The Daemons of Golarion have a very different groove going for them than the Daemons of the Book of Fiends.
This is especially true compared to Demons and Devils... who in D&D, are always rather clearly defined. You know where they stand and what they want with... souls, the universe, and everything. No one ever worries if their D&D demons are going to be unoriginal, because they're such a tradition.
Painting something Lawful or Chaotic might be a broad strokes thing, but it enables them to keep longstanding concepts with solid traction... the more untethered evil of Daemons seems to kind of make them like gnomes. Everyone who takes a stab at them seems to have to re-invent their Daemonic Thing.
Erm... this may have been a long way around in asking, but since the Daemons of Golarion differ so much from the Daemons of the Book of Fiends, to what degree do the Daemons of the Book of Fiends have a place in Golarion... and if so, how have they changed?
I've already seen a Glomeray in one of the APs, but there wasn't much time spent on what his place in the oblivion-factory of Abaddon. I'm curious since I've been just been working on reading Book of Fiends lately, (I got through the Demon section a while back, but stuff got in my way before I got to Gehenna,) and I've been wondering if and hoping we'll see more of some of the delightfully horrible things from that book. There are some precious gems in there.
Good timing :)
In October-ish the third Book of the Damned is coming out - Horsemen of the Apocalypse all abouts Daemons.
If you want something sooner, there are a bunch in the Bestiary 2.
:)
I think there are more in a few APs too, but can't remember off the top of my head.
|
This is especially true compared to Demons and Devils... who in D&D, are always rather clearly defined. You know where they stand and what they want with... souls, the universe, and everything. No one ever worries if their D&D demons are going to be unoriginal, because they're such a tradition.Painting something Lawful or Chaotic might be a broad strokes thing, but it enables them to keep longstanding concepts with solid traction... the more untethered evil of Daemons seems to kind of make them like gnomes. Everyone who takes a stab at them seems to have to re-invent their Daemonic Thing.
In pathfinder Daemons are NE. From the Pathfinderwiki page"Their insidious evil is not influenced by notions of law and chaos, as daemons concern themselves only with the destruction of life itself."
on that page you can also click on the Daemon category to see some of the daemons that have made it onto Golarion already.
Huh? Pathfinderwiki claims that daemons are the youngest of the fiendish races... Wasn't part of Golarion and Pathfinder lore that daemons are actually older than demons and responsible for "learning" Abyss how to spawn demons from mortal souls?
Huh? Pathfinderwiki claims that daemons are the youngest of the fiendish races... Wasn't part of Golarion and Pathfinder lore that daemons are actually older than demons and responsible for "learning" Abyss how to spawn demons from mortal souls?
Youngest of the original fiendish races (qlippoth, devils, and daemons).
Creative Director
|
Huh? Pathfinderwiki claims that daemons are the youngest of the fiendish races... Wasn't part of Golarion and Pathfinder lore that daemons are actually older than demons and responsible for "learning" Abyss how to spawn demons from mortal souls?
You're mixing Pathfinder daemons up with D&D yugoloths, I think.
Demons ARE among the youngest fiend races... if "as old as free will and the first sinning humanoids" equates to young. But daemons aren't much older than that; they're basically "as old as the first humanoid to die."
Huh? Pathfinderwiki claims that daemons are the youngest of the fiendish races... Wasn't part of Golarion and Pathfinder lore that daemons are actually older than demons and responsible for "learning" Abyss how to spawn demons from mortal souls?You're mixing Pathfinder daemons up with D&D yugoloths, I think.
Demons ARE among the youngest fiend races... if "as old as free will and the first sinning humanoids" equates to young. But daemons aren't much older than that; they're basically "as old as the first humanoid to die."
Exactly what I had in mind. Daemons are older than demons. Period. "aren't much older than x" still means "older than x".
Pathfinder wiki explicitly states that daemons are younger than demons.
And from description of qlippoths:
"Here, the qlippoth have festered and lurked for ages. None can say how many qlippoth survived that Ancient war, for none can know how deep the Abyss goes. The qlippoth dwell in these darkest pits, periodically emerging to do battle against their hated demonic foes, yet their wrath is not limited to the demonic host. The qlippoth know that daemons played a role in “teaching” the Abyss how to birth demonic life, and their war with the denizens of Abaddon is one fueled more by a driving need to punish than any need for survival."
