How do you reboot Wonder Woman?


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Lemmy wrote:

Heracles is a WW villain? Huh... I didn't know that. What's thr story behind the wrist things?

It's kinda sad that WW lacks original villains and has to mostly face off characters from the Greek pantheon... Like I said, it's difficult to give those characters an iconic feel when there are so many versions of them in so many comics, movies, games, TV shows, etc.

The amazons were enslaved and revolted and broke free of their chains. They keep the bracelets (manacles) on as a reminder never to be subjugated by man again.

Originally WW would lose all her strength if a man bound her bracelets together (thus subjugating her) but Dr. Marston (the creator of WW) was believed to have something of a bondage fetish... so... it seeped a little. His lover also wore two bracelets similar to how WW is depicted.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

A little?


Lemmy wrote:

Heracles is a WW villain? Huh... I didn't know that. What's thr story behind the wrist things?

It's kinda sad that WW lacks original villains and has to mostly face off characters from the Greek pantheon... Like I said, it's difficult to give those characters an iconic feel when there are so many versions of them in so many comics, movies, games, TV shows, etc.

You could just as easily say "It's kind of sad that Thor lacks original villains and has to mostly face off characters from the Norse pantheon."

I don't see it as a problem for either character. Part of tying a character to an existing Mythos is the ability to use that Mythos to tell new stories.


I think you could argue that Thor is established with an existing connection to the pantheon. He IS Odin's son, he IS Loki's brother, etc.

So when you see Loki's jealousy and conniving etc. you have the additional relationship of siblings and additional layers are developed. I would say that Thor's primary villain is Loki and it works from an iconic stance because there is this push pull relationship.

Diana is raised by amazons and blessed by the gods. So she starts off a little removed. You can even see in the JL cartoon that she reveres the gods and has that sort of Paladin code (they even made an episode about it). When she fights Ares or Hades she approaches them from a position of deference. I think it is hard for me as a audience member to fully understand what is happening there... How do you fight a God when you are not a god?

There aren't even rules for that in Pathfinder.

The retcon of making WW a demi-goddess/daughter of Zeus and NOW the Goddess of War feels so... odd... like they are trying to force this same dynamic.


What's in the box? wrote:

I think you could argue that Thor is established with an existing connection to the pantheon. He IS Odin's son, he IS Loki's brother, etc.

So when you see Loki's jealousy and conniving etc. you have the additional relationship of siblings and additional layers are developed. I would say that Thor's primary villain is Loki and it works from an iconic stance because there is this push pull relationship.

Diana is raised by amazons and blessed by the gods. So she starts off a little removed. You can even see in the JL cartoon that she reveres the gods and has that sort of Paladin code (they even made an episode about it). When she fights Ares or Hades she approaches them from a position of deference. I think it is hard for me as a audience member to fully understand what is happening there... How do you fight a God when you are not a god?

There aren't even rules for that in Pathfinder.

The retcon of making WW a demi-goddess/daughter of Zeus and NOW the Goddess of War feels so... odd... like they are trying to force this same dynamic.

Of course you have the same problem in reverse whenever Thor's on earth dealing with normal supervillains. Or when the new "goddess" Wonder Woman is.

And really, ridiculously powered people, whether gods, aliens, or just super-powered people are a staple of comics from way back. Those labelled as gods aren't always the most powerful of them.


Agreed. I think the term 'god' gets thrown around a lot in comics as sort of a reference of power.

In the Justice League cartoon the creators got a lot of flack because they show Superman getting beaten up and knocked around a lot. Superman fans were not happy about the character abuse. The response of the creators was that they were not intentionally trying to misrepresent Superman but that his character is so powerful there are few threats that would warrant they need for a 'group' of heroes, and that the audience could buy into the narrative more readily if they have the reaction: "Oh wow! XXX just trounced Superman! They team gotta bring it now!"

But the power level is simply a setting and a tool of the story. The deeper layers tend to make things more interesting. When WW fights against the gods now as a Goddess of War or whatever it doesn't exactly reshape the fact that she was raised on an island of woman warriors and doesn't have the same level of emotional attachment to their interactions (at least for me- it is possible they play up the whole: 'My daddy abandoned me' aspect that they could go with her character... idk if that works. I wouldn't care for it personally, but I am already against the whole Zeus daddy thing. I liked it when she was clay.)

One thing I liked about WW that I read in one comic really struck me as an interesting approach. She is Hippolyta's daughter. Making her the only one of the Amazon's to have a mother and to BE a daughter. The aspect of jealousy that was inspired in some of the amazons was VERY interesting. Diana is the only amazon never to have been subjugated by man. She approaches man's world without the same level of regard as her fellows.

