Faiths of Purity actually gives a Code of Conduct for each Paladin depending on which of the 7 greater gods of good they worship. There are significant differences.
For instance it's expected that a Paladin of Torag might straight up LIE to your face to protect "dwarven cultural interests" and that once he smites the evil he "scatters their family"
I played a dwarven Paladin who walked into a town of Teiflings, Detected Evil, confirmed they were all evil (wasn't a stretch it was an area with an opening to Hell nearby) and he used Alignment Channel to wipe out 3/4 of the town. The other Paladin in the party gathered up the surviving children to ship to a temple to be raised but didn't blink at my Paladin finishing off all the adults.
If I hadn't been a worshiper of Torag (and more specifically Angorrad Torag's aggressive son, the Dwarven God of Tactics and Battle) I wouldn't have been shocked at all to need to atone. But the dwarven interpretation is ALL threats to the race must be extinguished and their culture needs to BURN so no future threats can arise from the ashes.
Iomedae doesn't roll like that. Saranerae is in between. Erastil would probably be ok with it. Shelyn, Desna and Cayden would have dropped me on the spot.
tl;drLook man, all I'm saying is that, if some guy came to town and said I can smell the evil in the air and decapitated a buddy of mine. I'd be scared s$~#less, and no amount of, "it's cool, God gave me powers." is gonna change that. It makes no difference if God actually gives people powers or not. I'm not going anywhere near that guy, and neither is anyone I care about. Detecting as evil does NOT mean is totally got an evil scheme cooked up for world domination. If you happen to be an especially miserable person, you may be of an Evil alignment. Doesn't make you firing squad worthy. And then there's the Jimbo guy. Who says (for whatever reason, maybe HE'S evil) "hey God gave me powers too! And look my exgirlfriend is SOOO evil!" See, this isn't a problem if paladins exemplify equal rights to all and due process.
I'll be honest with you: screw the paladin, if I heard there was a nest of goblins outside of my city in the real world, I'd pee myself and faint. :-) My point, perhaps too aggressively expressed, is that fantasy worlds and the real world have different conditions right from the ground up, so what would be utterly necessary in our world (due process -- and yes, I am as firm a believer in that as you're going to find) is wholly out of place in a world without courts, lawyers, jails, or even laws to support it. So, I apologize for getting all up in your face about it -- it's this damned internet thing, it makes a-holes of the best of people. Not that I'm the best of people or anything, but you get my meaning.
I'll be honest with you: screw the paladin, if I heard there was a nest of goblins outside of my city in the real world, I'd pee myself and faint. :-) My point, perhaps too aggressively expressed, is that fantasy worlds and the real world have different conditions right from the ground up, so what would be utterly necessary in our world (due process -- and yes, I am as firm a believer in that as you're going to find) is wholly out of place in a world without courts, lawyers, jails, or even laws to support it. So, I apologize for getting all up in your face about it -- it's this damned internet thing, it makes a-holes of the best of people. Not that I'm the best of people or anything, but you get my meaning.tl;drLook man, all I'm saying is that, if some guy came to town and said I can smell the evil in the air and decapitated a buddy of mine. I'd be scared s$~#less, and no amount of, "it's cool, God gave me powers." is gonna change that. It makes no difference if God actually gives people powers or not. I'm not going anywhere near that guy, and neither is anyone I care about. Detecting as evil does NOT mean is totally got an evil scheme cooked up for world domination. If you happen to be an especially miserable person, you may be of an Evil alignment. Doesn't make you firing squad worthy. And then there's the Jimbo guy. Who says (for whatever reason, maybe HE'S evil) "hey God gave me powers too! And look my exgirlfriend is SOOO evil!" See, this isn't a problem if paladins exemplify equal rights to all and due process.
Yeah, I definitely get your meaning. And I understand the idea that good and evil are real forces in fantasy that CAN be identified by a spell. And certain things like goblins, especially goblins, should never be trusted in the first place. But it also seems that, in a world with goblins and all that, human life should be even more precious. Although, I must say, I've not looked into how thorough a judicial system Golarion has.
