The paladin's mount is a bit tougher, but the cavalier's challenge is stronger than the paladin's smite... so it evens out.
Totally forgot the template too. That horse has Resist Cold, Acid, and Electricity of 15, SR 16, Darkvision and DR 10/Evil and is a magical beast. Updated the spoiler
Thank you for this build. In my oppinion its even better as there is stated on horses at the bestiary that their hooves only count as secondary attcks as long as they are not combat trained (see the SQ docile for that) - what the are when becoming 4th lvl companion. So they are primaries! The horse has 3 primary attacks make it a full companion besides the additional templates celestial etc.
But lets stay a moment at the ability stats. I cant get them calculated like you did.
The advanced simple template states for recalculation an increase of 4 for every ability stat. Calculating this for 12th lvl I would come to the following results useing the base horse stats of a druid companion horse:
Stat|BASE|adv.Template|4th Lvl | Statincr.|Result
STR | 16 | +4 | +2 | | 22
DEX | 13 | +4 | | +1 | 18
CON | 15 | +4 | +2 | +1 | 22
INT | 2 | +4 | | | 6
WIS | 12 | +4 | | | 16
CHA | 6 | +4 | | | 10
Btw is there a way to make this to look like desigend by typing with somthing like [code][/code]? This looks redicolous as result.
Based on this the horse gets even better in the resulting other stats of you. So how did you calculate your stats or other way round where is my failure in understanding the calculation?
Btw this would give a paladin horse a sum of statpoints far beyond every other possible companion. The horse would have an surplus of 20(!) ability score points. This can't be balanced^^ (or I do not understand the rules to create one)
This brings me back to the origin part of my request when starting this thread:
* On whitch base the ground stats are calculated? Horse from Bestiary or druid animal companion list?
* Is the heavy template meant to be used? If yes in whitch way? Or is it fluff so that a paladin in full plate does not sit on an small araba?
* Count the hooves when combat trained like mentioned in the Bestiary as primary attacks?
* Not a question just to sum up: celestial template, possebiliity to summon, magic beast and Spell Resistance on top.
Just to be clear again: It is not - like mentioned before - this paladin horse hatred. I just try to understand the rules and the balancing behind it.
Best regards
Alandia
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What is the different between the Paladin's "heavy" horse and Cavalier's "combat trained" horse?
The Cevalier's horse gets combat training (see handle animal skill for this) from level 1. All other horse companions get this at level 4, as noted under the druid animal companions; horse.
The Paladin's heavy horse gets applied the advanced simple template as noted in the beastiray under the horse - heavy.
My biggest complaint is that the paladin's mount is better than the cavalier's.I agree. This doesn't pass the sniff test for me, either.
In my opinion there is something you forgot: The Chevalier gets no armorpenalty on ride checks, while the paladin does! Both fight most of the time in heavy armor. The Chevalier will probably pass nearly all checks on riding to prevent damage from his mount (as noted under mounted combat feat), but the Paladin will not (espaecially in lower level ranges).
The Paladin mount needs the better stats to not get teared apart form some evil outsider or other sinister creatures both Paladin and Chevalier battle all the time.
The problem is, when you see the mounts of each class and compare them with each other there might be unballancies. But the animal companion of every class is only one class feature. All of the class features together make a class. So in my opinion you can not view the mounts / companions alone.
I personally think the classes we are all talking about here are perfectly balanced. And in general it makes not big deal if one mount has some lower or higher stats than another.
And one last thing about the Paladin: Lets be serious, a Paladin must be lawful good which is in most adventures a real drawback. For example in our group the Paladin is giving away all sorts of things to the ones in need. He refuses gold for quests etc. he did, when the person which gave him the quest is not blessed with wealth and so on.
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Based on this the horse gets even better in the resulting other stats of you. So how did you calculate your stats or other way round where is my failure in understanding the calculation?Btw this would give a paladin horse a sum of statpoints far beyond every other possible companion. The horse would have an surplus of 20(!) ability score points. This can't be balanced^^ (or I do not understand the rules to create one)
This brings me back to the origin part of my request when starting this thread:
On which base the ground stats are calculated? Horse from Bestiary or druid animal companion list?
* Is the heavy template meant to be used? If yes in which way? Or is it fluff so that a paladin in full plate does not sit on an small araba?
* Count the hooves when combat trained like mentioned in the Bestiary as primary attacks?
