Question I have while working out the details of a new campaign: what would it take for a Deity, such as Lamashtu, to enter the material plane?
I realize the answer might be in "Pathfinder Chronicles: Gods & Magic (OGL)", but where I don't own it yet I decided to see if anyone could steer me in the right direction. I can't be the first GM to intertwine the gods into my plot; someone has to have thought of this.
Gods and Magic largely avoids the issue of gods entering the material plane. After the Whispering Tyrant (a technically mortal undead and not a god in the slightest) slew Arazni, the tale goes, the other gods decided they didn't like the whole idea of 'being killed by mortal beings' and now, for the most part, act only through emissaries. Emissaries like their respective churches or Achaekek. Given that gods are rather epic in level and Pathfinder has yet to produce epic rules, I imagine that unleashing wrathful gods upon the world is something that you won't find much of in paizo material.
A god would only sent herolds, godly messengers. I can't think of a reasonable scenario in which a god would come himself to the material plane.
Unreasonable scenarios would include wars between gods fought on the material or perhaps as honour for the destroyer of the majorest (ennemy) artifact ever built. Any scenario doable by characters under lvl 20 would hardly be noticed by a god (except Deus ex machina help).
A (probably) better question would be, what kind of creatures would Lamashtu sent for a specific situation?
I am sorry if this sounds too harsh, and you are surely welcome to change this godly attitude in your games, but as a player who once met a god (in 3.5, godess of luck, during times of trouble), it's underwhelming. It's hard for the GM to create the right athmosphere and find the right descriptions without it turning into a long one-sided story telling time.
I've been doing some thinking, years ago, and came up with an idea that the demigods and lesser gods might enter a material plane and be slain there, potentially, but greater gods exist simultaneously on so many planes that they never fully enter any of them.
I am thinking of something like Flatland where, I suppose you could "enter it", but most of you would still be outside the plane.
There may or may not be rules for what a god can do on a plane. Probably the gods have a compact which limits their actions. Typically I have rules, enforced by the other deities, that prohibit gods from doing things like directly harming a mortal.
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To the best of my knowledge, PF doesn't have any rules for this. They seem to prefer leaving it up to the GM on this aspect.
I'll give you my own way of handling this in my own game world.
Nothing can actually enter the material plane without taking on the essence of the material plane. This is why angels and devils can 'fall' when the do so, that material essence gives them free will, and they can change their alignments (not easily, but possible), so you can end up with fallen Solars and Good Devils. This doesn't work on summoned creatures, because the magic only makes a copy of them (why a summoned solar doesn't 'die' if it's killed) that they can inhabit temporarily.
Actual travel to the material realm (via gate for example) requires them to basically take on the essence of mortality, which while giving them greater free will, also makes them vulnerable to actual death. As such, most gods wont' travel to the material plane. Devils or Daemons might, but only if they think the risk is worth it (this is why in my games, high level demons rarely travel to the material plane).
What a god can do, however, is create an avatar, similar to an Eidelon (in fact, I use those for the avatars now days). A true Deity in my game can have up to 40 levels of Avatar on the material plane. So, that could be one 40 level avatar, 2 twenties level avatars, a 30 and 2 fives, etc. A demigod can have 20 levels of avatar at once, 2 tens, 4 fives, etc.
This means that if a PC encounters an Avatar of a god, more than likely, that Avatar is going to be killable (A level 10 party should be able to handle a 15 level Eidelon Avatar, although it will be a dangerous fight).
I don't know what the official Pathfinder mechanic is (if it exists at all), but if you're running a homebrew campaign, that's largely irrelevant. It probably depends on personal preference, both as a DM and as a storyteller.
I've recently started a campaign that will have a heavy amount of godly involvement, so I've been thinking about this subject a bit. For me, most (but not all) deities can travel the planes fairly easily. In a manner similar to Norse or Greek mythology, the gods can and do travel amongst the planes at their leisure. If Odin wanted to travel to Midgard, all he had to do was saddle up his eight-legged horse and ride across the bifrost bridge. I'm planning on a similar approach. Unless another god stands in their way, most gods are capable of travelling wherever they wish.
