I have two players in a 15th level pathfinder campaign and I've come upon a bit of a problem.
One is a TWF ranger, the other a great sword wielding paladin with the vital strike feat chain.
Here's the problem. Vital strike has dramatically increased movement during battle across the board. This has resulted in it being very difficult for the TWF fighter to achieve a full attack action and thus gain the benefit of multiple attacks.
I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on how to balance this a bit.
I've considered allowing TWF as a standard action (the two highest BAB attacks only) and then awarding a free two weapon rend when used in this fashion. Then he could move and make a significant major attack each round while maintaining his character concept.
Perhaps this should be a feat like Vital Strike (perhaps called Double Strike).
Any thoughts?
I see how he could not get a full attack on his first round, but in the second round he should be engaged with the enemy so what is stopping him from full attacking at that point?
There's no single cause, and he does occasionally gain a full attack.
In Pathfinder enemies seem more mobile (admittedly because I frequently give them vital strike as well) and I play intelligent foes appropriately so they do their best to avoid receiving a full attack. If they can move, they do, even at risk of AoO (which is better than a full attack).
Combats at this level seem to last only 2-3 rounds on average (for this party anyway). So he's often unable to get more than a standard action.
When he does get a full attack he's very effective and usually kills the target, which then means he needs to move to the next one.
More powerful and longer lasting foes often have devastating full attacks of their own such that it would be suicidal for him to stand and trade full attacks with them.
Unfortunately he's constantly compared to a paladin who very nearly doesn't care if she gets a full attack and often has tremendous movement due to her mount (or haste). So she's able to reach a foe and vital strike them every round if she wishes.
So I'm looking for a way to make his standard action a bit more glorious.
Double strike seems like a possible solution to me that maintains his style rather than suggesting he follow the vital strike tree and mimic the paladins style (and less effectively by virtue of wielding one handed).
You know that vital strike doesn't work when you charge and/or when using spring attack right? If you do and you use the feat as written then if i was in your rangers place i would be happy if i couldn't make full attack often because that means that my opponents don't full attack me, which means that i stay alive and we (the party) still wins (quite easily i might add) the combat.
Sure i would be a little bummed if i couldn't contribute much to the combat but since we win it's ok, just the paladin made a built that can contribute more to this campaing, big deal.
I have two players in a 15th level pathfinder campaign and I've come upon a bit of a problem.
One is a TWF ranger, the other a great sword wielding paladin with the vital strike feat chain.
Here's the problem. Vital strike has dramatically increased movement during battle across the board. This has resulted in it being very difficult for the TWF fighter to achieve a full attack action and thus gain the benefit of multiple attacks.
I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on how to balance this a bit.
I've considered allowing TWF as a standard action (the two highest BAB attacks only) and then awarding a free two weapon rend when used in this fashion. Then he could move and make a significant major attack each round while maintaining his character concept.
Perhaps this should be a feat like Vital Strike (perhaps called Double Strike).
Any thoughts?
I think this is a very appropriate fix for what's probably a fairly common issue.
A Feat called Double Strike which is worded similarly to Vital Strike wherein a single off-hand attack could be added to the regular main hand attack granted by a standard action. Its only pre-req would be the TWF feat and it would be subject to the same limitations as Vital Strike (i.e. can't be used with charge or Spring Attack). I would reconsider allowing Two-Weapon Rend to apply under these circumstances, as the two-weapon fighter is getting a second chance at a critical hit already.
I'll probably immediately begin adopting this option in My campaign. Good call.
Yes, I'm aware that vital strike can't be used with charge, spring attack, ride by attack, or cleave. But that doesn't really change the situation for my ranger player.
Good call on the double critical chance Wiggz. Assuming I go this way, I'll drop the rend damage (unless he also picks up the two weapon rend feat then I'll apply it as normal).
Any other thoughts? More would be welcome?
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Yes, I'm aware that vital strike can't be used with charge, spring attack, ride by attack, or cleave. But that doesn't really change the situation for my ranger player.
Good call on the double critical chance Wiggz. Assuming I go this way, I'll drop the rend damage (unless he also picks up the two weapon rend feat then I'll apply it as normal).
Any other thoughts? More would be welcome?
If I'm understanding correctly you have a player who has built his character in a way that is sub-optimal for the style of campaign he's in (high mobility encounters) but wants to compete with another player who did?
Easy answer without changing the core mechanics of the game and MASSIVELY increasing the Rangers power is to tell him to use his Longbow. He can get all his iterative attacks and rarely has to worry about movement.
The Paladin player took a serious hit on his damage output in exchange for flexibility and it's paying off. The Ranger chose an inflexible build in exchange for high damage output sometimes (and is murdering things in a round when that sometimes pops).
