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I'm talking about the Games Workshop 'Hobby centres'.
I don't happen to play WH40K ir anything (I have given it a go) and don't happen to have a thing for GW generally, I just noticed they have done reasonably well and have maintained and expanded their presence in this country when the competition was taking a dive.
Since you dont play, your making assumptions. Their "hobby centers" are a drain on their corporate resources.....and according to fincial reports(since they are a publicly traded company, they have to release it) half their sales come from independent retailers. They have cut back staff and other resources to the hobby centers, since they drain resources.
When it comes to service what gamers really mean is that they want the books in the store on the day of their street date at a price equal to the inflation adjusted average (in other words at between a 10% and 20% discount on new hardbacks).
I think there's also a psychological factor to this, as well. I try to buy SOMETHING from the FLGS from time to time - be it an old Map Pack that I don't have (if they even stock them) or dice, or an old supplement that looks interesting (if they even carry used/OOP material).
I know that the FLGS can't compete with the likes of Amazon on price, but that 10% to 20% discount is, to me, the ideal range for a token discount off of MSRP to entice me to spend a little more.
The other service gamers are looking for is the ability to immediately pick up most major items in a game line so that they can quickly put a character with a bunch of options together (because actually playing games has been know to suddenly inspire players to drop $100 or more on player option books).
I can't tell you how true this is. More than a few times in the past few years we've been gaming, and someone decides they want a book, and they want it NOW. Unfortunately, the odds that any of the remotely local (30 minute one-way drive) stores have it are nil (there's only one I would be remotely confident of stocking the core hardcovers for PF, and even then, they only ever keep 1-2 of them on the shelf at a time).
This typically meant a phone call to the closest stores, several "nope, we don't have it" responses, and an order via Amazon.
Back during the much-maligned D20 "glut", not only did we have more stores, but we could drive out and have that confidence that within 30 minutes, we'd have the product we're looking for, as well as other product that looked cool on the shelf.
One of the reasons so many store owners get told that a book "isn't out yet" is that the distributor is only putting in one order and not planning to restock. The product went to online sellers and large accounts (chain bookstores, small game store chains and large single stores) and never made it to the outlying retailers.
Have to say, I've never seen this, and this sounds incredibly atypical of the current state of distribution.
Bookstores get their product from a different source than game stores, and game stores get ample notification to pre-order.
Further, a good store will know the difference between "it's not out" and "my distributor doesn't have any". Telling me "it's not out" when it's most definitely out? They deserve the reputation for incompetence at that point. Don't BS me about the status - especially in this day and age when they can pull up their distributor's order page and see exactly how many copies the distributor has, along with the release date.
Ultimately, let's use the hypothetical situation that the distributor doesn't have any copies in stock, and won't be getting more. That shouldn't be the end of this situation.
As an example: Amazon sells the Pathfinder CRB for $31.49 with free Super-Saver (UPS Ground/USPS Media Mail or Parcel Post) shipping. It may not be the $26.49 they could get it for from Alliance, but there's still $18.50 profit to be made off the Amazon price vs. the MSRP, or $8.50 to be made with a 20% discount.
No lost sale. Still profiting.
I really don't understand why more stores don't do this - the distribution channel is NOT the only channel they can buy stuff from.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind playing there for my PFS game, but I don't do it because I feel the need to support it to keep the hobby going, I do because it happens to be a good central location for my players, but if the Store was not there I would find my players in other ways, and still get my stuff in other ways *I already do*. 90% of my players had nothing to do with the store.In all of San Antonio there is One place you would call a FLGS, and still the hobby thrives here, and would without the FLGS.
I think we're talking different things now. Community spaces are important. Right now the most common community space for gaming is the FLGS. It's the most common place for people who don't know each other very well to get together and game.
I'm not arguing that you have to buy books there. I'm arguing that the community space is valuable, both as a resource to current players and a way to draw new people into the hobby. More people playing our hobby is a good thing. It takes thousands of purchases of books to make publishing books like Paizo's profitable. Without that profit, the books are going to get smaller, have fewer colors and pages. If your game store carries any indie games, check those out. Those are books written and published by people who have to support themselves with a "day job" that has nothing to do with gaming. While they can be great games and a lot of fun, I would be willing to bet that a lot of Pathfinder fans would be severely disappointed if that became the future of Paizo.
This isn't a "the sky is falling" post. It's pointing out that this game happens to be one of the dominant games in a niche market. That niche is slowly becoming smaller over the years. If you want to see what books for smaller niches within gaming look like, there are plenty of examples.
There are other ways to support a game store besides buying books. Letting people watch you play a game, running demo's of games, or helping run events.
