Unbalanced Groups


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Dark Archive

I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

I was thinking one way to fix this would maybe be to allow someone at the table to play a pregen and still get credit. This would be up to the GM of corse if he sees that it would be to hard of a senario with out x type character.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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One thing about PFS is that you learn quickly to make you characters self sufficient, in other words you Buy those Healing Potions or THe Healing Wands that others can use on you for when the healing is not very good in the group.

It is Rare that you Need a Rogue or Need a Wizard, and for healing you can always buy things to heal yourself.

Dark Archive

A healing potion that heals just you is nothing compared to a cleric's channle. You can make your self only so self-sufficent, you use a potion, now that is your turn prepare to die to the thing that almost killed you the turn befor.

There has been plenty of times an arcane user would have really helped when faced with multipul small targets. And a rogue, well disable device and trapfinding is needed. If another character has it that is cool, but otherwise expect to hit every trap on the way.

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Nimon wrote:


A healing potion that heals just you is nothing compared to a cleric's channle. You can make your self only so self-sufficent, you use a potion, now that is your turn prepare to die to the thing that almost killed you the turn befor.

There has been plenty of times an arcane user would have really helped when faced with multipul small targets. And a rogue, well disable device and trapfinding is needed. If another character has it that is cool, but otherwise expect to hit every trap on the way.

That is why Every PC should be self-sufficient, but start out by worrying about yourself.

And traps are rarely used in PFS scenarios. And because of the Low levels of PFS I have never seen a situation where a Wizard is needed

Dark Archive

I am only lvl 3 and been in two heavy trap scenarios. And one with alot of kolbolds where even a low level wizard/sor with colorspray or sleep would have ruled.

But as I said, potions are not good enough to cancle out a cleric. For one drinking one is an AoO, hopefully you can 5' step out of range, and for two that is your standard action, so instead of finishing the thing off in front of you now youll just have to survive another round.

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Nimon wrote:


I am only lvl 3 and been in two heavy trap scenarios. And one with alot of kolbolds where even a low level wizard/sor with colorspray or sleep would have ruled.

But as I said, potions are not good enough to cancle out a cleric. For one drinking one is an AoO, hopefully you can 5' step out of range, and for two that is your standard action, so instead of finishing the thing off in front of you now youll just have to survive another round.

I am not saying those classes are not useful I am disagreeing with your assertion that they are needed, which they are not in the vast majority of cases, especially at lower levels.

Edit: Trust me when I say that Traps are rarely used in Scenarios, you just played 2 of the the few that do.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dragnmoon wrote:
Nimon wrote:


And traps are rarely used in PFS scenarios. And because of the Low levels of PFS I have never seen a situation where a Wizard is needed

Ok while I don't argue with the self sufficiency, but TRAPS are everywhere in PFS, in fact some chronicles have only them for the most part and really just stink without a rouge. That being said you rarely need a balanced party to be successful and have fun, you just need to be creative. The less veteran a party is the more the more balance they need.

Dark Archive

Its not just Wizards,Rogues, and Healers. There was one scenario where we had 3 clerics, a bard, a rogue(bow type) and a guy playing a pregen wizard. I would have loved to plug in a fighter for that one. We did survive, but we went over on time.

So far I have be self-sufficent as the answer to this problem. Nice in theory, but doesnt seem so good in practice.

Maybe layout a "how to be self-suffcient" type thing for me cause here is what I got

Buy Potions-Down Side: Cost money, uses standard action, can provoke AoO.
Buy Scrolls/Wands-Down Side:Cost money, have to be right class type to use these unless have a good use magical device, so back to initial problem.
Buy Magical Items/Special Items-Down Side: Cost money, hopefully you have access to them from previous scenarios, typicaly will use standard action, for magical items will need use magical device unless right class.

Diversify traits,feats,spells-Down Side: now you are all over the place and not particularly good at anything.

Multiclass-Down Side: You will not ever catch up, you will loose spell/feat/special ability progression. You no longer get to play the character you want, might as well play a pregen.