It sounds like everything is working as intended here.
If you do modify the game this way are you going to compensate the Paladin for his choice as well? He gave up a lot of damage output for his choice and I bet he'd love to get a few more attacks around too.
Unfortunately, that's simply the problem of the TWF combat style, which is why Archery and two-handers are better at mobility damage, as TWF suffers greatly from losing full attacks. That said, I think a "Double Strike" feat wouldn't be a bad idea to even that up a bit, as the differences are obviously pretty major.
I have two players in a 15th level pathfinder campaign and I've come upon a bit of a problem.
One is a TWF ranger, the other a great sword wielding paladin with the vital strike feat chain.
Here's the problem. Vital strike has dramatically increased movement during battle across the board. This has resulted in it being very difficult for the TWF fighter to achieve a full attack action and thus gain the benefit of multiple attacks.
I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on how to balance this a bit.
I've considered allowing TWF as a standard action (the two highest BAB attacks only) and then awarding a free two weapon rend when used in this fashion. Then he could move and make a significant major attack each round while maintaining his character concept.
Perhaps this should be a feat like Vital Strike (perhaps called Double Strike).
Any thoughts?
I think this is a very appropriate fix for what's probably a fairly common issue.
A Feat called Double Strike which is worded similarly to Vital Strike wherein a single off-hand attack could be added to the regular main hand attack granted by a standard action. Its only pre-req would be the TWF feat and it would be subject to the same limitations as Vital Strike (i.e. can't be used with charge or Spring Attack). I would reconsider allowing Two-Weapon Rend to apply under these circumstances, as the two-weapon fighter is getting a second chance at a critical hit already.
I'll probably immediately begin adopting this option in My campaign. Good call.
Another thing to consider is that rogues (and any other class with sneak attack) would also get to apply that damage with every hit.
True, allowing multiple hits would mean double sneak attack, double weapon effects, etc, which would possibly unbalance it the complete other direction. If you were to homebrew such a feat, it might be best to rule it to only allow you to add Strength, Sneak Attack, and weapon special effects once, so you'd essentially just be adding the dice of the offhand attack to the hit.
Has anyone suggested the Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter variant? They receive an ability called Doublestrike at 9th that does this very thing.
Not to derail your post here but it seems like the ranger is quite the whinner. Lets see, you take out CR 16+ encounters in 2 rounds because you are meta-maxed and you are now whinning because sometimes it takes you 3-4 rounds?
Just kill the f+%#er by sending a similar build party after him and make him re-roll. End of concern.
oh, definitely just went back and re-read the OP's post... thought the TWF was a fighter.. not ranger.
Carry on.
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In Pathfinder enemies seem more mobile (admittedly because I frequently give them vital strike as well) and I play intelligent foes appropriately so they do their best to avoid receiving a full attack. If they can move, they do, even at risk of AoO (which is better than a full attack).
I don't think TWF is really the problem here, I think the problem is that you seem to be playing all of the enemy NPCs the same way -- as you stated above. If an enemy has the option of hitting one of the PCs with a full attack, why would they want to attack once and move away(provoking AOO's)? Are the enemy NPCs trying to win the fight, or are they just trying to make the fights last longer? Focusing fire and full attacks are what wins combats IMO, whether you are a PC or an NPC.
There is, of course, the Stand Still feat which basically interrupts movement as a combat maneuver, instead of taking an AOO.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity
due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make
a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If
successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn.
An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot
move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to
move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement
provokes an attack of opportunity.
Here is a 3.5 feat that does exactly what you want.
DUAL STRIKE
[FIGHTER BONUS FEAT, GENERAL]
You are an expert skirmisher skilled at fighting with two weapons. Your extensive training with two weapons allows you to attack with both while moving through a chaotic combat or fighting a running battle.
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two- Weapon Fighting
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success, using the worse of the two weapons' attack modifiers. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand, you take a -4 penalty on this attack roll; otherwise you take a -10 penalty. Each weapon deals its normal damage. Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each weapon attack.
Special: When you make this attack, you apply precision- based damage (such as from sneak attack) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the weapon in your primary hand deals extra critical hit damage; your offhand weapon deals regular damage. A fighter may select Dual Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Rulebook: Complete Adventurer (p. 108)
I have 'Two Weapon Pounce' allowedin games i play in.
PHB2 - whenever you charge you can make your off hand attack as part of the charge. You do not receive the +2 to attack from charging but still take the AC penalty. We let TWR work off it as well.
This puts the rangers damage a little over the two handed Paladin, but hey considering the massive number of feats he spent then why not.