And from the description of demons
"When the first sinful mortal souls were judged by Pharasma and sent on to their ultimate fates, those sent into the Abyss did not manifest as the Damned and enter the remorseless machine that is Hell, nor did they rematerialize in their living bodies on Abaddon to become prey for the daemonic host. Those who came to the Abyss manifested as larvae—worm-like creatures with pale, glistening bodies and twisted human faces stretched over the pulpy and chitinous masses that now passed as their heads. These larvae gathered on the rims of the Abyssal rifts, and as the countless worlds of the Material Plane continued to offer up sinful souls as grist for the Abyss, vast seas of larvae began to choke the realm. It wasn’t until a now-forgotten daemon lord, one of the first Horsemen of the Apocalypse, came upon a fatal idea that true demons came into existence. This lord had long held a strange interest in the qlippoth of the deepest Abyss, and in his realm kept many as stock for experiments and investigation. Intrigued by the potency of larvae, the ancient Horseman began to conduct experiments with larvae and qlippoth—experiments that showed immediate promise. Over time, the nameless Horseman perfected his methods, and at last was able to trigger a most unholy transformation. The amalgamation of sinful soul-stuff and living matter birthed eons ago by the Abyss convulsed and transformed from the inside out, making something entirely new: the first demon."
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder wiki explicitly states that daemons are younger than demons.
Huh. Well then, that's an error that someone should fix then.
Starting from the oldest and going to the newest:
Qlippoth
Protean
Aeon
Inevitable
Angel
Archon/Azata/Agathion
Devil
Daemon
Demon
more or less...
Are we hijacking the thread to make it another "fiends and other outsiders of golarion discussion"? If so then, if memeory serves me right Axiomites should go above Inevitables as they created them as a weapon against Proteans.
Also: can be relative age determined between Qlippoths/Proteans? Or is it more like Qlippoths and Proteans learned of each other and both belive to be older than the other, but before contact neither had any reference point that could be used to determine which are actually older?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Qlippoth
Protean
LIeSliESSEILLieS!!!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder wiki explicitly states that daemons are younger than demons.
Huh. Well then, that's an error that someone should fix then.
Starting from the oldest and going to the newest:
Qlippoth
Protean
Aeon
Inevitable
Angel
Archon/Azata/Agathion
Devil
Daemon
Demonmore or less...
So where does the div and psychopomps fit into that list?
So...evil was first?Starting from the oldest and going to the newest:
Qlippoth
Protean
Aeon
...
..
.
If you want to call it evil. Mortal concepts are so limited...
|
Creative Director
|
Are we hijacking the thread to make it another "fiends and other outsiders of golarion discussion"? If so then, if memeory serves me right Axiomites should go above Inevitables as they created them as a weapon against Proteans.
Also: can be relative age determined between Qlippoths/Proteans? Or is it more like Qlippoths and Proteans learned of each other and both belive to be older than the other, but before contact neither had any reference point that could be used to determine which are actually older?
Axiomites are indeed older than inevitables... but axiomites are not an alignment-based outsider race like demons, inevitables, devils, and angels. There's not different kinds of axiomites—they're like humans or ettercaps or dryads or the like. So I didn't include them in my little racial breakdown.
As for which is older regarding qlippoth and proteans... depends who you ask. Certainly the multiverse as we know it had proteans in it first, but when they opened up access to the Abyss... the Abyss was already up and running with qlippoth inside it.
Personally, I like to think the qlippoth were first. But there's no way to know for sure.
|
Creative Director
|
So where does the div and psychopomps fit into that list?Pathfinder wiki explicitly states that daemons are younger than demons.
Huh. Well then, that's an error that someone should fix then.
Starting from the oldest and going to the newest:
Qlippoth
Protean
Aeon
Inevitable
Angel
Archon/Azata/Agathion
Devil
Daemon
Demonmore or less...
Divs are corrupted genies, and genies are the elemental plane trying to ape humanoid shapes, so divs are relatively recent. They certainly came along after daemons, and might even have come along after demons.
As for psychopomps... they're the new kids on the block and as such I've not put a LOT of thought at all into them. So far, their development's mostly being spearheaded by Wes. If I had to guess, though, they probably came along at about the time mortals started dying, so probably between devils and daemons.