If you just allow people to "sub" out a pregen from time to time, maybe you do it one scenario someone else does it next, you will make a lot of this unnecessary. And the players are not making this call, let the GM make the call, if he truly thinks as is will do it then go for it.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Your statement on multiclassing is rather ignorant. Multiclassing does not hold a character back it grants the character flavor, allowing anyone with a hint of creativity to really give their character depth. And multiclassing does not hinder special ability progression, as you get that classes abilities. And how does it screw up feat progression? Some classes will speed up your progression, since the normal progression is on 1st,3rd, 5th etc.. And as for spell's you might gain spells if you multiclass, and depending on if you choose an arch type some classes don't even get to use their spells anymore such as some paladin and ranger arch types.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Nimon wrote:


Its not just Wizards,Rogues, and Healers. There was one scenario where we had 3 clerics, a bard, a rogue(bow type) and a guy playing a pregen wizard. I would have loved to plug in a fighter for that one. We did survive, but we went over on time.

So far I have be self-sufficent as the answer to this problem. Nice in theory, but doesnt seem so good in practice.

Maybe layout a "how to be self-suffcient" type thing for me cause here is what I got

Buy Potions-Down Side: Cost money, uses standard action, can provoke AoO.
Buy Scrolls/Wands-Down Side:Cost money, have to be right class type to use these unless have a good use magical device, so back to initial problem.
Buy Magical Items/Special Items-Down Side: Cost money, hopefully you have access to them from previous scenarios, typicaly will use standard action, for magical items will need use magical device unless right class.

Diversify traits,feats,spells-Down Side: now you are all over the place and not particularly good at anything.

Multiclass-Down Side: You will not ever catch up, you will loose spell/feat/special ability progression. You no longer get to play the character you want, might as well play a pregen.

If you just allow people to "sub" out a pregen from time to time, maybe you do it one scenario someone else does it next, you will make a lot of this unnecessary. And the players are not making this call, let the GM make the call, if he truly thinks as is will do it then go for it.

Find creative ways to overcome party imbalance. I am playing a Battle Oracle. Oracles have cure light wounds on their spell list. But I built my guy to be more of a fighter with a few spells.

I was the healer (no cleric, no bards, and only a celestial sorcerer and a ranger could help) because I could use a cure light wounds wand.

Sometimes this sort of imbalance will happen.

Dark Archive

EDWARD DEANGELIS wrote:
Your statement on multiclassing is rather ignorant. Multiclassing does not hold a character back it grants the character flavor, allowing anyone with a hint of creativity to really give their character depth. And multiclassing does not hinder special ability progression, as you get that classes abilities. And how does it screw up feat progression? Some classes will speed up your progression, since the normal progression is on 1st,3rd, 5th etc.. And as for spell's you might gain spells if you multiclass, and depending on if you choose an arch type some classes don't even get to use their spells anymore such as some paladin and ranger arch types.

How does multiclassing hold you back?- Since lvl 12 is PFS cap, you will never achieve lvl 12 abilities, spells, ect. For my Inquisitor lvl 12 is greater bane, something rather nice.

So if you do not multiclass you have no creativity or character depth? Good roleplaying gives you character depth and allows you to be creative, not an extra level in a class.

How does it screw up feats? Well for my Inquisitor it would screw up my teamwork feat progression, a fighter or monk or any character that gets more then average feats would loose out.

I know I am not the only one at our the tables I have sat at and winched when we find out there is no healer.They all typically look at me and say "Oh wait, you are a healer type right?"

"Ya I have one cure light wounds and no spontanious casting, you are all on your own" is my response to that. And apparently it was the right one according to you all. So never mind then.

Sovereign Court

Nimon wrote:
"Ya I have one cure light wounds and no spontanious casting, you are all on your own" is my response to that. And apparently it was the right one according to you all. So never mind then.

I am glad you were able to figure it out.

Pro tip: wands are way better then potions

Silver Crusade 2/5

Not all lvl 12 or such abilities are needed, having different sets of abilities can lead up to a better build then just a singular class abilities.
And I never said that if you don't multiclass you have no creativity or can create character depth. Those are your own words you made by making assumptions on my statement. Multiclassing allows you to have different layers of depth to your character, normally more so then just a single classed character, but that is based on the player and their abilities to come up with such backgrounds on their character.

So for your character it would screw up teamwork feats, but that is your character, perhaps a monk who wants a few more feats adds a few levels of fighter and that increases his amount of feats in a good manner. So that is an upside, yours is a downside, so that would make it overall even. So it would not be a downside at all.

