentiate the characters as much as their class does.
I have had some Ad Hominems directed at me saying that I should heal with a wand, or that I should plug the bottleneck. That is exactly my point, you can only do one or the other. And if you multiclass to do both then you might be able to do one of these actions, but sub-par.
Some of the responses have been phrased ungenerously, but organized play does favor more generalized builds. I've found that you don't have to give up very much to add versatility to your character. Fighter types can often add a level of other full-BAB classes without pain. Casters can afford to dedicate a feat to broaden their capabilities. Characters shouldn't cripple themselves in the name of versatility, but they shouldn't lock themselves into one narrow role, either.
A few of you suggested bringing more then one character, and I am wondering how you are all leveling more then one. I have been playing every other weekend for three solid months and only now am I approaching level 4 with one.
To level multiple PCs, take advantage of the rule allowing you credit for the first time you GM a scenario. Run a few scenarios and use them to build that second PC (or bump up the first one). It's possible to build a new character every three or four levels and keep them steadily advancing in levels.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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The very nature of Organized Play campaign is that you sit where you get sat. Unless you organize a table ahead of time, you will NEVER be sure what classes will be at the table and there is NO way to gaurantee a balanced table. Arranging tables ahead of time takes a lot of the fun out of these games, imho, as some of the most fun can be had by the randomness and the challenge such will present you with.
That's an area where different tastes come into play. While I enjoy meeting new people and playing with them, I like to know what I'm going into. If I join with two or three "known quantities", I know I have a strong core group to carry any weaker players over the rocky bits. I tend to feel personally responsible if any of my fellow party members falls, so I like knowing that my team can pull together in the crunch.
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All we need to do is make belonging to a faction a capital crime and allow PvP and we can play Paranoia-Pathfinder instead. :Þ
If seen as such, one realizes what they have to do:
1. Survive.
2. Attempt to complete the Pathfinder Society's tasks.
3. Attempt to complete your secret society's mission.
4. Pin the blame for failure on your teammates.It's just a pity that prestige and other rewards aren't meted out after a debriefing.
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A few of you suggested bringing more then one character, and I am wondering how you are all leveling more then one. I have been playing every other weekend for three solid months and only now am I approaching level 4 with one. Now at level 1, sure anyone can make 100 characters, I do have 12 differant level 1s, but our venture captain is wanting us to try and stick with one at least to level 4 so that we do not run out of mods to play. Maybe there is something I missed in the rules where you can make a higher level character?
I think there is a circumstance difference here. Where I live there are are around 10 tables a month that one could seriously make it to if they so wish, so playing 5-7 times a month, which I was doing at one point was no problem. I have four characters ranging from 9th to 3rd, one is to soak up GM credit and is seldom played. One I'm bored with. So I have two characters effectively. You having 100 characters is overdone, two not so much.
Where you live sounds somewhat different. Consider your circumstances and adjust. I'd consider setting up an extra table once a month as you describe it.
As for your venture captain, he is not god and I think he's overstepping in telling you what you should do. Furthermore, with season 2 coming to an end and you still not 4th level and that is your only character I don't think you running out of modules will be a problem. Feel free to ignore him. Third level IMHO is about the right time to start a second character if you're unhappy. You can essentially 'play up' at that point and use your original character only if you need/want to. And yes, you can always find a happy medium.
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I will attempt to address some of the things mentioned my direction.
As far as who would be giving up there character, that would be a personal choice, and that would only be if the GM decided it was nessessary. As far as risk, make it the same as if it was his character, if the pregen dies his character dies. To make it even a little desirable to someone to make that change, allow them either to not have to do a faction quest, or maybe do one at and gain an additional PA?
Asking someone else to play a pregen for any reason falls very close to the 'don't be a jerk' rule. Players can play any character they want at any table, regardless of balance. Noone gets to tell them what to play for any reason
Not only does having an off-balanced group effect game play, it also does not really allow for anyone to have the spot light so to speak. If everyone is a fighter , cleric what have you, then you loose a bit of the enjoyment when everyone has your abilites.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. In my experience playing in unbalanced group has made certain people in shine MORE. In such a group what everyone does matters a lot more than your standard group make up.
I have had some Ad Hominems directed at me saying that I should heal with a wand, or that I should plug the bottleneck. That is exactly my point, you can only do one or the other. And if you multiclass to do both then you might be able to do one of these actions, but sub-par.