That said, some of the other posters have suggested plausible reasons that would prevent gods from travelling to the material plane. In my homebrew world, only a few gods spend any significant time in the material plane. Each plane has qualities that govern it, and the mortal realm is governed by impermanence, which means that nothing is truly immortal or unbreakable so long as it exists within the material plane. Gods avoid the mortal realm because they're vulnerable there.
Some DMs might like the idea of limiting their travel, but IMO there had best be a good reason for it. Planar travel is possible among mortals (see the Gate spell, for instance), so I don't see a particular reason why it'd be difficult for a god. That said, if you *need* a mechanic, the same methods that allow PCs to travel the planes serve as a suitable method. I'd imagine most gods have access to high level magic, making it perfectly reasonable for them to Gate across planar boundaries.
Rather than asking how they get to the material realm, consider asking what happens when they get there.
There's a write-up on Cayden Cailien that basically said that he enters the material plane if you throw a ballin party. So...for some gods its as simple as throwing a really awesome parties, and for others it requires the sacrifice of a thousand innocents on the winter equinox.
Gods don't come to down to interfere because that is basically giving other deities permission to interfere, and deities making the material plane their own little battleground is not good for mortals.
This is the official unofficial response from Mr.Jacobs, but he also thinks a GM should own his games do whatever he thinks is best for his groups.
One other 'logic' I use in my games at various times about gods not being on the material plane has to do with leakage. A god leaks power in whatever plane he's in. Gods tend to live in planes that mesh well with them less because it feels more comfy (although it does) than because they don't damage the plane with their leakages. This explains why a Good Fire god that lives on the Positive Energy Plane often lives in a fiery region of that plane, his own presence gives rise to the volcanos and magma.
If I use this, then magic on the material plane is just the leakage of the gods avatars seeping into the material plane over history. They filter it up and push it into their followers, while arcane casters siphon it off for their own uses.
Thank you a hundred times all! I read through your responses and you've given me a lot to think about. I also spoke with one of my friends that GMs 3.5 and PF games.
It sounds like I'm on track. My idea is that one of the nightmare minions of Lamashtu discovers plans for a powerful device that combines magic and technology that acts like "Wish" but much more powerful. With this device, she could effectively re-shape the Material Plane to suit her whims in a mere instant, before the other gods (or other mortals) have a chance to react. Now, this would insight some displeasure from the other Gods/Goddesses obviously but she reasons that if she can get in and out fast enough, she can become incredibly powerful compared to the other Gods by essentially enslaving the mortal races into her service. This type of power is probably worth the risk.
sounds like a plot for a near epic group.
a little idea in my own image:
Nethys might be a good plot device, on the one hand he loves all magical advancment and on the other hand he wants to keep everything in balance.
a thing you might want to consider:
what happens if the PC's get their hands on that device? instant godhood?
My solution would be to have an underwhelming end in the misfunctioning of the device. Lamashtu is mad after all.
Yeah Richard, these are actually intro characters. The idea is not to have them fight a deity, just thwart their plans, even if its alerting the other gods as to what is going on.
The machine itself can only be used by a God or demi-God. Part of the design is that it forces the deity to step into the material plane. The machine cannot, for instance, be transported to the Outer plane, because the crystalline matrix "battery" that it uses can only be powered by the souls of the lesser beings, primarily humanoid in nature.
Lamashtu has actually deceived Pharasma by altering the time stream where she gathers her visions into thinking that a cataclysm will happen in the next year or two which has two possible outcomes: humble the mortals of Golorian into realizing their mortality, resulting in wars and petty squabbles/crimes set aside and the majority of the population turning to the Gods of Good, or two, demons pour out from a portal to the Abyss and enslave humanity to serve evil. Good ruse since that's what Lamashtu plans to do - distract Pharasma's attention when the machine is ready to use, jump into the mortal realm, use the machine to bend the Material Plane to her will, then jump back out.
Lamashtu has one of her worshipers leave the plans for the machine somewhere for one of Pharasma's followers to find it, Pharasma decides that it is for the greater "good" to keep the balance and not let Good or Evil triumph for an extended period of time, sets to work building it and gathering the souls of the dead discreetly to power it. Along the way our heroes slowly unravel the plot and have the option to deal with this threat how they will. I suppose if they decide to try and destroy Lamashtu on their own, it will be a fun TPK. :)
A misfunction in the device is probable though, since its all theoretical. They only have plans, no one has had the resources to build it.