And if everyone winces when there is no healer, perhaps someone should make one, or a variant such as a druid or a bard, as they can cast some heal spells and use wands. Or...hey someone could multiclass, into an oracle,or cleric, or even a druid. that way they can heal and have other useful skills.

As for your all on your own line, yeah that seems like a good idea, I am gonna take care of my character and mine alone, can lead to dead parties. Also if you play a character with such an attitude it should affect the alignment that you choose to play him as.

Dark Archive

EDWARD DEANGELIS wrote:
Your statement on multiclassing is rather ignorant. Multiclassing does not hold a character back it grants the character flavor, allowing anyone with a hint of creativity to really give their character depth. And multiclassing does not hinder special ability progression, as you get that classes abilities. And how does it screw up feat progression? Some classes will speed up your progression, since the normal progression is on 1st,3rd, 5th etc.. And as for spell's you might gain spells if you multiclass, and depending on if you choose an arch type some classes don't even get to use their spells anymore such as some paladin and ranger arch types.

Allowing anyone with a hint of creativity to really give their charracter depth. Those are your words see them above these? That implies that if you do not, then you have not even a hint of Creativity.

Yes there is no healer maybe someone should make one? Like what on the spot? How about just letting them play one and get credit for the game? GMs running the game get credit for a character they are not playing.

My Character is LN Inquisitor Diety-Zon_Kuthon of the Cheliax faction so sure he can say screw you take care of yourself. But in general is that the kind of group you want to be part of?

Do any of you run house games that discombobulated where you don't sit down together and figure out whos playing what? Typically you want a well rounded group, and that is all I am asking for it makes the game a lot more enjoyable;not only for practicle reasons, but also to allow everyone a chance at the spot light.If everyone is playing the same class, that can be hard to achieve.

Shadow Lodge 1/5

Nimon wrote:
How does multiclassing hold you back?- Since lvl 12 is PFS cap, you will never achieve lvl 12 abilities, spells, ect. For my Inquisitor lvl 12 is greater bane, something rather nice.

Since you can use your level twelve abilities for one whole adventure, why is it a goal worth having?

Nimon wrote:
So if you do not multiclass you have no creativity or character depth? Good roleplaying gives you character depth and allows you to be creative, not an extra level in a class.

No, multiclassing is a tool. For example, my Paladin has a 1 level dip in Ranger. Why? more diverse skills, fit the character concept, which made me more surviveable at lower levels i.e.

Nimon wrote:
How does it screw up feats? Well for my Inquisitor it would screw up my teamwork feat progression, a fighter or monk or any character that gets more then average feats would loose out.

Never played an inquisitor and so I'll take you word for it. But you need to look at the other side too. Does it make sense for a bow fighter to dip a level in Rogue to do another d6 on his frequently flat footed opponents along with all those skills that become class skills. It's definately better than 'one feat' and one bab. Same goes for a swashbuckler fighter/rogue.

Nimon wrote:
I know I am not the only one at our the tables I have sat at and winched when we find out there is no healer.They all typically look at me and say "Oh wait, you are a healer type right?"

Well, carry a wand of cure light wounds to do the healing for you and play your character. That's what people mean by self sufficent. You don't have to be the best at it, just diverse enough that bases are covered. You look at your character and look at your weaknesses and plug as many as possible without taking too much from your concept. Make sure you have decent init or can take a blow. Make sure your heavily armored fighter can swim etc.

Sovereign Court 4/5

PFSOP is different. Imbalanced groups will happen. Potions are ok, wands of CLW (also known as Happy Sticks) are something nearly everyone gets just because they are so useful. You can never rely on having a cleric or druid or other divine caster in your group.

Regarding multiclass: Multiclassing, when done right, will make your character better at that he/she does. The focus changes. A cleric 1/inquisitor 11 would definitely have its focus elsewhere, like those domain abilities. A properly done Cleric/Barbarian will have a ridiculous land speed etc.

Home games and organized play are different. In home games you might talk about party composition before you start. Here you bring a character to the table that either fits the tier or is most usable in the group. Thus you wouldn't have any problems with a 1st-level party as you could create this healer or rogue or whatever if it is needed.

And regarding traps there are numerous traits that make Disable Device a class skill. The possibilities of customization are endless.