A core solution is get him two gloves of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).
Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.
Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
Do what Paizo should have done already ... give the ranger some decent spells. Give him a 2nd level pounce spell.
WHAT Spell?!
Do what Paizo should have done already ... give the ranger some decent spells. Give him a 2nd level pounce spell.WHAT Spell?!
That was my reaction as well.
Ahhh.. Sorry miss-read your post. I thought you meant there already was a paizo spell which did that.
I know about lion's charge. Some 3.5 is allowed in our games, so I'll look at it again. It would be great if paizo did make a PF ranger spell that granted pounce. Especially since Barbs get it (with beast TYotem) and Fighter archetypes can get it (sorta with rapid attack- mobile fighter and dawnflower dervish).
All the drizzt haters aside, I like the TWF ranger stereo. Remember Legolas? he did it a bit. I subscribe less to salvatore's 'graceful' TWF writing (though he is a great author) and more the the savage TWF style alluded to by the tiger claw discipline alluded to in TO9S.
Ranger's SHOULD have some ability to rock TWF a little better. Either through a spell (probably the easiest option) for Pounce. Re-doing the Two Weapon Pounce Feat (and Leap Attack for that matter) or creating a new fighter only (ranger combat style feat) that allows TWF as a charge.
My favorite combo (in our PF/3.5 allowed game) is Two Weapon Pounce/Leap Attack/Rhino's Rush FTW.
TYhis is mostly a rant because given the absolute game breaking mayhem that casters can pull, we see no reason any full BAB class should have thier main thing (I hit things) become crap cause they had to move.
Anyhow, until a PF solution for the ranger comes out- Use the glove of storing trick to 2hand 1 weapon when you move/AOO and pull that offhand blade only for full attacks!!
Once you can do that you won't lag behind a two hander again.
How do you mean what spell? I was suggesting the DM create a 2nd level pounce spell and give it to the ranger, like Lion's Charge in 3.5.Re-read it. Nice bit i remember why i never memorize it now.
I had the TWP/Leap Attack/Rhino's Rush combo and all my 2nd level slots were full of the 3.5Hunter's eye spell :)
...Or the ranger can just use a double weapon and pick up the Vital Strike feats, as well (note that the ranger's Two-Weapon Combat Style feats do apply to double weapons in Pathfinder); switch between Two-Weapon Fighting for extra attacks and Vital Strike for a single powerful attack (expecially since double weapons can be used as two-handed weapons when not using both ends; extra Str damage and Power Attack without needing to drop/draw weapons when switching between fighting styles FTW). You also don't have to worry about having a free hand to cast spells; just release the double weapon with one hand (free action), cast a spell, and then return the hand to the double weapon (free action). Half-orc rangers treat the orc double-axe as a martial weapon (no need to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat) and can take the Toothy alternate racial trait from the APG (1d4 bite) to add yet another attack with a full-attack action (add an amulet of mighty fists to your magic items and cast barkskin on yourself daily).
IMO, there's no need to have more than a 15-16 Dex as a Two-Weapon Fighting ranger: take Two-Weapon Fighting at 1st level, use your Combat Style feats to take Double Slice (2nd), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6th), and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (10th), and take Two-Weapon Rend at 11th level. This allows you to have a higher Str (important to melee combat) and use feat choices that would otherwise be used on Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse, etc. for Furious Focus, Power Attack, etc. You can even multiclass as a fighter 2 (for the bonus feats) or take Heavy Armor Proficiency if you want to run around in mithral full plate (by the time you can afford it, the -3 armor check penalty is negligible and you can cast longstrider to counteract the slower movement); granted, a mithral breastplate is probably a better investment.
To clarify, the ranger player has never complained about anything. I, as the DM, have noticed the imbalance and am interested in offering him an option to make the game more enjoyable.
IMO an intelligent monster is going to know that a full attack from a powerful foe is far more dangerous than taking an AoO. Also I hate static combats. They're boring. Terrain becomes irrelevant once everyone is in the optimal position and then it's just an endurance test. So I keep the monsters moving even if it isn't always the optimal action. In 3.5 this just didn't work. In Pathfinder, Vital Strike has made this viable for two handed and one handed meleers, but TWF now requires little or no movement which seems at odds with the fact that it's typically used by the more mobile classes (ranger and rogue).
Venomblade, thanks for the feat write up. I'll probably go with that as my solution.
Some good suggestions here. Sounds like your encounters are very mobile and the character is suffering from it. I'd suggest mixing things up so that combats arent always the big moving fight that hinders the ranger. Perhaps having a combination of mobile and static elements in your encounters would help keep both of you happy. Also, if it were me, I would encourage the player to adapt, very much like Dragonchess has suggested, playing with only one trick in your bag tends to end up like this when that trick isn't optimal or fun.
