I've just posted my Revised Multiclass Archetypes pdf with guidelines included, typo fixes, streamlining, and less pics.
Multiclass Archetypes Revised This should take you to it.
If not use Elghinn Lightbringer and go to the Multiclass Archetypes folder.
My Multiclass Archetpes II (APG) should follow int he next week or two.
What I've found, more or less, is all the abilities can be broken down to 1 point ability. I haven't worked those ALL out yet. For example, break down sneak attack to 1d6 = 1 point, 1 smiteevil/day = 1 point, 1 rogue talent = 1 point, 1d6 bomb = 1 point, etc.
...
I may have to go through it again, but those were the results. I may take another look at it and see if I can figure our a way to balance things. If you'd like to see my matrix as it sits currently, I can always post it to my pdf site.
Definitely post a PDF of what you've got so far. I'm interested to see your system.
Also, for the hell of it I tried my hand at devising a system this afternoon; I've got the barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, rogue, and wizard all broken down into their various parts, and so far they measure up well—all in the 15-16 "point"/level range after 1st level. I'm using "points" to represent advantages in BAB, HD, saves, skills, and class features at each level, in addition to proficiencies and class skills @ level 1. Haven't tried swapping stuff around yet to test balance, but things seems reasonable.
Just on the off chance -- Would you be interested in collaboration?
In any event let's see what you have :)
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I shall post my Matrix when I get a chance. Here's the Basic rules I followed, and My break down of the Barbarian. Most have worked out to be in the 45-55 point range. So I may make a tier style point buy system, sort of like the Ability point buy system for character creation used in the Core Rulebook.
Rank Key Description
3 Level 17-20, 9th level bonus spell, full class ability, full level bonus
2 Level 9-16, feat (fighter), feat (metamagic/item creation), talent (rogue), 5th-8th level bonus spell, 1/2 class level bonus
1 Level 1-8, feat, +1 bonus (attack, damage, AC, saves), +2 skills bonus, 1/day use, +1d6 ability, 1st-4th level bonus spell, 1/4 class level bonus
Read as follows: Feature/# (point cost)/class designations
Hit Dice
d12 3 barbarian
d10 2 cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, paladin, ranger
d8 1 alchemist, bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, magus, monk, oracle, rogue, summoner
d6 0 sorcerer, wizard, witch
Base Attack Bonus (BAB)
Full attack bonus 2 barbarian, cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, paladin, ranger
Three-quarter attack bonus 1 alchemist, bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, magus, monk, oracle, rogue, summoner
Half attack bonus 0 sorcerer, wizard, witch
Saves
3 good saves 2 monk
2 good saves 1 alchemist, bard, cleric, druid, gunslinger, inquisitor, paladin, ranger, rogue,
1 good save 0 barbarian, cavalier, fighter, oracle, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, witch
Spellcasting
Full caster (1st-9th) 3 cleric, druid, oracle, sorcerer, wizard, witch
Three-quarter caster (1st-6th) 2 alchemist, bard, inquisitor, magus, oracle, summoner,
Half caster (1st-4th) 1 paladin, ranger
No spellcasting/Cantrips/Orisons 0 (bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, magus, oracle, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, witch)
Skill Ranks
+8 ranks/level 3 rogue
+6 ranks/level 2 bard, inquisitor, ranger
+4 ranks/level 1 alchemist, barbarian, cavalier, druid, gunslinger, monk, oracle
+2 ranks/level 0 cleric, fighter, magus, oracle, paladin, sorcerer, summoner, wizard, witch
Armor Proficiency
Heavy armor 3 cavalier, fighter, paladin,
Medium armor 2 barbarian, cleric, druid, inquisitor, oracle, ranger
Light armor 1 alchemist, bard, gunslinger, magus, rogue, summoner
Shield/no armor 0 monk, sorcerer, wizard, witch
Weapon Proficiency
Martial weapons 2 barbarian, cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, magus, paladin, ranger, summoner
Simple weapons 1 alchemist, bard, cleric, inquisitor, oracle, rogue, sorcerer, wizard, witch
Weapon set 0 druid, monk
Read as follows: Ability(level attained or ability designate)/# (point cost)/ability effect/ability improvement interval
Barbarian (49 total points)
HD (d12) 3
BAB (full) 2
Saves I (1 good) 0
Spellcasting (none) 0
Skill ranks (+4) 1
Armor (medium) 2
Weapons (martial) 2
Fast movement (1st) 1 +10 feet —
Rage (1st) 3 Str/Con +4, +2 Will saves, -2 AC 4+Con+2 rnds per level/day
Greater rage (11th) 2 Str/Con +6, +3 Will saves, -2 AC —
Tireless rage (17th) 3 no longer fatigued after rage —
Mighty rage (20th) 3 Str/Con +8, +4 Will saves, -2 AC —
Rage power (2nd) 1 (10) select rage powers from a list 1 per 2 levels after 1st
Uncanny dodge (2nd) 1 never caught flat-footed —
Improved uncanny dodge (5th) 1 no flank or sneak attack —
Trap sense (3rd) 1 (6) +1 Reflex save and dodge AC +1 per 3 levels (max +6) after 3rd
Damage reduction (7th) 1 (5) reduce damage taken 1 per 3 levels (max 5/—) after 7th
Indomitable will (14th) 4 +4 Will save vs. enchantments —
I really hate that you can't keep your info layout when you post in the forums.
Here's the point totals for the Core Classes I've done. the paladin is the highest, but he's also one of the most restrictive classes, as is the monk. Maybe need to add in a restriction adjuster to a class's overall points, such as -2 for alignment restriction, -2 for code of conduct, etc? Anyways, here they are. I'm doing the APG next.
Barbarian (49)
Bard (50)
Cleric (50)
Druid (50)
Fighter (50)
Monk (54)
Paladin (58)
Ranger (51)
Rogue (53)
Sorcerer (48)
Wizard (50)
Ooh! And just as I was nitpicking my way through the second half of the classes, you come out with the revised version. Damn you.
Oh well, I guess I just have a new document to nitpick.
Also, I want that art! Could you post what you searched for to find it?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
My new review of the revised classes! I'm going by class this time, since otherwise it will take me forever to finish these posts.
Spellrager: I would move the spells it gains up 2 levels (to begin at 4th, instead of 2nd) if only because sorcerers don't even begin gaining their bloodline spells until level 3, so it seems a bit inappropriate for the barbarian to gain them earlier. Other than that, you still don't mention which level spells they gain at which level, but I think most people will get the gist anyway.
Spirit Warrior: Well, I love that you injected this thing with its own flavor, rather than just copying and pasting the flavor of the druid. The wild shape power is altogether too powerful, I think, in that it replaces trap sense, an ability by no means on par with wild shape. Also, as written, I think you can already wild shape and rage at the same time, without wild rage. Overall this archetype feels like it's getting the best of both worlds. It's eating its cake.
EDIT: Also, while it's an awesome image, I think that it would be more appropriate to change rage into a Wile Rage ability: granting them powers based on their spirit animal. I'm just thinking, stacking these two abilities...that's a massive boost to the barbarian's most important stats.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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I shall post my Matrix when I get a chance. Here's the Basic rules I followed, and My break down of the Barbarian. Most have worked out to be in the 45-55 point range. So I may make a tier style point buy system, sort of like the Ability point buy system for character creation used in the Core Rulebook.
** spoiler omitted **...
Cool, cool--I see how you're doing it. I'm using a finer break-down of abilities, based on the relative strengths of the abilities, rather than the level at which they're attained.
(here's a link to a screenshot of my tables)
So a fighter bonus feat would be +5; druidic nature sense would be +2; one level of druidic spellcasting would be +7; the barbarian's indomitable will would be +4; etc. The costs of everything except proficiencies are incurred at every level of the class, so you'd be paying +7 for spells alone for every level of druid, then +1 for medium BAB, +1 for medium HD, +1 for 4 skills, etc... on top of whatever class features the druid gets at a particular level.
