| 22 people marked this as a favorite. |
I had a thought about mutliclassing and archetypes. Since multiclassing tends to result in an inability of gaining full power in any of your classes, why not use the archetype model to swap out certain class abilities in one primary class for those of a secondary class. Usually, fighters who dip in rogue are after certain features, such as sneal attack, evasion, etc.
So, I've created a bunch of Core Class multiclass archetypes, swapping class features for others in another class. I tried to keep them as close to equivalent power levels while still keeping the flavor others may be looking for. Others of course can be created, but these are the ones I came up with. Use as you wish, or don't. I remember the old 2E style of multiclassing, and wanted to keep a similar flavor, without going for full gestalt style. Could also be done with the APG classes too, but I'm not about togo and do those. I'll leave those for someone else.
Enjoy.
These are very nice. They need play-testing to insure balance, but look to be a better way to multi-class.
These are super cool, yeah, though my criticism of them as a true substitute for multiclassing is that there should be more!
Yeah, there needs to be more, but it is a good start.
I'm glad you like them, and yea, I wish I could have done more too, but they take a lot of time. If i had it my way, I'd do a version of every class multiclassed with every other class, just for palyer's options.
I originally started with a matrix, where I assigned points to certain class abilities for every class and ability for Core Classes and APG classes. Then, any player could use that matrix to swap similar point based class abilities with those from another class, as they would like. You always start with your primary class, then swap with a secondary class. Let's just say, working that out was brain numbing, but it still isn't perfected yet. I need to take another look at my matrix.
It was designed for only multiclassing 2 classes, but I suppose it could also be used to do more than two (such as a fighter/rogue/wizard).
In essence, let say a fighter, could gain some of the rogue abilities - swap a bous feat for a single 1d6 sneak attack; swap a second bonus feat to increase that to 2d6, etc. It was taking a long time to work through (and I'll probably take another go at it), and that's when I came up with the archetype idea for multiclassing.
I would like to develop and perfect the class feature matrix, then anyone could easily custom make their multiclassed character without going for the gestalt.
I would like to develop and perfect the class feature matrix, then anyone could easily custom make their multiclassed character without going for the gestalt.
Yessss this is something I'd mentioned in another thread as an 'ideal situation,' where we know the relative values of skills and can just swap them around at will. I'd be interested to see how your work on the 'matrix' progresses.
I originally started with a matrix, where I assigned points to certain class abilities for every class and ability for Core Classes and APG classes. Then, any player could use that matrix to swap similar point based class abilities with those from another class, as they would like. You always start with your primary class, then swap with a secondary class. Let's just say, working that out was brain numbing, but it still isn't perfected yet. I need to take another look at my matrix.
It was designed for only multiclassing 2 classes, but I suppose it could also be used to do more than two (such as a fighter/rogue/wizard).
In essence, let say a fighter, could gain some of the rogue abilities - swap a bous feat for a single 1d6 sneak attack; swap a second bonus feat to increase that to 2d6, etc. It was taking a long time to work through (and I'll probably take another go at it), and that's when I came up with the archetype idea for multiclassing.
I actually think that is impracticable. Maybe, ideal, but still impracticable. A three way multiclass isn't practicable either. Triple multiclassing wasn't all that in 1e or 2e. You loose too much. That would be best represented by a couple of feats and skill choices.
|
Wow. Nice work, Elghinn ! :)
Typically the kind of options I'd never thought I would have expected from the Ultimate Combat until I saw them myself.
I know from your work on the Gunslinger that you tend to have really good ideas, only sometimes a bit too powerful. Right now this seems to not be the case, this feels balanced ! :3
Maybe you could add in this the possibility to trade the standard class bonus by a variant class bonus, for exemple by changing a fighter adept's "amateur armor"/"amateur weapon" training by any bonus granted by a variant fighter and following the same progression (for example, a "Two-handed Fighter" Adept).
I was just searching these days a way to create a barbarian-fighter for a special character in an upcoming campaign (the daughter of my fellow stupid half-ogre barbarian with my imperial fighter's mother, so technically my soon-to-be half-little sister. Loooong but awesome story). Berserk like, in the same inspiration than the barbarian pathfinder iconic, with a large bastard sword. Perfect for the character's background.
Fighter is too "strict" of a background for her, barbarian too wild in a noble family ; and literally cutting the class progression in half for each class makes her lose the good of each progression to little to no real benefit when it comes to special Two-handed fighter moves and rage powers with level prerequisites. I would love to see a take at savage fighter or rage tactician, for example, but it looks like a lot of suffering.
Guess I'll just multiclass the classic way on this one.
Still, nice work, an interesting take on the concept ! :)
What if we did something like this... literally splitting all classes in 'half,' and allowing them to be matched up with each other willy nilly. This way you still get full progressions of some but not all things. Basically each 'half' of a class would be its own 20-level set of abilities (with no new abilities every other level in most cases). And you could 'gestalt' them with each other, so you could take, say, the odd half of fighter and pair it with the even half of rogue, receiving armor training, weapon training, and rogue talents. You would take the average of skills/level, hit dice, BAB, and save bonuses, rather than the normal gestalt 'best of,' and... well I wonder how it'd go.
Here's some stuff I wrote up just now. It doesn't include every class but it should give an idea of possibilities.
Barbarian 1
- fast movement,
- rage rounds +2 @ odd levels,
- trap sense +1, +3, and +5,
- uncanny dodge @ L5 (stacks with UD to become improved UD),
- damage reduction 1, 3, and 5,
- greater rage @ L11 (stacks with greater rage to become mighty rage),
- tireless rage
Barbarian 2
- rage rounds +2 @ even levels,
- uncanny dodge @ L2 (stacks with UD to become improved UD),
- rage powers
- trap sense +2, +4, and +6,
- damage reduction 2 and 4,
- indomitable rage,
- greater rage @ L20 (stacks with greater rage to become mighty rage)
Bard 1
- bardic knowledge,
- bardic performance rounds +2 @ odd levels,
- countersong,
- distraction,
- fascinate,
- inspire courage,
- inspire competence,
- lore master,
- inspire greatness,
- inspire heroics,
- spellcasting @ odd levels
Bard 2
- bardic performance rounds +2 @ even levels,
- versatile performance,
- well-versed,
- suggestion,
- dirge of doom,
- jack-of-all-trades,
- soothing performance,
- frightening tune,
- mass suggestion,
- deadly performance,
- spellcasting @ even levels
Cleric 1
- aura,
- channel energy,
- domains (granted powers)
Cleric 2
- domains (spells, spell slots),
- spellcasting @ all levels
Druid 1
- nature bond,
- nature sense,
- wild empathy,
- trackless step,
- venom immunity,
- a thousand faces,
- timeless body,
- spellcasting @ odd levels
Druid 2
- woodland stride,
- resist nature's lure,
- wild shape
- spellcasting @ even levels
Fighter 1
- 1st bonus feat,
- armor training 1-4,
- weapon training 1-4,
- armor mastery
- treat fighter level as 1/2 fighter level for feat qualification
Fighter 2
- bravery +1, +2, +3, +4, +5,
- bonus feats @ even levels,
- weapon mastery
- treat fighter level as 1/2 fighter level for feat qualification
Monk 1
- bonus feat @ 1st level,