That's not quite what we've been saying. What we have been saying is that is a certain issue (say healing) bother you the player, it is up to you the player (or whoever the player is, like those guys at the table who expect you to be the cleric) to make sure that it doesn't become an issue. Anyone can take ranks in UMD if they want to.
I do have to thank you all though, I did give a wake up call to the fighters in our group that wanted to save PA and money and not purchess potions or wands, but expected that I would. I told them I am as good a healer as you are, suck it up and either multi-class or buy some potions because I am here to play an inquisitor, not the fill-in cleric. I gave you all the credit for this epiphany.
You keep saying things like this, as if it's something we should feel bad about. It isn't. It's the way of world-wide campaigns. The fatser your group learns this, the better prepared you all will be.
A few of you suggested bringing more then one character, and I am wondering how you are all leveling more then one. I have been playing every other weekend for three solid months and only now am I approaching level 4 with one. Now at level 1, sure anyone can make 100 characters, I do have 12 differant level 1s, but our venture captain is wanting us to try and stick with one at least to level 4 so that we do not run out of mods to play. Maybe there is something I missed in the rules where you can make a higher level character?
Bring what you want to play and have fun.
The key here is that the only one who can make gaurantees for you is you. If you have a problem, its up to you to fix it. If you think something might become an issue, look into ways to fix it for yourself. Noone gets to make that choice for anyone else.
All that said, if you don't like the group make up and just don't want to deal with another session of complete imbalance, you can always make the choice to not play that week. I'm not trying to be a jerk here (though I'm aware that some of the things I've said may seem that way). I'm just saying the power of your fun is in your hands.
Today I was a lot meaner to people, I use to feel sorry for them that they had no healing spell ect,and that I am a divine caster. But we are all 3-4 now and they make the same money I make I told em so buy healing stuff and I refered them to this thread so they could see that this is apparently how it should be done.
Eventually if we all play that cutthroat maybe there will be some way to try to balance a group in the future, until then its every player for himself.
I think you're missing the point here. People can bring whatever they want to the party and as there is no guarantee of a healer being present they should consider having some form of back-up healing. It's not about being cut-throat, or mean, it's about letting people play the character they want to play. Unconventional party mixes is a large part of the fun. The Society will have cobbled together a group of its members, often at short notice, to deal with the problem at hand. The composition may not be ideal, but it's all they could manage in the time available. Several scenarios start with the comment "Oh well, you'll do I suppose".
The important point is that once the table has formed, you all need to work together as a team no matter what the composition. That may mean people fill unexpected roles, or change their spell selection to compensate. Adaptation and improvisation can go a long way.
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I think some of you missed the point. I would not ASK someone to play another character if they did not want to. I would happily OFFER to play a pregen in some situations.
Yes, my area does seem small compared to yours Kerney.I do not see a huge differance though in bringing a dozen of my own characters, or haveing a dozen pregens. I had mentioned befor ways to make playing a pregen have some consequences so that they are not played with an additude of "I don't care what happens to this guy".
I am not attempting to make anyone feel "bad" about you giving me the truth of things. A lot of the people I play with are really the ones with these concerns, because they like to play barbarians/fighter types and expect someone to stand behind them and heal them. They are just not as proactive or fear redicule so they avoid the forums. I do agree with a lot that has been said, but nothing beats a good balanced group in my experiances in games.
I do respect my venture captain, he puts a lot of work into getting what little we have going locally, mostly because the rest of us lack the time. So if he suggests we hold off on leveling a new character so that we have enough like levels to fill a table I humbly respect his wishes. Hopefully I make it to Tacticon in Denver this year so that will give me an oppertunity to try something new.
If you're willing to play a pregen cleric and give the credit to your Inquisitor then why not just play your Inquisitor and spend 2PA on a wand of CLW? By level 3 everyone should have one of those anyway. In fact I suspect the factions buy them in bulk and hand them out like free pens at a convention...
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If you're willing to play a pregen cleric and give the credit to your Inquisitor then why not just play your Inquisitor and spend 2PA on a wand of CLW? By level 3 everyone should have one of those anyway. In fact I suspect the factions buy them in bulk and hand them out like free pens at a convention...
Man, you guys are not really reading this whole thing just picking bits here and there to respond too aren't you?
I have a wand of cure light. 1d8+1. A cleric lvl 3- Channels 2d6 energy in 30', has cure moderate 2d8+1 per level. Big differance.