If you were to act disrespectfully towards other characters just because of this healing imbalance, I don't know what to say. A happy stick is a very formidable way of healing, especially since using just 2 PA points you get a free 750gp purchase, a 1st-level wand, I mean.


One can get some unusual tables in PFS play, but really the self-sufficiency goal helps a lot. Even my fighter carries a wand of cure light wounds and I don't think I have sat at a table yet where there wasn't somebody that could use that on him when needed.

Are there situations where a certain class would excel? Certainly. But does not having that class hurt that much? Not usually.

Sovereign Court 3/5

I, too, have felt the sting of an unbalanced party. Too often have I been forced to travel without anyone to place on us Haste or Heroism or Fly or Improved Invisibility or any of the wonderful spells which make adventuring so much more enjoyable.

And I do value the company of a charismatic priest; the wonderful feeling of security that comes with instantaneous closing of wounds, without resorting to slow, inefficient wands, and the utter lack of skill in other areas, meaning that he is rather likely to show modesty and respect while I am in conversation!

It's those unintelligent thugs which are the problem, barreling along with weapons so overcompensating that they require both hands to operate, recklessly engaging their targets with no sense of tactics or civility. Always getting in the way, both in skirmishes and in conversation, and always slaughtering everything we meet, as if it were a race towards the climactic end instead of a smooth, artful duel of wits and skill, with the proper amount of restraint shown along the way to a wondrous final expenditure of effort.

It's a shame that so many of my fellow Pathfinders are unable to handle anything but the most straightforward of tasks.

-Gabrielle d'Apcher

The Exchange 3/5

Nimon wrote:
I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

Truly, Nimon, PFS play is different than a home campaign. Party balance is optional and rarely actually 'needed'. The metagame for PFS favors more balanced builds rather than uni-taskers.

Build your character to contribute in a variety of ways and you'll be fine.

Also, this may help: What to Expect at a PFS table.

-Pain

p.s. Fearing riling up the Mattbeast, but so be it.

5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson

Nimon wrote:
I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

While I prefer to play generalists able to fill in multiple party roles, that isn't the only way to ensure your party operates efficiently. In your shoes, I'd discuss my concerns with a couple of the people I most often play with, discovering what character roles they prefer. If you cooperate to build your characters into a sound team, you can ensure that you have most needs covered.

As long as the character levels approximately match, most event coordinators will try to accommodate your desire to be with particular players. I often deal with people who want to sit with friends or family members, and usually manage to seat them together.

Dark Archive

Sir_Wulf wrote:
Nimon wrote:
I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

While I prefer to play generalists able to fill in multiple party roles, that isn't the only way to ensure your party operates efficiently. In your shoes, I'd discuss my concerns with a couple of the people I most often play with, discovering what character roles they prefer. If you cooperate to build your characters into a sound team, you can ensure that you have most needs covered.

As long as the character levels approximately match, most event coordinators will try to accommodate your desire to be with particular players. I often deal with people who want to sit with friends or family members, and usually manage to seat them together.

Today went alittle smoother, some of the people are starting to be more of a constant at the table making things alittle more reliable, but here in Colorado Springs, we have a pretty big group and active group so that is where I was seeing just chaos at the table.

Today I was a lot meaner to people, I use to feel sorry for them that they had no healing spell ect,and that I am a divine caster. But we are all 3-4 now and they make the same money I make I told em so buy healing stuff and I refered them to this thread so they could see that this is apparently how it should be done.

Eventually if we all play that cutthroat maybe there will be some way to try to balance a group in the future, until then its every player for himself.

Dark Archive

Kerney wrote:


Well, carry a wand of cure light wounds to do the healing for you and play your character. That's what people mean by self sufficent. You don't have to be the best at it, just diverse enough that bases are covered. You look at your character and look at your weaknesses and plug as many as possible without taking too much from your concept. Make sure you have decent init or can take a blow. Make sure your heavily armored fighter can swim etc.

Funny that you quoted everything I said EXCEPT my pros and cons of the wand of cure light wounds. A wand is nice sure, it still is going to cost money or PA, still useing a standard action, and if you are not a spell caster then I hope your use magical device is high. And a wand does nothing for you when you are in the negatives.