- flurry of blows (two-weapon fighting),
- stunning fist,
- unarmed strike (treat as 1/2 monk level to determine damage),
- wisdom bonus to AC,
- fast movement +10 ft @ 3rd, 9th, and 15th levels,
- maneuver training,
- still mind,
- high jump,
- purity of body,
- wholeness of body,
- evasion @ 9th level (stacks with evasion to become improved evasion),
- diamond body,
- diamond soul,
- quivering palm,
- flurry of blows (improved two-weapon fighting) @ 15th level (stacks with flurry of blows [improved two-weapon fighting] to become flurry of blows [greater two-weapon fighting]),
- timeless body,
- tongue of the sun and moon,
- empty body
Monk 2
- flurry of blows (two-weapon fighting),
- unarmed strike (treat as 1/2 monk level to determine damage),
- bonus feats @ 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels
- evasion @ 2nd level
- ki pool,
- slow fall,
- AC +1 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels,
- fast movement +10 ft @ 6th, 12th, and 18th levels,
- flurry of blows (improved two-weapon fighting) @ 8th level
- abundant step,
- perfect self
[bPaladin 1[/b]
- aura of good,
- detect evil,
- smite evil 1/day @ 1st, 7th, 13th, and 19th levels,
- - - - (treat paladin level as 1/2 paladin level for damage bonus)
- aura of courage,
- divine health,
- mercy @ 3rd, 9th, and 15th levels,
- - - - (these do nothing unless character has lay on hands)
- divine bond,
- aura of justice,
- aura of righteousness,
- spellcasting @ odd levels
Paladin 2
- divine grace,
- lay on hands,
- mercy @ 6th, 12th, and 18th levels,
- channel positive energy,
- smite evil 1/day @ 4th, 10th, and 16th levels,
- - - - (treat paladin level as 1/2 paladin level for damage bonus)
- aura of resolve,
- aura of faith,
- holy champion,
- spellcasting @ even levels
Ranger 1
- +1 favored enemy @ 1st, 5th, and 15th levels,
- track,
- wild empathy,
- endurance,
- +1 favored terrain @ 3rd and 13th levels,
- 2nd favored enemy,
- woodland stride,
- evasion @ 9th level,
- quarry,
- hide in plain sight,
- improved quarry,
- spellcasting @ odd levels
Ranger 2
- combat style feats @ 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels,
- hunter's bond,
- swift tracker,
- +1 favored terrain @ 8th and 18th levels,
- +1 favored enemy @ 10th and 20th levels,
- camouflage,
- evasion @ 16th level (stacks with evasion to become improved evasion),
- master hunter,
- spellcasting @ even levels
Rogue 1
- sneak attack,
- trapfinding,
- trap sense +1, +3, and +5
Rogue 2
- rogue talents,
- evasion @ L2,
- uncanny dodge @ L2 (stacks with UD to become improved UD),
- trap sense +2, +4, and +6,
- uncanny dodge @ L8 (stacks with UD to become improved UD),
- advanced rogue talents
- damage reduction 2 and 4,
- master strike
Sorcerer 1
- eschew materials
- 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th level bloodline powers,
- 7th, 13th, 19th level bloodline feats,
- bloodline spells
- - - - - (if no sorcerer spellcasting, add to list of spells known for other spontaneous spellcasting class. if no spontaneous spellcasting at a particular spell level, that spell can be cast 1/day as spell-like ability)
Sorcerer 2
- bloodline arcana,
- spellcasting @ all levels,
- 20th level bloodline power
Wizard 1
- arcane bond,
- scribe scroll,
- bonus feat @ 5th&15th levels,
- spellcasting @ odd levels
Wizard 2
- arcane school,
- bonus feat @ 10th&20th levels,
- spellcasting @ even levels
So if you went odd wizard, even fighter, you'd get an increase in spellcasting every other level, fighter bonus feats at every even level, bravery bonuses, arcane bond, scribe scroll, and 2 wizard bonus feats.
Levels in the same half of a class from multiple combinations would stack, so if you have, say, 5 levels of Wizard(odd)/Fighter(even) and 5 levels of Fighter(odd)/Fighter(even), you'd have all abilities granted from 5 levels of the "Wizard 1," all abilities granted from 5 levels of the "Fighter 1," and all abilities granted from 10 levels of the "Fighter 2."
(So: arcane bond as 5th-level wizard, scribe scroll, 1 wizard bonus feat, 3rd-level wizard spellcasting; 6 fighter bonus feats, bravery +3, armor training 2, and weapon training 1.)
I figure for the purposes of applying archetypes to half-classes, since most archetype class features explicitly replace some or all of an existing class feature, you can just swap out whichever pieces you have from your half of a class to receive that half of the archetype.
Thoughts?
Edit: spoiler now includes half-classes for all 11 core classes
Nice work! I may use those. Thanks.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
** spoiler omitted **...
I like where you're going. I want a simple but fair and nonoverpowered swapping system.
The tough part is deciding what can be swapped, and having things even out (relatively) powerwise. Most classes can swap out features for other fairly easily. The hardest is the Monk, because of all the multitude of class abilities they get. Here's my thoughts, and I have to work it out, but:
Let's say we want to "multiclass" a fighter and rogue. Now, you have the choice of having either fighter or rogue as your primary (p) class, and the other as your secondary (s). One or the other would result in a different type of "multiclass" character.
In the case of a fighter(p)/rogue(s), any fighter feature would be able to progress to it's full 20th level potency, such as bravery, weapon or armor training, and armor mastery and weapon mastery, or bonus feats. However, he would have to select what features he would like to swap to obtain rogue features (which can never be full potency). If you have it the other way, rogue(p)/fighter(s), the rogue's class features would maintain their full 20th level potency, except those he swaps out for fighter features.
Thus you can have a fighter with some roguish flavor, or a rogue with some martial flavor.
The tough part is, what does each feature equate to whan compared to other features. For example, let's look at a fighter(p)/rogue(s).
I have determined one fighter feat, a +1 bravery increase, and a +1 from armor or weapon training are the equivalent to a +1d6 sneak attack increase, a rogue single talent, or a rogue "exploit" (evasion, uncanny dodge, etc.)
Thus, I could simply swap my bravery feature outright for a total +5d6 sneak attack. Or swap 2 fighter feats for evasion and uncanny dodge. Then, I could still obtain my full benefits from armor and weapon training, armor and weapon mastery, d10 HD, full BAB, and good Fort save. Although, certain inherents might also need to be included, such as a flat +2 to total Reflex saves for "multiclassing" with rogue, but not jacking it up to a full "good" reflex save.
Like I said, other classes can be more difficult. I don't know if a paladin's 1/day smite equates to a +1d6 sneak attack or a fighter feat, because smite is restricted to #/day and the others are pretty much use anytime features. I'd almost say 2 uses/day of such features would equal a feat or a +1d6 sneak attack increase.
Like I said, I need to take a good look at the class abilities again. Some abilities don't translate well with others, such as lay on hands to a feat, for example. You would also need to have a strict rule with this that you can't swap "willy-nilly" across the board. What I mean is that if a Ftr/Rog wants to swap out fighter abiities for rogue abilities, and let's say wants to have improved uncanny dodge, then he must have swapped out to gain uncanny dodge as a prerequisite. Same with swapping out for cleric/sorcerer/wizard domain/bloodline/school powers.
You swap out for the first one, then the next, and so on. No swapping a fighter feat to gain a sorcerer's 15th level bloodline power, unless he's expending 3 previous feats to get the 1st, 3rd, and 9th level ones.
Just a quick look, I think the following could be equivalent buys/swaps:
1 rage power
1/- DR
1d6 channel energy
1 domain power
1/day wild shape
1 feat
+1 bravery
+1 armor training
+1 weapon training
+1 AC bonus
+1d6 lay on hands (heal or damage)
+2 favored enemy
+2 favored terrain
ranger exploits (evasion, imp. evasion)
1d6 sneak attack
+1 trap sense
1 rogue talent
1 sorcerer bloodline power
1 wizard school power
+1d6 bomb
1 discovery
1 order ability
+1 banner
1 revelation
+1 oracle curse
1 hex
Also, one could swap bond for bond (arcane, nature, divine, life, etc,)
That's all for tonight.