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I really don't see what the big issue is. I'll admit, I'm fairly new to PFS, but in the homebrew 3.5 campaign I'm a part of, there weren't any healers, trapfinders (and disablers), or arcane casters until myself or the other newest player brought them to the table and still we ended up playing our martial classes predominantly.
So when I sat down to a table with a fighter, a monk, a ranger, and a summoner, I didn't think anything of it. People play what they want to play and I like that about PFS probably in due because that is what I'm coming from.
And to go along with what others have stated previously, we brought healing potions/wands for ourselves and others, had someone try to find and disable or simply face-pulled traps, and well, don't really need an arcane caster.
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Playing a pregen instead of your own character just for "party balance" seems rather stupid to me. I personally would never pick Kyra in place of my own monk.
The nature of organized play just doesn't really support all time balanced groups. That's exactly why people keep talking about wands and potions. It's the alternative solution to healing. Fortunately acquiring healing is a lot easier in PFSOP than, say, Living Greyhawk, where a Wand of Cure Light Wounds wasn't open until you get a favor for it in an Adventure Record.
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Playing a pregen instead of your own character just for "party balance" seems rather stupid to me. I personally would never pick Kyra in place of my own monk.
The nature of organized play just doesn't really support all time balanced groups. That's exactly why people keep talking about wands and potions. It's the alternative solution to healing. Fortunately acquiring healing is a lot easier in PFSOP than, say, Living Greyhawk, where a Wand of Cure Light Wounds wasn't open until you get a favor for it in an Adventure Record.
I agree I like to play the character I created. However, I make sure that I have enough healing for that character. Honestly, everyone should have a wand of cure light wounds. I have done mods without a cleric just fine.
If fighters at the OP table are not buying wands / potions of cure light knowing that the table is without a healer then they are simply being dense.
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I do respect my venture captain, he puts a lot of work into getting what little we have going locally, mostly because the rest of us lack the time. So if he suggests we hold off on leveling a new character so that we have enough like levels to fill a table I humbly respect his wishes. Hopefully I make it to Tacticon in Denver this year so that will give me an oppertunity to try something new.
1) I'm not ticked off and I hope I don't sound arrogant and self rightous.
2) I have a lot of respect for JP too. He's turing out to be a great venture captain.
3) I'll be running 5 tables at Tacticon. Hope to see you there.
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Man, you guys are not really reading this whole thing just picking bits here and there to respond too aren't you?
I have a wand of cure light. 1d8+1. A cleric lvl 3- Channels 2d6 energy in 30', has cure moderate 2d8+1 per level. Big differance.
I've read the entire post. Currently the heart of the matter is not being addressed. In most cases arguments have been getting caught up in semantics or issues that don't matter.
I think the reason your being met with so much resistance is because it steps on the purity-rules people have identified with PFS and role-playing in general. Most people I know identify PFS as a place of like minded people, often strangers, coming together to advance a character of their making while also being able to socialize with their peers. Furthermore a GM asking a player to play a pre-gen comes close to the RPG taboo of "A GM is all powerful, however they cannot tell me how to play my character."
"Character of their making" is a large part of this issue. People want to play the character they make and want to play with other people with characters of their making. Party composition is seen more of a challenge then it is an obstacle.
So the question is. Why should a GM be allowed to take away that challenge?
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As far as who would be giving up there character, that would be a personal choice, and that would only be if the GM decided it was nessessary.
In a home campaign, if you make a character that doesn't fit into the campaign, you'll probably end up making a new character, one way or another.
We had discussions already about Paladins, and if the Paladin (or any other character concept), is too zealous, they're not really fit for Pathfinder society play.
In PFS, if you character refuses to Explore, Report, and COORPORATE (which includes healing your teammates with a wand of cure light wounds if it's available), your character doesn't fit in with the campaign. In a home game, you'd be making a new character, your PC would be kicked out of the Pathfinders imo.
In PFS, what are the ramifications if someone has a PC that's too radical and doesn't want to cooperate with his teammates? I guess that's the ultimate question.
As far as risk, make it the same as if it was his character, if the pregen dies his character dies.
I suppose that would be ok, but it's not in the rules right now. If you're running at a local shop or home game though, if you really want to do this, no one can stop you (and will know any better).
Not only does having an off-balanced group effect game play, it also does not really allow for anyone to have the spot light so to speak.