I'm actually less concerned with the stores themselves and more about the community and the places we have to get together, meet new people and introduce them to our hobby. It's a wonderful hobby, but a lot of people don't understand it and taking away places where they can just walk in on their own time and learn about it will reduce the chances that they join in on the fun.
The gaming store closest to my house only has a couple shelves of books. But it has several dozen tables, tv's (people can rent x-boxs and the like), food, drink and demo boardgames. They focus on providing a space to play, whether it's wargaming, cards, rpgs, LAN's or whatever.
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It's the most common place for people who don't know each other very well to get together and game.
I'm actually less concerned with the stores themselves and more about the community and the places we have to get together, meet new people and introduce them to our hobby.
Really? What are you doing right now? Who are you talking to, with how many people?
The internet brings a hell of alot of people together, and with people meeting people boards looking for games, I could argue that its a toss ball on which actually gets people together, easier and faster.
Really? What are you doing right now? Who are you talking to, with how many people?
The internet brings a hell of alot of people together, and with people meeting people boards looking for games, I could argue that its a toss ball on which actually gets people together, easier and faster.
I daresay that, at least as far as our niche hobby goes, far more people are involved with it than are getting on the Internet to discuss the hobby.
Heck, use the store locator we were just discussing - the owners of these game shops aren't even getting online.
I can't point you to one single person I personally know that's on these boards or ENworld or WotC's forums.
Heck, I can't point you to very many people from my state, let alone my area of the state.
I truly wish that there were as many people on these forums from my area as there actually are in the game stores.
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Really? What are you doing right now? Who are you talking to, with how many people?
The internet brings a hell of alot of people together, and with people meeting people boards looking for games, I could argue that its a toss ball on which actually gets people together, easier and faster.
I daresay that, at least as far as our niche hobby goes, far more people are involved with it than are getting on the Internet to discuss the hobby.
Heck, use the store locator we were just discussing - the owners of these game shops aren't even getting online.
I can't point you to one single person I personally know that's on these boards or ENworld or WotC's forums.
Heck, I can't point you to very many people from my state, let alone my area of the state.
I truly wish that there were as many people on these forums from my area as there actually are in the game stores.
I agree with that. Of the two groups I play with, currently one has 6 people and one has 5, with two people overlap for a total of 9. (on rare occasions I play in a third but haven't in a couple of months now) anyways of those 9 I am the only one that goes on the forums and checks things often. Two more do it off and on when they want to know about something. The rest never do. I don't know how typical my group is, it does range from mid 20's to early 40's in ages. So maybe younger groups would be more apt to use the internet maybe.
I know it's been said that bundling PDFs for FLGSs isn't feasible, but I wonder if there could be a setup where FLGSs could log onto paizo.com and "purchase" PDFs, transferring the ownership to a customer's downloads page. The customer might not even need to give their password or anything security related (other than their profile name) and would still need to download the PDF when they get home. The FLGS would be responsible for what they purchase and transfer to customers, all transfers being final. Paizo would be offering them a way to sell PDFs, bundle with books, "compete" with amazon, but it would be up to the FLGS to make the most of it. They would hold the largest share of risk, etc.
I am sure there are reasone this wouldn't work, but I think it would be cool if it did or was made to.
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I know it's been said that bundling PDFs for FLGSs isn't feasible, but I wonder if there could be a setup where FLGSs could log onto paizo.com and "purchase" PDFs, transferring the ownership to a customer's downloads page. The customer might not even need to give their password or anything security related (other than their profile name) and would still need to download the PDF when they get home. The FLGS would be responsible for what they purchase and transfer to customers, all transfers being final. Paizo would be offering them a way to sell PDFs, bundle with books, "compete" with amazon, but it would be up to the FLGS to make the most of it. They would hold the largest share of risk, etc.
I am sure there are reasone this wouldn't work, but I think it would be cool if it did or was made to.
One can "gift" products to another Paizo.com user. I think that's a new feature of the store, however. I only stumbled across it when I bought some PDFs over the weekend.
The main issue is that the customer has to already have a Paizo.com account before they go to the store. I suppose the game store could have a computer available to let a customer create a Paizo account before checkout....
I'm a little surprised not a single store in the greater DC (or Baltimore) area is listed on the site. I know there ARE stores around here, although many of them are shadows of their former selves. In any case, I would have thought there would be enough PFRPG players in the area that it would be worth the time of a gaming store or two to list itself on the registry here on Paizo.com.
Since you dont play, your making assumptions. Their "hobby centers" are a drain on their corporate resources.....and according to fincial reports(since they are a publicly traded company, they have to release it) half their sales come from independent retailers. They have cut back staff and other resources to the hobby centers, since they drain resources.
Im going to discount the 'You dont play = assumptions' as just a pointless statement. Being a wargaming hobbyist in no way affords you a better understanding of business.