Maxx, you could do one of the following:
1) swap your 2nd lvel, and every other level feat for rage/rage powers, gain d12 HD, restrict armor training to medium armor or less, swap bravery for DR.
or
2) swap every other rage power for a fighter feat, trap sense for either armor or weapon training (or alternate both) up to +4, or swap every other rage power for armor or weapon training (or both) up to +4.
There, that's all for tonight.
Like I said, other classes can be more difficult. I don't know if a paladin's 1/day smite equates to a +1d6 sneak attack or a fighter feat, because smite is restricted to #/day and the others are pretty much use anytime features. I'd almost say 2 uses/day of such features would equal a feat or a +1d6 sneak attack increase.
Not so sure on that one. Smite Evil 1/day is limited to once/day... but it lasts until you kill the creature you're smiting. Unlike sneak attack, which is very tricky to use multiple times on the same foe, smite evil gives you consistently high bonuses on attack and damage against a target. Also, the effectiveness of your smite increases as you level up. There are three factors which scale to improve smite evil: uses per day (dependent on level), ATK bonus (dependent on CHA), and DMG bonus (dependent on level). A paladin who only gets 1 smite evil/day sees his ability get stronger as he levels; a rogue who only gets +1d6 sneak attack will always only ever do 1d6 sneak attack damage. It's hard to say if the one is equal to the other, but generally it seems the paladin's smite evil progression is considered weaker than the rogue's sneak attack by the devs, simply because the paladin gets more other nice things than the rogue does.
You would also need to have a strict rule with this that you can't swap "willy-nilly" across the board. What I mean is that if a Ftr/Rog wants to swap out fighter abiities for rogue abilities, and let's say wants to have improved uncanny dodge, then he must have swapped out to gain uncanny dodge as a prerequisite. Same with swapping out for cleric/sorcerer/wizard domain/bloodline/school powers.
With the system I outlined above, this wouldn't be a problem, as you'd need to level up to 8 in half-rogue to get improved uncanny dodge, all the while forgoing fighter bonus feats (which are on the same 'side' of the half-class divide). Just as an example.
Anyway... I look forward to continuing the conversation~
I hope to play test them this fall. In the next campain we run.
I also think it look like real Professional. Great Job!!!!!!
** spoiler omitted **...
THe way you have it set up is great, and easy if one wants to follow the true multiclass path. My point of view, is that if I choose a wizard/rogue, I don't want to sacrifice my 9th level spell access, or caster level to dip into rogue. I'd rather maintain my full caster level and spell access, and swap out less desirable features, such as my bonus feats for sneak attack damage instead - swap 1 feat for each +1d6 senak attack increase, then gain extra skills, and an increase of skill ranks.
HD only increases by 1 step if the two classes are 2 steps apart; thus a fighter/sorcer would gain d8 for HP if sorcerer is the primary class, but fighter would not drop if it was the primary. Like I said, I need to do some reworking. A rule needs to be established with the static things, like HD, Skills, ranks, armor/weapon proficiencies, and any restrictions of a particular class, such as inability to cast with armor.
Gotta go.
** spoiler omitted **...THe way you have it set up is great, and easy if one wants to follow the true multiclass path. My point of view, is that if I choose a wizard/rogue, I don't want to sacrifice my 9th level spell access, or caster level to dip into rogue. I'd rather maintain my full caster level and spell access, and swap out less desirable features, such as my bonus feats for sneak attack damage instead - swap 1 feat for each +1d6 senak attack increase, then gain extra skills, and an increase of skill ranks.
Oh for sure. yeah. I'm with you on that one.
Unless I overlooked it, I'd love to see a Fighter/Monk archetype. Basically, something that switches out Fighter abilities for the Monk's unarmed damage progression. And maybe even get's a Monk-like bonus to AC. I've been trying to make an unarmed Fighter for a while, but nothing beats a Monk's unarmed strike. These archetypes are wonderful, especially for someone like me who loves to multiclass.
I did a monk/fighter (swapping out monk abilities for fighter abilities) aka the War Vicar. Like I said, I didn't have time to do every combination. If you read through the ones I did, you should get the gist of what and how I did the swaps.
As for the Fighter/Monk, here’s what I came up with. Might be overpowered, but I thinks it’s a good mix of fighter and monk, both restrictions and benefits. Give it a try.
Alignment: LG
HD: d10
Base Save: Fort (good)
Bonus saves: +2 Ref/Will
Bonus Skills: 3 monk skills (your choice)
Bonus Ranks: +1/level
BAB: Fighter (full)
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple and monk weapons, light martial weapons, light armor, light shields.
Level/Class Feature
1- Unarmed strike (monk weapons only; replaces level 1 bonus feat)
2- Flurry of blows (replaces lvl 2, 8, 16, and 20 bonus feats), AC bonus +1 (unarmored only; replaces bravery)
3- Armor training +1 (light only)
4- Bonus feat
5- Weapon training +1 (may only select from list but still restricted to simple, monk, and light martial weapons)
6- Unarmed damage increase (replaces bonus feat), AC +2 (unarmored only; replaces bravery)
7- Armor training +2 (light only)
8- none (see Flurry)
9- Weapon training +2
10- Unarmed damage increase (replaces bonus feat), AC +3 (unarmored only; replaces bravery)
11- Armor training +3 (light only)
12- Light Armored Monk (allows use of flurry of blows in light armor, but not unarmored AC bonus; replaces bonus feat)
13- Weapon training +3
14- Unarmed damage increase (replaces bonus feat), AC +4 (unarmored only; replaces bravery)
15- Armor training +4 (light only)
16- none (see Flurry)
17- Weapon training +4
18- Unarmed damage increase (replaces bonus feat), AC +5 (unarmored only; replaces bravery)
19- Armor mastery (light only)
20- Weapon mastery (same restrictions as training
83 downloads of the pdf and that's all the comments I get? Anyone else? Thoughts? Ideas? Playtest feedback? Just curious.
I think most class abilities can be swapped out for another similar one without too much fuss. I use a bonu feat as the base. Something similar to a feat can be swapped out for that feat, or one use of smie evil, or 1d6 sneak attack, evasin, rage ability, one rage power, etc. Allows for simple customizing of characters IMO.
Flak's idea is good too, if you're looking for normal multiclassesque type characters, because you do lose access to full casting ability and other class features.
Hey Flak, could you also swap odd for even in another class? Say, take even levels Barabarian, and swap your odd levels for even levels in fighter?
Well, from my read thru, I didn't see any major problems. I like the balance pretty much. I know somebody doing the whole number crunching bit will shoot some holes, but I like the flavor. I see the ability to put in more archtypes, but I think some of them would be rather pointless. No need for a Ranger/Fighter. A Ranger/Rogue, maybe called the Bushwacker, would be awesome. I think one thing would be another Fighter/Rogue for a true Swashbuckler.
Mainly I give it a 10 for a first pass, at least as released to us. I think a lot of ideas could spawn form the system you created here. I prefer that direction over the mix/match play you are toying with in the thread. The matrix, while nice for the flexibility, seems too complex.
Fantastic!
One of my players in my current campaign wanted to play a Warmage (this before the Magus was out), and while he wrote a class conversion, I wasn't thrilled with it. These days, I am increasingly convinced that the traditional multiclass combinations can be done via Archetypes, and this is brilliant proof of concept. (Although the only two I will disagree with are your Monk class names.) I haven't read through with an eye towards balance, but nothing struck em as overpowered.
I may well present this as an option in my games.
Thanks guy. I will be honest, one of the hardest things was coming up with names for some of the archetypes, especially the monk ones.
I am planning on doinga Multiclass Archetypes II, with APG multiclass archetypes, both with Core classes and other Base Classes.
What I would like is some ideas from the community as to what they find to be good multiclass combos with Core/Base, and Base/Base classes. Spread the word that I looking for some input. I have some ideas as to what I think would make some great combos, but would like some more input from the community who actually play everything with everything as a collective.