4/5

Painlord wrote:
Nimon wrote:
I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

Truly, Nimon, PFS play is different than a home campaign. Party balance is optional and rarely actually 'needed'. The metagame for PFS favors more balanced builds rather than uni-taskers.

Build your character to contribute in a variety of ways and you'll be fine.

Also, this may help: What to Expect at a PFS table.

-Pain

Excellent reference.

The best thing to do is to have fun.

Certainly organized play has its downsides, but party balance or balanced builds isn't one of them. I've seen inept to optimized character builds, usually it's a mix.

It's all in how the group works together.

Shoot, just finished a combat module with 3 wizards and a rogue... no deaths and 2 Wiz's still had all their 4th level spells at the end (and I play a Diviner, lol...)

3/5

Painlord wrote:
p.s. Fearing riling up the Mattbeast, but so be it.

Ehh, don't worry about it. When you've got a thread in which there is actual discussion regarding whether a healer is a critical component to a party, when statements like this one exist...

Dragnmoon wrote:
I am not saying those classes are not useful I am disagreeing with your assertion that they [healer classes] are needed, which they are not in the vast majority of cases, especially at lower levels.

...this thread tells us that you can get away with doing pretty much whatever you want in PFS.

-Matt

Grand Lodge 3/5

Yeah, after going thru a certain Season 0 scenario with 3 rogues, a fighter, and a barbarian (back when vermin and undead were immune to sneak attack), I no longer worry too much about unbalanced parties.

But it was good that we all had healing potions.

Scarab Sages

I kind of like the added challenge. My last PFS game a couple of weeks ago were people new to the game. I have a Level 2 fighter and the new people all wanted fighters, so they played two pre-gen fighters, for a total of three fighters, one wizard, and nothing else. The adventure was difficult to get through, but we did it. I always make sure I have 4 potions of CLW prior to starting any adventure. We went through all of them, but it was still fun (albeit more difficult), and it forced us to think creatively on how to get past certain parts (by the way, wizards are so squishy!) with our tank-heavy party.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mattastrophic wrote:
Painlord wrote:
p.s. Fearing riling up the Mattbeast, but so be it.

Ehh, don't worry about it. When you've got a thread in which there is actual discussion regarding whether a healer is a critical component to a party, when statements like this one exist...

Dragnmoon wrote:
I am not saying those classes are not useful I am disagreeing with your assertion that they [healer classes] are needed, which they are not in the vast majority of cases, especially at lower levels.

...this thread tells us that you can get away with doing pretty much whatever you want in PFS.

-Matt

Matt, I am trying to figure out how you are getting that from my statement?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

One of the most entertaining games that I have played in PFS was with a table of 3 sorcerers and a bard.

It sounds like a setup for a joke, "3 sorcerers and a bard walk into a costume shop." to me it is proof that having a good time has mostly to do with your attitude and not the classes of players at the table.

YMMV

Scarab Sages 1/5

I always figure the Society puts these teams together with personel that are the very best for accomplishing the tasks.

Just because my character doesn't understand why some clerk would send 4 bards on a misson to fight hundreds of undead bunnies, he understands that the clerks know what they're doing. In an organization "they" always know better. :-)

Kind of takes the mini/max out of party building, IMHO

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dojohouty wrote:

I always figure the Society puts these teams together with personel that are the very best for accomplishing the tasks.

Just because my character doesn't understand why some clerk would send 4 bards on a misson to fight hundreds of undead bunnies, he understands that the clerks know what they're doing. In an organization "they" always know better. :-)

Kind of takes the mini/max out of party building, IMHO

I have never seen it that way, I always describe it to my players they picked what they had at the time, not necessarily the best team.

That helps when I get complaints about faction missions they can't perform them and they ask if they can't do it why would they have been sent.

Liberty's Edge

Nimon wrote:


I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

I was thinking one way to fix this would maybe be to allow someone at the table to play a pregen and still get credit. This would be up to the GM of corse if he sees that it would be to hard of a senario with out x type character.

This is where optimizers are problem children.

If everyone is versatile, you should be fine. If you have a bunch of one trick ponies all doing the same trick...

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ciretose wrote:
If you have a bunch of one trick ponies all doing the same trick...

You have a Circus act?...;)

Liberty's Edge

Dragnmoon wrote:
ciretose wrote:
If you have a bunch of one trick ponies all doing the same trick...
You have a Circus act?...;)

Who wants to see 4 bearded ladies?