I disagree. All fighters are not the same, all rogues are not the same, all clerics are not the same. I think it makes it more interesting tbh, you try your best to find balance but you take what life gives you.
If I'm playing a rogue and another rogue is at the table, it doesn't diminish my enjoyment, but I guess we're different.
I have had some Ad Hominems directed at me saying that I should heal with a wand, or that I should plug the bottleneck.
Ad hominem? lol. I haven't heard that term for years. No one made personal attacks on you.
Yes, we're saying if Cure Light Wounds is on your spell list, you should be using (someone's, not yours necessarily) wand of cure light wounds to heal the party between encounters. Is that so difficult to understand?
If you don't like healing others (because of a character concept), you can make "fluff" changes to the way your CLW wand works. For example, it heals the wound, but it causes pain, like throwing salt or iodine into the wound, while doing so. Or has some other minor cosmetic effect of your choice.
I told them I am as good a healer as you are, suck it up and either multi-class or buy some potions because I am here to play an inquisitor...
It's too expensive to depend on potions scenario after scenario, but purchasing a wand of CLW with PA, that you use, should be viable.
A few of you suggested bringing more then one character, and I am wondering how you are all leveling more then one.
I GM. I also prefer to have more than one character (I have 7) and level them all to varying degrees, than have 1 character get to level 12.
our venture captain is wanting us to try and stick with one at least to level 4 so that we do not run out of mods to play. Maybe there is something I missed in the rules where you can make a higher level character?
Your VC is right, when I said that, I was expecting you would be playing with different players from week-to-week, not the same players.
It sounds like you're gaming with the same people from week-to-week and no one wants to play a healer class. I guess you're running into the same problem if you had a campaign, and no one wanted to play a healer. So it's not a problem with PFS, you'd have the same problem in a home game, but you're trying to use PFS pregens to fix the problem. As long as the penalty of death for your real character exists and that player gets lesser rewards (1 PA max), I'm indifferent to the idea.
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I have a wand of cure light. 1d8+1. A cleric lvl 3- Channels 2d6 energy in 30', has cure moderate 2d8+1 per level. Big differance.
Sure, the in-combat healing is less, however I'm assuming that since you have more firepower, the mobs will go down a lot faster and in-combat healing won't be needed.
To be honest, healing is so weak compared to monster damage output, if you're hoping that your healing will be greater than the incoming damage, you're losing anyway (unless the encounter is about endurance, in which case you'll run out of healing spells quickly and need to rely on the wand anyway).
My cleric never prays for healing spells, I find it's much more optimal to focus on offensive spells or buffs, and I fall back on healing if those aren't suitable for the encounter. I use the efficient wand of CLW in between encounters. For all intents and purposes, I'm doing the exact same thing your inquisitor could be doing and have never had a problem.
Having said that, problems might come at higher level (levels 6+) and spells like Breath of Life become much more important. I'm not GMing there currently, so maybe someone else can comment on that. It very well might be extremely hard to survive at level 6+ without a cleric.
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My cleric never prays for healing spells, I find it's much more optimal to focus on offensive spells or buffs, and I fall back on healing if those aren't suitable for the encounter. I use the efficient wand of CLW in between encounters. For all intents and purposes, I'm doing the exact same thing your inquisitor could be doing and have never had a problem.
You have spontanious casting as a cleric, I do not. That is why you are not running into these issues. Cleric is just one aspect of this, not having enough rogues, fighters, what have you can suck.
FOR THE 1,000 TIME YES I UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF A WAND OF CLW! It is not as amazing as you all think it is, or you are fudgeing your rolls on the d8.
Cool some of you have more then one character, awesome good for you. I don't, most of our players do not, so this is a local issue I guess.
I have beat this topic enough, you don not agree ok fine.
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Nimon,
A few points:
Spontaneous casting as a Cleric: Not useful, and not always available in the way you are thinking. Negative channelers spontaneously cast Inflict instead of Cure spells. And, for the player fo the Cletric, they probably would rather use the more interesting spells than Cure X Wounds all the time.
One of the reasons healbots are rare is because healbots are BORING.
To be honest: If you really feel the lack of healing, but no one else does, maybe it is either something that is only a problem in your mind? Not trying to be offensive, but if no one else in the local group sees a problem with a lack of healing, then forgeta bout it, and enjoy playing your own character.