I'm not in the US, so I haven't seen their stores to compare with the ones locally, there could indeed be a marked difference between the two, however HERE (in Australia) the following is true:
*Those stores are always full of customers, who purchase product.
*Those stores are turning a profit, and indeed EXPANDING in number.
At the same time they have managed this,
*FLGS have (with two exceptions) vanished.
All this from a relatively obscure passtime with a niche market.
I think a possible new model for the FLGS is that of a venue with a "pro-shop".
Club culture is very strong in Australia - Golf, Lawn Bowls, Cricket, Rugby, Returned Soldiers all have clubs.
The clubs form a nucleus of a community; the clubs make their profits on the food, drinks and venue fees (gambling facilities, and alcohol pull in the most money – I am not sure how to factor those in).
If you can provide a location where card or board games, computer games and RPGs can be played and there is a membership and a fostered sense of community and ownership, then you have captured yourself a repeat customer base.
In one of the suburbs I lived in there was a pub with comfortable upstairs rooms where people played chess, backgammon and draughts. They had a club and regular games with 5-10 people turning up every Tuesday and buying beer and a meal. They also had pool, darts trivia and snooker competitions on the quiet nights of the week guaranteeing a steady group of loyal customers.
I guess what I am saying is look to the RPGs as your draw card and make the money from, the drinks, food and venue.
I think a possible new model for the FLGS is that of a venue with a "pro-shop"...I guess what I am saying is look to the RPGs as your draw card and make the money from, the drinks, food and venue.
This.
And I think that could be replicated in many many places.
Making your dough from 'just flogging books' is over, thinking about making a customer space where they can come and be engaged and participate in a hobby and community is where it is at.
On a side note, I got asked by a local council if I could cobble enough gamers together to have a games day in their community spaces on some sort of regular basis... simply put there's a lot of people with room to let crying out for people to occupy the space. I was tossing up pitching an offer to a FLGS to sponsor the space and maybe have a 'bookstand' or similar, but then there's no games store within a bajillion miles of Sydneys North Shore.
Would you as a Gamer be happy to pay a couple of dollars to use a nice airconditioned conference style room with WiFi thrown in and close to all amenities and a great coffee shop next door, loads of free parking and ready public transport access?
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I think a possible new model for the FLGS is that of a venue with a "pro-shop"...I guess what I am saying is look to the RPGs as your draw card and make the money from, the drinks, food and venue.This.
And I think that could be replicated in many many places.
Making your dough from 'just flogging books' is over, thinking about making a customer space where they can come and be engaged and participate in a hobby and community is where it is at.
On a side note, I got asked by a local council if I could cobble enough gamers together to have a games day in their community spaces on some sort of regular basis... simply put there's a lot of people with room to let crying out for people to occupy the space. I was tossing up pitching an offer to a FLGS to sponsor the space and maybe have a 'bookstand' or similar, but then there's no games store within a bajillion miles of Sydneys North Shore.
Would you as a Gamer be happy to pay a couple of dollars to use a nice airconditioned conference style room with WiFi thrown in and close to all amenities and a great coffee shop next door, loads of free parking and ready public transport access?
Resounding, yes. I want this to be my "day job!"
Resounding, yes. I want this to be my "day job!"
It's surprising how many opportunities are out there. I spend a bit of my free time volunteering my skills and expertise to the not for profit/charity/community sector over my way, and as a result I come across all sorts of interesting possibilities. The way that conversation came about was just a general chit chat on initiatives these guys could undertake to ensure their 'community space' was being used.
After a bit of tooing and froing about different activities I suggested that gamers generally were a fairly mindfull bunch who (whilst sometimes loud) were quite ok. The problem is that there isn't much in the way of formal or semi-formal clubs to approach to lure them over to use the facilities. So those nice facilities lie dormant. There's everything from local community halls through to smaller 'conference centre' type breakout rooms and all in between.
Somewhere in all that is another opportunity for an entrepreneurial type to set up a small business.
One of the strengths of a FLGS is direct contact with the players/customers.
This is something Paizo, or Amazon dont have... Unfortunatley there is a tendancy for a FLGS to cripple its self by employing/(not) training the wrong people.
Their staff are either charactures of the simpson's "Comic Book guy" or they "just there for the pay cheque" and have absoultly no idea of how to play their products.
The Comic book guy gives you attitude and the other staff member cant sell you anything because they dont know how it works.
Exactly right. Product knowledge is usually pretty lacking, and the 'Comic Book Guy' and 'Pay Cheque Man' are a profit-fighting combo found in GS the world over.
I have met a few LGS owners in my time, and VERY FEW were Friendly. The attitue of the staff was usually reflective of the terms of employment from these unfriendly types. Horrible to experience as a customer.