Variety is the spice of life!

Liberty's Edge

Eric Brittain wrote:

One of the most entertaining games that I have played in PFS was with a table of 3 sorcerers and a bard.

It sounds like a setup for a joke, "3 sorcerers and a bard walk into a costume shop." to me it is proof that having a good time has mostly to do with your attitude and not the classes of players at the table.

YMMV

This is also a function of Bards. Bards aren't that awesome at a single thing, but they can do everything. So you never have a situation when having a Bard in a party doesn't help.

Sovereign Court

Nimon wrote:
Sir_Wulf wrote:
Nimon wrote:
I am new to PFS, but I enjoy it a alot. One problem I have run into with this type of set up is getting in a group with either-No Healer-No Rogue Type-Or no Arcane Caster. These situations can suck, and I couldn't see any competent orginization running like this.

While I prefer to play generalists able to fill in multiple party roles, that isn't the only way to ensure your party operates efficiently. In your shoes, I'd discuss my concerns with a couple of the people I most often play with, discovering what character roles they prefer. If you cooperate to build your characters into a sound team, you can ensure that you have most needs covered.

As long as the character levels approximately match, most event coordinators will try to accommodate your desire to be with particular players. I often deal with people who want to sit with friends or family members, and usually manage to seat them together.

Today went alittle smoother, some of the people are starting to be more of a constant at the table making things alittle more reliable, but here in Colorado Springs, we have a pretty big group and active group so that is where I was seeing just chaos at the table.

Today I was a lot meaner to people, I use to feel sorry for them that they had no healing spell ect,and that I am a divine caster. But we are all 3-4 now and they make the same money I make I told em so buy healing stuff and I refered them to this thread so they could see that this is apparently how it should be done.

Eventually if we all play that cutthroat maybe there will be some way to try to balance a group in the future, until then its every player for himself.

I dont understand how can you play a versatile class and not help the group? Inquistor can use wands and if no one else can heal why not help balance the party by stepping into that role? Its not cutthroat if everyone comes prepared with supplies to help out. In the society group I run with almost every one grabs a wand early on. (2 PA is nothing and my level 5 bard just ran out of his first wand) If you are a fighter its simple, pass the wand to a member who can use it; maybe even an inquisitor. At the end of the session the player passes the wand back to the fighter or whatever.

Now some folks may not be privy to this so you have to point them in the right direction like this thread tries to do. Others of course dont care and think of party roles as defined by class. By being self sufficient you help on two fronts. You take the strain of lacking an ability off the group and protect yourself from people who refuse to be adaptable. We are trying to help everyone here, not just you friend!

Pathfinder allows versatility so characters can adapt to their groups. I dont understand how an organization could be competent when it needs particular roles filled or it fails. The ability of the Pathfinder system to achieve this is the very reason I use it and not another less versatile one.

4/5

ciretose wrote:
Eric Brittain wrote:

One of the most entertaining games that I have played in PFS was with a table of 3 sorcerers and a bard.

It sounds like a setup for a joke, "3 sorcerers and a bard walk into a costume shop." to me it is proof that having a good time has mostly to do with your attitude and not the classes of players at the table.

YMMV

This is also a function of Bards. Bards aren't that awesome at a single thing, but they can do everything. So you never have a situation when having a Bard in a party doesn't help.

Skillwise and out of combat, multiple Bards will have you covered. But from levels 1-7, you will get significantly less use from every Bard after the first--unless the other Bards have archetypes that swap out Inspire Courage (after level 7, one of the Bards can use Dirge of Doom or Inspire Greatness).

For instance, my local PFS group is small enough that we only run one table, and there's a pretty consistent player of a Taldan Battle Herald in training. When a new player wanted to make a snooty Taldan Bard from the upper courts of Oppara, I convinced him to play a Court Bard (swapping out Inspire Courage for hurling insults at the enemies to give them penalties). Since he has always been partied up with the Battle Herald up to this point, this single decision has more than doubled his contributions to the party.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Nimon,

It is not "EVeryone out for himself" but, rather, "How can we make this diverse group work well together?"

Since you have Cure Light Wounds on your spell list, you can provbide out of combat healing using wands of Cure Light Wounds, hopefully everyone in the party brought one, so that the charge usage can be spread out between them...