As I said, the system I'm working with so far has the classes all getting roughly the same average points/level (in the 15-16 range). I'll keep playing with it.
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The danger of reverse-engineering class abilities to create a point-buy system where you pick what you want depending on your character concept is that someday, you'll see a d12 mutagenic rager in heavy armor using a tower shield in one hand, and a falchion doing sneak attacks in the two others. But hey, nothing else beyond that, so, balanced !
I personnaly prefer to see well-crafted new multiclass variants, D&D classes style, instead of a too permissive and complex system of creating your character piece to piece like a classes-of-power.
About the Revised Multiclass Archetypes :
- Spellrager : One thing bugging me with it is the inability to cast her Spellrager bloodline spells while raging. Looks like an iconic ability for such a combination. Maybe with a concentration check ? Also, compatibility with UM would be a nice plus, like "if using the crossblooded archetype, the spellrager gains both arcanas and class skills at level 1, and both bloodline powers at level 3. He chooses each time only one bloodline spell to gain from his two bloodline spell lists at level 2 and every four levels after. Remove 1 use per day for each spell. When this puts the uses per day of a spell to 0, the spellrager gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level."
Overall and excluding the previous comment, seems fine and balanced.
- Spirit Warrior : A bit sad not to find mononoke here and more of a f$$@ing good revamp of the Bear Warrior PrC who was pretty much a raging changeling adopting true bear form in 3.5 (+16 strength is ugly, even with only three natural attacks). While I waited for a real barbarian with a companion animal, I found a morphing savage... and still, this one looks really fine too. Wild rage and Wild shape are maybe coming a bit too late when you think these are major, emblematic class abilities. Maybe remove medium armors and give them at level 2/4 or 4/6 by replacing rage powers instead of 6/8 ? Could also have a "suggested rage powers for this class" part.
- Songfilch : trades skill-related abilities for rogue-ish goodies. I'm having a hard time figuring a stealthy bard, but still, nice class. Minor/Major magic seem atually useless as talents to a bard though.
- Battle adept : Nice one. I could even see armor/weapon training replaced with clas abilities for archetypes fighters. Seems like a good neutral paladin or war cleric.
- Forest Patriarch : Nice one. One thing I'm wondering though, does the ranger spellcasting use your full level ? It would make of the forest patriarch a better ranger at spellcasting, even if actually it makes sense.
- Land Master : Looks more like "forest master", all the while being not so much of a forest master at all. A bit confusing, and the capstone really seems out of place. Not your best take on the concept. Druid/Ranger in itself is a bit redondant IMHO. Getting it better would require to use the skirmisher variant's abilities or even the Kobold Quaterly's spell-less ranger from the beginning (sneak attack on favored terrains), paradoxal for a druid class. Or, focus more on terrain by getting specific bonuses on them. Seems a bit like a failed Horizon Walker.
- Spellarbor : Nice one. Trade some druid goodies for some powers/day.
- Divine blade : Not bad per se, but seems pretty much useless when you already have the paladin or the Battle adept to play. Fighter as a primary class but no training at all seems out of place, like if Divine blade and Battle adept almost should trade their builds.
- Silent Warrior : Really nice. I could see how people would want to play this kind of assassin. Should just have the "rogue talent" class ability to qualify for Extra talent feat.
- Kubodo warrior : A good no-brainer. Is an unarmed strike considered a monk weapon for Weapon training, or does it give them a special extra ? This replaces slow fall, but does it replace only this ability since there are 4 levels ?
- Holy fist : Looks terrifying when stacking flurry of blows with smite evil and divine bond. But hey, it's the class concept, and makes it even more MAD to balance.
- Divine protector : Trading Detect Evil for a domain doesn't feel like paladin to me, and the trade is -really- favoring the DP. Maybe it should only give the first level power from the domain. verall, maybe a little redondant again.
Well, that's it for now. I'll maybe review the second part, but I will have no time for me during some times because of work. Hope the opinion helps.
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One of the experiments I was looking at was the idea of revamping the multiclass system completely like so:
at level 1 you choose your class and get "level 1" of that class.
at level 2 you choose a class you qualify for (no, your barbarian cannot magically become a wizard or centaur) and you get "level 2" of that class.
repeat ad nauseum.
the powergaming potential here is ludicrous, I know, GM involvement would be practically mandatory, and there are all sorts of questions raised about stuff like monk abilities or whether you could prepare a 3rd level spell in a 5th level spell slot without metamagic. (I say no, that adds value to those metamagic feats, especially heighten spell!)
But it makes stuff like this even more interesting. You just have to ask yourself what you really want out of a multiclassing system.
Supposing a 7th level fighter character is blasted by powerful energies when a gate collapses while they're fighting a lich and defeat him. When he levels up, he becomes part sorcerer, and gets a bloodline ability, and some level 4 sorcerer spells - what would his caster level be? (I say it stays as the highest caster level he's taken, so if he alternates: fighter sorc fighter sorc, he sees his cl go from 8 to 8 to 10 to 10 to 12 to 12, etc.)
compare him to a pure sorcerer and you see lots of differences: he doesn't have the lower level spells he's really going to regret not having... his level 4 spells are really going to be awkward all by themselves (but less so than if he had to work with level 1 crap in level 8 combat), he doesn't have all the feats and skills that a caster his level would have - he seems to be MORE like the image of someone who just had power thrust upon them, and was unprepared for it - which is just deliciously ripe for roleplaying possibilities.
I suppose the question I'm getting at is:
Is this really the kind of way you want to "fix" multiclassing? Or are you looking for something that will preserve the appeal of a pure class, and force the player to make difficult decisions about the direction of their character?
... Also, I want that art! Could you post what you searched for to find it?
I went to deviantart.com and searched for pathfinder rpg, as well as by artist name. I originally did a search on the pathfinder rpg blogs for anything about a pathfinder art gallery, and found some threads that directed me to deviantart and what to search for.
Sorry Chris to be revising on you, but here are some new ones. It’s like the playtests, suggestions and revisions are the path to the best results.
I’ve added the following paragraph to the Multiclass Guidelines
Class Archetypes: Multiclass archetypes may be used with the class archetypes presented in the Advance Player’s Guide, Ultimate Magic, and any similar Pathfinder RPG source books, based upon compatibility and GM permission.
I have also made the following changes to the Spellrager and Spirit Warrior.
I took out medium armor in the weapon and armor proficiency entry.
I moved bloodline spells to level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. I also added “The spellrager may cast his bloodline spells while raging if he makes a successful Concentration check.” Before the “This ability replaces rage power at 4th…” Sentence.
Spirit Animal: Moved to 1st level, replaces 1st level rage power.
Wild Shape: Moved to levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, and replaces rage power at those levels.
Wild Rage: moved to 6th level, replaces trap sense +2.
Added following:
Spirit Hybrid (Su): At 12th level, a spirit warrior can take a humanoid hybrid form of his spirit animal whenever he wild shapes. When in this form, the spirit warrior gains the senses, natural armor bonus, speed, natural attacks, and racial skill modifiers of his animal form. This ability replaces trap sense +4.
Dire Form: At 18th level, a spirit warrior can assume the dire form of his spirit animal whenever he wild shapes normally or into his hybrid form. This ability replaces trap sense +6.
Rage Powers: The following rage powers complement the spirit warrior multiclass archetype: animal fury, beast totem*, fearless rage, greater beast totem*, greater spirit totem*, knockback, knockdown*, lesser beast totem*, lesser spirit totem*, low-light vision, night vision, raging climber (ape, bear, serpent), raging leaper (ape, tiger, lion, wolf), raging swimmer (crocodile), scent, spirit totem*, strength surge, and terrifying howl. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Very good. It's similar in concept to mine. The tough thing will be finding the right balance between ease, complexity, and balance within the system. Your system is based upon a level-by-level maximum point assignment, which may be better than mine. Then one can custom make their "class" level by level. Good work.
I think we will be able to collaborate, but with so much info, we'll need to take a step at a time, and try some playtesting. Ultimately, for me, I would want a system that allows me to create the flavor, feeling, and power of my old 2E multiclass characters.