Pathfinder wiki explicitly states that daemons are younger than demons.
Huh. Well then, that's an error that someone should fix then.
Luckily, literally anyone who wants to can edit PathfinderWiki, so if there's a person who holds this issue near and dear to his or her heart, the project's a'waitin'!
Luckily, literally anyone who wants to can edit PathfinderWiki, so if there's a person who holds this issue near and dear to his or her heart, the project's a'waitin'!
Ah well I'll go right in and list myself as 'not at all imprisoned' and 'the most awesome entity on the planes'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As for which is older regarding qlippoth and proteans... depends who you ask. Certainly the multiverse as we know it had proteans in it first, but when they opened up access to the Abyss... the Abyss was already up and running with qlippoth inside it.
Personally, I like to think the qlippoth were first. But there's no way to know for sure.
I suppose it depends on whether, with infinite chaos, the Proteans created an entire abyssal universe (or place outside the universe, as the case may be,) whole-cloth, possibly including a timeline and history that in non-linear context had always existed to its inhabitants but really only just started now by the standards of the universe... and their creation was something they could neither contain or control.
Or if they just split the fallen tree or overturned the rock and found whole worlds of squirming life underneath, writhing a primal dance older than time or thought... and sadly, when the Proteans tried to put the bugs in squeamish Law's hair to make it cry, they discovered too late the things were poisonous.
Divs are corrupted genies, and genies are the elemental plane trying to ape humanoid shapes, so divs are relatively recent. They certainly came along after daemons, and might even have come along after demons.
If demons are corruption of mortal souls incarnated and genies are elemental response to humanoids then probably divs as corruption of genies could be thought of as elemental imitation of demons and thus younger.
As for psychopomps... they're the new kids on the block and as such I've not put a LOT of thought at all into them. So far, their development's mostly being spearheaded by Wes. If I had to guess, though, they probably came along at about the time mortals started dying, so probably between devils and daemons.
But this begs question: where they here before mortals, waiting for the first one to die or had spawned at the moment of first death, or came into existence only whence mortal death was already strongly estabilished part of the world...
|
Divs are corrupted genies, and genies are the elemental plane trying to ape humanoid shapes, so divs are relatively recent. They certainly came along after daemons, and might even have come along after demons.
If demons are corruption of mortal souls incarnated and genies are elemental response to humanoids then probably divs as corruption of genies could be thought of as elemental imitation of demons and thus younger.
As for psychopomps... they're the new kids on the block and as such I've not put a LOT of thought at all into them. So far, their development's mostly being spearheaded by Wes. If I had to guess, though, they probably came along at about the time mortals started dying, so probably between devils and daemons.But this begs question: where they here before mortals, waiting for the first one to die or had spawned at the moment of first death, or came into existence only whence mortal death was already strongly estabilished part of the world...
The description for the Psychopomps suggests that Pharasma may have found them already at the boneyard, and crafted more in their image. The whole arrangement of souls travel and migration and judgement and whatnot is not the "natural" state of things, it's a system put in place by the gods to provide for their mortal worshipers/maintain a steady influx of power, or so I understand.
So where does the div and psychopomps fit into that list?
Starting from the oldest and going to the newest:Qlippoth
Protean
Aeon
Inevitable
Angel
Archon/Azata/Agathion
Devil
Daemon
Demonmore or less...
Divs are corrupted genies, and genies are the elemental plane trying to ape humanoid shapes, so divs are relatively recent. They certainly came along after daemons, and might even have come along after demons.
As for psychopomps... they're the new kids on the block and as such I've not put a LOT of thought at all into them. So far, their development's mostly being spearheaded by Wes. If I had to guess, though, they probably came along at about the time mortals started dying, so probably between devils and daemons.
How about Kytons?
We haven't really had a great outlet for in-world backgound information on psychopomps or new kytons yet, but I'm sure we will some day down the road. That's where I'd prefer to present most of our musings and continuity on these awesome races, rather than saying X here and then Y in a printed project - and accidentally messing with someone's whole "Psychopomps vs Kytons!" campaign. For now, lets suffice to say that these races are "old old."