Thanks for the input Charles. I just ran to my FLGS and looked at the Book of the Damned II but I didn't have time to read the whole entry on Lamashtu. So many books I'd love to have but I need to decide what is most critical for this campaign before payday.
Well Rovagug is still on the material plane in his prison. I would guess Deskari pops into the Worldwound to check things out every once in a while and the Worldwound itself is a melding of the material plane and the Abyss.
A god? Free action. Why? Because it's a GOD.
This is true...but it also isn't. Why? Because, while it's almost literally just a quick sidetrek for most of them...Golarion has been declared a no-fly zone for Gods, by the Gods themselves, for the safety of themselves. If they enter the material plane a)they are vulnerable (basically putting up a neon sign with "God over Here!" scrawled in bright yellow) b) the other gods may see it as a power grab and attempt to power grab too.
Even Cayden Cailien gets scrutinized whenever he goes out to the material plane to party. Everyone thinks he's harmless, though, so he gets away with it.
So, like I said...nothing can stop them from entering the material plane, however doing so is highly frowned upon by other, equally powerful gods.
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Oh, I agree that they don't often do it, but the question wasn't 'Do the gods frequently enter the Material Plane', it was 'What would it take for a deity to enter the material plane?' To which the answer is: the desire to enter the material plane. Hell, Desna apparently makes her permanent home there.
If the being you worship has to expend actual effort to flit accrose the planes of existence, maybe you should stop worhipping Bob the high level mage and start worshiping an actual deity.
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I just found this post and since it is relevant to actions that will take place in my campaign I figured I would toss my questions in this thread.
So what if a person succeeded in passing the Test of the Starstone? Would they immediately have to ascend? I mean, they don't have the same sense of self preservation that the other gods have and they may not even be aware of what staying on the prime material plane means; they just became a god.
My own take on it is they may not be ready to go, maybe they went to the Starstone for the power needed to defeat some powerful foe like Arazni or Geb.
Thoughts?
Creative Director
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There's nothing physical or metaphysical preventing a god from manifesting on the Material Plane. That said... it DOES cause a sort of ripple effect—if one deity does it, then that deity's enemies do it, and those deities then follow suit, and suddenly you have gods and goddesses all over the place fiddling with things in a tangle of mutually assured destruction.
As a result... the gods generally do NOT physically manifest on the world. If they do, they do so in disguise and try hard NOT to make a big scene or impression, and if they do, they beat feat fast so as no to get in trouble or rile things up. Because, as mentioned above, there are incidents in the past where deities DID do just this and it caused problems.
The gods generally rely upon powerful outsiders or the worshipers of their church to take care of things on the material plane as a result.
I think most of the above applies to gods who live on other planes.
Because besides them, there are other Gods who ALREADY live on the Material Plane.
As mentioned above, Rovagug. And Desna lives in the Dark Tapestry, which is part of the Material Plane.
Probably others I´m overlooking do so as well.
I think most of the above applies to gods who live on other planes.
Because besides them, there are other Gods who ALREADY live on the Material Plane.
As mentioned above, Rovagug. And Desna lives in the Dark Tapestry, which is part of the Material Plane.
Probably others I´m overlooking do so as well.
Urgathoa became deity by coming to the material plane.
Also...
IIRC the last time a god did something directly in person across the multiverse was when Desna decided to get rid of some demon lord. It didn't go well.
Which demon lord was it? And what exactly were the consequences of that move? *Doesn't recall at the moment*
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I don't think you can call Iomedae, Cayden and Norgorber nascent deities. That aside, I think I'm going to go with the avatar method of gods appearing in the Prime Material plane. That way only the host dies and the god is unscathed. I figure that as long as they aren't sinking islands, raising mountains, destroying nations, etc. they can move about that way unnoticed by the other gods.