For example, here are three of my favorite 2E characters who have gone through the 3.5E conversion, and pathfinder, but they have lost much of their flavor and essence. I would like that feeling of the old 2E multiclassing where you have LOTS of class options to draw upon, and yet keep the power creep balanced.
1) Human Paladin24/Cleric15/"Dragon Lord10*"
*homebrew Kit/PrC based on the Dragon Lords in Feist's Riftwar series.
2) Derro Wizard17/Rogue15/Alchemist5*
*did my own 2E version for this, so I was glad to see the PF Alchemist appear.
3) Drow Rogue15/Cleric12
Spirit Animal: Moved to 1st level, replaces 1st level rage power.
Wild Shape: Moved to levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, and replaces rage power at those levels.
Wild Rage: moved to 6th level, replaces trap sense +2.
Added following:
Spirit Hybrid (Su): At 12th level, a spirit warrior can take a humanoid hybrid form of his spirit animal whenever he wild shapes. When in this form, the spirit warrior gains the senses, natural armor bonus, speed, natural attacks, and racial skill modifiers of his animal form. This ability replaces trap sense +4.
Dire Form: At 18th level, a spirit warrior can assume the dire form of his spirit animal whenever he wild shapes normally or into his hybrid form. This ability replaces trap sense +6.
Rage Powers: The following rage powers complement the spirit warrior multiclass archetype: animal fury, beast totem*, fearless rage, greater beast totem*, greater spirit totem*, knockback, knockdown*, lesser beast totem*, lesser spirit totem*, low-light vision, night vision, raging climber (ape, bear, serpent), raging leaper (ape, tiger, lion, wolf), raging swimmer (crocodile), scent, spirit totem*, strength surge, and terrifying howl. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Emphasis mine.
This...doesn't really mean anything so far as I know. The spells that Wild Shape emulates give static bonuses. You don't actually use the creature's stat block. And so far as I know, there's no "Dire" template that can just be slapped onto any animal.
Otherwise, I still think that the ability to stack the strength from wild shape and rage is WAY too powerful In the end, it grants you a +14 to strength. That's huge...like, really huge.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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This...doesn't really mean anything so far as I know. The spells that Wild Shape emulates give static bonuses. You don't actually use the creature's stat block. And so far as I know, there's no "Dire" template that can just be slapped onto any animal.
Otherwise, I still think that the ability to stack the strength from wild shape and rage is WAY too powerful In the end, it grants you a +14 to strength. That's huge...like, really huge.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Maybe put -4 to the barbarian level for the purpose of qualifying for rage powers, and give him a progression of only one round of rage/level to compensate ? This takes a good 1/3 of his rounds per day, and tackles his rage power progression.
How about this? Emphasis changes/deletions
Wild Shape (Su): Beginning at 4th level, a spirit warrior gains the druid wild shape class ability once per day. A spirit warrior can only turn himself into a Medium animal of the same type as his animal spirit. This ability functions as beast shape I, but the effect lasts for 1 hour per 2 spirit warrior levels, or until he changes back. At 8th level, a spirit warrior can use this ability twice per day and change into a Large form of his spirit animal. His wild shape now functions as beast shape II. At 12th level, a spirit warrior can use this ability three times per day. At 16th level, a spirit warrior can use this ability four times per day and change into a Huge form of his spirit animal. His wild shape now functions as beast shape III. At 20th level, a spirit warrior can use this ability five times per day removed the celestial/fiend info. This ability replaces rage power at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.
Wild Rage (Ex): At 6th level, a spirit warrior gains the ability to rage and wild shape simultaneously, but sacrifices 1 round of his rage for each round he wild shapes whiled raging. This ability replaces trap sense +2.
Spirit Hybrid (Su): At 12th level, a spirit warrior can take a humanoid hybrid form of his spirit animal whenever he wild shapes. When in this form, the spirit warrior gains the senses, natural armor bonus, speed, natural attacks, and racial skill modifiers of his animal form. This allows the spirit warrior to use ranged or melee weapons in addition to natural attacks during his wild shape. This ability replaces trap sense +4.
Rage Powers: The spirit warrior's level for the purpose of qualifying for rage powers is equal to his spirit warrior level -4. The following rage powers complement the spirit warrior multiclass archetype: animal fury, beast totem*, fearless rage, greater beast totem*, greater spirit totem*, knockback, knockdown*, lesser beast totem*, lesser spirit totem*, low-light vision, night vision, raging climber (ape, bear, serpent), raging leaper (ape, tiger, lion, wolf), raging swimmer (crocodile), scent, spirit totem*, strength surge, and terrifying howl. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
So, in essence, the spirit warrior qualifies for rage powers with level restrictions at a -4 level, he must expend 1 extra rage round per round to maintain rage and wild shape simultaneously, he gains the beast shape III benefits at 16th instead of 12th level, and he can use weapons and natural atacks during his hybrid form. That should balance the penalty/benefit inssue, and move some of the bonuses receive (ei. beast shape III) to a higher level where it will be less overpowered.
As for the dire form, your right, makes no sense. So, I would like some suggestions as to what to replace it with. I was thinking, as a"spirit" warrior, may be he gains the ability to call forth spirit animals of his type (wolf, lion, etc.) 1/day, like the summon nature's ally spellls? They'd be normal animals with their stats, remain for whatever number of rounds, then disappear. At 18th level, they's need to be quality creatures, so maybe a dire form or two of their animal? Ideas? Thoughts? Needs to be someting that fits the flavor.
About the Revised Multiclass Archetypes :- Songfilch : trades skill-related abilities for rogue-ish goodies. I'm having a hard time figuring a stealthy bard, but still, nice class. Minor/Major magic seem atually useless as talents to a bard though.
- Divine blade : Not bad per se, but seems pretty much useless when you already have the paladin or the Battle adept to play. Fighter as a primary class but no training at all seems out of place, like if Divine blade and Battle adept almost should trade their builds.
- Divine protector : Trading Detect Evil for a domain doesn't feel like paladin to me, and the trade is -really- favoring the DP. Maybe it should only give the first level power from the domain. verall, maybe a little redondant again.
Songfilch: I removed the minor/major magic from the list of complimentary talents.
Divine Blade: 2 choices, move the channel energy to 2nd level to replace bravery, or to 3rd level to replace armor training and armor mastery. I thought bravery, but that may be too much power without nerfing another powerful fighter ability, so armor training might be the one to replace. In fact, I think I will go with that. Thoughts? And you're right, the weapon training/mastery should remain since that really is the essence of the fighter class.
Divine Protector: I'll do some thinking on what would be a good change.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I came up with a Witch/Paladin one that I think would be interesting to play. The abilities are based very strongly off the Plaguebringer you posted earlier.
The White Witch combines the most benevolent of the witch’s powers with the divine healing abilities of a Paladin. She uses her hexes to aid her allies in combat while healing them using her Lay on Hands ability.
Primary Class: Witch
Secondary Class: Paladin
Hit Dice: d8
Save Bonus: +2 Fortitude
Alignment Restriction: LG
Bonus skills and ranks: The White Witch may choose three paladin skills to add to her list of class skills.
Weapon and armor proficiency: White Witches are proficient with all simple and one-handed martial weapons, with light armor, but not with shields.
Spellcasting: White Witches may cast spells from both the Witch and Paladin spell lists. They favor healing and buffing spells.
Lay on Hands: Beginning at 2nd level, the White Witch gains the Paladin’s Lay on Hands class ability. Each day she may use this ability ½ her White Witch levels plus her Charisma modifier. With a touch, she can heal (or damage undead) 1d6 points of damage at 2nd level, and an additional 1d6 points at every four levels afterward, to a total of 5d6 at 18th level. Levels in the White Witch and Paladin classes stack when determining the total amount of healing caused by her Lay on Hands ability. Using this ability is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces hex at 2nd level.
Divine Health: At 6th level, a White Witch gains the Divine Health Paladin class ability. This replaces hex at 6th level.