I may just stat a new post to gather that info. We'll see.
Looking through it now, and really liking what I see. I do have a couple questions, though.
Spellrager: You talk about them gaining a "spell based off their bloodline" which I assume means their bloodline spell. However, you neglect to mention which level the spells are, or in which order they gain them. The intent, I believe, is to go in order from levels 1-5, but as it's written, you could choose your 9th level spell at level 2.
Also, it mentions a "Save Bonus" that is +2 will. Does this mean they gain +2 to their will saves from level 1, or that their new high save is will?
Songfilch: This feels a lot like the Sandman from the APG, except you're using rogue talents instead of its "steal spell" mechanics. You do mention "exploits" in its selectable abilities, and mention evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. However, you do not define exactly what exploits are, and that's leaving me scratching my head as to what else I could choose.
I haven't read through it all, but I'm noticing a trend for terms without definitions, which is a readability problem. Overall, though, I really like the concept. I'll give more comments once I'm done reading it, as well as propose some new ideas for part II.
...Catch Phrase
-Chris
EDIT: Also, where did you get the art for this? I've been looking around and I can't find a lot of these pictures.
|
|
The second class always is the principal one in the following examples, I was not sure how to put in in english. So, a paladin monk is at the core a monk with some paladin abilities.
Paladin monk : Monk of the light.
Monk paladin : Holy fist.
Fighter monk : Dojo master.
Monk fighter : Street fighter.
Here are some interesting multiclass archetypes (the exemple you gave about fighter/barbarian is a good explaination of a short and simple template to cross-multiclass the variants, maybe even simpler that what you already did in the PDF). Just some thoughts, I like the concept but will probably never be able use it with the variety the APG and UM gave us and because of the impossibility to do so in the present campaign, but there are always some ideas that could interest other people. Take notes for UC paizo, this is a freakin' nice concept that I would love to see official !
- Furious warrior (barbarian fighter or fighter barbarian)
- Druggist (barbarian alchemist) / Wrecker (alchemist barbarian)
- Dandy (bard cavalier)
- Herald (paladin bard or cavalier bard)
- Arcanist devot (wizard cleric)
- Executor (fighter inquisitor)
- Savage spirit of the wild (druid barbarian) (Mononoke !)
- Plaguebringer (cavalier witch)...
These are excellent. Great presentation, too. Looks like you put a lot of work into this.
Good job!
I want to preface this WHOLE post by saying, "I love, love, love, love, love this idea! The only reason I'm nitpicking it is because I really, really, really want it to succeed."
Just a few notes, having read it:
There are a few typos throughout it. One of the most notable was in the Battle Adept, under skills, where it says that it gains all the skills of an adept. I think that is supposed to say cleric. Also, later on under weapon training it mentions the "battle knave," which I believe is supposed to be "battle adept." There are more, but I didn't note them.
A question on the "Forest Master." Why does a combo druid-ranger have to be dedicated to forests? It feels very restricting, when there could just as easily be a "Desert Master" or a "Cave Master." Just a general question.
To get nitpicky, there are a few spots that need some cleaning. In a lot of the cleric-based archetypes, you lose a domain. You state that you lose the domain under the "Domain" section. You do not, later, need to state that certain abilities "replace one domain." It's assumed that, since you lost the domain, some other abilities will make up for it. There's precedence for this in the cleric archetypes located in UM.
More Nitpicks:
Spellrager: Do these spells count as spells or spell-like abilities? I wonder because this class could qualify for prestige classes that are normally reserved for casters if they're spells.
Spellarbor: Under Medium Armor, it should probably state that such armor can't be metal, as is standard.
Also, the spontaneous casting of druid spells gets a little fuzzy. If it's what I think it is, then you need to note that you sacrifice one of your prepared druid spells to cast another prepared druid spell (which is awkward). Overall, though, I think it's a little overpowering, and would cut it altogether. It's powerful enough with its bloodline spells, I think.
Silent Warrior: You again make a reference to "exploits" without defining them.
Knight Templar: If it can only use its weapon bond ability a set number of times per day, then why feed it with Ki, an already-limited resource? I think that, should you feed it with ki, you should remove the limit-per-day noted at the end. If you want to keep the limit-per-day, then I suggest making it its own pool of uses, rather than running it off ki. Otherwise, it just seems to be gimping the archetype for no reason.
War Vicar: Altogether too powerful. Lose the Armor Training and I think you'll be okay. Giving monks armor is powerful in and of itself. Then enhancing that armor with a class ability just seems a little over the top (also, it taps out 2 levels higher than the weapon training, which is counter to the fighter, who caps armor training first).
This concludes part I of my nitpicky-douchebaggy-critique of your document. Again, I want to reiterate, I LOVE this idea. I'm only nitpicking because I want it to succeed.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
And something big I would change: Remove every "Amateur" in the document. Other than being flavorful, its only purpose is to prevent characters from qualifying for feats/prestige classes they normally would if they had the standard ability. If it functions in exactly the same way as the normal ability (regardless of when you get it), then it should just be the same ability.
Looking through it now, and really liking what I see. I do have a couple questions, though.
Spellrager: You talk about them gaining a "spell based off their bloodline" which I assume means their bloodline spell. However, you neglect to mention which level the spells are, or in which order they gain them. The intent, I believe, is to go in order from levels 1-5, but as it's written, you could choose your 9th level spell at level 2.
Yes! One thing with this Multiclass archetyping is that you can't just jump to certain abilities without gaining previous ones. So in this instance, each time the spellrager gains a bloodline spell, he gain the first one listed in the bloodline, the next one second, the next one after that, etc. I Figured that was a given. Remember, you are technically "multiclassing" but in an archetype form. So, following the multiclass rule, if you barbarian/sorcerer multiclass, you DON'T receive later bloodline spells or powers without fist obtaiing the ones preceding them. Many of the same multiclass rules still apply.
Also, it mentions a "Save Bonus" that is +2 will. Does this mean they gain +2 to their will saves from level 1, or that their new high save is will?
When you normally multiclass, you take the increase for a particular save from one class, and those from your second class and combine them. For eg. a barbarin 4/sorcerer2 would have a save bonus of +4/+1/+1 for barbarian and +0/+0/+3 for sorcerer, then you combine them for a total of +4/+1/+4. Well, being that you are not gaining every class ability from sorcerer, you shouldn't gain the full benefits of an increse in a particular save. Thus, the Spellrager would use the base saves of a barbarian, but gains a +2 bonus to his Will saves to represent his training as sorcerer and toughening of his mind. The fighter/rogue (silent warrior) uses the fighter base saves but gains a +2 Ref save bonus, whiel the rogue/fighter (battle knave) uses the rogue base saves and gains a +2 Fort save bonus. Make sense?
Songfilch: This feels a lot like the Sandman from the APG, except you're using rogue talents instead of its "steal spell" mechanics. You do mention "exploits" in its selectable abilities, and mention evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. However, you do not define exactly what exploits are, and that's leaving me scratching my head as to what else I could choose.
The rogues talents are of course his talents, exploits are the following rogue abilties: evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge. These may be chosen instead of a talent, but must be taken in order they appear in the rogue class. Again one cannot jump past a class ability in a particular string. You don't get smite evil 2/day without getting smite evil 1/day first.
I haven't read through it all, but I'm noticing a trend for terms without definitions, which is a readability problem. Overall, though, I really like the concept. I'll give more comments once I'm done reading it, as well as propose some new ideas for part II.
...Catch Phrase
-Chris
EDIT: Also, where did you get the art for this? I've been looking around and I can't find a lot of these pictures.
Found lots of them on Deviant Art or did gallery searches of specific artists.
I want to preface this WHOLE post by saying, "I love, love, love, love, love this idea! The only reason I'm nitpicking it is because I really, really, really want it to succeed."