I do feel like we said somewhere that the kytons use to live in Hell, but migrated to the Plane of Shadow with Zon-Kuthon. As for dates, though, even relative ones, at some point I have to believe mortal understanding of time and the vast distances between the planes would breakdown to the point that such measurements would prove inaccurate enough to be meaningless. (How's that for a yes-but-no cop out?) In any case, again, lets settle on "before there was dirt to be older than," as a rough date for such things.
We haven't really had a great outlet for in-world backgound information on psychopomps or new kytons yet, but I'm sure we will some day down the road. That's where I'd prefer to present most of our musings and continuity on these awesome races, rather than saying X here and then Y in a printed project - and accidentally messing with someone's whole "Psychopomps vs Kytons!" campaign. For now, lets suffice to say that these races are "old old."
I do feel like we said somewhere that the kytons use to live in Hell, but migrated to the Plane of Shadow with Zon-Kuthon. As for dates, though, even relative ones, at some point I have to believe mortal understanding of time and the vast distances between the planes would breakdown to the point that such measurements would prove inaccurate enough to be meaningless. (How's that for a yes-but-no cop out?) In any case, again, lets settle on "before there was dirt to be older than," as a rough date for such things.
It would be nice to see, for a change, group of extraplanar creatures that would be complete enigma not by virtue of being unspeakably old (or by returning/emerging after eons of not being seen/known) but instead because of being something completly new - a new player in the greater cosmology.
At the moment I can think of a new breed of purely chaotic creatures that would be appearing since the death of Aroden as a manifestation of uncertaining with their primary goal being bringing freedom from the bindings of Fate, freedom of choice and negation of prophecies.
Divs are corrupted genies, and genies are the elemental plane trying to ape humanoid shapes, so divs are relatively recent. They certainly came along after daemons, and might even have come along after demons.
If demons are corruption of mortal souls incarnated and genies are elemental response to humanoids then probably divs as corruption of genies could be thought of as elemental imitation of demons and thus younger.
As for psychopomps... they're the new kids on the block and as such I've not put a LOT of thought at all into them. So far, their development's mostly being spearheaded by Wes. If I had to guess, though, they probably came along at about the time mortals started dying, so probably between devils and daemons.But this begs question: where they here before mortals, waiting for the first one to die or had spawned at the moment of first death, or came into existence only whence mortal death was already strongly estabilished part of the world...
At least in RW mythology genies were created before humans (but after angels). Arabic legend credited them with some of the immense ruins of Egypt. The lived on the Earth for thousands of years before the creation of Adam. It was their king Iblis/Azazel's refusal to bow before the new-made first humans that caused his expulsion from the lower ranks of heaven. Simularly, the Divs descend from Ahriman's ranks and thus pre-existed the first Persian man, Keyumars or Gayomart, as well. Similarly, the Hindu Puranas place Manu (the first human) as a younger cousin of the divine and fiendish races.
Thus the idea of mortals being a template of sorts for the planar races in Golarion is significantly different from the mythical assumption, which was that humans are humanoid because the planar races are humanoid-- humanity is made in the likeness of the gods, not the other way around.The opposite notion seems to reflect the modern view that humanoid depictions of divine beings reflect human assumptions and bias.
Demons ARE among the youngest fiend races... if "as old as free will and the first sinning humanoids" equates to young. But daemons aren't much older than that; they're basically "as old as the first humanoid to die."
So the first humanoid died sin-free? And there was no sin in his life-time?
That means he either met tragedy (accident etc.) or died of old age. He wasn't murdered! Only afterwards some of his survivors thought "he took quite long to die, how could we speed this up?" and came up with killing.
Demons ARE among the youngest fiend races... if "as old as free will and the first sinning humanoids" equates to young. But daemons aren't much older than that; they're basically "as old as the first humanoid to die."So the first humanoid died sin-free? And there was no sin in his life-time?
That means he either met tragedy (accident etc.) or died of old age. He wasn't murdered! Only afterwards some of his survivors thought "he took quite long to die, how could we speed this up?" and came up with killing.
what makes you think the 'first humanoid' ever died in the first place?
|
Creative Director
|
Demons ARE among the youngest fiend races... if "as old as free will and the first sinning humanoids" equates to young. But daemons aren't much older than that; they're basically "as old as the first humanoid to die."So the first humanoid died sin-free? And there was no sin in his life-time?