Mercy: Beginning at 10th level, and every four levels afterward, the White Witch may choose a mercy, as the Paladin class ability. Each mercy adds an effect to the White Witch’s Lay on Hands ability, in addition to the healing. If used offensively, the target may make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ the White Witch’s level + the White Witch’s Cha modifier) to negate the effects of the Mercy. At 10th level, the White Witch can choose from the Fatigued, Shaken, or Sickened mercies. At 16th level, the White Witch may also choose from the Dazed, Diseased or Staggered mercies. At 20th level, the white witch may also choose from the Cursed, Exhausted, Frightened, Nauseated or Poisoned mercies.
Patron themes: The following patron themes complement the White Witch archetype: Ancestors, Healing, Light, Moon, Wisdom
Hexes: The following Hexes complement the White Witch archetype: Charm, Flight, Fortune, Healing, Ward
Major Hexes: The following Major Hexes complement the White Witch archetype: Hidden Home, Major Healing, Vision, Weather Control, Witch’s Brew
Grand Hexes: The following Grand Hexes complement the White Witch archetype: Eternal Slumber, Life Giver, Summon Spirit
Special: The White Witch qualifies for the Extra Lay on Hands and Extra Mercy feats
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I came up with a Witch/Paladin one that I think would be interesting to play. The abilities are based very strongly off the Plaguebringer you posted earlier.
** spoiler omitted **...
One more I've been working on: the Mutant Hag, a Witch/Alchemist hybrid who drops her Witch's Familiar to use all her spells as extracts instead. Tell me what you guys think:
A Mutant Hag combines the sorcerous powers of a Witch with the Mutagen of an Alchemist to strengthen her abilities in combat and devastate her foes.
Primary Class: Witch
Secondary Class: Alchemist
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Save Bonus: +2 Reflex
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Mutant Hags gain Craft (alchemy) as a bonus class skill and may select two other Alchemist class skills to add to her list of class skills.
Weapon and Armor proficiency: Mutant Hags are proficient with all simple weapons, no armor, and no shields.
Extracts: At first level, the Mutant Hag must choose Cauldron as her first-level hex. She also gains the Alchemist’s Alchemy class feature. She gains a competence bonus equal to ½ her Mutant Hag level on Craft (alchemy) checks when brewing extracts, mutagens or potions. This does not give the Mutant Hag the ability to create bombs. Instead of being stored by a familiar, the witch’s spells are stored in a book of Formulae as if she were an Alchemist. She can learn new spells from either the Witch or Alchemist spell list, and can learn these formulae by studying the formula book of an Alchemist or the spellbook of a Wizard. When the Mutant Hag creates an extract, it is treated in every way like the extract of an Alchemist. A Mutant Hag begins play with all witch Cantrips and two 1st-level formulae written in her formula book, plus a number of additional formulae equal to her Int modifier. The formulae may be chosen from either the Witch or Alchemist spell lists. At each new level, she adds two formulae of any level that she can use to her book. At 5th level, she gains the Alchemist’s Swift Alchemy class feature. This replaces the Witch’s Familiar class feature.
Infuse Mutagen: At 6th level, the witch gains the Alchemist’s Infuse Mutagen class ability. This replaces hex at 6th level.
Feral Mutagen: At 10th level, a mutagenic brute gains the feral mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces hex at 10th level.
Greater Mutagen: At 14th level, a mutagenic brute gains the greater mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces hex at 14th level.
Grand Mutagen: At 18th level, a mutagenic brute gains the grand mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces hex at 18th level.
Hex: The following hexes complement the Mutant Hag archetype: Disguise, Flight, Feral Speech*, Prehensile Hair*, Unnerve Beasts*, Water Lung*
Major Hex: The following major hexes complement the Mutant Hag archetype: Retribution, Beast Eye*, Infected Wounds*, Witch’s Brew*
Grand Hex: The following grand hex complements the Mutant Hag archetype: Death Curse
*Denotes a hex listed in Ultimate Magic
Special: The Mutant Hag qualifies for the Extra Discovery feat, but can only choose Alchemist Discoveries that pertain to Extracts or Mutagens. She is treated as having an Alchemist level equal to ½ her Mutant Hag level for level-dependent requirements.
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Divine Blade: 2 choices, move the channel energy to 2nd level to replace bravery, or to 3rd level to replace armor training and armor mastery. I thought bravery, but that may be too much power without nerfing another powerful fighter ability, so armor training might be the one to replace. In fact, I think I will go with that. Thoughts? And you're right, the weapon training/mastery should remain since that really is the essence of the fighter class.
Divine Protector: I'll do some thinking on what would be a good change.
Channeling instead of bravery is a bit too good of a trade, which I would see as balanced only if the uses/day were ridiculous or with a low progression ; or even by a mix of the two : low progression and low uses/day.
The divine protector itself is maybe not needed with the recent PrCs and feats. IMHO, this isn't the kind of concept that isn't doable at all by simply going full paladin or cleric before going into a PrC.About the Spirit Warrior's "Wild rage", here is a little more needed clarification => "while wild shaped, each round of rage consumes one additional round of rage ; so that while a barbarian only consumes one round of rage per round of fight, a spirit warrior consumes two rounds of rage per round when she is also wildshaped".
Wild Rage (Ex): At 6th level, a spirit warrior gains the ability to rage and wild shape simultaneously. While the spirit warrior is wild shaped, each round of rage consumes one additional round of rage. Thus, while a barbarian only consumes one round of rage per round of fight, a spirit warrior consumes two rounds of rage per round when he is also wild shaped. This ability replaces trap sense +2.
As for the Divine Blade, I've replaced the armor training and armor mastery with channel energy.
I see what you're saying for divine protector. We may not need it at all, since the two are so similar already. Although, I still loved multiclassing them in 2E.
I've also decided to replace Dire Form for Spirit Warrior with this:
Dire Spirits: At 18th level, a spirit warrior can summon a number of dire or giant creatures of his spirit animal type 1/day. This functions as a summon nature’s ally of the appropriate level, and summons the following number of creatures as based upon the spirit warrior’s spirit animal: 2 dire apes, 1 dire bear, 2 dire boars, 1 dire crocodile, 2 giant eagles, 1 dire lion, 1 giant anaconda*, 1 dire tiger, or 2 dire wolves. This ability replaces trap sense +6. (*Bestiary 2)
StuffI love these archetypes as I feel like they work so much better. I use Hero Lab and was wondering if you had an issue with me creating these in Hero Lab? I would love to use them in my next game.
Go ahead. just know that there will be some revamping and tweaking going on with them here in this thread.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'll take a look at the white witch and mutant hag and get back to you. I do like the witch/paladin concept. It's different.
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Lots of goodies
I like these, but...
- White witch seems nice. Can she use Lay of hands to heal herself as a swift action like a paladin ? IMHO, she gains some effects a bit too good for the hexes she gives up. A bit less uses of Lay of hand could be fine. Also, she should be forbidden to use any spell with the Poison, Pain, Evil or Disease attribute.
- Mutagenic hag lets me a bit circonspect. The mutagenic witch gains some cool powers that shouldn't be gamebreaking considering the d6 HD, but this would also allow her to gain a lot of free dexterity or constitution, trading only the familiar for this. And I'm not counting if someone puts in it the mindchemist variant for a free +4 Intelligence.
Also, she seems to prepare all spells as extracts. This point isn't clear, and would mean she loses spells that target the ennemies, letting her with only self buffing. I guess you meant the class to be pretty much an "alchemical horror" giving bad luck and using weird attacks to eliminate it's ennemies, if this is the case it is pretty nice.
Lots of goodiesI like these, but...
Here's a few of my new APG multiclass archetypes, and a few changes I made on the White Witch. I did my own version of the Witch/Alchemist combo - the Witch Doctor (I don't think that names taken is it?).
I'm wondering if cartmanbeck's Witch/Alchemist shouldn't be an Alchemist/Witch, an alchemist with hexes to access instead of the other way around? Maybe call it an Abomination Hag or Hag of Horror? I need to take a better look at it.