Just a few notes, having read it:
There are a few typos ....
Spellrager: Do these spells count as spells or spell-like abilities? I wonder because this class could qualify for prestige classes that are normally reserved for casters if they're spells.
...
Good points. I will address your concerns in a future post and the upcoming revised version of my original pdf. Consider it a 1.1 version with fixed typos and a better explanation of the multiclass archetype system. I just wanted to post the following as an example of the "Guidelines" I'll be including in the pdf, and the fixed Spellrager, which I think is much better explained. That you for you input, because when I work on stuff like this, I can miss certain things after stating at the same words over and over. Fresh eyes help alot.
Here's my Guidelines and the revised spellrager. I figured I better get a solid way of doing the srchetypes and presenting them before I go and do the APG archetypes. Tell me what you think.
GUIDELINES FOR MULTICLASS ARCHETYPES
Multiclass archetypes, like traditional multiclassing, are a blend of two distinct classes. The first class in which a character gains experience is considered that character’s favored class. When one multiclasses, the character selects another class in order to diversify his repertoire of skills and class abilities, and must adhere to certain established rules. The following terms and their descriptions provide the general guidelines used to create multiclass archetypes.
Primary Class: The primary class of a mutlticlass archetype is the one upon which the archetype is based, and supplies the base hit dice, skills, skill ranks, alignment restrictions, attack bonus, saves, and class abilities for the archetype. All aspects of the primary class are adhered to within the multiclass archetype, except those altered according to archetype’s secondary class. The primary class is also the same as the class section in which the archetype is listed, such as the Spellrager, which is described in the Barbarian section of this book. In traditional multiclassing, the primary class is the character’s favored class, as selected at first level.
Secondary Class: The secondary class of a multiclass archetype provides the alternate class abilities that replace those of the primary class. In traditional multiclassing, the secondary class is a character’s class he chooses to gain experience in addition to his favored class.
Alignment: Multiclass archetypes must adhere to the alignment restrictions of your primary or secondary class. Therefore, you cannot have a multiclass archetype with conflicting alignment restrictions, such as barbarian (any nonlawful) and paladin (lawful good only).
Hit Dice: Multiclass archetypes retain the hit dice of your primary class, unless your secondary class hit dice is two steps away (above or below) from of your primary class. It such cases, you gain new hit dice that is one step below or above that of your primary class. For example, a rogue/wizard would retain his d8 hit dice, while a fighter/wizard would receive d8 hit dice instead of the normal d10.
Skills and Ranks: Multiclass archetypes use the skills and ranks at each level listed in the the primary class entry.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Multiclass archetypes gain bonus skills and ranks at each level based upon their secondary class. Depending upon the discrepancy of skills and ranks between the primary and secondary classes, the archetype provides additional skills and ranks to uphold the multiclassing flavor of the archetype. Multiclass archetype use the skill set and ranks of its primary class. If the archetype’s secondary class gains up to more 2 ranks at each level above that of the primary class, the archetype gains three additional skills of the character’s choice, selected from the skill set of the secondary class, and 1 bonus rank at each level. If the secondary class gains 4 or more ranks at each level above that of the primary class, the archetype gains six bonus skills and 2 bonus ranks at each level. For example, a fighter/rogue archetype has fighter as its primary class and rogue as its secondary class. Thus, the fighter/rogue archetype uses the fighter skill list, but gains six bonus skills from the rogue’s skill list of the character’s choice, and gains a total of 4 ranks at each level. Subsequently, a bard/ranger would use the bard skill list, but only gains three bonus skills from the ranger skill list and a total of 3 skill ranks at each level.
Bonus to Base Attack: Multiclass archetypes use the base attack bonus of their primary class. If the secondary class has a base attack bonus two steps above that of the primary class, the archetype gains a +1 bonus to its base attack bonus. This bonus increases to +2 at 10th level. Only the base attack bonus of the primary class increases, not the number of attacks. For example, a sorcerer/rogue multiclass archetype’s base attack bonus would remain the same, but a sorcerer/fighter would gain a +1 bonus to its base attack bonus (increasing to +2 at 10th level).
Save Bonus: As described above, multiclass archetypes retain the base saves of its primary class. However, if the secondary class has good saves in a category that the primary class does not, you add a +2 bonus to that category. For example, a fighter has good Fortitude saves and poor Reflex and Will saves. If his secondary class is sorcerer (good Will and poor Fortitude and Reflex saves), he would then gain a +2 bonus to his base Will save. Thus, by 20th level, a fighter/sorcerer multiclass archetype would have an overall base save of +12/+6/+8 instead of the normal +12/+6/+6.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Multiclass archetypes use the weapon and armor proficiency of the primary class, but will often gain additional weapon proficiency acquired from the secondary class. Depending upon the secondary class, the archetype may also gain additional proficiency in armor, although the primary class restrictions will still apply, such as a druid’s restriction on using metal armors. Some archetypes may gain armor proficiency that hampers certain class abilities, such as with arcane spellcasters. In such cases, if the archetype flavor warrants it, the archetype will gain a class feature allowing it to use such abilities with armor in an incremental progression, similar to the armor progression of the Magus (see Ultimate Magic). The overall power of the multiclass archetype determines whether such allowances are warranted or not.
Capstone Abilities: Multiclass archetypes retain the capstone ability of their primary class, and never gain the capstone ability of their secondary class. The capstone ability of a multiclass archetype’s primary class may not be swapped.
BARBARIAN
Barbarians are tough and brutish, and not necessarily prone to multiclassing with other classes. However, there are certain classes that compliment their natural fury and wild tendencies. The following multiclass archetype allows you to create a character with primal and arcane might.
Primary Class: Barbarian.
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
SPELLRAGER
A spellrager combines the rage powers of the barbarian with the innate bloodline and spellcasting abilities of a sorcerer. She uses her bloodline powers and spells to enhance her inner fury and prowess in battle.
Secondary Class: Sorcerer.
Hit Dice: d10.
Save Bonus: +2 Will.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Spellragers may select three sorcerer skills to add to her class skills. They also gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level in their multiclass archetype.
Bonus to Base Attack: Spellragers gain a +1 to their base attack bonus; +2 to base attack bonus at 10th level.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Spellragers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower).
Light Armor (Ex): A spellrager can cast her bloodline spells without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance only if she is wearing light or no armor. A spellrager wearing medium armor, heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
Sorcerer Bloodline: Spellragers gain the sorcerer bloodline class ability and may only choose from the following bloodlines: abyssal, boreal*, celestial, deep earth*, draconic, elemental, fey, infernal, protean*, or stormborn*. (*Advance Players Guide)
At 1st level, a spellrager adds the skill listed in her bloodline to her class skills and gains her bloodline arcana.
At 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a spellrager learns a bloodline spell, as derived from her bloodline. Bloodline spells gained in this manner may be cast spontaneously once per day, with a caster level equal to the spellrager’s level. In addition, at each such interval, the number of times per day the spellrager can cast a previously gained bloodline spell increases to twice per day. The spellrager’s bloodline spells are considered his spells per day, and may be used to qualify for prestige classes with spell level casting requirements. This ability replaces rage power at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th level.
Beginning at 3rd level, a spellrager gains her first bloodline power. She gains her second bloodline power at 9th level, and her third bloodline power at 15th level. This ability replaces trap sense at 3rd, 9th, and 15th level.
Like what you're doing. Like the definitions. Only 1 question.
Concerning the BAB rules...why not just use a "increase 1 step" ruling, so it would jump from 1/2 to 3/4 BAB?
And also concerning the BAB rules...why does the spellrager gain the BAB bonus, when he already has 1/1 BAB? That essentially gives him +2 BAB at level 1 (which is horrifically overpowered) and +22 BAB at level 20 (which gives him a 5th attack). Unless I missed something, this seems a little off.
