trukulo wrote: Hi,
I want a second box with:
- More classes : Barbarian, Druid, Explorer, Sorcerer, Ranger and Paladin.
- More races : Halfling, Gnome.
- More Pawns, lot of pawns.
- GM Guide 2 with another adventure and info about Golarion.
- Another Map, and a World Map.
- GM screen. (PLEAAAASE)
I don't think that's going to happen
I believe Paizo have stated a few times
That they will not do a BB2 or expand
the BB any farther.
Enpeze wrote:
Using a complex system and enjoying it is just one of many approaches to roleplaying. Systems like Savage Worlds, or BRP are very easy to play and learn and alot of excellent roleplayers and veterans are enjoying them. (not only casuals or newbies)
So in conclusio - one can say that rule complexity has nothing to do with veteran or newbie, only with personal preferences.
Indeed. I could be counted as one of those 'vetran' players. I've been playing since I was 12 (started with the real Red Box, not that aborted abomination of a poor copy from last year), and I'm 35 now. That's 23 years. People of all ages like to play my games. I have had a few cases of some people paying OTHER people to not play so they can have the open slot.
Savage Worlds and BRP are two of my personal top 3 games. nWoD is the third. Shadowrun and Battletch fight for 4th place because they both pull at my nostalgic heartstrings. Pathfinder and 4th Ed fight for 5th place, again because they both relate to nostalgia.
But my top 3 are games that are easy to learn, teach, prep, and play quick. Why? Because at my age I am not putting more time into studying a game book than I am for finishing my Bachelor degree.
Azure_Zero wrote: I don't think that's going to happen
I believe Paizo have stated a few times
That they will not do a BB2 or expand
the BB any farther.
Given that its an OGL system, it could be done by a third party rather than Paizo. There are already a number of rumours of such products in the works given the interest such a product has.
The biggest hurdle I see is going to be matching Paizo's production values, though I think an expansion book would be a viable idea.
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I *know* that the accepted wisdom is that there will not be any BB2 ("Expert") set of rules being produced, primarily as a) Paizo do not want to split their player base (BECMI Vs AD&D) and b) the intention of the BB was that players, when ready, moved onto the core rulebook...
However.... The leap from BB to the full rule book is a large one. Would it be viable for a BB2 to be produced, with the express intention of covering the same (or at least, some) rules as the core rulebook, but with an easier introduction? I am talking about bringing people up to the same standard of the core rules (or perhaps to 50% of them - there are a lot!), but without throwing them into the deep end, after they have just learned to dip their toes in and paddle?
Perhaps it is just me who thinks the shift from BB to the "full" game is a daunting one, but I think there might be a market for it. After all - in thery, with the BB, there will be a whole new set of players/GMs who may have never seen a rulebook the size of the core rulebook, and may be put off by it...
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skywaker wrote: Vic Wertz wrote: And there's a reason we stopped where we did: after 5th level, things start getting *much* more complicated. Multiple attacks. Lots of people flying. Spells that can't be communicated in four lines of text. I'm pretty confident that we *couldn't* cover levels 6 through 10 in the same space; I think even covering 6 through 8 in that page count would be a challenge. I have no doubt it would be a challenge, but that alone seems like a weak reason for rejecting the product.
The thing with a second product is that you don't have to replicate all the material already provided in the PF BB. So, equipment, ability scores, races, combat and skills all give up extra pages for these more complex issues.
Also, the GM book gets a lot slimmer too as you don't need to repeat the GM advice. I could see the Player book becoming 96 pages and the GM book becoming 64 pages in a second set. That's a lot of extra space inside the same sized product. It's not just about coding the second box. Hard decisions need to be made on thing such as modules, adventure paths, which assume the full Core Rules set and possibly more. a Beginner Box with no sequel will seqgue you into the Core Rules Set. A Beginner Box 2 essentially makes it into a new product line and the support issues begin. If you can't cope with the full rules set by the time you're running 5th level characters, you might has well just say you're running an E5 game.