Anyways, here they are.
Eldritch warlocks combine the innate bloodline powers of a sorcerer with the eldritch magic and spells of a witch. She can use hexes, cast spells, gains bloodline powers, and can unleash rays of eldritch of energy at her enemies.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Sorcerer.
Hit Dice: d6.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Eldritch warlocks may select three sorcerer skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal witch class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Eldritch warlocks gain no more proficiency with weapons or armor.
Eldritch Ray (Sp): Whenever an eldritch warlock casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the witch’s spell list or her bloodline spells, she can spontaneously change the spell into a ray of eldritch energy. By making a ranged touch attack, the eldritch warlock deals 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell. An eldritch ray has a caster level equal to the blooded warlock’s level. Any creature struck by an eldritch strike can make a Reflex save (DC 10 + the eldritch warlock’s level + the eldritch warlock’s Charisma modifer) for 1/2 damage. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability replaces witch’s familiar.
Sorcerer Bloodline: Eldritch warlocks gain the sorcerer bloodline class ability, and may only choose from the following bloodlines: arcane, abyssal, celestial, destined, elemental, fey, protean*, shadow*, or starsoul*. (*Advance Players Guide)
At 1st level, an eldritch warlock adds the skill listed in her bloodline to her class skills and gains her bloodline arcana.
Beginning at 2nd level, an eldritch warlock gains her first bloodline power, and any subsequent bloodline powers every six levels thereafter to a maximum of her fourth bloodline power at 20th level. This ability replaces hex at 2nd, 8th, 14th, and 20th level.
At 4th level, an eldritch warlock gains her first bloodline spell and adds it to her witch spell list. She also gains any subsequent bloodline spells every two levels thereafter and adds these to her spell list. The eldritch warlock cannot exceed her daily allotment of spells as given on Table 2–10 of the Advanced Player’s Guide.
Special: The eldritch warlock qualifies for the Extra Hex feat.
White witches combine the most benevolent of the witch’s powers with the divine healing abilities of a paladin. She uses her hexes to aid her allies in combat while healing them using lay on hands.
Primary Class: Witch
Secondary Class: Paladin
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Dice: d8
Save Bonus: +2 Fortitude
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The white witch may choose three paladin skills to add to her list of class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: White witches are proficient with all simple and one-handed martial weapons, with light armor, but not with shields.
Spellcasting: White witches cast spells from both the witch and paladin spell lists. They cast spells at a caster level equal to their white witch level and favor healing and augmentation spells. She is restricted from casting any spells associated with disease, death, evil, pain, or poison.
Code of Conduct: A white witch must adhere to the guidelines presented in the paladin’s code of conduct.
Light Armor (Ex): A white witch can cast her spells without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance only if she is wearing light or no armor. A white witch wearing medium armor, heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
Lay on Hands: Beginning at 2nd level, a white witch gains the paladin lay on hands class ability. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. As a touch attack, a white witch can heal (or damage undead) 1d6 points of damage for every four white witch levels she possesses, to a total of 5d6 damage at 18th level. Using this ability is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces hex at 2nd level.
Divine Health: At 6th level, a white witch gains the paladin divine health class ability. This replaces hex at 6th level.
Mercy: Beginning at 10th level, and every four levels afterward, the white witch may choose a mercy, as the paladin class ability. Each mercy adds an effect to the white witch’s lay on hands ability, in addition to the healing. If used offensively, the target may make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the white witch’s level + the white witch’s Charisma modifier) to negate the effects of the mercy. At 10th level, the white witch can choose from the fatigued, shaken, or sickened mercies. At 16th level, the white witch may also choose from the dazed, diseased or staggered mercies. At 20th level, the white witch may also choose from the cursed, exhausted, frightened, nauseated or poisoned mercies. This ability replaces hex at 10th, 16th and 20th level.
Patron Themes: The following patron themes complement the white witch archetype: ancestors*, healing*, light*, moon*, strength, wisdom. (*Ultimate Magic)
Hexes: The following hexes complement the white witch archetype: charm, flight, fortune, healing, ward.
Major Hexes: The following major hexes complement the white witch archetype: hidden home*, major healing, vision, weather control, witch’s brew*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Grand Hexes: The following grand hexes complement the white witch archetype: eternal slumber, life giver, summon spirit*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Special: The white witch qualifies for the Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Mercy, and Extra Hex feats, but is treated as having a paladin level equal to 1/2 his white witch level for level-dependent requirements.
Witch doctors unite the alchemical brewing skills of an alchemist with the magic of a witch. She can invoke hexes, cast witch spells, and brew extracts and mutagens.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Alchemist.
Hit Dice: d6.
Save Bonus: +2 Reflex.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Witch doctors may select three alchemist skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal witch class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Witch doctors gains no more proficient with weapons, armor, or shields.
Spellcasting: Witch doctors cast spells from both the witch spell list and alchemist’s formulae lists, and adds the witch spells from her list to the list of formulae she can use to create extracts. They cast spells at a caster level equal to their witch doctor level.
Alchemy (Su): Beginning at 1st level, a witch doctor gains the alchemist’s alchemy class ability, allowing her to create mundane alchemy items and extracts from the spells in her spell list, but not bombs or mutagens. She gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 her witch doctor level on Craft (alchemy) checks when crafting these items. This ability replaces witch’s familiar.
Brew Potion: At 1st level, a witch doctor gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat, and is limited to 3rd level spells.
Discovery (Su): At 4th level, and every six levels thereafter, a witch doctor gains the benefits of the alchemist discovery class ability, and may select only discoveries that pertain to extracts. At 8th level, the witch doctor may also select discoveries that pertain to mutagens. A witch doctor counts 1/2 her total witch doctor level as her alchemist level for the purpose of qualifying for alchemist discoveries. This ability replaces hex at 2nd, 10th, and 16th level.
Mutagen: At 7th level, a witch doctor adds mutagens to the list of alchemy items she can create, and may select discoveries pertaining to mutagens.
Swift Alchemy (Ex): At 11th level, a witch doctor gains the alchemist swift alchemy class ability.
Patron Themes: The following patron themes complement the witch doctor archetype: ancestors*, animal, death*, elemental, healing*, light*, occult*, portents*, spirits*, stars*, wisdom. (*Ultimate Magic)
Hexes: The following hexes complement the witch doctor archetype: beast of ill-omen*, blight, charm, feral speech*, fortune, healing, scar*, slumber, tongues, ward. (*Ultimate Magic)
Major Hexes: The following major hexes complement the witch doctor archetype: hoarfrost*, ice tomb*, major healing, retribution, speak in dreams*, vision. (*Ultimate Magic)
Grand Hexes: The following grand hexes complement the witch doctor archetype: death curse, forced reincarnation, life giver, summon spirit*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Discoveries: The following discoveries compliment the witch doctor multiclass archetype: bottled ooze*, cognatogen*, combine extracts, dilution, healing touch*, infusion, lingering spirit*, spontaneous healing*, and wings*. (*Ultimate Magic)
Special: The witch doctor qualifies for the Extra Hex and Extra Discovery feats, but is treated as having an alchemist level equal to 1/2 his witch doctor level for level-dependent requirements.
I also replaced the Divine Protector in my first set of archetypes with the following:
Radiant heralds unite the divine investiture of a paladin with the performance and augmentation abilities of a bard. He can smite his enemies, heal others, and sing hymns in praise to his deity to enhance the prowess of his allies in battle.
Primary Class: Paladin.
Secondary Class: Bard.
Alignment: Lawful good.
Hit Dice: d10.
Save Bonus: +2 Reflex.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Radiant heralds may select three bard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal paladin class skills. The radiant herald gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 4 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Radiant heralds are proficient with all simpleand martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except for tower).
Spells: A radiant herald casts divine spells which are drawn from the bard and paladin spell lists presented in Chapter 10 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Alignment restrictions still apply. He can prepare bard or paladin spells but cannot exceed his base daily spell allotment as given on Table 3–11 of the Paladin class entry. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.