Again, I do love this idea, and when it's complete (and I am all for helping along the way), I plan to usurp standard multiclass rules with it. My criticism is merely a product of my love for this idea.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
1) Yea, that might be good. I just wasn't sure I wanted to have the archetypes actually gain extra attacks per round, just an increase in attack bonus. That would make it an easier process to deal with the change.
2) You're right! That's what happens at 12 am when I'm about to go to bed. They don't get the bonus to attack.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
1) Yea, that might be good. I just wasn't sure I wanted to have the archetypes actually gain extra attacks per round, just an increase in attack bonus. That would make it an easier process to deal with the change.
2) You're right! That's what happens at 12 am when I'm about to go to bed. They don't get the bonus to attack.
I'm super enjoying these archetypes, and have actually already started using one of them in a game. The Stealth Mage is the basis for a character I'm using, in which I took three levels of Stealth Mage, then 1 level of Rogue and was able to start the Arcane Trickster prestige class two levels early! That made me extremely happy.
I would definitely like to see some of these written up for the APG classes also (I already have an Oracle/Rogue multiclass character that would make a lot more sense as a Rogue Archetype), so I will probably try to add to these. If you don't mind, that is. I'll PM you anything I come up with beforehand to get your approval. Cool?
+1
I'm actually going through my current archetypes and revamping them a bit to flow better and adjust certain things that need clarification or nerfing. I will then repost it as a revised version, then get to work on the APGs.
I glad to hear people are using and enjoying this idea.
Knight Templar: If it...
Here's the Divine Bond change for the Knight Templar.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a knight templar gains the weapon form of the paladin divine bond class ability. A knight templar can use this ability to enhance any monk weapon he wields, including his bare hands, for 1 minute per knight templar level. While in effect, these weapons (including unarmed strikes) are granted a +1 enhancement bonus, and are considered magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. For every four levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5.
In addition, the knight templar can spend these enhancement bonuses to add the defending, flaming, keen, and merciful weapon properties. At 12th level, the knight templar can add the disruption, flaming burst, holy, or lawful weapon properties. At 19th level, the knight templar can add the speed weapon property. Adding these weapon properties expend an enhancement bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier as shown on Table 15-9 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. These bonuses may be added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack.
If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the knight templar’s are determined when the ability is activate and cannot be changed until the previous enhancements have expired. The bond imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the knight templar but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the knight templar. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A knight templar can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day at 11th and 18th level.
If a bonded weapon is destroyed, the knight templar loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until he gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the knight templar takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. This ability replaces high jump, abundant step, empty body and bonus feats at 6th and 14th level.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Knight Templar: If it...Here's the Divine Bond change for the Knight Templar.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a knight templar gains the weapon form of the paladin divine bond class ability. A knight templar can use this ability to enhance any monk weapon he wields, including his bare hands, for 1 minute per knight templar level. While in effect, these weapons (including unarmed strikes) are granted a +1 enhancement bonus, and are considered magical for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. For every four levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5.
In addition, the knight templar can spend these enhancement bonuses to add the defending, flaming, keen, and merciful weapon properties. At 12th level, the knight templar can add the disruption, flaming burst, holy, or lawful weapon properties. At 19th level, the knight templar can add the speed weapon property. Adding these weapon properties expend an enhancement bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier as shown on Table 15-9 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. These bonuses may be added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack.
If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the knight templar’s are determined when the ability is activate and cannot be changed until the previous enhancements have expired. The bond imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the knight templar but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the knight templar. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A knight templar can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day at 11th and 18th level.
If a bonded weapon is destroyed, the knight templar...
Here's my take on a Rogue with the Oracle as a secondary class, following the guidelines you posted above:
A Mystic Rogue uses the innate divine abilities granted to her from birth to aid her martial and skll-based abilities. She is both gifted and cursed with an Oracle’s strange visions and powers.
Secondary Class: Oracle
Hit Dice: d8
Skills: Mystic Rogues gain all of the class skills of a Rogue and may select three Oracle skills to add to her class skills.These can be chosen either from the base Oracle class skill list, or from the additional skills granted by the Mystic Rogue’s Mystery class feature.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow and short sword. They are proficient with light armor and are not proficient with shields of any type.
Mystery: At first level, a Mystic Rogue chooses an Oracle Mystery. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. At fourth level, and every four levels thereafter, a Mystic Rogue learns to cast spells based on her Mystery. These are taken from the list of bonus spells given in the description of the mystery, and are learned in the same order as shown in the description of the mystery. These spells are divine in nature, and can be cast spontaneously once per day. This ability replaces rogue talent at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th levels.
Oracle’s Curse: At first level, a Mystic Rogue must choose one Oracle’s Curse. This functions exactly as the Oracle’s Curse class feature listed under the Oracle class, and progresses in the same way.
Revelations: Beginning at 1st level, a Mystic Rogue can choose one Revelation associated with her chosen Mystery. Unless otherwise noted, the DC to save against the Revelation is 10 + ½ the Mystic Rogue level + her Charisma modifier. Levels in the Oracle class stack with this ability when determining the required level for a Revelation and any save DCs associated. If a Revelation lists a level requirement, I.E. “You must be at least 7th level to choose this Revelation,” levels in the Oracle class stack when determining the required level. The Mystic Rogue may choose another Revelation at level 6, and then at every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces the rogue abilities Trapfinding and Trap sense.
Special: A Mystic Rogue qualifies for the Extra Revelation feat, and can choose spells from the Cleric spell list in addition to the Sorceror/Wizard spell list when she chooses the Minor Magic or Major Magic feats.
These can be chosen either from the base Oracle class skill list, or from the additional skills granted by the Mystic Rogue’s Mystery class feature.
Don't you automatically get the mystery's skill as a class skill as part of the mystery class feature?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
These can be chosen either from the base Oracle class skill list, or from the additional skills granted by the Mystic Rogue’s Mystery class feature.Don't you automatically get the mystery's skill as a class skill as part of the mystery class feature?
You would as a straight Oracle, but to stick to the guidelines shown above I said you can pick some instead. Plus, if you pick a Mystery that has Rogue class skills in it, you'd sorta be getting cheated.
The second class always is the principal one in the following examples, I was not sure how to put in in english. So, a paladin monk is at the core a monk with some paladin abilities.
Paladin monk : Monk of the light.
Monk paladin : Holy fist.
Fighter monk : Dojo master.
Monk fighter : Street fighter.Here are some interesting multiclass archetypes (the exemple you gave about fighter/barbarian is a good explaination of a short and simple template to cross-multiclass the variants, maybe even simpler that what you already did in the PDF). Just some thoughts, I like the concept but will probably never be able use it with the variety the APG and UM gave us and because of the impossibility to do so in the present campaign, but there are always some ideas that could interest other people. Take notes for UC paizo, this is a freakin' nice concept that I would love to see official !
- Furious warrior (barbarian fighter or fighter barbarian)
- Druggist (barbarian alchemist) / Wrecker (alchemist barbarian)
- Dandy (bard cavalier)
- Herald (paladin bard or cavalier bard)
- Arcanist devot (wizard cleric)
- Executor (fighter inquisitor)
- Savage spirit of the wild (druid barbarian) (Mononoke !)
- Plaguebringer (cavalier witch)...
Hey Maxx, these are your own multiclass archetype concepts, right? I like a bunch of them, especially the names. I will be using some of the concepts in the APG Archetype pdf.
Here is a call out to by community brothers (and sisters). I have a number of possible archetype combos, but need some help as to whether they are interesting enough concepts, and what they should be called.
The following lists the primary class first and then the secondary class. And i am aware we don'tknow what the final gunslinger will be like, but I can still work on the concept.