Something I found interesting in the character.


What's in the box? wrote:

Agreed. I think the term 'god' gets thrown around a lot in comics as sort of a reference of power.

In the Justice League cartoon the creators got a lot of flack because they show Superman getting beaten up and knocked around a lot. Superman fans were not happy about the character abuse. The response of the creators was that they were not intentionally trying to misrepresent Superman but that his character is so powerful there are few threats that would warrant they need for a 'group' of heroes, and that the audience could buy into the narrative more readily if they have the reaction: "Oh wow! XXX just trounced Superman! They team gotta bring it now!"

But the power level is simply a setting and a tool of the story. The deeper layers tend to make things more interesting. When WW fights against the gods now as a Goddess of War or whatever it doesn't exactly reshape the fact that she was raised on an island of woman warriors and doesn't have the same level of emotional attachment to their interactions (at least for me- it is possible they play up the whole: 'My daddy abandoned me' aspect that they could go with her character... idk if that works. I wouldn't care for it personally, but I am already against the whole Zeus daddy thing. I liked it when she was clay.)

One thing I liked about WW that I read in one comic really struck me as an interesting approach. She is Hippolyta's daughter. Making her the only one of the Amazon's to have a mother and to BE a daughter. The aspect of jealousy that was inspired in some of the amazons was VERY interesting. Diana is the only amazon never to have been subjugated by man. She approaches man's world without the same level of regard as her fellows.

Something I found interesting in the character.

Actually I was saying the term really isn't a reference to power. In Marvel for example, since I'm more familiar with them, all the Asgardians are gods, but most of them are well below Thor and even below a good chunk of powered super-heroes, much less the a-listers. Plenty of earthly uber-villains are ridiculously powerful, but still not gods. And then there are the various cosmic powered alien types who still aren't gods - Watchers, Galactus, etc.

Similar patterns hold in DC, I'm just less familiar with them.

As for Wonder Woman, I like your take on the difference between Diana and the other Amazons. One thing I remember Perez playing with a bit in the post-Crisis revamp of WW was her gradual disillusionment with the Gods she'd been raised to worship. Not as personal as the family relationships Thor has, but there's something to work with in a crisis of faith in the guy you're beating up.


And rightly so... the gods getting all up in a tizzy about stupid crap and Darkseid and Vandal Savage destroying the world every other week...

If you are SO insulted by people NOT showing deference to you, maybe think about how insulted you will be when NOONE is around to show you anything at all...

And then it sorta falls apart.

Thor sorta explains that Valhalla is separated from Midgard, but... I don't know if Olympus is the same way with regards to the DC universe... Where are all these gods at?

Liberty's Edge

Technically Darkseid is a God too.

As for Kal-El, well, he was shown being stupid powerful at least three times in the Diniverse. Fist when he nearly beats Darkseid to death, then when the evil Superman lobotmises Doomsday, and the third was another beat down on Darkseid. Him beating up Bane while dressed as Batman doesn't really count, no matter how funny it was. I might have missed some, but those are the three that stick out in my mind.

As for Marvel, the Olympians and Asgardians are aliens. Galactus is pretty close to a god. As close as any non-abstract entity other than the Creator (aka Jack Kirby) can be.


Asgardians as aliens is a recent retcon, like Magnus the gypsy actually being a jew.

And Olympus, the underworld, etc. do exist separate from the physical world. Just like the various magic dimensions.

FWIW, in Smallville season 11, Diana uses the same hyper-advanced aliens story as seen in Marvel to describe the Olympians.


Ah, then I can understand their lack of interest in DOING anything on Earth... but where is the motivation for being worshipped???


What's in the box? wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

Heracles is a WW villain? Huh... I didn't know that. What's thr story behind the wrist things?

It's kinda sad that WW lacks original villains and has to mostly face off characters from the Greek pantheon... Like I said, it's difficult to give those characters an iconic feel when there are so many versions of them in so many comics, movies, games, TV shows, etc.

The amazons were enslaved and revolted and broke free of their chains. They keep the bracelets (manacles) on as a reminder never to be subjugated by man again.

Originally WW would lose all her strength if a man bound her bracelets together (thus subjugating her) but Dr. Marston (the creator of WW) was believed to have something of a bondage fetish... so... it seeped a little. His lover also wore two bracelets similar to how WW is depicted.

Heracles visited Hippolyta doing one of those wandering things that Greek heroes did. He came onto her in friendship and Hipployta allowed her followers to have liasons with Heracles men while she persued a romantic relationship with Heracles himself.