During combat, the party should do everything it can to avoid needing emergency healing, so having a Cleric to channel energy is nice, but not essential.

As an example, I played a game yesterday which consisted of 4 characters, Fighter, Fighter, Rogue & Cleric. Sounds great, doesn't it? Well, the group was a bit unusual, as neither fighter was designed to be a big damage dealer, and the rogue was designed as a skill monkey, not a combat rogue. Made the combats last longer than normal, as we had to plink away, rather than make fast kills.

And circumstances made the Cleric's channel energy worse than useless, so no real in-combat healing of any note. We made it through, though, and had no deaths, just a couple of close calls. We did burn a lot of wand charges, and some potions.

5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson

When a table lacks healing, I point out if the scenario is set in a place where it might be credible to purchase healing.

It became a running gag during the first PFS session I played: Our cleric-deprived party, battered and bruised, repeatedly dragged itself down to the Temple of Sarenrae. We woke the increasingly bleary-eyed priest every hour or two, keeping the aggravated man up most of the night...

"You do know that I have to conduct services at dawn, don't you?"

5/5

Deussu wrote:

And regarding traps there are numerous traits that make Disable Device a class skill. The possibilities of customization are endless.

But only a rogue can disable certain traps.

Note that even ninjas lack the /trapfinding/ class feature that allows rogues to disable magical traps.

Dark Archive

tlotig wrote:
Deussu wrote:

And regarding traps there are numerous traits that make Disable Device a class skill. The possibilities of customization are endless.

But only a rogue can disable certain traps.

Note that even ninjas lack the /trapfinding/ class feature that allows rogues to disable magical traps.

Shh, just buy a wand it does every thing from traps to healing and can even plug a bottle neck for you.

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nimon wrote:

I am only lvl 3 and been in two heavy trap scenarios. And one with alot of kolbolds where even a low level wizard/sor with colorspray or sleep would have ruled.

But as I said, potions are not good enough to cancle out a cleric. For one drinking one is an AoO, hopefully you can 5' step out of range, and for two that is your standard action, so instead of finishing the thing off in front of you now youll just have to survive another round.

I agree, a cleric is very useful, sometimes it's worth being able to bring your own cleric (have a couple of characters on the go if you can so you have options).

In some mods at especially at low levels without a cleric, a shade or wraith can mess the group up. And charging into a room without a rogues check can be very dangerous.

It's great to go for flavour, multi if you like etc.. but don't forget what role your character might be filling in the party. If you are the wall be a wall either tough behind the armour or so quick the emeny can't hit you etc...

Sovereign Court

Nimon wrote:


I was thinking one way to fix this would maybe be to allow someone at the table to play a pregen and still get credit. This would be up to the GM of corse if he sees that it would be to hard of a senario with out x type character.

So lets say this change was made. How do you decide who has to ditch their character and play the pregen?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5

Nimon wrote:
tlotig wrote:
Deussu wrote:

And regarding traps there are numerous traits that make Disable Device a class skill. The possibilities of customization are endless.

But only a rogue can disable certain traps.

Note that even ninjas lack the /trapfinding/ class feature that allows rogues to disable magical traps.

Shh, just buy a wand it does every thing from traps to healing and can even plug a bottle neck for you.

I know you're being sarcastic here Nimon, but that's exactly the point. If you are concerned about missing a bottle neck at the table, it is up to YOU to try to cover it.

The very nature of Organized Play campaign is that you sit where you get sat. Unless you organize a table ahead of time, you will NEVER be sure what classes will be at the table and there is NO way to gaurantee a balanced table. Arranging tables ahead of time takes a lot of the fun out of these games, imho, as some of the most fun can be had by the randomness and the challenge such will present you with.

The Exchange 3/5

cblome59 wrote:
The very nature of Organized Play campaign is that you sit where you get sat. Unless you organize a table ahead of time, you will NEVER be sure what classes will be at the table and there is NO way to gaurantee a balanced table. Arranging tables ahead of time takes a lot of the fun out of these games, imho, as some of the most fun can be had by the randomness and the challenge such will present you with.

+1.

Bezactly.