Radiant Voice: A radiant herald gains the bard’s bardic knowledge, bardic performance, and countersong class abilities. These abilities replace smite evil 1/day.
Inspire Courage (Su): A radiant herald gains the bard inspire courage class ability. This ability replaces smite evil at 1st, 7th, 13th, and 19th level.
Inspire Competence (Su): At 3rd level, a radiant herald gains the bard inspire competence class ability. This ability replaces smite evil at 4th, 10th, and 16th level.
Inspire Greatness (Su): At 11th level, a radiant herald gains the bard inspire greatness class ability. This ability replaces aura of justice.
Inspire Heroics (Su): At 17th level, a radiant herald gains the bard inspire
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a radiant herald gains DR 5/evil upon becoming a holy champion instead of the normal DR 10/evil.
Special: The radiant herald qualifies for the Extra Channeling, Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Mercy and Extra Performance feats, but is treated as having a bard level equal to 1/2 his radiant herald level for level-dependent requirements, as above.
Really loving what I'm seeing, and it's given me an idea. Prestige Archetypes.
Your first thought might be "Archetypes for Prestige Classes," but that would be incorrect. If you're thinking like me, then your thought will be "Prestige classes as archetypes."
It's something I'm rolling around in my head. The only problem is that the beauty behind prestige classes is that most anyone can take them if they meet the pre-requisites. Archetypes are each for one specific class.
Anyway, it's an idea. If I come up with something more solid, I'll post it (but I won't derail this thread, I'll just give a link to its own thread).
Thoughts?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
...Stuff...
Now the question is, are you taking about making Prestige Archetypes that are combined with a core/base class?
Just as I combine the barbarian/sorcerer to make a "spellrager", are you suggesting combining paladin/holy vindicator to make the "Holy Vindicator" prestige archetype? Something like this?
1st Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day
2nd Divine grace, lay on hands
3rd Aura of courage, divine health, mercy
4th Channel positive energy, smite evil 2/day
5th Vindicator’s shield
6th Stigmata
7th Faith healing (empower)
8th Divine wrath
9th Mercy
10th Smite evil 3/day
11th Aura of justice
12th Bloodfire, channel smite
13th Versatile channel
14th Divine judgment
15th Mercy
16th Smite evil 4/day
17th Faith healing (maximize)
18th Blood drain
19th Smite evil 5/day
20th Divine retribution
Now doing this, we’d have to decide what core/base class to attach each prestige class to for those that have requirements from 2 classes. I suppose to deal with that, there would simply be 2 archetypes of that prestige, such as a rage prophet (barbarian and oracle). Such as this:
Rage Prophet (Barbarian)
Rage Prophet (Oracle)
Each would be built on either the barbarian or oracle chassis, and would have a slightly different flavor, and class ability set.
I think this could actually work well. They would simply become variant versions of a base/core class. Good idea Chris…
Now we have lost more archetypes to work on :)
So, I've gone through the Core and APG PrC's, and figured out what classes to chassis the Prc's.
Core
Arcane archer (ranger with arcane access)
Arcane trickster (rogue with minor, major, greater magic talents)
Assassin (rogue)
Dragon disciple (sorcerer with draconic bloodline)
Duelist (fighter with extra skills and ranks)
Eldritch knight (fighter/sorcerer or wizard)
Lore master (wizard or sorcerer)
Mystic theurge (cleric/wizard, +1 level divine or arcane on odd levels, +1 level divine and arcane on even levels)
Pathfinder chronicler (bard)
Shadow dancer (rogue)
APG
Battle herald (cavalier and bard)
Holy vindicator (paladin)
Horizon walker (ranger and barbarian)
Master chymist (alchemist)
Master spy (rogue)
Nature warden (ranger and druid)
Rage prophet (barbarian/oracle)
Stalwart defender (fighter)
Now, are these the only ones we want to look at, or do want to include none/some/all of the folloing other Paizo Prc's? If so, I'll look into those and determine their class chassis too. Not sure what books or Paths they're from specifically, but they are all on the Pathfinder SRD site.
Agent of the Grave
Balanced Scale of Abadar
Bloatmage
Brightness Seeker
Chevalier
Daivrat
Diabolist
Harrower
Hellknight
Inheritor's Crusader
Lion Blade
Low Templar
Pain Taster
Pathfinder Delver
Pathfinder Savant
Red Mantis Assassin
Shackles Pirate
Spherewalker
Student of War
A question just came to mind as I was looking over the Revised PDF: How does this system handle Favored Classes?
Do you pick a regular class and then get only a certain number of bonuses for it, or do you pick a favored Archetype and treat *that* as your favored class?
(For simplicity's sakes, I'd suggest the latter; I'm not certain it breaks the system, although for anyone worried about *balance*, the first would be a nice trade-off.)
Favored Class
Each character begins play with a single favored class of
his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one
he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level
in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1
skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed
once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a
hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level
(including his first level) cannot be changed once made
for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter
11) can never be a favored class.
So, I would say the archetype itself becomes a favored class, because the point behind the multiclass archetypes is to provide a single class with a multiclass feel.
Now, also with the above rule, if a player takes a level in a particular single core or base class, he can take an archetype with that class as the primary can continue to gain the favored class benefits. Although, with the multiclass archetypes, I don't know why anyone would choose to do that.
On the other hand, for your first suggestion, and to me its just as simple, the primary class of the archetype becomes the favored class, and the player receives the favored class benefits every odd level.
I think the two options should be left available, and let GMs make the final decision in their games. I think I'll add this to my guidelines.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Lots of goodiesI like these, but...Here's a few of my new APG multiclass archetypes, and a few changes I made on the White Witch. I did my own version of the Witch/Alchemist combo - the Witch Doctor (I don't think that names taken is it?).
I'm wondering if cartmanbeck's Witch/Alchemist shouldn't be an Alchemist/Witch, an alchemist with hexes to access instead of the other way around? Maybe call it an Abomination Hag or Hag of Horror? I need to take a better look at it.
Anyways, here they are.
** spoiler omitted **...
One little trouble with the Witch Doctor... the Witch's spells are "stored in her familiar" and so you need to do some fluff-changing to make her be able to cast Witch spells without her familiar. You could just say that she uses some type of alchemical item to store her spells instead or something, but that's why I had changed all of her spellcasting to alchemical, and she could still target other characters with her hexes.
Well, that is a problem. I shall think on that.
OK, what about this? I made a bit of a change to the spellcasting entry, and made the talisman entry.
Spellcasting: Witch doctors cast spells from both the witch spell list and alchemist’s formulae lists, and adds the witch spells from her list to the list of formulae she can use to create extracts. They cast spells at a caster level equal to their witch doctor level. Like other witches, a witch doctor may know any number of spells, but she must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour in a meditative trance while in contact with her talisman (see below). While in this meditative trance, she decides which spells to prepare.
Talisman (Sp): At 1st level, a witch doctor forms a powerful bond with a magical talisman, instead of a familiar. A talisman is a small bundle that contains small objects said to possess particularly potent ties to otherworldly spirits. It is then worn around the neck or at the waist, functioning as a receptacle for her spells in much the same way as a witch’s familiar, but lacking any additional enchantments. A talisman is considered a masterwork item, and only functions for the witch doctor who owns it, while she remains alive. However, if a talisman’s owner dies, the spells stored within may be learned by another witch doctor, much in the same manner a wizard learns a new spell to add to his spellbook. At any time, a witch doctor can add spells found in another witch doctor’s talisman or spells learned from another source to her talisman.
If a talisman is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the witch doctor prepares her spells. If the talisman is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per witch doctor level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
Looking at this.... I just love this idea. Seriously, it's almost painful to me, since I know my DM isn't a huge fan of homebrew things. The Spellrager immediately made me very, very happy. Keep up the good work Lightbringer. I like your Gunslinger, even though I had to adjust a bit to keep it from getting op. (Marksman with a musket ended up getting 3 shots worth of damage every round with Dead Shot by level 4, which was ridiculous. To fix I dropped the line along the lines of "if using a musket you gain another attack roll at your highest attack bonus.")