* Not a question just to sum up: celestial template, possibility to summon, magic beast and Spell Resistance on top.
*You do NOT use the bestiary entry at all. Docile does not apply. The companion entry states that the hooves are secondary, so they remain secondary.
*You NEVER apply the templates to companions unless it explicitly states you do so in with the class ability, as the paladin does with celestial template, or in hte companion chart.
*The stat block I generated was using the Horse Companion and the level 12 line on the Druid Companion Chart.
Your statblock has a template applied and would presumably be for raising a horses hit dice outside of the companion use, such as a powerful purchased horse. It appears you ignored the druid companion chart completely.
A note about combat training. Combat training is a process of the Handle Animal skill and gives only the following...
Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
No mention of horses attacks no longer being secondary
The paladin mount uses the equivalent druid companion equal to the paladin level. Here is the process I used to make that horse in the spoiler:
Starting with the base stats....
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
Apply the level advancement stuff (Note no mention about secondary attack status being removed)
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
Check the Druid Companion Chart and add the appropriate bonuses for level 12....
10 Hit Dice, +7 BAB, +7 Fort save, +7 Reflex Save, +3 Will Save, 10 skill points, 5 feats (It is important to know the level and BAB when each feat is gained for feat requirements, not just any 5 feats), +8 Natural Armor, +4 Strength and Dexterity, 5 bonus tricks, 2 ability increases(4 and 9, which I applied to DEX and CON)
Apply the Simple Celestial Template....
Add: +1 to CR, Darkvision 60 ft, DR 10/Evil, Resist Cold, Acid, and Electricity 15, SR of new CR+5
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Just something about Cavaliers and Paladins vs Druids. Companions designed as mounts, like those for paladins and cavaliers, are NOT combat buddies that boost your damage output a great deal. Druids on the other hand, have the capability of having a formidable flanking buddy when the druid is built for melee combat.
Your statblock has a template applied and would presumably be for raising a horses hit dice outside of the companion use, such as a powerful purchased horse. It appears you ignored the druid companion chart completely.
You got me on this one. This explains your stats and the difference to mine calculation.
A note about combat training. Combat training is a process of the Handle Animal skill and gives only the following...Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for...
This would make sense if realy only the companion template would be taken. But on this case whats about this statement from James Jacob?
This part is wrong. You ONLY use the Horse listed under the druid companions. That has nothing to do with the Bestiary
The Paladin's heavy horse gets applied the advanced simple template as noted in the beastiray under the horse - heavy.
So the explicit so named heavy horse is just fluff or how do you interpret this? This part is also the text Liffy refers to for applying this template.
In the Paladin description it is clearly said:
[...] This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or...[...]
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Correct. It is fluff. Companions only use the companion stats. Do you see anything weak about the stat block I made for the level 12 horse companion? is it lacking or weaker than a purchased horse? The bestiary stat blocks and templates do NOT apply to companions. The only exception is the celestial template , which is given in the Divine Bond.
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In the Paladin description it is clearly said:
[...] This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or...[...]
Lets look at this exclusively for a minute.
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Then we have the
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.
Now, presumably, we have the following choices for medium: Horse, Camel
For small we have: Pony, Boar, Dog
You have to ask yourself. Now why would they have the horse be the only one listed as having advanced template? There are no Heavy Ponies or Camels. It says nothing about them, not to mention the boars and hte dogs. Why would EVERY other option suck compared to the super duper heavy horse? It is fluff, plain and simple and need to be struck from the description. It causes a tremendous amount of confusion.
*You do NOT use the bestiary entry at all. Docile does not apply. The companion entry states that the hooves are secondary, so they remain secondary.
-I'm pretty sure that's not the case. You're reffered to the beastiary for the combat trained ability. The horse gets combat trained at 4th level. Combat trained removes docility, making the hoof attacks primary.
This part is wrong. You ONLY use the Horse listed under the druid companions. That has nothing to do with the Bestiary
The Paladin's heavy horse gets applied the advanced simple template as noted in the beastiray under the horse - heavy.
The docile special ability is out of the beastiary, too. But James Jacob said that ability from the bestiary is applied. Where would you draw a line? The one thing is taken from the beastiary the other not?
But you are absolutely right: If the horse gets the simple advanced template it was stronger than all other choices. That seems a bit strage to me, too. On the other hand maybe the devlopers wanted to create a sweetener for Paladins taking a great whithe horse.