Druid/Alchemist
Fighter/Alchemist
Rogue/Alchemist
Wizard/Alchemist
Alchemist/Gunslinger
Antipaladin/Rogue
Antipaladin/Sorcerer
Cavalier/Gunslinger
Cavalier/Bard
Cavalier/Witch
Cavalier/Wizard(necromancy school)
Gunslinger/Sorcerer
Gunslinger/Ranger
Gunslinger/Wizard
Inquisitor/Paladin
Magus/Gunslinger
Magus/Bard
Magus/Monk
Oracle/Rogue
Summoner/Wizard
Witch/Alchemist
Barbarian/Witch
Witch/Druid
Druid/Witch
Thankyou for any and all input.
Ok, here are a few. Due to somewhat impinging archetypes (as in, the themes the classes are based on), a few names can be valid for several combinations - such as druid/alchemists and druid/witches.
Druid/alchemist: hermit, sage
Fighter/Alchemist: augmenticist
Rogue/alchemist: heh, I tried making a prestige class based on the arcane trickser called rogue chemist. Kinda unoriginal, though - perhaps "mistshade" can work better?
wizard/alchemist OR witch/alchemist: I'm not too keen on this since alchemy is generally considered a set of wizardry... perhaps philterist?
alchemist/gunslinger: savant gunwright (or however you'd call someone specializing in gunpowder weapons of all sorts)
cavalier/gunslinger: dragoon
antipaladin/rogue: darkshade
antipaladin/sorcerer: fiendblood
Cavalier/bard - I'd go with herald, here, or bannerman/woman
Cavalier/witch - horse-whisperer / Totem-talker
Cavalier/necromancer - bone knight/ash knight
Gunslinger/sorcerer - gun-charmer
Gunslinger/ranger - I'm leaning towards "trapper" here, due to RL allusions.
Inquisitor/paladin: X's eye, lightbringer, etc - there are probably others depending on the particulars of the faith
Magus/monk: Initiate of the ((style, i.e. "ghost fist")).
Barbarian/witch: shaman, spirit-caller, ((Totem/familiar))-spirit warrior
Witch/druid: depends on just what gets transferred to which class, possibly hermit again, or ((terrain)) warden/sage
Cavalier/Bard - Gallant
Oracle/Barbarian - Rage Prophet
Witch/Druid - Witch of the Wild
Bard/Fighter - Blade Dancer
Fighter/Rogue - Swashbuckler
Fighter/Bard - Blade Singer
Fighter/Bard - Sword Poet
Ranger/Rogue - Bushwacker
Rogue/Ranger - Bounty Hunter
Sorcerer/Bard - Dragon Singer
Monk/Fighter - Kensai
Magus/Gunslinger - Gun Mage
Magus/Monk - Arcane Fist
Oracle/Bard - Spirit Singer
Oracle/Druid - Spirit Shaman
Monk/Cleric - Holy Fist
Fighter/Monk - Temple Guard
Bard/Cleric - Divine Voice
|
|
Hey Maxx, these are your own multiclass archetype concepts, right? I like a bunch of them, especially the names. I will be using some of the concepts in the APG Archetype pdf.
Well yes, these are "mine", but I'm surely not the first one to think about them. I thought about concepts that weren't fully playable without having to multiclass hard. Feel free to use everything you like in any way you want. ;)
I'll rewrite my examples by using your primary/secondary class format, and a bit more information about what I would see as class abilities in these concepts. These are not complete builds, but only tracks to better see the concept.Monk/Paladin : Monk of the light. (Flurry, smite evil, lay on hands.)
Paladin/Monk : Holy fist. (Flurry, smite evil, divine bond.)
Monk/Fighter : Dojo master. (Flurry, no armor, ki, weapon training.)
Fighter/Monk : Street fighter. (Flurry, no armor, unarmed fight progression with full BAB.)
Fighter/Barbarian : Furious warrior. (D10, Rage, Armor training, Weapon training, rage powers, DR.)
Barbarian/Fighter : Legionnaire. (D12, Rage, Armor training, Trap sense, Bonus feats, dodge, DR.)
- Alchemist/Barbarian : Druggist (D8, Rage, Mutagen, Discoveries, Extracts.)
- Barbarian/Alchemist : Wrecker (D12, Rage, Bombs, Trap Sense, Rage Powers, Discoveries.)
- Bard/Cavalier : Dandy. (Inspire Courage, Challenge, Mount, Order, Fascinate, spellcasting.)
- Cavalier/Bard : Herald. (Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Order, Tactician, Charge, Banner, Mount.)
- Cleric/Wizard : Arcanist devot. (Same that yout Wizard/Cleric, only the opposite. :3)
- Barbarian/Druid : Savage spirit of the wild. (Rage, Nature Bond = animal companion and limited healing/conjuration to replace trap sense, rage powers and DR. Think Princess Mononoke.)
- Witch/Cavalier : Plaguebringer. (Full spellcasting, less spells/day, mount as familiar, hexes.)
And one last that would kool :
- Magus/Gunslinger : Pistomage. (Spell combat, spellstrike, Deeds, grit as arcane pool.)
Here's my Plaguebringer. I thought the Witch/Antipaladin worked better for the concept than the Witch/Cavalier.
PLAGUEBRINGER
Plaguebringers combine the corruptive power of a antipaladin with the potent and disparaging hexes of a witch. She can use her touch of corruption to deliver damage and cruel side effects, spread disease, cast spells, and perform hexes to demoralize and affect her opponents with virulent diseases.
Primary Class: Witch.
Secondary Class: Antipaladin.
Hit Dice: d8.
Save Bonus: +2 Fortitude.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Plaguebringers may select three antipaladin skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal witch class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Plaguebringers are proficient with all simple and one-handed martial weapons, with light armor, but not with shields.
Spellcasting: Plaguebringers casts spells from both the witch and antipaladin spell lists. They cast spells at a caster level equal to their plaguebringer level and favor spells that cause pain, disease, corruption and death.
Touch of Corruption (Su): At 2nd level, a plaguebringer gains the antipaladin touch of corruption class ability. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her plaguebringer level + her Charisma modifier. As a touch attack, a plaguebringer can cause 1d6 points of damage for every four plaguebringer levels she possesses, to a total of 5d6 damage. Using this ability is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces hex at 2nd level.
Plague Bringer (Su): At 6th level, a plaguebringer gains the antipaladin plague bringer class ability. This ability replaces hex at 6th level.
Cruelty (Su): Beginning at 10th level, and every four levels thereafter, a plaguebringer can select one cruelty, as the antipaladin class ability. Each cruelty adds an effect to the plaguebringer’s touch of corruption ability, in addition to the damage. The target receives a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1/ the plaguebringer’s level + the plaguebringer’s Charisma modifier) to avoid this cruelty. If the save is successful, the target takes the damage as normal, but not the effects of the cruelty. At 10th level, the plaguebringer can select from the fatigued, shaken, or sickened cruelties. At 14th level, the plaguebringer can select from the dazed, diseased, and staggered cruelties. At 18th level, the plaguebringer can select from the cursed, exhausted, frightened, nauseated, and poisoned cruelties. This ability replaces hex at 10th, 14th, and 18th level.
Patron Themes: The following patron themes complement the plaguebringer multiclassing archetype: death* or plague.
Hexes: The following hexes complement the plaguebringer multiclassing archetype: beast of ill-omen*, blight, charm, evil eye, nails*, and poison steep*.
Greater Hexes: The following greater hexes complement the plaguebringer multiclassing archetype: agony, infected wounds*, and retribution.
Grand Hexes: The following grand hexes complement the plaguebringer multiclassing archetype: death curse and dire prophecy*.
*see the Advanced Player’s Guide
|
|
Well, at first I saw the Plaguebringer as a pathfinder representation of the 4th apocalypse cavalier, bringer of Death and Pestilence.
But actually you are right about the anti-paladin, he is naturally way better at this, I forgot about these disease-related class abilities.