Anyway, nitpick aside, love this idea. Keep it going.
I really like the idea of Multi-classing like this but I think the balance needs to be looked at a bit..
Things like Bravery would equate more to Trap Sense.. and Weapon/Armor Training would be more along the lines of Sneak Attack..
The Bonus Fighter Feats I'd see more for the Rogue Talents.. etc.
They're not really too compatible otherwise, as technically a Fighter would have a huge advantage with their feats if they could pick up a couple dice of sneak attack just by using a feat. In the same right, an Advanced Rogue Talent can select a feat in place of it, but a Talent cannot.
You also have the issue of things like Monk cherry picking other class functions.. you have good saves all around, can keep your Monk AC and Damage Bonus but swap out your Stunning Fist feature for Canny Defense of Duelist.. or possibly for all the bonus feats a fighter gets..
Just things to point out that can be a bit more unbalanced.
I will say however, I in no way feel that +1 of Bravery equates to 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage. It just does not compare in the slightest. When Multi-classing in this manner you also want to prevent certain things from getting picked up to full progression. I would prevent anyone from getting over 5d6 Sneak Attack without dabbling in Rogue.. at the same time I'd prevent people from getting Improved Evasion without picking up a class who got it.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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OK, what about this? I made a bit of a change to the spellcasting entry, and made the talisman entry.
Spellcasting: Witch doctors cast spells from both the witch spell list and alchemist’s formulae lists, and adds the witch spells from her list to the list of formulae she can use to create extracts. They cast spells at a caster level equal to their witch doctor level. Like other witches, a witch doctor may know any number of spells, but she must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour in a meditative trance while in contact with her talisman (see below). While in this meditative trance, she decides which spells to prepare.
Talisman (Sp): At 1st level, a witch doctor forms a powerful bond with a magical talisman, instead of a familiar. A talisman is a small bundle that contains small objects said to possess particularly potent ties to otherworldly spirits. It is then worn around the neck or at the waist, functioning as a receptacle for her spells in much the same way as a witch’s familiar, but lacking any additional enchantments. A talisman is considered a masterwork item, and only functions for the witch doctor who owns it, while she remains alive. However, if a talisman’s owner dies, the spells stored within may be learned by another witch doctor, much in the same manner a wizard learns a new spell to add to his spellbook. At any time, a witch doctor can add spells found in another witch doctor’s talisman or spells learned from another source to her talisman.
If a talisman is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the witch doctor prepares her spells. If the talisman is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per witch doctor level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
Sounds great, this makes the Witch Doctor much better fluff-wise lol.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I really like the idea of Multi-classing like this but I think the balance needs to be looked at a bit..
Things like Bravery would equate more to Trap Sense.. and Weapon/Armor Training would be more along the lines of Sneak Attack..
The Bonus Fighter Feats I'd see more for the Rogue Talents.. etc.
They're not really too compatible otherwise, as technically a Fighter would have a huge advantage with their feats if they could pick up a couple dice of sneak attack just by using a feat. In the same right, an Advanced Rogue Talent can select a feat in place of it, but a Talent cannot.
You also have the issue of things like Monk cherry picking other class functions.. you have good saves all around, can keep your Monk AC and Damage Bonus but swap out your Stunning Fist feature for Canny Defense of Duelist.. or possibly for all the bonus feats a fighter gets..
Just things to point out that can be a bit more unbalanced.
I will say however, I in no way feel that +1 of Bravery equates to 1d6 of Sneak Attack damage. It just does not compare in the slightest. When Multi-classing in this manner you also want to prevent certain things from getting picked up to full progression. I would prevent anyone from getting over 5d6 Sneak Attack without dabbling in Rogue.. at the same time I'd prevent people from getting Improved Evasion without picking up a class who got it.
Yeah I think I agree with what Gloom said. Improved evasion should not be available to anyone without actual Rogue levels. Feats traded for sneak dice, I'm okay with, but I agree that none of these classes should be able to get sneak damage or bomb damage or anything like that above 5d6 if it's from their secondary class. I look at +1d6 sneak as the equivalent of a combat feat, honestly.
In view of Gloom's comment on balance and swapping appropriate features, I've taken a look at my core multiclass archetypes pdf, and have again made some changes, and have also included a 1-20 level table with BAB, saves, special abilities,and spell advancement fro each one. That way, one can actually see what has been swapped and where new features are gained. Doing this has also helped me to see inconsistencies and the need to fix inappropriate ability swaps, as mentioned by gloom. So, I hope to post the "updated updated" version of the pdf. and yes, I know...but thats how it goes, just like it did with the PF playtests.
Perhas I'll post the changes and see what people think.
Please do. I really like the direction so far.
Please do. I really like the direction so far.
With the changes, I've decided to post the revised 2.0 version as a pdf. Too many to post separately. Just compare to the previous version. I hope this will be my last update for this set, and I can work on the APGs, and after that, the Prc Archetypes.
Pathfinder Multiclass Revised v.2.0.
EDIT: Grrr I hate finding Errata...
Delete: "A stealth mage’s caster level is equal to her stealth level –3 for any divine spells she casts. This ability replaces rogue talent at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level." under the Spells entry. I'm not rebookmarking and reposting just for that.
Enjoy.
Wow! I think some people out there must have my mediafire download addresss set to alert them when new stuff is posted. Only a few minutes after I posted the above and there are already 3 downloads. Interesting.
On another note, here's a Prestige Class Archetype sample.
Holy Vindicator
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day — — — —
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Divine grace, lay on hands — — — —
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Aura of courage, divine health, mercy — — — —
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Channel positive energy, smite evil 2/day 0 — — —
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Vindicator’s shield 1 — — —
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Stigmata 1 — — —
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Faith healing (empower) 1 0 — —
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Divine wrath 1 1 — —
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Mercy 2 1 — —
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Smite evil 4/day 2 1 0 —
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Bloodfire, channel smite 2 1 1 —
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 divine judgment 2 2 1 —
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Versatile smitevil 5/day 3 2 1 0
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Divine judgment 3 2 1 1
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Mercy 3 2 2 1
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Smite evil 6/day 3 3 2 1
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Aura of righteousness 4 3 2 1
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Mercy 4 3 2 2
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Smite evil 7/day 4 3 3 2
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Holy champion 4 4 3 3
Again, to any techs, I really hate not having my column formating transfer from MS Word.
Time to clean the house.
Here's the the Assassin prestige archetypes entry I've written up.
ASSASSIN
A mercenary undertaking his task with cold, professional detachment, the assassin is equally adept at espionage, bounty hunting, and terrorism. At his core, an assassin is an artisan, and his medium is death. Trained in a variety of killing techniques, assassins are among the most feared classes.
While nearly any class is capable of becoming an assassin, rogues suit the part more than any other, from both an ability viewpoint and an ideological one. Though they make excellent allies during combat, assassins excel in more clandestine situations, and the best assassins are the ones the victims never knew existed.
Role: Assassins tend to be loners by nature, seeing companions as liabilities at best. Sometimes an assassin's missions put him in the company of adventurers for long stretches at a time, but few people are comfortable trusting a professional assassin to watch their backs in a fight, and are more likely to let the emotionless killer scout ahead or help prepare ambushes.
Alignment: Due to its necessary selfishness and callous indifference toward taking lives, the assassin class attracts those with evil alignments more than any others. Because the profession requires a degree of self-discipline, chaotic characters are ill suited to becoming these shadowy killers. Neutral characters sometimes become assassins, frequently thinking of themselves as simple professionals performing a job, yet the nature of their duties inevitably pushes them toward an evil alignment.
Skills: Assassins are adept at both disguising themselves and remaining unseen as they ply their profession. Therefore, any character that takes an assassin prestige archetype must put at least 1 rank in Disguise for the first two levels and Stealth for the first five levels of the archetype.