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LazarX wrote: Skywaker wrote: Vic Wertz wrote: And there's a reason we stopped where we did: after 5th level, things start getting *much* more complicated. Multiple attacks. Lots of people flying. Spells that can't be communicated in four lines of text. I'm pretty confident that we *couldn't* cover levels 6 through 10 in the same space; I think even covering 6 through 8 in that page count would be a challenge. I have no doubt it would be a challenge, but that alone seems like a weak reason for rejecting the product.
The thing with a second product is that you don't have to replicate all the material already provided in the PF BB. So, equipment, ability scores, races, combat and skills all give up extra pages for these more complex issues.
Also, the GM book gets a lot slimmer too as you don't need to repeat the GM advice. I could see the Player book becoming 96 pages and the GM book becoming 64 pages in a second set. That's a lot of extra space inside the same sized product. It's not just about coding the second box. Hard decisions need to be made on thing such as modules, adventure paths, which assume the full Core Rules set and possibly more. a Beginner Box with no sequel will seqgue you into the Core Rules Set. A Beginner Box 2 essentially makes it into a new product line and the support issues begin. If you can't cope with the full rules set by the time you're running 5th level characters, you might has well just say you're running an E5 game. I will throw my hat into the ring here and say that in most cases it is not that you cannot cope with the full rules set - you just do not want to cope with it. People that are clamoring for a BB2 or Expert set like the simplified rules design - perhaps even more so that the full thing. And believe me - new players would rather stay with the BB style presentation and rules amount if they could choose to do so. Same thing goes with people that left Pathfinder because of the inherent crunch of the system. The difference between the full rules and the BB is rather huge and I cannot imagine a new player learning even a portion of it in time for say...the next session? The BB-style rules are simple, quick while still retaining enough PF flavour for people to like. And none of them best of yet they are still compatible with the full rules.
LazarX wrote: If you can't cope with the full rules set by the time you're running 5th level characters, you might has well just say you're running an E5 game. It's more a "Don't want" to deal with the full rules / levels. I'd personally love an 'E6' expansion set.... :) Add a level to the existing classes, a few more feats, spells, critters, etc, rules for "advancement" (1 feat every X XP, with slow, medium, fast option, ...), maybe 3-4 defined archetypes for each class showing examples of reasonable feat choices for progression, ....
LazarX wrote: It's not just about coding the second box. Hard decisions need to be made on thing such as modules, adventure paths, which assume the full Core Rules set and possibly more. a Beginner Box with no sequel will seqgue you into the Core Rules Set. A Beginner Box 2 essentially makes it into a new product line and the support issues begin. If you can't cope with the full rules set by the time you're running 5th level characters, you might has well just say you're running an E5 game. I have no doubt that a Beginner Box 2 would be a challenge. Beginner Box 1 was also a challenge. Paizo managed to find a way to overcome that challenge and I have faith that they can do it again with a Beginner Box 2 too.
You can do a Beginner Box 2 that not only feeds into the main line like Paizo wants, but also brings even more people into that main line. Beginner Box 1 already shows the way by creating a compatible edited ruleset. Sure, its not 100% compatible with Pathfinder modules and APs, but there is only a little effort to make it work. This is all it needs to do.
Paizo have said that they consider their setting and APs to be their bread and butter. The want a Beginner Box to feed these and not detract from them. However, the biggest hurdle for many people into buying those is the full rule system. A Beginner Box 2 could cater for that different taste in mechanics and have more people buying its APs and setting books.
Everyone wins, if its done right.
If Paizo don't do it, there is more risk IMO. If a 3PP decides to cater to that crowd (or WotC) then Paizo will loose the opportunity to capture them on its own terms and in a way that is most beneficial to it. If it does see the mechanics as just the gateway to the rest of its publications then making that gateway as wide as possible but still leading to the place they want, has got to be the best way forward.
Again having two lines that compete is bad. Expanding the BB into more boxes and more rules is a direct competition with the RPG line. This is fully ground for a 3pp really as no company wants to cut down profits by lessing there own sells with there own product.
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting two lines. I have seen suggestions for two entry points into the same line, if as Paizo says its bread and butter is its setting and APs.
Removed some posts. The links were not considered acceptable use. Also, please don't sling insults at each other.
ok sounds good.
happy gaming.
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