@carmachu
I wandered past the games Workshop store while I was out shopping. Its full, over full, there were kids sitting outside it clutching their new purchases with their parents. Yes it's school holidays, so now its chockablock. There is also a gaming store (sells some boardgames, occasional RPG stuff in a poorly presented stand) and loads of other similar things... and the only dude there was the store owner.
Really there is nothing a FLGS can do short of matching Amazon prices or Book/PDF bundles to get the business of a purchaser like myself.
Ditto. I'm surprised with the internet that FLGS's still exist. I don't see the point.
Ditto. I'm surprised with the internet that FLGS's still exist. I don't see the point.
FLGS circa 1980's dinosaur model that we see in the wild, I agree.
FLGS need to evolve. :)
Bite the bullet and supporting LGS's. deal with spending a little more to keep the hobby alive, I simply cannot stomach giving a place like amazon.com my hard earned money, when i could give a little extra of that money to people who actually deserve it.
when i could give a little extra of that money to people who actually deserve it.
Ok so I'll hazard the question, why do they deserve my custom? why should I just give away my time and money to them as an act of charity?
Charles (above) made a good comment, the store he mentioned have gone the extra mile and provide good service, so they are possibly worth the extra bucks.
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I agree with that. Of the two groups I play with, currently one has 6 people and one has 5, with two people overlap for a total of 9. (on rare occasions I play in a third but haven't in a couple of months now) anyways of those 9 I am the only one that goes on the forums and checks things often. Two more do it off and on when they want to know about something. The rest never do. I don't know how typical my group is, it does range from mid 20's to early 40's in ages. So maybe younger groups would be more apt to use the internet maybe.Really? What are you doing right now? Who are you talking to, with how many people?
The internet brings a hell of alot of people together, and with people meeting people boards looking for games, I could argue that its a toss ball on which actually gets people together, easier and faster.
I daresay that, at least as far as our niche hobby goes, far more people are involved with it than are getting on the Internet to discuss the hobby.
Heck, use the store locator we were just discussing - the owners of these game shops aren't even getting online.
I can't point you to one single person I personally know that's on these boards or ENworld or WotC's forums.
Heck, I can't point you to very many people from my state, let alone my area of the state.
I truly wish that there were as many people on these forums from my area as there actually are in the game stores.
It is almost exactly the same with my groups (creepy, the numbers are exactly the same, only in three groups - 9 peole, me most active in rpg forums, 2 who check from time to time, mid 20's to early 40's).
when i could give a little extra of that money to people who actually deserve it.Ok so I'll hazard the question, why do they deserve my custom? why should I just give away my time and money to them as an act of charity?
Charles (above) made a good comment, the store he mentioned have gone the extra mile and provide good service, so they are possibly worth the extra bucks.
I don't think anyone is saying you should give them your custom out of charity, and certainly if all your looking for is the cheapest price then maybe LGSs aren't for you. For many though, a well run, well stocked gaming store is a focal point, a meeting place. They run tournments and living campaigns. They have local volunteer reps for companies (eg Press Gangers). You get to see the people you might be playing with (rather than a faceless stranger you found on the web). It's easier to change a faulty product at a shop than it is to send something back to Amazon. A great shop, at the height of its powers is a great place and a bastion of the local gaming community. They help it grow.
You could argue that when you spend money at a gaming store you're not just buying a rulebook or figure. You're investing in the local gaming community, increasing the chances of playing games (and experiencing new games) in the future.
Just my view...maybe I've been spoilt by a great games shop. (Tin Soldier, Penrith, New South Wales).
Cheers
Mark
For many though, a well run, well stocked gaming store is a focal point, a meeting place. They run tournments and living campaigns.
I am aware of Tin Soldier, and they are atypical of the 'LGS' that Sydney used to enjoy, before we all abandoned them the minute new options opened.
Tin Soldier have always had nice shops, good staff, and have been very active in the 'scene'. This is not true of the rest of those that simply died off.
If other LGS took a leaf out of Tin Solider then we wouldn't be having this conversation, but the typical LGS just isn't on their wavelength.
It is a shame they lost their CBD presence though, but sounds like they are doing well.
It says a lot that we have a scene large enough to field several conventions a year, but that community only has two stores... simply put, we don't need LGS, so anyone who wants to go into that business needs to add more value than simply be a brick and mortar distribution channel if they would like a slice of my recreational dollar.
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I daresay that, at least as far as our niche hobby goes, far more people are involved with it than are getting on the Internet to discuss the hobby.
Heck, use the store locator we were just discussing - the owners of these game shops aren't even getting online.
To turn it around, I would there are far more people involved in our hobby that dont play in a FLGS. That dont use one.
I can't point you to one single person I personally know that's on these boards or ENworld or WotC's forums.