Special: An assassin is above all, a professional killer. Therefore, any character taking one of the assassin prestige archetypes must kill someone for no other reason than to enter an established guild of assassins prior to obtaining 3rd level of their chosen archetype.
Assassin Archetypes: The following archetypes provide two similar paths, but each with a different focus: the true assassin who focuses on stealth and skill to kill and vanish without consequence, while the warrior assassin focuses more on weapon technique and combat skill to bring death to those he is contracted to kill.
The true assassin is the consummate professional, combining the supreme agility, stealth, and unparalleled legerdemain of a rogue with the legendary reputation and deadly skills of an assassin.
Primary Class: Rogue.
Prestige Class: Assassin.
Alignment: Any evil.
Hit Dice: d8.
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 8 + Int
Class Skills: The true assassin’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: True assassins are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Table 1–4: True Assassin
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Sneak attack +1d6, trap finding
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion, poison use, rogue talent
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, death attack
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Uncanny dodge, +1 save against poison
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +3d6
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Hidden weapons, true death, +2 save against poison
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +4d6
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak attack +5d6
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Advanced talents, quiet death, +3 save against poison
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Sneak attack +6d6
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Rogue talent
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +7d6
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Hide in plain sight, +4 save against poison
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Sneak attack +8d6
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Rogue talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak attack +9d6
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Swift death, +5 save against poison
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +10d6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Angel of death, rogue talent
The warrior assassin combines the weapon prowess and combat diversity of a fighter with the stealth and deadly attacks of an assassin.
Primary Class: Fighter.
Prestige Class: Assassin.
Alignment: Any evil.
Hit Dice: d10.
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 4 + Int
Class Skills: The warrior assassin’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Master assassins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus the hand crossbow. They are proficient with light armor, medium armor, but not with shields.
Table 1–5: Warrior Assassin
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus feat
2nd +2 +3 +2 +0 poison use, +1 save bonus against poison
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Sneak attack +1d6, poison use
4th +4 +4 +3 +1 Death attack, uncanny dodge
5th +5 +4 +3 +1 Weapon training 1
6th +6/+1 +5 +4 +2 Bonus feat, +2 save bonus against poison
7th +7/+2 +5 +4 +2 Sneak attack +2d6
8th +8/+3 +6 +4 +2 Hidden weapons, true death
9th +9/+4 +6 +5 +3 Improved uncanny dodge
10th +10/+5 +7 +5 +3 Bonus feat, +3 save bonus against poison
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +5 +3 Sneak attack +3d6
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +6 +4 Quiet death
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +6 +4 Weapon training 2
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +6 +4 Bonus feat, +4 save bonus against poison
15th +15/+10/+15 +9 +7 +5 Sneak attack +4d6
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +7 +5 Hide in plain sight
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +7 +5 Swift death
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +8 +6 Bonus feat, +5 save bonus against poison
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +8 +6 Sneak attack +5d6
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +8 +6 Angel of death, weapon training 3
Liking the ideas for the prestige archetypes. I'll give a full review on them later.
As for the revised v2.0...
Damn you in using more sexy art! I seriously looked all over Deviantart, searching all sorts of artists, and while I found a LOT of very nice character art, I could only find maybe 10% of the art you used. It's just fantastic. Where did you get it? Can you give me some artist names?
Sorry for nagging this point, but I am just having such a hard time finding these pictures.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I don't remember the artists. I did a forum search for "PAthfinder or paizo art gallery" and looked through the different threads. It was one of those that mentioned Deviant Art, and some of the artists. One way to find artists would be to look at the Credits section of the various Core books, adventure paths, etc.
I also do google searches like "pathfinder druid, pathfinder magus," etc. I also copy/paste pics from the various books into my Photoshop programs and remove the bits and pieces that need to be deleted.
I really think Paizo needs to build a picture gallery like WOTC does/did for 3.5. It'd be so much easier to find the pics, and I don't think it'd be that hard to do. Also, they do have some pics on www.pathfindersrd.com.
Sorry, that's all I've got.
EDIT: Try This Thread and This One
Here's a preview of the upcoming Multiclass Archetypes 2 (APG) pdf.
Preview Multiclass Archetypes 2
Wrong file link there, Elghinn. I was able to find the file in your mediafire folder, though, and it's here: http://www.mediafire.com/?6di3xhpkvejsjtu
That said, nice PDF as always. Some of the combinations are a bit underwhelming, though. Arcane Fist is a nice idea but I think the execution seems ridiculously weak in the end. More when I'm less tired.
Wrong file link there, Elghinn. I was able to find the file in your mediafire folder, though, and it's here: http://www.mediafire.com/?6di3xhpkvejsjtu
That said, nice PDF as always. Some of the combinations are a bit underwhelming, though. Arcane Fist is a nice idea but I think the execution seems ridiculously weak in the end. More when I'm less tired.
And that's why I've posted the preview, to get some feed back and suggestions for fixes.
Okay feedback tiem :)
Mutagenic Brute
Good idea, and decently strong.
I don't think it needs alchemy or swift alchemy, though. Those are from the more 'bookish' side of the alchemist, and rely on Intelligence. I think uncanny dodge is more thematic, so replacing it with "I'm good at sitting in a dark room and making sunrods" sounds a bit odd to me.
For infuse mutagen, feral mutagen, greater mutagen, and grand mutagen, instead of automatically replacing rage powers I think I would make these work like hexes for the hexcrafter magus. Maybe something like, "Starting at 6th level, a mutagenic brute can select any discovery pertaining to mutagens for which he qualifies (using his mutagenic brute level as his alchemist level) in place of a rage power." (This is actually something I would suggest for pretty much all these archetypes which blend options from multiple classes.)
Poison resistance should be +1 at 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, just so you're getting _something_ at every level.
Finally,you've got some old copy in your description ("She uses her bloodline powers and spells to enhance her inner fury and prowess in battle.") and your character growth table still refers to trap sense.
Blackguard
Straightforward and sensical, though I wonder if it might be more flavorful to replace smite good progression with sneak attack and channel energy with talented exploits, leaving cruelties alone—and giving you option to create a new class feature which adds cruelties to sneak attack? Sounds delicious to me!
Bloodfiend
Cool.
Bone Knight
Okay, this is amazing. I love it. Several of your multiclass archetypes thus far have felt kinda just like "what would happen if we put these two classes in a blender." This one feels like you had a strongly flavorful goal and you reached it in style. I'm kind of sad that it's constrained to light armor, though.
Knight Errant
Inspire Competence is not worth 3 challenges. I see he gets versatile performance for free, which kind of compensates for that. I'm not sure of the end balance there. Hmm... I feel like the bard stuff should replace the tactician stuff more than the challenge stuff? But I'm not entirely sure on the flavor you're going for.
Arcane Fist
Spell combat is not compatible with flurry of blows, so the age-old dilemma of the monk (move or fight) just got worse (he now has two attractive full-round actions).
Arcane pool, magus spells, the monk's armor bonus, and the monk's ability to qualify for martial arts feats (like stunning fist and its dependents) should all be dependent on the same ability score. The monk and magus are both considered "MAD" already; the archetype as written needs lots of every stat except charisma.
Improved spell combat and greater spell combat are in no way nearly as 'good' as abundant step and empty body. It's a really bad trade-off.
Basically: the arcane fist is weak. I don't have any immediate suggestions to buff him up, but he's weak. Oh, and should he have a stipulation that he qualifies for the extra arcane pool feat?
Eldritch Warlock
Nice, but how does he learn/prepare spells without a familiar? Also, you're making MAD by having bloodline & spells use different ability scores. :(
Plague Bringer
Why only one-handed martial weapons? Light martial weapons makes sense to me. Other than that, I dig.
White Witch
See above.
Witch Doctor
Cooooool, though maybe give the option to gain cognatogens instead of mutagens. And, as with my criticism of the mutagenic brute, give the player the option to take a discovery in place of a hex. I don't see any point in forcing half the player's hexes, at specific levels, to be discoveries.
Hope this was helpful!