Faiths of Purity actually gives a Code of Conduct for each Paladin depending on which of the 7 greater gods of good they worship. There are significant differences.
For instance it's expected that a Paladin of Torag might straight up LIE to your face to protect "dwarven cultural interests" and that once he smites the evil he "scatters their family"
I played a dwarven Paladin who walked into a town of Teiflings, Detected Evil, confirmed they were all evil (wasn't a stretch it was an area with an opening to Hell nearby) and he used Alignment Channel to wipe out 3/4 of the town. The other Paladin in the party gathered up the surviving children to ship to a temple to be raised but didn't blink at my Paladin finishing off all the adults.
If I hadn't been a worshiper of Torag (and more specifically Angorrad Torag's aggressive son, the Dwarven God of Tactics and Battle) I wouldn't have been shocked at all to need to atone. But the dwarven interpretation is ALL threats to the race must be extinguished and their culture needs to BURN so no future threats can arise from the ashes.
Iomedae doesn't roll like that. Saranerae is in between. Erastil would probably be ok with it. Shelyn, Desna and Cayden would have dropped me on the spot.
I think Iomedae rolls closer to that than you'd expect. I'd put Iomedae closer to Torag than Sarenae, actually, because as I read the codes in Faiths of Purity (AWESOME BOOK!!!!) Sarenrae's paladins believe in offering redemption, while Iomedae's paladins are more about stopping threats.
The clause I'm thinking of is the one about, "When in doubt, I may force an enemy to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives." It's interesting that it's phrased that way, because two things stick out to me:
1. The word "may." It indicates discretion. If the paladin thinks the person will toe the line from here on out, he may let the person live...or he may not, depending on other circumstances. It does not compel the paladin to do anything, unlike Torag (who refuses to take prisoners except to put the screws to them for intelligence) or Shelyn (who would seemingly try to reform a demon).
2. "I am responsible for their lives." To me that has two meanings of equal import. 1) If you accept someone's surrender, you're responsible for seeing them out of the danger zone and to someplace where they can safely be seen to in whatever way necessary, be it a court, a church, or wherever, and 2) What those people do with the lives you give them is on you. If you spare a malefactor who goes on to kill and rape and pillage, all those sins are your fault because you had a chance to stop that bad actor permanently before he committed them but you chose not to.
To me, those two pieces move together to create really fertile ground for deep and satisfying roleplaying. The paladin of Iomedae is continually called upon to make judgments on the people and creatures he defeats. For example, what does a paladin do after assaulting an orc den in the wilderness and killing the adults? He's got a bunch of orc infants and children on his hands. He's faced with the dilemma of either trying to get them back to civilization along a perilous path that would likely kill many of them and result in a bunch of orc kids nobody in civilization is willing to deal with, or killing a bunch of young orcs who haven't actually done anything bad yet. Unless the paladin of Iomedae knows of someplace he can reach that A) wouldn't be too long a journey for the kids to survive or fatally derail whatever important quest he was on, B) is willing to take a bunch of orc kids at all, and C) is likely to raise the orc kids in a fashion that will overcome their inherent savage, cruel, and wicked natures (because remember that orcs are Evil by nature, as part of their makeup), then maybe the "most good" outcome of the scenario is that he gives those same orc kids quick, clean, painless deaths.
Yeah, I definitely get your meaning. And I understand the idea that good and evil are real forces in fantasy that CAN be identified by a spell. And certain things like goblins, especially goblins, should never be trusted in the first place. But it also seems that, in a world with goblins and all that, human life should be even more precious. Although, I must say, I've not looked into how thorough a judicial system Golarion has.
That's an excellent point, and the one that I think really drives paladins to do what they do. And of course not just human lives, but the lives of any sentient who's willing to live a good life and not be evil. The life of a good, law-abiding goblin or hill giant would be just as precious to a paladin as the life of a human or a dwarf. Which is where a good GM swoops in and gives the paladin's player fodder for fascinating roleplaying choices! :-)
Faiths of Purity actually gives a Code of Conduct for each Paladin depending on which of the 7 greater gods of good they worship. There are significant differences.