That means he either met tragedy (accident etc.) or died of old age. He wasn't murdered! Only afterwards some of his survivors thought "he took quite long to die, how could we speed this up?" and came up with killing.
no... There was sin before demons. It wasn't until a curious daemon took a chaotic evil sinful human soul and forced it to combine with something from the Abyss as an experiment that the first demon manifested. And that was a flash point, kind of like how once one crystal forms in a supersaturated solution, the entire thing forms quickly—after that fist demon was created, the process worked on its own.
And even then, there are plenty of non chaotic evil sinful souls out there that don't make very good demon creation fodder.
As for which is older regarding qlippoth and proteans... depends who you ask. Certainly the multiverse as we know it had proteans in it first, but when they opened up access to the Abyss... the Abyss was already up and running with qlippoth inside it.
The whole Great Beyond is just a tumour, a malignant virus. The Cerulean Void was there first - if concepts like "first" can be applied here, since time is just one of the laws the Great Beyond likes to use to freeze parts of the Void into stagnant perfection.
Some of the Void froze into a reality, and that reality grew. And when it grew too big, the proteans were first spawned, to try and dissolve this reality.
You could say that they were not there before the Great Beyond, because they were just entities back then, just like all other entities. Some of them turned into proteans as a response to this virus, to eliminate it and free the part of the Void under the the virus's sway. I guess the qlippoth might have come before that moment.
no... There was sin before demons. It wasn't until a curious daemon took a chaotic evil sinful human soul and forced it to combine with something from the Abyss as an experiment that the first demon manifested. And that was a flash point, kind of like how once one crystal forms in a supersaturated solution, the entire thing forms quickly—after that fist demon was created, the process worked on its own.
And even then, there are plenty of non chaotic evil sinful souls out there that don't make very good demon creation fodder.
the idea that the Abyss is sort of alive (or has some vast kind of super-intelligence) creeps me out in all kinds of ways.
that said, way back in the day white wolf had a book they used as a sort of fictional backstory for their vampire back story called 'the book of nod'. to my mind, it was one of the best gotdamn game books ever written. I still don't know how they managed to pull it off either. But if you were looking for new product ideas (not that you need any help in that department!), you could do worse than a 'spellbook' written entirely in character that covered matters both esoteric and mundane.
what makes you think the 'first humanoid' ever died in the first place?
The fact that he was a humanoid. Humanoids are mortals. That's one of the big things you can recognise them by.
no... There was sin before demons. It wasn't until a curious daemon took a chaotic evil sinful human soul and forced it to combine with something from the Abyss as an experiment that the first demon manifested.
Forgot about that.
The whole Great Beyond is just a tumour, a malignant virus. The Cerulean Void was there first - if concepts like "first" can be applied here, since time is just one of the laws the Great Beyond likes to use to freeze parts of the Void into stagnant perfection.
Some of the Void froze into a reality, and that reality grew. And when it grew too big, the proteans were first spawned, to try and dissolve this reality.
You could say that they were not there before the Great Beyond, because they were just entities back then, just like all other entities. Some of them turned into proteans as a response to this virus, to eliminate it and free the part of the Void under the the virus's sway. I guess the qlippoth might have come before that moment.
my view (for what little its worth) is that the qlippoth are pure entropy. they exist to break down and digest reality. in our good/evil framework that makes them evil...but from their perspective, the perfect void was corrupted by mortals and their sins.
The fact that he was a humanoid. Humanoids are mortals. That's one of the big things you can recognise them by.what makes you think the 'first humanoid' ever died in the first place?
yeah, but 'back then' the rules weren't exactly set in stone. a greater race of 'perfect human(oids)' could have been the first to be born. Maybe they didn't die, maybe they went somewhere else.
Or maybe the First Ones didn't have souls. not as we understand the term. maybe that development evolved in their children and came later.
My point is that its possible that the gods (or whomever) created the first mortals probably didn't get all the bugs worked out prior to product release. there could have been a somewhat buggy 'beta version' out there somewhere.
The whole Great Beyond is just a tumour, a malignant virus.
No, the correct answer would be mortals. Mortals are a malignant virus. Wriggling parasite souls feeding on the sallow flesh of the immortal.
The whole Great Beyond is just a tumour, a malignant virus.No, the correct answer would be mortals. Mortals are a malignant virus. Wriggling parasite souls feeding on the sallow flesh of the immortal.