Heck, I can't point you to very many people from my state, let alone my area of the state.
I truly wish that there were as many people on these forums from my area as there actually are in the game stores.
I can point to many people that dont bother with FLGS, right here in this thread. They arent an abberation. I bet there are more then a few people around you that ARE on enworld, or paizo, or rpgnet....that you dont even know. I know gaming groups formed directly FROM online places, and turns out that their all withing 45 minutes of each other. But none of them would EVER have gotten together at a FLGS.
there's more then you think.
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I agree with that. Of the two groups I play with, currently one has 6 people and one has 5, with two people overlap for a total of 9. (on rare occasions I play in a third but haven't in a couple of months now) anyways of those 9 I am the only one that goes on the forums and checks things often. Two more do it off and on when they want to know about something. The rest never do. I don't know how typical my group is, it does range from mid 20's to early 40's in ages. So maybe younger groups would be more apt to use the internet maybe.
Conversely, 4 years ago my DM put up an ad in the local FLGS and got....no response. Then went on enworld gamers looking for gamers, and another board.....and the 8 of us have been playing strong for the last 4 years. Every one of them is online. And some are part of other groups, and none of them were founded in FLGS. Online is where its done.
BTW, we're anywhere from 25 and single to 40 and married with kids.
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Im going to discount the 'You dont play = assumptions' as just a pointless statement. Being a wargaming hobbyist in no way affords you a better understanding of business.
I'm not in the US, so I haven't seen their stores to compare with the ones locally, there could indeed be a marked difference between the two, however HERE (in Australia) the following is true:
*Those stores are always full of customers, who purchase product.
*Those stores are turning a profit, and indeed EXPANDING in number.At the same time they have managed this,
*FLGS have (with two exceptions) vanished.
All this from a relatively obscure passtime with a niche market.
If you dont play, you dont generally FOLLOW what GW does. Which is why it is NOT a pointless distiction. Its like someone who doesnt play D&D ever, trying to discuss WOTC and 4e and the GSL. You dont understand various items that have come into play.
Which includes reading their finacial reports which come out twice a year. You ALSO dont know what GW has been doing down under by you down under. You havent read the facts that GW has been cutting back on staff and such in stores. NOR the fact GW has just implimented bans on sales overseas internet retailers(because your paying far too much for a product- a $65 laidraider costs you over $100 US. Just because your live down under). Which has been killing the local retailers down under.
Its debatable whether the stores are actually turning a profit OR are being propped up by GW in general, unless you actually have access to the stores records. Nor do you know WHY the local FLGS have vanished, whether its due to GW stores, or their own incompetence or something different.
Try reading their bi-yearly reports before telling me you know.
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@carmachu
I wandered past the games Workshop store while I was out shopping. Its full, over full, there were kids sitting outside it clutching their new purchases with their parents. Yes it's school holidays, so now its chockablock. There is also a gaming store (sells some boardgames, occasional RPG stuff in a poorly presented stand) and loads of other similar things... and the only dude there was the store owner.
So what. Anodecetal information. GW's fincial recods show that they have in teh past year, had to cut back stores and/or close several of them, cut back hours and staff on others. Further, same records show unit sales are down again for the 5th straight year.
Just to clarify something I was saying a few posts back. If you are selling product for over the, inflation adjusted, sweat spot price people will find reasons not to like your business to justify not buying from you. That said a retail business does not need to beat online retailers to attract customers, but they do have to sell products at the right place on the supply and demand curve. We've seen many game companies go to a full color hardback model causing the price of gaming products to rise faster than the rate of inflation. Now people are making up reasons to buy online where product prices are still at or under the rate of inflation.
The original sin here is moving to the higher hardback price point.
StuffMy point it, none of that matter to me and would not get my Business, and the same is true for others I am sure.
For some of us it all comes down to the mighty dollar, Offering other fringe stuff will not get me to buy at your store.
What will get me to buy at your store is what gets me to buy here, a PDF/Book bundle or a Large Discount, both unreasonable expectations for the store to be able to do.
In other words, since what I want is unreasonable because it is out of his reach, he will not have my business, but since others online can offer what I want they do get my business.
And the vast majority of FLGS can't give me the Discount that Amazon can so offering discounts won't get my business either since I can still get better there with free shipping.
Really there is nothing a FLGS can do short of matching Amazon prices or Book/PDF bundles to get the business of a purchaser like myself.
You aren't the customer they are looking for then.
I buy mainly through Amazon and a subscription here. We have comic collectibles shop that stocks the basics but not much else in terms of games. He'll order anything I want in though. My issue is if I'm going to wait for it to come it why pay more at that shop vs Amazon. Now instant gratification, that's something I'll pay extra for and do. There is just something about flipping through a book and deciding to buy it right then.
