I feel like they need more going on here for the Samurai, the one class feature just doesn't feel like enough. He should get a few more bonuses, I mean since you guys are going more in the historical direction. It would fall in line well as the cavalier gets bonuses to charge so too should the samurai with mounted archery.
Just make it easier for him to hit and run using a longbow with ease while mounted. And maybe some damage increases for move and shoot tactics seeing as there isn't a charge like multiplier for ranged. And samurai did train and use firearms but that might be venturing into territory that you don't want to go.
Just my thoughts on the Samurai.
That's really not how the samurai fought historically. Yes, they had bows and horses, but they were not fast moving skirmishers. That makes them fight like the Mongols, and they didn't. If you really want to be more historical, it's more likely to be a bonus to fighting with polearms, yari or naginata.
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Bluenose wrote: That's really not how the samurai fought historically. Yes, they had bows and horses, but they were not fast moving skirmishers. That makes them fight like the Mongols, and they didn't. Sorry, Bluenose, but you're entirely incorrect.
This has been discussed extensively on several of these threads, but the evolution of "samurai" through several eras changed our modern perceptions of them dramatically.
The modern notion of "Bushido" is really a Tokugawa outgrowth of the peaceful era of 1600+. Prior to that, the "samurai code" was Kyu-ba-no-michi ... literally "The Way of the Horse and Bow".
Samurai did "fight like the Mongols". In fact they were influenced and inspired to do so by the Mongols themselves as they imported Chinese culture, and moreover following the Mongol invasions of Japan by Kublai Khan in the 13th century. The art of mounted archery called Yabusame evolved directly out of the experiences of the Japanese fighting the Mongols and copying their technique.
Personally, I think the best route would be giving the Samurai Class a choice of "Combat Styles" much like a Ranger. This would allow the mounted-samurai or ground-samurai to fit both historical archetypes within a single class and end such debates in a single stroke.
FWIW,
Rez
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
What we do in Pathfinder isn't about Medieval Japan any more than it's about Medieval Europe. I think the existing systems are fine enough for the crunch dept. it's up to the "fluff" (How I dispise that word) or background setting material to deliver the rest of the goods.
Rezdave wrote: Bluenose wrote: That's really not how the samurai fought historically. Yes, they had bows and horses, but they were not fast moving skirmishers. That makes them fight like the Mongols, and they didn't. Sorry, Bluenose, but you're entirely incorrect.
This has been discussed extensively on several of these threads, but the evolution of "samurai" through several eras changed our modern perceptions of them dramatically.
The modern notion of "Bushido" is really a Tokugawa outgrowth of the peaceful era of 1600+. Prior to that, the "samurai code" was Kyu-ba-no-michi ... literally "The Way of the Horse and Bow".
Samurai did "fight like the Mongols". In fact they were influenced and inspired to do so by the Mongols themselves as they imported Chinese culture, and moreover following the Mongol invasions of Japan by Kublai Khan in the 13th century. The art of mounted archery called Yabusame evolved directly out of the experiences of the Japanese fighting the Mongols and copying their technique.
Personally, I think the best route would be giving the Samurai Class a choice of "Combat Styles" much like a Ranger. This would allow the mounted-samurai or ground-samurai to fit both historical archetypes within a single class and end such debates in a single stroke.
FWIW,
Rez I'm perfectly well aware of the variations in samurai equipment and fighting styles from the early Heian period through to the Tokugawa, thank you. I just don't believe that there was any period when they could be described, individually or collectively, as fighting in the manner of Mongol cavalry - or other steppe horse archers, for that matter. There are arguably similarities with the fighting style of some other mounted archers, but that's a separate question.
I agree, mind you, that "Combat Styles" is a sensible way to go. For the archery one, I'd suggest Precise Shot and/or Point Blank Shot are more sensible than some sort of shooting-on-the-move bonus. And I'd probably go with a swordsman style and a polearm style as well.
@LazarX
If it's not 'medieval' Japan, why use Japanese names for it?
Bluenose wrote: Rezdave wrote: Bluenose wrote: That's really not how the samurai fought historically. Yes, they had bows and horses, but they were not fast moving skirmishers. That makes them fight like the Mongols, and they didn't. Sorry, Bluenose, but you're entirely incorrect.
This has been discussed extensively on several of these threads, but the evolution of "samurai" through several eras changed our modern perceptions of them dramatically.
The modern notion of "Bushido" is really a Tokugawa outgrowth of the peaceful era of 1600+. Prior to that, the "samurai code" was Kyu-ba-no-michi ... literally "The Way of the Horse and Bow".
Samurai did "fight like the Mongols". In fact they were influenced and inspired to do so by the Mongols themselves as they imported Chinese culture, and moreover following the Mongol invasions of Japan by Kublai Khan in the 13th century. The art of mounted archery called Yabusame evolved directly out of the experiences of the Japanese fighting the Mongols and copying their technique.
Personally, I think the best route would be giving the Samurai Class a choice of "Combat Styles" much like a Ranger. This would allow the mounted-samurai or ground-samurai to fit both historical archetypes within a single class and end such debates in a single stroke.
FWIW,
Rez I'm perfectly well aware of the variations in samurai equipment and fighting styles from the early Heian period through to the Tokugawa, thank you. I just don't believe that there was any period when they could be described, individually or collectively, as fighting in the manner of Mongol cavalry - or other steppe horse archers, for that matter. There are arguably similarities with the fighting style of some other mounted archers, but that's a separate question.
I agree, mind you, that "Combat Styles" is a sensible way to go. For the archery one, I'd suggest Precise Shot and/or Point Blank Shot are more sensible than some sort of shooting-on-the-move bonus. And... The 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming Samurai, presented in Paths of Power, has 4 combat styles to choose from: Iaijutsu, Kenjutsu, Kyujutsu, and Sojutsu - sword-drawing, fencing, archery, and polearm fighting. At 11th level, they grow into Battojutsu, Nitojutsu, Yabusame, and Naginatajutsu, respectively. Each style allows access to a number of feats that represent special techniques for that combat style.
Yabusame, japanese mounted archery-jousting, just a reference for ride-by attacks while mounted.
Also, some more reference for everyone.
So; samurai were mounted (nouns) of every kind, and also fought on foot. Combat styles including the more advanced feats of the kind would be appropriate.
The samurai presented in Paths of Power, by 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming, does have different combat styles. For those favoring quick-draw and devastating cuts, there is Iaijutsu, which advances into Battojutsu. It improves initiative and critical range as the character increases in level. For those favoring well-rounded swordplay, there is kenjutsu, which advances into nitojutsu, allowing for fighting with the daisho together, one sword in each hand. For the polearm user there is sojutsu, which advances into naginatajutsu. These improve the character's ability to defend against charges and to effectively use the polearms of the samurai. Finally, there is kyujutsu, which evolves into yabusame. Rather than focusing on rapid shots, the art stresses perfect technique and accuracy - regardless of the position the archer finds themselves in, be it sitting, prone, riding, leaping, or even hanging by their feet.
Recent threads in Samurai Discussion: Round 1
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