And there's an unbiased viewpoint!
<Not!> :p
Carry on all. ;)
--C.
The whole Great Beyond is just a tumour, a malignant virus.No, the correct answer would be mortals. Mortals are a malignant virus. Wriggling parasite souls feeding on the sallow flesh of the immortal.
Nah. Outsiders are just as bad.
As we are speaking of various fiends... Do demodands exist in Golarion or not? (are demodands OGL or not, as I don't remember where they appeared for 3rd edition?)
|
As we are speaking of various fiends... Do demodands exist in Golarion or not? (are demodands OGL or not, as I don't remember where they appeared for 3rd edition?)
They are open content thanks to Tome of Horrors.
Yes, they exist on Golarion.
And they're coming in Bestiary 3, which makes me oh so happy.
As we are speaking of various fiends... Do demodands exist in Golarion or not? (are demodands OGL or not, as I don't remember where they appeared for 3rd edition?)They are open content thanks to Tome of Horrors.
Aye, I just found their conversion to PF on d20pfsrd with copyrigt note.
Yes, they exist on Golarion.
And they're coming in Bestiary 3, which makes me oh so happy.
As Bestiaries are more generic than Golarion-specific, can any of the designers ortheir minions say a few words about their role on Golarion in the grand scheme of planar things?
As Bestiaries are more generic than Golarion-specific, can any of the designers ortheir minions say a few words about their role on Golarion in the grand scheme of planar things?We could... but we're not quite ready to do so yet. Maybe as we get closer to Bestairy 3's release.
So you admit that your fienidsh wardens forbid you from speaking about them?
All in all, I guess they should be younger than other fiends as sins are probably earlier than punishment...
Or they might be created by some divine forces to serve as jailors for some sort of cosmic horror and only later relegated to some minor tasks, like warding some fallen celestials, rogue devils or bound demons in their prison. And later falling so low to guard mortal souls jailed with them.
Do they also serve Apomps in Golarion?
Can't we have deodands instead of demodands? Demodands always looked ridiculous.
WIll demodands even be based on Rule-Of-Three? If yes then I hope it will be Three-times-three, with three tiers each one containing three different kinds of demodands.
Hmmm:
Tier one: slaves
Tier two: slavers
Tier three: overseers
Each tier would contain one smart, one sneaky and one strong demodand giving us a total of three smart, three sneaky and three strong demodands.
|
Creative Director
|
WIll demodands even be based on Rule-Of-Three? If yes then I hope it will be Three-times-three, with three tiers each one containing three different kinds of demodands.
Hmmm:
Tier one: slaves
Tier two: slavers
Tier three: overseersEach tier would contain one smart, one sneaky and one strong demodand giving us a total of three smart, three sneaky and three strong demodands.
The rule of three is also product identity of Wizards of the Coast; that's a big part of the Planescape setting.
We'll be doing something else with demodands. The only part that we really have to work with is whatever showed up in the Tome of Horrors. We'll build off of that material, but whatever else we do will be new.
The rule of three is also product identity of Wizards of the Coast; that's a big part of the Planescape setting.
Wha... what?!
Rule of three is a plot device used in literature and storytelling for thousands of years. TSR might have named it but they certainly not invented it... Saying that it is part of product identity is like saying that wizards are product identity and no one can use wizards except them.
Rule Of Three examples on wikipedia
And even more examples on tvtropes.
|
|
The rule of three is also product identity of Wizards of the Coast; that's a big part of the Planescape setting.Wha... what?!
Rule of three is a plot device used in literature and storytelling for thousands of years. TSR might have named it but they certainly not invented it...
\
"Rule of three" as a general concept is of course a literacy concept, but "rule of three as a repeating pattern in cosmology of a fantasy world" is pretty damn close to Hhello, are you ripping off us? Well just in case, here's is a C&D.".
"Rule of three" as a general concept is of course a literacy concept, but "rule of three as a repeating pattern in cosmology of a fantasy world" is pretty damn close to Hhello, are you ripping off us? Well just in case, here's is a C&D.".
Many real-world cosmologies involve repeating patterns of three. Heaven, Earth and Hell, Father, Son and Spirit, Maiden, Mother, Crone, Past, Present and Future.