To turn it around, I would there are far more people involved in our hobby that dont play in a FLGS. That dont use one.
Sure. I don't play in an FLGS. Ultimately, I don't end up using an FLGS all that much because they don't stock what I want.
I can point to many people that dont bother with FLGS, right here in this thread. They arent an abberation. I bet there are more then a few people around you that ARE on enworld, or paizo, or rpgnet....that you dont even know. I know gaming groups formed directly FROM online places, and turns out that their all withing 45 minutes of each other. But none of them would EVER have gotten together at a FLGS.
there's more then you think.
I'm not saying that they don't exist, and I'm not saying their numbers are small.
I'll rephrase what I'm saying: It would not surprise me one bit to find that for every 1 person on an RPG forum, there are 10 that are not.
I don't disagree that there are a lot of us on these forums. There's just a LOT more people that aren't.
I see a couple reasons to buy from a LGS:
1. Impulse buys: when you are in the store and see something that looks cool. For this to happen, they need a reason to get you in the store, and their price needs to be at least reasonable. Most people are willing to pay a few extra dolars to have it in hand, now. Events do a great deal to get people into the store.
2. You can touch it. This is a big deal for minis, dice, and books. I can go online to Reaper.com to buy any mini I want. It doesn't beat seeing it in the packaging at the store (usually), so if I need a new mini for my a specific purpose I will go to a store. This affects books to various levels, and it is better to let people actually browse them and know what they are getting. If they see a few cool pages, they may buy the book just for that. This goes into impulse buys.
3. Incentives: and larger purchases I'm going to make though are going to be somewhere with a deal. If I'm dropping $300 on stuff (like I did this weekend), and I can get 20% off MSRP somewhere, I'm going to do it. Stores need to offer incentives to win big sales. The 20% off I got at my flagship store wasn't 20% lost revenue. It was 30% generated revenue (assuimg the normal 50% markup that they have). They wouldn't have gotten the sales at all if they did not offer the discount. Sure, every purchase can't be discounted that heavily (you don't want the normal impulse buys to take that hit), but giving the single, zero-dependant employed adults a reason to spend their paycheck at your store instead of online is important.
Conversely, 4 years ago my DM put up an ad in the local FLGS and got....no response. Then went on enworld gamers looking for gamers, and another board.....and the 8 of us have been playing strong for the last 4 years. Every one of them is online. And some are part of other groups, and none of them were founded in FLGS. Online is where its done.
BTW, we're anywhere from 25 and single to 40 and married with kids.
For you, and I'm happy that it is. For me? It's not.
See, no response to an FLGS ad doesn't mean that the gamers aren't there. It just means that they're not responding.
ENworld's "Gamers Seeking Gamers" locator is another story - they're most definitively there or not there.
In my case, they're NOT there. There's a total of 5 or 6 people in a 50 mile radius of my location, and the closest one is ~25 miles away - not to mention, we're both looking to play different games.
I wish online was where it's done, but it isn't - at least, not in Oregon.
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Sure. I don't play in an FLGS. Ultimately, I don't end up using an FLGS all that much because they don't stock what I want.
Mine has some worse. Its not just they dont stock what I want, but seem to have adverse playing times, and a few other items that arent very attractive. They could beat Paizo's price even with subscriptions, and there are a handful of them I STILL wouldnt buy from.
I'm not saying that they don't exist, and I'm not saying their numbers are small.
I'll rephrase what I'm saying: It would not surprise me one bit to find that for every 1 person on an RPG forum, there are 10 that are not.
I don't disagree that there are a lot of us on these forums. There's just a LOT more people that aren't.
The problem is....thats made up numbers. It could be 1 internte guy for every 2,3,4,5, 10, 20 FLGS goer.....or it could be something like 2 for every 3. Or closer to 1 to 1. The reality is neither you nor I will never know. All we have is our adocteal evidence, both for and against. But given the downward spiral of FLGS(in general) I wouldnt be suprised if it was closer to 1 to 2 rather then 1 to 10.
There are alot of folks not on the forums. But conversely, there are alot of folks that dont go to FLGS anymore.
Now people are making up reasons to buy online where product prices are still at or under the rate of inflation.
Removing Paizo's products with a subscription PDF deal from the equation, your 10% to 20% discount referenced earlier is the exact range I had in mind that it would take me to buy local instead of online.
I don't expect a local retailer to beat online pricing. I do expect at least a token gesture towards an attempt to entice me to the store.
Play space does not matter one iota to me. What matters to me is a wide product selection, reasonable pricing, and knowledgable/helpful staff.
If I have to research product myself because the staff can't or doesn't do that, if the product selection is minimal and the price is full retail, the only incentive I have to shop at that establishment is because I do strongly believe that the FLGS matters to the hobby in some way.