As others have mentioned, during encounter healing is not an optimal situation. Either you are giving up a round to allow an enemy to do MORE damage to you, or the healing target, or you aren't doing something more effective at preventing the damage to begin with. One of the 1-7 modules actually has a BBEG whose primary goal is to cause at least one character to have to spend time healing instead of beating him up.
Not enough trapfinders/disablers? Find a way to avoid traps in another fashion. There are spells and abilities for others besides the Rogue to deal with traps.
Not enough healing? Many classes can use the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and ANYONE can use a potion of any of the Cure spells.
Not enough Arcane casters? Again, not really necessary, just nice to have. And tehre are many classes that have Arcane spells, besides teh classic Wizard and Sorceror. Bards, for example. And no one ever objects to a skill monkey.
Although having a party comprised solely of skill monkeys can cause other issues....
Note: I GM, but am only a one star GM, so not that many GM credits.
I have a 10th level PC (Fighter 8, Cleric 1, Ranger 1), a 7th level PC (Fighter 7), a 3rd level PC (Gunslinger 3), and a bunch of 1st level PCs with 0-2 XP (Rogue, Cleric, Barbarian, Sorceror, Samurai, etc.).
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I feel your pain, Nimon. The root of the problem is that Wands of Cure Light Wounds are too cheap. Sure, they cost 2 PA, but what else are you going to spend your PA on besides Raise Dead? The pace at which a PFS character goes through all fifty charges of his Wand of Cure Light Wounds is slow enough that he can freely acquire replacement ones whenever his Wand runs low. There's just nothing else in meaningful competition with that periodic two-PA expenditure.
The campaign administration has expressed in the past that the campaign is balanced around a particular wealth curve. Now, in a typical campaign, that PC wealth curve, it includes consumable items, such as Wands of Cure Light Wounds. In PFS, Wands of Cure Light Wounds acquired by PA expenditure are not included in the wealth curve the campaign is balanced around.
So, we have a campaign with easily-acquired Wands of Cure Light Wounds which do not count against a character's total wealth. In other words, PFS characters have effectively infinite free healing.
There are two limitations to this free healing:
-The PC does not gain PA fast enough to maintain his flow of free healing. If this ever happened, it would be a statistical anomaly, a corner case of a PC going through Cure Light Wounds charges so fast that he burns through more than fifty charges for every 2 PA he acquires.
-This healing leaves much to be desired in-combat. So, a player has two ways to overcome this limitation: bring healing that is effective in-combat, or bring enough offense that the party wipes the floor with its opponents in every encounter and doesn't need to heal until afterwards. From the looks of it, Option B is the expected response. Sure, you could play a Cleric, or an Oracle of Life, and keep everyone conscious... or you could play a Fighter, and end combats quickly. It's up to individual taste.
So, if these two limitations are overcome, there is no need for a "balanced party" which includes a healer.
However, the campaign is about to change in several important ways:
-With the advent of slow-track leveling, under the assumption that the "Two Prestige buys a Wand of Cure Light Wounds" option will stay around, slow-track PCs will require, on average, twice as many modules to acquire each Wand of Cure Light Wounds as a fast-track PC does. This slowdown is due to slow-track PCs acquiring Prestige, on average, half as quickly as fast-track PCs. Thus, though unlikely, it might be possible that the stream of infinite free healing may end up becoming finite, because of running into the first limitation above. Only time will tell.
-We are going to receive more things to spend our Prestige on. Thus, these new options may be meaningful enough to make acquiring a Wand of Cure Light Wounds be a meaningful cost to a character. You could get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with your two Prestige, or you could get something else that is also desirable. Thus, if acquiring a Wand of Cure Light Wounds becomes an actual cost, rather than effectively a freebie, riding the stream of infinite healing may prevent characters from acquiring the things they really want for their Prestige. Again, only time will tell.
So, my advice to you, Nimon: Keep playing your Inquisitor, keep requesting that other PCs spend their own PA for their own Wands of Cure Light Wounds, and sit pretty knowing that you are set for Season 3.
-Matt
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Stuff
If wands of CLW weren't cheap, I think it would cause more problems for Nimon because out of combat healing wouldn't even be an option. So truly, his groups would be more unviable.
It seems there will be lots more to do with PA in season 3, but I somehow doubt someone can't find 2 PA to get one. In your groups, do you really go through that many charges each scenario? Do you think groups will go through 8 PA worth of charges per scenario (4 wands)?
I love the fact that 1st level wands are relatively cheap and hope it never changes.