However it was all on a deception on Heracles' part as his labor was to obtain Hipployta's girdle, so one night he and his men pulled a Trojan horse maneuver and enslaved the Amazons. When they eventually broke free, they kept the bracelets of their manacles as a reminder of Man's deception and cruelty and their vow never to be shackled again.


GreenDragon1133 wrote:

Asgardians as aliens is a recent retcon, like Magnus the gypsy actually being a jew.

Not so much, especially if you've ever read the original Jack Kirby's takes on Asgard.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
GreenDragon1133 wrote:
Asgardians as aliens is a recent retcon, like Magnus the gypsy actually being a jew.
Not so much, especially if you've ever read the original Jack Kirby's takes on Asgard.

Even in the originals it's at best vague. There's definitely a techno-magic feel to a lot of it, but there's absolutely nothing explicit and a lot that points the other way.

Liberty's Edge

That's Kirby. Look at the New Gods.


Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman:Earth One is now out. I haven't read it yet, but read an interview with the author.

She has a lasso and bracelets - she doesn't need a sword and shield.

She strives for peace and talks first. In many respects she embodies the WMM concept.

She isn't the daughter of Zeus.

Spoiler:
She is his grand daughter. Child of Hippolyta and Hercules.
Given his reasoning, I can sort of accept this.


GreenDragon1133 wrote:

Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman:Earth One is now out. I haven't read it yet, but read an interview with the author.

She has a lasso and bracelets - she doesn't need a sword and shield.

She strives for peace and talks first. In many respects she embodies the WMM concept.

She isn't the daughter of Zeus. ** spoiler omitted ** Given his reasoning, I can sort of accept this.

.....

......

.....

Sooo..... What does he do wrong? Seriously, that sounds like the perfect Wonder Woman, but I as Morrison always does something that alienates me from his books, i'm looking for the catch.


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Somewhere out there is a three part random word choice for Morrison-esque concepts.

Kaleidoscopic Rainbow Bullet! Or something like that...


GreenDragon1133 wrote:

I really liked what was going on with Giganta in the comics before the reboot. She was still technically a villain, but she was dating a hero. I forget who, Damage maybe?

It was the Atom. They were both professors at the same university at the time.

There is kind of a great moment when Giganta and Wonder Woman are just sitting on an island talking about their lives. Giganta actually worried about if the relationship can last and Wonder Woman wishing her happiness

and then later Dwarfstar killed the Atom

Giganta did....so many things to that guy. She was very very angry.


phantom1592 wrote:
GreenDragon1133 wrote:

Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman:Earth One is now out. I haven't read it yet, but read an interview with the author.

She has a lasso and bracelets - she doesn't need a sword and shield.

She strives for peace and talks first. In many respects she embodies the WMM concept.

She isn't the daughter of Zeus. ** spoiler omitted ** Given his reasoning, I can sort of accept this.

.....

......

.....

Sooo..... What does he do wrong? Seriously, that sounds like the perfect Wonder Woman, but I as Morrison always does something that alienates me from his books, i'm looking for the catch.

I heard he thought about making her Bruce Wayne's Illegitimate daughter and having her hang out with Nightwing for awhile, then kill her off by a villain similar to other robins who died...but then had a better idea...

To have her killed off while stuck off in outerspace looking into a the sun while being held by Batman who's suddenly professed his long forgotten love after she went off and married someone else...

And while she is totally destroyed, somehow Bats is not...

Only to find she comes back as a teen ager around 5 years later.

{yes...an allusion to my all time most hated Morrison storyline...he should have stuck to simply killing off his own characters than trying to kill off others so his ridiculous affairs don't go bye bye with the next author).


Haven't seen BvS yet, so I can't comment on Gal Gadot's performance.

I binge read this thread today and have to say, I do not get the love for Jaimie Alexander as Wonder Woman. She's fine as Sif, but it's weird: the actress has a very winning smile that somehow never makes it onto the faces of her characters.

I've seen Ms. Alexander in Agents of SHIELD, Thor 1 & 2, Blindspot, and Kyle XY. Depending on the role, the adjectives that come to mind for her facial expressions range from severe to robotic. I don't believe I've ever seen her smile for a TV or movie camera the way she does in the pics from her LA Children's Hospital visit. It sounds stupid, but at this point I'm not sure she can; I don't know that the roles of clone, goddess and tattooed amnesiac automatically call for continual stoneface.


Gal is playing some chick with a sword. Not Wonder Woman.

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