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IIRC the last time a god did something directly in person across the multiverse was when Desna decided to get rid of some demon lord. It didn't go well.Which demon lord was it? And what exactly were the consequences of that move? *Doesn't recall at the moment*
This story's told on pages 30–31 of Lords of Chaos. Aolar, demon lord of the Hunt, was out killing worshipers of Desna so Desna went Rambo on her, invaded her Abyssal lair, and killed her, in so doing releasing the captured souls of countless worshipers of other deities whom Aolar had captured over the ages. But when the other demon lords noticed a few moments later, they started banding up—Desna's act almost caused the demon lords to unite in a single-minded army of revenge, and even the gods wouldn't be able to stop something like that without taking a lot of damage or suffering some losses. Several last minute treacheries among the demon lords caused the unification to collapse at the last minute (some believe that Calistria, disguised as a demon lord, caused this collapse). Desna would likely have suffered some severe repercussions had not Sarenrae, Calistria, and Shelyn (all of whom had worshipers who were rescued from Aolar by Desna) intervened with support.
Aolar remains one of the dead demon lords bound in the Rift of Repose, but since then, no god has tried to directly intervene in the workings of the Abyss. They avoid meddling directly among ALL other lesser creatures as well for similar reasons.
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I don't think you can call Iomedae, Cayden and Norgorber nascent deities. That aside, I think I'm going to go with the avatar method of gods appearing in the Prime Material plane. That way only the host dies and the god is unscathed. I figure that as long as they aren't sinking islands, raising mountains, destroying nations, etc. they can move about that way unnoticed by the other gods.
Correct; Iomedae, Cayden, and Norgorber are full on deities.
Golarion basically has 3 categories of divine powers.
Deities are at the top—they don't have stat blocks and can't be killed by mortals. This is the category Iomedae, Cayden, and Norgorber are found in.
Demigods are one step lower—these are things like empyrial lords and demon lords. They some day WILL have stat blocks (once we solve the post-20th-level riddle) and can be killed by mythic mortals—their CR scores would range from about 26 to around 40, I'm guessing. This is likely the category that Iomedae, cayden, and Norgorber were in just AFTER they took the Test of the Starstone.
Nascent demigods (such as the nascent demon lords or perhaps really powerful mythic heroes) are CR 21 to CR 25. They can be killed by mortals, but it's a tough fight! This is likely the category that Iomedae, cayden, and Norgorber were in just BEFORE they took the Test of the Starstone.
What category is Ydersius in? Despite his having a realm on the Outer Sphere, half-killing his presence on Golarion seems to have seriously borked his divine powers.
Create a new god for your campaign?
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Aolar, demon lord of the Hunt, was out killing worshipers of Desna so Desna went Rambo on her, invaded her Abyssal lair, and killed her,Desna, kind-hearted goddess of rainbows and butterflies and righteous demon-smiting retribution!
Desna's a nice gal, but she's also a bad-ass. After all, she's the only deity in the game who went and invented a special weapon that got its way into the core rulebook. Not even Gorum can claim that!
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Correct; Iomedae, Cayden, and Norgorber are full on deities.Golarion basically has 3 categories of divine powers.
Deities are at the top—they don't have stat blocks and can't be killed by mortals. This is the category Iomedae, Cayden, and Norgorber are found in.
Demigods are one step lower—these are things like empyrial lords and demon lords. They some day WILL have stat blocks (once we solve the post-20th-level riddle) and can be killed by mythic mortals—their CR scores would range from about 26 to around 40, I'm guessing. This is likely the category that Iomedae, cayden, and Norgorber were in just AFTER they took the Test of the Starstone.
Nascent demigods (such as the nascent demon lords or perhaps really powerful mythic heroes) are CR 21 to CR 25. They can be killed by mortals, but it's a tough fight! This is likely the category that Iomedae, cayden, and Norgorber were in just BEFORE they took the Test of the Starstone.
Thanks James, that is basically what I had been thinking all along. It's hard to picture Cayden, given the stories told of him, being CR 21-25. I thought he got "drunk" lucky and basically stumbled through the Test of the Starstone but maybe that's what he wants everyone to think...
I'm guessing that the rule with Cayden Cailean appearing at your party is that it has to be a really good party and everyone has to be exceedingly drunk to the point that next morning nobody knows if that nice guy who said his name was Cayden Cailean was actually THE Cayden Cailean. Kind of like going to a party in Mexico and meeting some guy named "Jesus." It's kind of a common name....