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It seems there will be lots more to do with PA in season 3, but I somehow doubt someone can't find 2 PA to get one. In your groups, do you really go through that many charges each scenario? Do you think groups will go through 8 PA worth of charges per scenario (4 wands)?
Of course they don't.
What's important about the predicted changes to Season 3 is not that healing will or will not be harder to come by, it's that the two Prestige you spent on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds represents an actual cost in terms of other things you could have done with your Prestige.
As an illustration:
Let's say you're given a $5 gift certificate to a candy store. Let's assume for a moment that you like candy of all kinds. You walk into the candy store, and let's say this store sells boxes of Mike-N-Ike's for $1 apiece and nothing else. Naturally, you like candy of all kinds, so you leave the store with five boxes of Mike-N-Ike's and are better off than when you entered.
Now let's say that instead of one item, the store sells two things: Boxes of Mike-N-Ike's for $1 apiece, and boxes of Junior Mints for $1 apiece. If this case, you can still load up on Mike-N-Ike's, and you will still leave the store better off than when you entered, but each box of Mike-N-Ike's you leave the store with represents a box of Junior Mints you could have had instead. There is an actual cost here for the Mike-N-Ike's... in the form of Junior Mints.
It's the same sort of thing with Wands of Cure Light Wounds. At the moment, there really isn't a whole lot else competing for your PA. In Season 3, there just might be. And if the new options are desirable to you, then to you, Wands of Cure Light won't be so cheap anymore.
-Matt
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Yes, wands of CLW will be "worth more" than before (probably on start up, with things like the "Shining Wayfinder" being available now), however PA was always worth something since it could pay for Raise Dead.
Truth is, if you're always topped up, there is much less chance that anyone in the group will die. Prevention is a lot cheaper than paying for a rez later.
In addition, in the previews so far, the additional PA purchases have been 5 PA or less. Sure, you'll have competing priorities, but there's nothing wrong with that. However, it all comes back to staying alive in a scenario, and one of the best ways is to be topped up imo.
It's your PC however, I'm sure everyone has their own opinion on everything. Having said that, I believe in the future you or your healer will own a wand of CLW. Why? Because they're good.
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Nimon,
A few points:
Spontaneous casting as a Cleric: Not useful, and not always available in the way you are thinking. Negative channelers spontaneously cast Inflict instead of Cure spells. And, for the player fo the Cletric, they probably would rather use the more interesting spells than Cure X Wounds all the time.
Spontaneous Casting Not USEFUL! Maybe if you are an evil cleric, sure. But being able to memorize spells other then cures, and still have the ready is very nice.
One of the reasons healbots are rare is because healbots are BORING.
I enjoy playing healers to be honest, I usually max out knowledge too, But my first day at PFS there was three of us, so that was pretty nuts. I made an inquisitor after that and have stuck with him, now of corse those other clerics seem to have dropped off the earth.
To be honest: If you really feel the lack of healing, but no one else does, maybe it is either something that is only a problem in your mind? Not trying to be offensive, but if no one else in the local group sees a problem with a lack of healing, then forgeta bout it, and enjoy playing your own character.
I guess you really havent read my posts. I do not feel any lack of healing at my table. The others I play with are, because they are either straight up fighters/barbarians or rogues. I have tipped em off to buying there own means of healing from now on, so we will see how this next one goes.
As others have mentioned, during encounter healing is not an optimal situation. Either you are giving up a round to allow an enemy to do MORE damage to you, or the healing target, or you aren't doing something more effective at preventing the damage to begin with. One of the 1-7 modules actually has a BBEG whose primary goal is to cause at least one character to have to spend time healing instead of beating him up.
Healing is always situational sure, but this is not just about healing. It is about well balanced groups in general. Lets look at that BBEG you mentioned in a situation with 3 healing clerics. Sounds like it would be a long fight.
Not enough trapfinders/disablers? Find a way to avoid traps in another fashion. There are spells and abilities for others besides the Rogue to deal with traps.
Rogues are the only ones, specially at low levels, that can disable magical traps. There was one mod we played in a maze with very deadly traps at a low level. I do not know how to use the spoiler thing so I will not put it up.
Not enough healing? Many classes can use the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and ANYONE can use a potion of any of the Cure spells.
The benefit of having a cleric is that they add levels to the roll. Ever roll a 1 on a potion or wand?