Animals with high Int scores have brains that run faster than other animals, but they don't have the software that defines a soul.
There's an interesting implication here that I'm not sure was intended: Because animals have no soul regardless of their int score, then they can't be brought back by Raid Dead, Resurrection, and Raise Animal Companion, because they all require the target have an able and willing soul.
They can however be brought back by Breath of Life because there's not soul stipulation for that spell.
I'm also going to assume that the last part of you post doesn't bar a Cohort from being a mount, just a mount from being a cohort, right? Otherwise, folks to take the leadership feat and want to ride around on a dragon never get the chance, and the Dragonne becomes a strange rules anomaly.
How does one reconcile these?
Also, the horse is dumb, unless you wanna be stereotypical and ride a horse as a paladin, just do as I said before and gain 4 lvls in paladin, 2 lvls in ranger or such then at 7th lvl take the boon companion feat and you can have a super mount or a combat companion/mount that does rather nice damage as well.
Except that the Paladin and the Ranger don't get their animal companions until lvl 5 and level 4 respectively. So no companions till lvl 9
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That would be debatable since their companion class features have have very specific limitations. I think they would stack only if they used shared limitations. The Paladin companion feature is the limiting reagent. The only available companions would be the paladin list, minus the Boar, which is not on the Ranger list
Hunter's Bond (Ex): At 4th level, a ranger forms a bond with his hunting companions. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed. The first is a bond to his companions. This bond allows him to spend a move action to grant half his favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear him. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the ranger's Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). This bonus does not stack with any favored enemy bonuses possessed by his allies; they use whichever bonus is higher.
The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A ranger who selects an animal companion can choose from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the ranger may choose a shark instead. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. A ranger's animal companion shares his favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses.
This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the ranger's effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3.
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
I don't see how 2 levels of ranger is adding to a paladin's companion level. The Ranger class doesn't even have the feature yet, not even counting that it is effective level of Ranger-3. The max level of the companion is noted in the Divine Bond feature, The Paladin's level as effective druid level
1) While similar, the Paladin and Druid or ranger animal companion are not the same class feature, they would not stack. A paladin's mount is called divine bond and works on one set of rules, the Druid or ranger has nature bond, which works on slightly different rules.
2) A requirement for boon companion is having the animal companion. Since you don't have one you don't qualify for the feat
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
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Wouldn't a dire tiger also be large, causing a lot of the same problems as the horse? Except the paladin can summon his mount a few times a day if s/he really wants it to be somewhere. The DR a paladin's horse gets would probably make that a much closer fight than it has any right to be. Overall I'm not really sure what the vs. accomplishes, especially since the ranger, who has the level -3 penalty, can't take a large cat companion.
While large, the Dire Tiger is far more mobile and should have no issue going up and down flights of stairs in dungeons and can go prety much everywhere the Druid goes.
You are right, the ranger is limited to small/medium cats, or prefereably a wolf (which becomes large I think at later lvls). Again, these companions are mobile, good trippers, effective flankers and do good damage especially against favoured enemies, even at -3.
I guess the easiest way to answer whether or not the Paladin mount should be at -3 to make it fair with the Ranger is this:
As a Ranger, if your choice is an animal companion at -3 or an animal companion equal to your lvl But MUST be a horse/camel, which would you pick? I know if I suggested this choice to my GM he would smile and be more than willing to let me make that deal
1) While similar, the Paladin and Druid or ranger animal companion are not the same class feature, they would not stack. A paladin's mount is called divine bond and works on one set of rules, the Druid or ranger has nature bond, which works on slightly different rules.2) A requirement for boon companion is having the animal companion. Since you don't have one you don't qualify for the feat
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
It is considered an animal companion, that has been stated by the game designers regarding if a paladins mount is an animal companion or something else. It does not matter if you get the creature through one kind of ability or another.
#2 Yeah...class ability, it does not state that you need to have the animal, it just says your class has to have that ability to have an animal which it does.
So when you take 4 lvls in paladin, then two in ranger, then the last one in paladin and for that 7th level take the boon companion feat it allows you to treat your paladin level as 7 when choosing your animal companion.
It seems as if everything has been stated in the past somwhere and noone seems to find the ppropriate sources etc..
This paladin mount building seems to produce a lot of confusing looking around the forums. Why is this not adressed in a official FAQ or in an Errata or even clarified in the Paladin description? Everything would be clear and noone would have to argue around some possible meanings from the developers.