What category is Ydersius in? Despite his having a realm on the Outer Sphere, half-killing his presence on Golarion seems to have seriously borked his divine powers.That's a complicated example. So complicated, in fact, that we did an entire adventure path about it.
I know, and I've read it, and I still don't understand it. n.n;
Why did Ydersius have such a strong presence on Golarion that half-killing him caused his favored species to collapse into savagery? Aroden was the god of humanity, and he's really most sincerely dead, and Golarion humans show no sign of regressing into Neanderthals or ape-men or whatever.
Gods have no stat block and cannot be killed by mortals -- and yet Ydersius was decapitated in combat with an Azlanti. If this was an avatar and not the true Ydersius, why is there no mention anywhere of a fully-divine Ydersius still present in the Outer Sphere, and why can he not properly answer his priests? If it was more than an avatar, how was he able to be half-killed like that?
Serpent's Skull, to the best of my recollection, not only doesn't answer this but barely even considers it a question. There's a half-dead god, his worshippers are trying to resurrect him, stop them now! The end.
...My best guess is that Ydersius manifested in a way that was so incredibly stupid that he's been an example to the other gods of How Not To Make An Avatar for over ten thousand years since. ^.^
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Why did Ydersius have such a strong presence on Golarion that half-killing him caused his favored species to collapse into savagery? Aroden was the god of humanity, and he's really most sincerely dead, and Golarion humans show no sign of regressing into Neanderthals or ape-men or whatever.
Gods have no stat block and cannot be killed by mortals -- and yet Ydersius was decapitated in combat with an Azlanti. If this was an avatar and not the true Ydersius, why is there no mention anywhere of a fully-divine Ydersius still present in the Outer Sphere, and why can he not properly answer his priests? If it was more than an avatar, how was he able to be half-killed like that?
Serpent's Skull, to the best of my recollection, not only doesn't answer this but barely even considers it a question. There's a half-dead god, his worshippers are trying to resurrect him, stop them now! The end.
...My best guess is that Ydersius manifested in a way that was so incredibly stupid that he's been an example to the other gods of How Not To Make An Avatar for over ten thousand years since. ^.^
Well... the fact that...
There's nothing physical or metaphysical preventing a god from manifesting on the Material Plane. That said... it DOES cause a sort of ripple effect—if one deity does it, then that deity's enemies do it, and those deities then follow suit, and suddenly you have gods and goddesses all over the place fiddling with things in a tangle of mutually assured destruction.
As a result... the gods generally do NOT physically manifest on the world. If they do, they do so in disguise and try hard NOT to make a big scene or impression, and if they do, they beat feat fast so as no to get in trouble or rile things up. Because, as mentioned above, there are incidents in the past where deities DID do just this and it caused problems.
The gods generally rely upon powerful outsiders or the worshipers of their church to take care of things on the material plane as a result.
This whole post makes me happy. It jives perfectly with how my campaign works. I explained it in detail in the death of Aroden thread from a little while back. Part I didn't describe is that Pharasma has reasons for wanting to personally be involved in what's going on, but she doesn't want to give herself away. So she is there as a mute child version of herself with a witch as a caretaker (who doesn't know her patron is Pharasma).
She has helped the PCs by giving them prophecies. She dips her fingers into colored inks or chalk and touches something and a portrait is magically formed. I decided this particular avatar of her only provides visions of death, so the PCs (or the witch behind the scenes) have to interpret these visions and use them to their benefit.
Ydersius was (and still is) a demigod, in any event.
Okay, that's the part that I must have missed somewhere, thanks. :)
Ydersius was (and still is) a demigod, in any event.
Okay, good. He's one of the few CE gods who has my deepest respect. The multiverse would be a worse place without Him than, say, without Rovagug.
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On a more serious note, all the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods live on the Material Plane.
And we're back to Desna again, who also comes from the Dark Tapestry, and, quite likely, is closer relations with Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath than with Shelyn and Calistria...
On a more serious note, all the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods live on the Material Plane.And we're back to Desna again, who also comes from the Dark Tapestry, and, quite likely, is closer relations with Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath than with Shelyn and Calistria...
Oooooo.....
Ideas...