Not enough Arcane casters? Again, not really necessary, just nice to have. And tehre are many classes that have Arcane spells, besides teh classic Wizard and Sorceror. Bards, for example. And no one ever objects to a skill monkey.
Arcane are the best at handling large amounts of small mobs in a single round. One mod in particular would have taken half as long if we had somone with color spray or sleep.
Although having a party comprised solely of skill monkeys can cause other issues....
Note: I GM, but am only a one star GM, so not that many GM credits.
I have a 10th level PC (Fighter 8, Cleric 1, Ranger 1), a 7th level PC (Fighter 7), a 3rd level PC (Gunslinger 3), and a bunch of 1st level PCs with 0-2 XP (Rogue, Cleric, Barbarian, Sorceror, Samurai, etc.).
I may be new to pathfinder, but I have played rpgs for about 20 years. Nothing beats a balanced group in any game.
My two cents:
I've played in quite a few scenarios with unbalanced parties (including one consisting of two wizards and three bards, if I remember correctly). Most of the time, it isn't a problem, although some of that is due to the fact that quite a few scenarios just aren't that tough.
However, I've played in at least three scenarios where the party really suffered from not being balanced...
...where we basically only avoided a TPK due to GM pity and/or player whining (which always leaves a bad taste in my mouth). So I hesitate to say "don't worry about unbalanced parties", at least if you're playing at tier 5+ (and ESPECIALLY if you're "playing up" at higher tiers).
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My two cents:
I've played in quite a few scenarios with unbalanced parties (including one consisting of two wizards and three bards, if I remember correctly). Most of the time, it isn't a problem, although some of that is due to the fact that quite a few scenarios just aren't that tough.
However, I've played in at least three scenarios where the party really suffered from not being balanced...
One case where we had no powerful ranged offense against a tough flying creature.
One case where we had no Restoration/Death Ward when fighting level-draining undead.
One case where we had no way to counteract Deeper Darkness.
...where we basically only avoided a TPK due to GM pity and/or player whining (which always leaves a bad taste in my mouth). So I hesitate to say "don't worry about unbalanced parties", at least if you're playing at tier 5+ (and ESPECIALLY if you're "playing up" at higher tiers).
Thanks for your insight, I knew I couldn't be the only one affected by this. Your post reminded me of a recent mod we played with no counter to invis, that almost cost one guy a ressurrection fee.
Thanks for your insight, I knew I couldn't be the only one affected by this. Your post reminded me of a recent mod we played with no counter to invis, that almost cost one guy a ressurrection fee.
A bag of powder from the Adventurer's Guide can help with this and isn't class dependent. Not quite as good as glitterdust or a dispel magic, but adequate.
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I always council players that by level 3/4 you must be able to overcome the "big three"...
-Invisible enemies
-Flying opponents
-Darkness
Of course that is after you can deal with swarms. They're EVERYWHERE!!!
And by 5th level, you should have a scroll of Breath of Life. An expensive one-shot resource (875gp) sure, but better than 5450gp or 16 PA.
I always council players that by level 3/4 you must be able to overcome the "big three"...
-Invisible enemies
-Flying opponents
-Darkness
Even if that were possible (I don't think that you're seriously suggesting that every 3rd level PC should be able to counteract Deeper Darkness, e.g.), it just isn't possible to devote a large amount of resources to every contingency. If you want to be good at something, you have to have a certain amount of focus.
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Thanks for your insight, I knew I couldn't be the only one affected by this. Your post reminded me of a recent mod we played with no counter to invis, that almost cost one guy a ressurrection fee.And why did no counter to invis cause you so much trouble?
Has your character elected to pick up a 'counter to invis' now?
-James
It was in one of the newer mods I dont know how to use spoiler thing, but basicly there is an illusion and the real guy is an invis magus that packs a punch.
The mod sheet allows you to buy a detect magic scroll, so now I have it yes.
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Even if that were possible (I don't think that you're seriously suggesting that every 3rd level PC should be able to counteract Deeper Darkness, e.g.), it just isn't possible to devote a large amount of resources to every contingency. If you want to be good at something, you have to have a certain amount of focus.
Actually, I am saying that. There are a number of scenarios that include creatures that have Deeper Darkness as an at-will power. Granted they could just continue to drop it on you, but you should have at least one scroll of Daylight or a Heightened Continual Flame.
Knowledge is power. As long as you know about the "big three" you can make good choices. One of the problems with PFS is that we see too much specialization and then players are upset with the solution to life's problems isn't to smack it in the face with a big stick.