STR Ranger,
Actually he already has a glove of storing but I've never thought to advise him to use it as you describe. He's typically stored his bow in it so that he could "sheath" it quickly when switching to melee.
Your suggestion might be the better approach, allowing him to two-hand on single attacks, charges, etc and dual wield on full attacks.
Thanks.
STR Ranger,
Actually he already has a glove of storing but I've never thought to advise him to use it as you describe. He's typically stored his bow in it so that he could "sheath" it quickly when switching to melee.Your suggestion might be the better approach, allowing him to two-hand on single attacks, charges, etc and dual wield on full attacks.
Thanks.
Then he's using a move action to sheathe his swords and free action to pull his bow and get 1 shot off.
If an enemy is in charge ranged (including flying foes- cape, boots, friendly wiz casting fly etc) he's better using the glove to store the offhand blade and 2handed charging. He can pull the offhand weapon next round and full attack.
Using 2 gloves works for falchion/bow users who can store their weapon in one glove, pull the bow from the other glove and keep full attacking.
You're welcome.
Using 2 gloves works for falchion/bow users who can store their weapon in one glove, pull the bow from the other glove and keep full attacking.
You're welcome.
Unfortunately having a glove of storing takes up your whole hands slot, so you can't have 2 gloves of storing.
Really?
Ahh well, at least one glove works for TWF. The combat style i mean, a REAL Fighter who was TWF would be wearing Duelist gloves.
Cheers
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I'd just let him attack with both weapons once in a round. I have always believed it to be a stupid rule that attacking twice when you have a weapon in each hand requires a full round action.
To make use of Improved TWf of Rend you need a full action, but to simply attack once with each hand should be standard.
Given that you have to use feats to use TWF and sacrifice Str (to have a decent Dex) it seems crazy that TWF should be so penalised. You have -2 on your attacks, you lose out damage due to less Str, you may lose out on damage because you forfeit Power Atk to help make up for the -2, you have to use up lots of feats....all this penalty which results in vastly inferior damage to a 2her if moving (even worse if the 2her has Vital Strike which he can get because he is far less feat intensive), and only competes with full round action at higher lvl is insane.
At lvl 4, An 18 Str 2her will be attacking wth 2D6+6+6(power attack)with -2 to Hit as a standard action (so, BAB +4 for lvl, +4 for Str, -2 for Power Attack, leaves +6 to attack assuming no magic enhancements)
Min Damage: 14
Max Damage: 24
Average: 19
A 16 Str TWF (I assume he will have at least 2 Str less than the 2her due to Dex requirements) does 1D6+3+4 (power Atk) with -2 to hit (BAB +4, +3 for Str, -2 for Power Attack leaves +5 to hit). (we are assuming two shortswords as that tends to be the plan in order to make full use of weapon focus if he gets it)
Min Damage: 8
Max Damage: 13
Average: 12.5
Summary: Lower to Hit, less damage for the TWF who has had to get TWF, Power Attack and also Double Slice (obviously TWF and Double Slice did nothing this round)
Now, full round attack is same again for the 2her, but the TWF gets to shine:
1d6+3+4, 1d6+3+2 (power attack is 1/1 ratio on offhand) with +3 to hit. Assuming both hit (which may be optimistic given the low modifier)
2d6+12 is the total damage
Min Damage: 14
Max Damage: 24
Average: 19
So, for the price of 3 feats and a full round action and a harsh +hit modifier, the TWF can average the same damage of a 2her in a round he gets to full attack.
This is without taking into account the 2her being able to get the Vital Strike line if he wanted with spare feats which would of course up his damage again. It also ignores the troublesome issue of mobs with DR which can be problematic for the TWF.
Even when you add in an extra attack with ITWF (yet another feat), the penalty to hit is crazy and you will likely not be power attacking with it and still missing. Obviously as you get higher and +Hit improves with items etc. it all helps but again, while you focus your feats on this line and gear etc. to keep Dex high enough, the 2her is free to roam with his Feats and also focus more on Str, and you still suffer more against DR as a TWF.
So, yeah, let the poor Ranger TWF with a move, don't allow Rend or ITWF/GTWF to be used except on a full action but a basic TWF attack will not be causing your Ranger to outshine anyone, in fact he likely still won't be keeping up with a 2her Vital Striker but at least the can be doing some damage
That's why we allow Two weapon Pounce....
If you bring in some 3.5 sources the problem goes away.
Two Weapon Pounce
Leap Attack
3.5 Hunter's Eye Spell
Rhino's Rush Spell