2/5 *

I've seen a few scenarios where a rogue is highly desirable, but never "needed". Trap damage can be soaked and healed, so it isn't a problem. I'd actually argue that having a rogue in a 4 person group is actually a disadvantage, I find rogues very weak and not very good for PFS play compared to open-ended campaigns.

Wizards are game changers, but I've never seen a scenario that "needed" a Wizard.

Healing is important but you can do "ok" even with only UMD and a wand of CLW.

There have also been scenarios (at Gencon) where 7 martial PCs have plowed through the scenario with no healer, but I think they were at a disadvantage doing so, and probably good players.

Event coordinators usually try to put a healer in each group. In home games, we organize.

Personally, my solution to the problem is to have a healer at each tier, so I heal when needed or play DPS if we already have a healer.

I strongly dislike having more than 1 healer in a group (Ex. 3 clerics), the DPS is too low.

Btw, I disagree with letting players play a pregen and getting full credit (for another PC) beyond subtier 1-2. There's no risk involved playing a pregen, and there should be.

Bad party composition? Too bad, that's why you make alternate characters. Someone make up a 1st level PC (with CLW on his spell list), pass him a wand of CLW, and there you go. Also, every PC should have a wand of CLW, it shouldn't be just "the healer".

One of the tenets of being a Pathfinder is cooperate. If you can't cooperate and do what needs to be done (using a CLW wand on someone, even though your character hates every moment of it), your PC shouldn't be a Pathfinder.

1/5

If you really feel a party without Trapfinding is useless and you want to play a Ninja (or a Rogue with an archetype) then drop in a level of Bard (Archivist). Problem solved - you get Trapfinding back, a bunch of knowledge skills set to trained, an interesting Bardic Performance, and a few more spells than you can get as a Ninja alone.

Liberty's Edge

I feel that the OP wants to have an optimized group of PCs every time he plays a PFS scenario.

That is just not going to happen.

You will have to contend with subpar firepower or healing or casting or trapfinding. The only abilities you will be able to always rely on are the ones you bring to the table.

But then, the authors of the scenarios know this too and presumably took it into account.

All the advice given above is good advice. Also, you have to adapt your tactics to play up your group's strengths. In a group without a healer, your side is presumably stronger on firepower and/or offensive casting. Use this to win combats quickly, even though you will be very low on HP at the end, and then you drink your potions or UMD your wands of CLW to go back to full HP before continuing the adventure.

4/5

Fact is people have been playing this way since PFS started, do level up, do reach level cap, and do get through the missions they are tasked with and have fun doing it. All without maximizing group composition.

Dark Archive

When sitting at a table what is the first question:
Generally from my experience is do we have a positive channeler?
Second is there a heavy armor full BAB guy?
I have an alchemist(1)/monk(5) who ended up being the "front line guy" which was tough, my ac is bad.

I have not heard "where is the rogue?". And in the PFS system I am surprised to sit at a table with a wizard.

Dark Archive

I will attempt to address some of the things mentioned my direction.

As far as who would be giving up there character, that would be a personal choice, and that would only be if the GM decided it was nessessary.

As far as risk, make it the same as if it was his character, if the pregen dies his character dies. To make it even a little desirable to someone to make that change, allow them either to not have to do a faction quest, or maybe do one at and gain an additional PA?

Not only does having an off-balanced group effect game play, it also does not really allow for anyone to have the spot light so to speak. If everyone is a fighter , cleric what have you, then you loose a bit of the enjoyment when everyone has your abilites.

I have had some Ad Hominems directed at me saying that I should heal with a wand, or that I should plug the bottleneck. That is exactly my point, you can only do one or the other. And if you multiclass to do both then you might be able to do one of these actions, but sub-par.

I do have to thank you all though, I did give a wake up call to the fighters in our group that wanted to save PA and money and not purchess potions or wands, but expected that I would. I told them I am as good a healer as you are, suck it up and either multi-class or buy some potions because I am here to play an inquisitor, not the fill-in cleric. I gave you all the credit for this epiphany.

A few of you suggested bringing more then one character, and I am wondering how you are all leveling more then one. I have been playing every other weekend for three solid months and only now am I approaching level 4 with one. Now at level 1, sure anyone can make 100 characters, I do have 12 differant level 1s, but our venture captain is wanting us to try and stick with one at least to level 4 so that we do not run out of mods to play. Maybe there is something I missed in the rules where you can make a higher level character?

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