Unfortunately, that's not enough incentive.
This isn't a slam towards the FLGS. I WANT to shop there, but if all they're going to do is carry the core PF hardcovers, I'm not going to do any kind of regular business with them.
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See, no response to an FLGS ad doesn't mean that the gamers aren't there. It just means that they're not responding.
ENworld's "Gamers Seeking Gamers" locator is another story - they're most definitively there or not there.
In my case, they're NOT there. There's a total of 5 or 6 people in a 50 mile radius of my location, and the closest one is ~25 miles away - not to mention, we're both looking to play different games.
I wish online was where it's done, but it isn't - at least, not in Oregon.
In some cases, yes there arent any gamers. Because in my experience the FLGS drove them out and away. Three times actually, in my experience, on the wargaming side. RPG side, not very helpful either(although now maybe, but since I wrote them off, who cares- I have the internet).
In my further case, FLGS around here are worse then useless. Their utter POS. Devode of any use or help. Yes thats plural in FLGS. In all my decades of RPG and wargaming, they have not only less then helpful, but actually getting in the way of gaming, as far as I can tell for me.
Very proud basement gamer.
At least here in middle of NY.(not in NYC)
The problem is....thats made up numbers.
It's not really a problem, because I didn't make a statement of fact.
It's an anecdotal observation based on the fact that if I travel to the stores within a 50 mile radius of my location, I see gamers. I see people buying/playing/talking about 4E, about PF, about other games.
When I get on ENworld, on Paizo, on WotC's board, you know what I do NOT see in any of the sections designated for finding local players? I don't see local players.
I've posted threads on all of those sites, attempting to find local people to play with, and I've gotten zilch for responses.
Further, as I mentioned, and others here have posted similar stories, out of my group of gamers past and present, I'm the only one that really goes on line for anything gaming related.
So, yes, it's anecdotal, but what it tells me is that there are far fewer gamers online than there are gamers.
But given the downward spiral of FLGS(in general) I wouldnt be suprised if it was closer to 1 to 2 rather then 1 to 10.
How I wish that were even close to reality.
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It's an anecdotal observation based on the fact that if I travel to the stores within a 50 mile radius of my location, I see gamers. I see people buying/playing/talking about 4E, about PF, about other games.
When I get on ENworld, on Paizo, on WotC's board, you know what I do NOT see in any of the sections designated for finding local players? I don't see local players.
I've posted threads on all of those sites, attempting to find local people to play with, and I've gotten zilch for responses.
Further, as I mentioned, and others here have posted similar stories, out of my group of gamers past and present, I'm the only one that really goes on line for anything gaming related.
So, yes, it's anecdotal, but what it tells me is that there are far fewer gamers online than there are gamers.
Your talking to someone that lives in a gaming dead zone. North of the city, south of albany and in between CT and PA....which means letting my fingers do the walking on the internet is the only way I've gotten gaming going on.
Anytime I (waste) my time wandering through the FLGS, I see alot of CCG players....but not many other types. *shrug* Your milage may vary, but currently thats mine. All of the gamers in my group are online in various ways, including our game stuff individual stuff is done online.
Other folks stories match mine. Some match yours. *shrug* It took a while before I found my current game, given the area. In fact there was only one other guy around here, and he bailed and didnt want to travel the 40 minutes to play where I went now.
Chief Technical Officer
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Paizo's subscription model does for Paizo (and to FLGSes) what Wizards' Insider does for Wizards (and to FLGSes) does: diincentivizes people to buy books. To a lesser extent, of course, but it's still there.
Our subscription model *requires* people to buy books. We do not offer PDF-only subscriptions, and we do not intend to.
Just to clarify something I was saying a few posts back. If you are selling product for over the, inflation adjusted, sweat spot price people will find reasons not to like your business to justify not buying from you. That said a retail business does not need to beat online retailers to attract customers, but they do have to sell products at the right place on the supply and demand curve. We've seen many game companies go to a full color hardback model causing the price of gaming products to rise faster than the rate of inflation. Now people are making up reasons to buy online where product prices are still at or under the rate of inflation.
The original sin here is moving to the higher hardback price point.
Hard cover vs. soft, color vs black and white, number of pages, these are often marketing decisions. Some people prefer pocket-sized books, others want 8.5x11, knowing which is more prevalent in your audience is key to selling books.
Regardless of which type you choose, often the profit margins on publishing is very slim. I suggest you check out various blogs where people in the industry talk about "making a living".
Fred Hicks talking about his financial situation.
The owner of Green Ronin, a fairly successful game publisher, still needs a day job to feed his family.
I wish online was where it's done, but it isn't - at least, not in Oregon.