1125gp? 5th level cleric scroll?
You're correct. My calculator made the error. It wasn't me...really :-)
But my point stands--still much cheaper|
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Basically if you are complaining about party balance; make a change or stop complaining. If you aren’t' willing to do something about the issue why would anyone else?
That is what this whole thread is about. How to make a change. I am willing to do something about it. I offered a solution.
I have changed my view a bit though since I started this thread, I use to feel bad for my fellow players since they could not cast divine spells expecting me to be thier healer. Now, I realize they make as much PA and money and me and the surviablity of the group should be a shared responsibility(all aspects of it) and I let them know my position. It has made an impression, maybe not a good one, but an honest one.
I still enjoy balanced groups the best, and think that nothing really beats that.
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Now, I realize they make as much PA and money and me and the surviablity of the group should be a shared responsibility(all aspects of it) and I let them know my position. It has made an impression, maybe not a good one, but an honest one.
Bravo.
Well stated. The PFS metagame is different from other games...sadly, it takes a while for new players to catch on.
I love that you shared this, thank you.
-Pain
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Bravo.
Well stated. The PFS metagame is different from other games...sadly, it takes a while for new players to catch on.
I love that you shared this, thank you.
-Pain
Cool, ya PFS is a differant feel from house games, so it does take some getting used too. I thank you all for your insight again, hopefully this helped bring some light to a the situation and ways of approaching it.
Even if that were possible (I don't think that you're seriously suggesting that every 3rd level PC should be able to counteract Deeper Darkness, e.g.), it just isn't possible to devote a large amount of resources to every contingency. If you want to be good at something, you have to have a certain amount of focus.Actually, I am saying that. There are a number of scenarios that include creatures that have Deeper Darkness as an at-will power. Granted they could just continue to drop it on you, but you should have at least one scroll of Daylight or a Heightened Continual Flame.
I don't know what to tell you. Expecting that every fighter (say) in the Pathfinder Society should invest in Use Magic Device and a whack of wizard and cleric scrolls in case their stuck in a party with no spellcasters is a preposterous waste of resources.
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I don't know what to tell you. Expecting that every fighter (say) in the Pathfinder Society should invest in Use Magic Device and a whack of wizard and cleric scrolls in case their stuck in a party with no spellcasters is a preposterous waste of resources.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that is what he is saying, I think what he is saying that it may not be a bad idea for Non Spell casters also spellcasters to invest in these items for other PCs/or themselves to use if needed and if they can.
I don't know what to tell you. Expecting that every fighter (say) in the Pathfinder Society should invest in Use Magic Device and a whack of wizard and cleric scrolls in case their stuck in a party with no spellcasters is a preposterous waste of resources.I could be wrong, but I don't think that is what he is saying, I think what he is saying that it may not be a bad idea for Non Spell casters also spellcasters to invest in these items for other PCs/or themselves to use if needed and if they can.
Then he is (or you are) misunderstanding my point, which is that an unbalanced group wouldn't necessarily have other PCs who can use such items.
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Then he is (or you are) misunderstanding my point, which is that an unbalanced group wouldn't necessarily have other PCs who can use such items.
Though it does happen, In my experience more often then not there will be someone who can use it, same idea for getting a CLW wand when you can't use it. It is a decent investment because the odds are that somone can use it. The idea is you are playing with odds in your favor.
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I still enjoy balanced groups the best, and think that nothing really beats that.
I think we all feel as you do Nimon :)
If you spread out to the wider con level you can get some horribly unbalanced tables on occasion. For many, these are the memories shared in your organized play war stories. Either how things went rediculously wrong, or how you some how made the 5 man Barabarian table work.
I have a local player still telling stories of the barbarian table from GenCon last year.
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Honestly, I don't think even a balanced group, even if they had the correct spells memorized, or the correct scrolls with them, would be able to predict or be able to use them in the scenario "The Dalsine Affair". The BBG set a great trap and pwns the PCs. End of story.
In "The Darkest Vengeance" (which I'm running this weekend, modified), the correct spell could save you, but it's 100% unlikely a subtier 1-2 a PC would have the money to invest in this kind of consumable on a whim. Most importantly, the scenario wasn't designed to be solved in this manner and (imo) is more fun being solved in the manner that was intended. I don't think the author intended to it to be solved by a 1st level PC carry a scroll with spell _____.