For instance it's expected that a Paladin of Torag might straight up LIE to your face to protect "dwarven cultural interests" and that once he smites the evil he "scatters their family"
I played a dwarven Paladin who walked into a town of Teiflings, Detected Evil, confirmed they were all evil (wasn't a stretch it was an area with an opening to Hell nearby) and he used Alignment Channel to wipe out 3/4 of the town. The other Paladin in the party gathered up the surviving children to ship to a temple to be raised but didn't blink at my Paladin finishing off all the adults.
If I hadn't been a worshiper of Torag (and more specifically Angorrad Torag's aggressive son, the Dwarven God of Tactics and Battle) I wouldn't have been shocked at all to need to atone. But the dwarven interpretation is ALL threats to the race must be extinguished and their culture needs to BURN so no future threats can arise from the ashes.
Iomedae doesn't roll like that. Saranerae is in between. Erastil would probably be ok with it. Shelyn, Desna and Cayden would have dropped me on the spot.
I think Iomedae rolls closer to that than you'd expect. I'd put Iomedae closer to Torag than Sarenae, actually, because as I read the codes in Faiths of Purity (AWESOME BOOK!!!!) Sarenrae's paladins believe in offering redemption, while Iomedae's paladins are more about stopping threats.
The clause I'm thinking of is the one about, "When in doubt, I may force an enemy to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives." It's interesting that it's phrased that way, because two things stick out to me:
1. The word "may." It indicates discretion. If the paladin thinks the person will toe the line from here on out, he may let the person live...or he may not, depending on other circumstances. It does not compel the paladin to...
I was with you till the whole "Orcs are always Evil" part. They are naturally aggressive, but steam can be blown while cutting logs instead of hacking people to pieces. It has been proven time and again that the only "always evil" beings are in fact Outsiders with the Evil sub-type. Orcs are neither Outsiders nor do they have this sub-type. All they have is a genetical inclination towards aggressive behaviour, and a brutal culture that reinforces a heavy lean to Chaotic and Evil behaviour. Every other point you brought up is one that I agree with.
...an example would be a "seemed to be commoner", because he failed his sense motive check, walked up to him and asked for spare coins. he threaten him for coming so close to him and when the commoner moved his hand closer, which he thought was suspicious,he attacked the guy and dropped him in one hit. the commoner was a pick pocket but the paladin failed his checks to notice he might have been up to anything.Can you give more information?
Can you tell what kind of threats does he make? Does he make good on those threats or not? Can you give an example of such a situation? Also what does sense motive checks have to do with that? (i probably didn't understand something)To be honest, I've rethought my post, because it really doesn't hinge as much as you suggest on the Sense Motive check. If the player fails Sense Motive, as you say, the character doesn't know what is going on in the situation. As GM, you shouldn't dictate or presume what the character thinks based on that information. The player could be justified in claiming that he thought the NPC was a spellcaster, a monster or a skilled thief, thus a real threat - which happened to be the truth - especially if the party had been warned about the locals previously.
Since the paladin turned out to be correct, his action was not evil or dishonourable. It might have been reckless, but until that actually leads him to do evil, it's a personality trait, not an alignment or code issue.
How does the Paladin know he was correct? Did the commoner confess to being a Pickpocket before dying? For all the Pally knew, he just murdered a innocent beggar in cold blood for standing to close to him. And aren't Paladin's supposed to help the needy? I'd swear it's in the class description somewhere.
It hate to be the one to call "badwrongfun", but there is, in fact, a right way to play Paladins. It's written in the class
Looking for probable cause would be the start. A Paladin wandering the streets questioning random civies, seems to not be in order of the Iomedae clause. I think reviewing the gods doctrine would help clarify law and honor and all that fluff stuff.
Actually, the Mythic AP Wrath of Faithful (or whatever) shows Imoedae is exactly willing to act like this when she kidnaps then tortures the PCs.
thread necromancy!! we must smite it.
joking aside I've heard that mythic AP was horrible in it's representation of Imoedae
Actually, the Mythic AP Wrath of Faithful (or whatever) shows Imoedae is exactly willing to act like this when she kidnaps then tortures the PCs.
Torture confirmed Lawful Good act.