The main problem is that if a group already has a stable game, they stop looking. I know my 4 player Pathfinder game is nice and solid and I haven't recruited new players in years. So there may be gamers near you that haven't been looking online for new players.
Anyway, which area of Oregon are you in? I grew up in Corvallis and still know quite a few gamers in the area. (I live in California now.) If you want to e-mail me (deinol at gmail) I could introduce you to friends I know who are in Portland, Salem, Corvallis or Eugene.
Further, same records show unit sales are down again for the 5th straight year.
You must be the only gamer I have ever met who reads all these financial reports. Hobbyists don't really spend their time doing much of that, so being a follower of a hobby makes little to no difference.
You can say anecdotal all you want, but a chain that started with three stores here now has THIRTEEN stores in one state alone, hands down they are the biggest and most succesfull hobby/gamer store we have in this country.
If I really gave a toss I'd touch base with them and find out how they are travelling in the retail world, but noting they have expanded so well and consistently I guess there's little point.
They are ubiquitous, if thats failure then I'd love to know what term you use for their competitors.
In my case, they're NOT there. There's a total of 5 or 6 people in a 50 mile radius of my location, and the closest one is ~25 miles away - not to mention, we're both looking to play different games.
I wish online was where it's done, but it isn't - at least, not in Oregon.
Funny, I never met new players (or joined groups etc) at an LGS, it was friends of friends, school (back when), clubs (as in nightclubs), and Games Cons.
I don't think anyone I know met people through LGS, mainly because our ones were all cruddy (with the exception of Tin Soldier).
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You must be the only gamer I have ever met who reads all these financial reports. Hobbyists don't really spend their time doing much of that, so being a follower of a hobby makes little to no difference.
This is why I said you must not play the game. No I'm not NEARLY the only person who reads GW finacial reports. There are more then a few, online(obviously not here on paizo since paizo really has nothing to do with wargaming/GW). But places like Motley fool, dakkadakka, and many other places, folks from all walks of life read them and disect them- including folks who are investors/brokers who can break down meanings and items.. Its interesting to read them, actual, and tells you alot that YOU for example, wouldnt know.
You can say anecdotal all you want, but a chain that started with three stores here now has THIRTEEN stores in one state alone, hands down they are the biggest and most succesfull hobby/gamer store we have in this country.
Thirteen stores in the land size of austrailia is really not that much, actually. Last I saw here in the US GW was approaching 100 stores. And thats nothing really, in comparison to the size of teh country(actual number now escapes me, as they have contracted. Which you can read about in the reports.
Yes, they are the WOTC of wargaming. Sucessful? Depends on the metric. as I stated, they are actually making less money now then they were 5 years ago, when you strip out the corporate speak and cost cutting and currency conversions.
If I really gave a toss I'd touch base with them and find out how they are travelling in the retail world, but noting they have expanded so well and consistently I guess there's little point.They are ubiquitous, if thats failure then I'd love to know what term you use for their competitors.
They have expanded. Great. They did so the last couple years in the US and then shortly ago, contracted and closed a number of stores. We'll see if that expansion holds, especially in light of the online selling ban from out of country stores.
Privateer press is to Games workshop, to what Paizo is to Wotc. Note how successful they(paizo) have been, as the 800 pound gorillas have been stumbling. Its been that way for a while in wargaming land as well.
http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2008/gw_year_en d_08.pdf
OK so not the most recent, but now scroll through to see about what they think of Asia Pacific, and the Hobby stores there. Have a look at the sell rate of store v retailer.
When you are done, we can continue.
Simply put, the trends are POSITIVE here and in Asia.
Nothing anecdotal, theres the figures.
EXPANSION
You are welcome.
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Thirteen stores in the land size of austrailia is really not that much, actually. Last I saw here in the US GW was approaching 100 stores. And thats nothing really, in comparison to the size of teh country(actual number now escapes me, as they have contracted. Which you can read about in the reports.
There are what, 307 million people in the US and 21 million in Australia? And Australia has 34 GW stores by my count. They are doing well down there.
Compare it to Canada, here we have 15 GW stores total, and 33 million people.
There are what, 307 million people in the US and 21 million in Australia? And Australia has 34 GW stores by my count. They are doing well down there.Compare it to Canada, here we have 15 GW stores total, and 33 million people.
That is pretty much the sum of it.
Per capita they are doing great in Asia/Pac, specifically Australia.
They have taken an obscure hobby that only the nerds in science class knew about and it's now a mainstream hobby in this country.
I can't comment on the stores outside my region as I haven't gone into them to compare the difference, and by the sounds of the landscape being painted there might well be one.
Sydney is a city of 5 million, have a look at how many GW stores we have in NSW servicing that 5 million.
I reckon LGS owners would be giving over their firstborn for that sort of 'failure' :p