So please to end this finally might it be possible that an official can cover this. In this thread a blog or something?
Best reagrds
Alandia
Yes, always use the companion stats.
where does it say that? it doesnt say a paladin chooses from the companion list. it says he gets a heavy warhorse wth INT 6, which means light riding horse + simple advanced + combat training & INT 6 according to the entry for "HORSE, LIGHT". the entry for "HORSE, DRAFT (Heavy) shows this (i thought that it didn't but i was looking at the HORSE, ADVANCED entry which is different and not what should be used). i say this because there is no "Heavy Warhorse" in the companion list but it says "Heavy Warhorse" in the paladin entry
then why does it say HEAVY HORSE in the paladin entry and HORSE in the Animal Companion entry? the HORSE, LIGHT entry and HORSE, HEAVY entry both specify the use of the Simple: Advanced Template for the Heavy Horse. my point is that the Animal Companion list not having Heavy Horse in it does not negate the paladin entry for a Heave Horse. Who uses a heavy horse if not a paladin? they need that extra strength to carry them, their armor, their barding, their extra weapons, etc. that doesn't fit with the light horse carrying capacity.
i disagree. if it is flavor text, the rules text is an odd place to put a single word of flavor. many on this thread have expressed their personal interpretation on the text as an official ruling. I would like an actual official ruling on this. does anyone know where i can find one?
i am searching the PRD. so far i have found several relevant rules texts but nothing as to the actual question "Does the paladin add the Simple Advanced Template to his mount" except where it says he gets a "Heavy Horse" in the paladin entry and nothing contradicting it. Also, i found two forum threads full opinions and people talking down to me like i ought to know better on what is clearly a divisive subject.
However, according to Bestiary 1, 3rd Printing, September 2011, pg 117 in the listing for Horse, it has in bold at the bottom "The stats above are for a typical riding horse, called by some, a 'light horse'. Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor, such as pulling plows or carriages. These horeses are called 'heavy horses' and gain the following adjustments to the base statistics detailed above. Heavy Horse. A Heavy Horse gains the advance simple template...." which clearly states the heavy horse gets the Simple Advanced Template. Challenge Accepted! and Defeated! BAM!
But i eat my own hat because according to Core Rulebook, 5th Printing, November 2011, pg 63, it no longer says "Heavy Horse" it just says "usually a Horse" therefore d20pfsrd may wish to update this.
thus answering the question as to Paizo's intention once and for all.
...this hat tastes like poop.
Take another look again. Pit that paladin's horse against a druid's cuisinart tiger and see what's still walking away. The celestial component is of absolutely no benefit to the horse against the tiger which is neutral no matter what the alignment of the druid himself. The horse also does not have any particular attack other than hooves and bite, not even a trip.
-Its only real combat purpose is charge (which is very good if you design a small char for it, but then the Horse is not independantly attacking so its lvl is somewhat irrelevant)
As far as I understand the rules - the horse is combat trained and can attack on its own? It gets feats and everything a companion also gets. Ok you have problems in dungeons or inhouse but otherwise it is a full companion.
It gets on top things like celestial template etc. So in my opinion lvl -3 would be fair.
Not to mention the druid spell list is miles above the Paladin's when it comes to supporting their animal companion. By the time the Paladin mount gets the Celestial Template, the Druid's going to have spells like Animal Growth to buff their kitty with.
The Paladin is a full BAB class with assistance from Gods. He'll manage.Not to mention the druid spell list is miles above the Paladin's when it comes to supporting their animal companion. By the time the Paladin mount gets the Celestial Template, the Druid's going to have spells like Animal Growth to buff their kitty with.Take another look again. Pit that paladin's horse against a druid's cuisinart tiger and see what's still walking away. The celestial component is of absolutely no benefit to the horse against the tiger which is neutral no matter what the alignment of the druid himself. The horse also does not have any particular attack other than hooves and bite, not even a trip.
-Its only real combat purpose is charge (which is very good if you design a small char for it, but then the Horse is not independantly attacking so its lvl is somewhat irrelevant)
As far as I understand the rules - the horse is combat trained and can attack on its own? It gets feats and everything a companion also gets. Ok you have problems in dungeons or inhouse but otherwise it is a full companion.
It gets on top things like celestial template etc. So in my opinion lvl -3 would be fair.
Indeed. But he manages by personally punching evil in the face, not by having a kickass animal buddy.