Your plaguebringer is really nice (loving the sense of detail with the patron/hexes suggestions at the end).
Now to summon the obligatory nightmare/horse and bring the plague to the world, oh oh oh !
Hey, if there are any developers reading this, can you have this thread moved to General Discussion, or something more appropriate. Although this may be homebrewesque, I'd like to see the concept discussed among a wider audience. I really think the concept could easily become official. Thanx!
Hey, if there are any developers reading this, can you have this thread moved to General Discussion, or something more appropriate. Although this may be homebrewesque, I'd like to see the concept discussed among a wider audience. I really think the concept could easily become official. Thanx!
Flagged your post as in the wrong place. That should get them to look at it quicker. Flagging isn't necessarily a bad thing. :P
I've never flagged before, but I was wondering about that. Thanks!
Here's a few of my other Multiclass Archetypes II concepts from APG.
A mutagenic brute combines the untamed fury of the barbarian with the alchemical and mutagenic concoctions of an alchemist. She uses her bloodline powers and spells to enhance her inner fury and prowess in battle.
Primary Class: Barbarian.
Secondary Class: Alchemist.
Hit Dice: d10.
Save Bonus: +2 Reflex.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Mutagenic brutes may select three alchemist skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal barbarian class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mutagenic brutes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower).
Alchemy (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a mutagenic brute gains the alchemist’s alchemy class ability. He gains a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his mutagenic brute level on Craft (alchemy) checks, but only when brewing mutagens. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Mutagen (Su): At 2nd level, a mutagenic brute gains the alchemist’s mutagen class ability (see Mutagen in the Alchemist class entry). It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. However, the mutagenic brute can only brew one dose at any given time; otherwise the previous dose becomes inert. Upon being imbibed, the mutagen causes the mutagenic brute to grow bulkier and more bestial, granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per mutagenic brute level. In addition, while the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist takes a –2 penalty to one of his mental ability scores. The effects of mutagen stack with those of the mutagenic brute’s rage ability. This ability replaces rage power at 2nd level.
Swift Alchemy (Ex): At 5th level, a mutagenic brute gains the alchemist’s swift alchemy class ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Infuse Mutagen: At 6th level, a mutagenic brute gains the infuse mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces rage power at 6th level.
Poison Resistance (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, a mutagenic brute gains the alchemist’s poison resistance class ability and receives a +2 resistance bonus against all types of poisons. This bonus increases by +2 every six levels to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces trap sense at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.
Feral Mutagen: At 10th level, a mutagenic brute gains the feral mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces rage power at 10th level.
Greater Mutagen: At 14th level, a mutagenic brute gains the greater mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces rage power at 14th level.
Persistent Mutagen (Su): At 14th level, a mutagenic brute gains the alchemist’s persistent mutagen class ability. This ability replaces indomitable will.
Grand Mutagen: At 18th level, a mutagenic brute gains the grand mutagen alchemist discovery. This ability replaces rage power at 18th level.
A blackguard combines the evil powers and pure malevolence of an antipaladin with the stealth and deadly attacks of a rogue. He can fight in heavy armor and unleash his unholy might while striking his opponents where it most hurts.
Primary Class: Antipaladin
Secondary Class: Rogue.
Alignment: Any evil.
Hit Dice: d10.
Save Bonus: +2 Reflex.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Blackguards may select six rogue skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal antipaladin class skills. The blackguard gains a number of ranks at each level of the multiclass archetype equal to 4 + Int.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blackguards are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all armors, and with shields (except for tower).
Sneak Attack: A blackguard can make sneak attacks that deal extra damage like the rogue class ability. This extra damage is 1d6 at 4th level, and increases by 1d6 every four blackguard levels thereafter, to a maximum of 5d6 at 20th level. This ability replaces channel negative energy.
Talented Exploits (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level and every three levels thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th), a blackguard may select either a rogue talent for which he qualifies or an exploit (evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge). Whenever a blackguard chooses an exploit, each exploit serves as the prerequisite for the subsequent exploit. Thus, he must select evasion before he can select uncanny dodge and uncanny dodge before selecting improved uncanny dodge. In the case of the improved evasion talent, the archetype must have evasion to select it. A blackguard counts 1/2 his total blackguard level as his rogue level for the purpose of qualifying for rogue talents and calculating the effects of any exploit he’s chosen.
At 12th level, a blackguard may select an advanced talent in place of a talent or exploit. This ability replaces cruelty.
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the blackguard multiclass archetype: assault leader*, befuddling strike*, bleeding attack, combat trick, distracting attack*, lasting poison*, powerful sneak*, resiliency, surprise attack, swift poisoning*, weapon training. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the blackguard multiclass archetype: crippling strike, deadly cocktail*, deadly sneak*, dispelling attack, entanglement of blades*, hunter’s surprise*, improved evasion, opportunist. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
A bloodfiend unites the unholy power and dark blessings of an antipaladin with the dark bloodline powers of a sorcerer. He gains certain benefits from a magical bloodline and minor arcane spellcasting while sacrificing certain dark blessings normally granted to an unholy champion.
Primary Class: Antipaladin
Secondary Class: Sorcerer.
Alignment: Chaotic evil.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Bloodfiends may select three sorcerer skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal antipaladin class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Bloodfiends are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all armors, but not with shields.
Medium Armor (Ex): Although a bloodfiend is proficient with all types of armor, he can cast her bloodline spells or spontaneous antipaladin spells without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance only if he is wearing light, medium, or no armor. A bloodfiend wearing heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
Sorcerer Bloodline: Bloodfiends gain the sorcerer bloodline class ability, and may only choose from the following bloodlines: aberrant, abyssal, destined, draconic, infernal, protean*, serpentine*, shadow*, or undead. (*Advance Players Guide)
At 1st level, a bloodfiend adds the skill listed in his bloodline to his class skills and gains his bloodline arcana.
At 3rd level, a bloodfiend gains his first bloodline power. This ability replaces cruelty at 3rd level.
At 6th level, and every three levels thereafter, a bloodfiend learns a bloodline spell, derived from his bloodline. These spells are arcane in nature, and are in addition to the spells he casts from his antipaladin spells given on Table 2–13 of the Advanced Player’s Guide. Each of the bloodfiend’s bloodline spells may be cast spontaneously once per day without using an equivalent spell slot. These spells may also be cast additional times per day, but doing so expends an equivalent spell slot and counts against his spells per day. Casting additional bloodline spells in this manner cannot exceed his base daily spell allotment as given on Table 2–13. In addition, a bloodfiend may spontaneously cast any antipaladin spell he has prepared that day in place of his once per day bloodline spells. Doing so does not expend a spell slot, only the once per day use of that bloodline spell. Antipaladin spells used in this manner must be of equal or lower level to the once per day bloodline spell he is replacing. A bloodfiend’s caster level is equal to his bloodfiend level –3 for any bloodline spell or spontaneous antipaladin spell he casts. This ability replaces cruelty at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level.
At 8th level, a bloodfiend gains his second bloodline power. This ability replaces aura of despair.
At 17th level, a bloodfiend gains his third bloodline power. This ability replaces aura of depravity.
Heavy Armor (Ex): At 11th level, a bloodfiend can cast his bloodline spells and spontaneous antipaladin spells while wearing heavy armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. A bloodfiend using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. This ability replaces aura of vengeance.
Unholy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a bloodfiend gains DR 5/evil upon becoming a holy champion instead of the normal DR 10/evil.
Arcane fists combine the mental and physical training of a monk with the spellcasting and combat techniques of a magus. He can make multiple unarmed attacks, fall extraordinary distances, cast arcane spells and infuse weapons with arcane energies.
Primary Class: Monk.
Secondary Class: Magus.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: Arcane fists may select three magus skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal monk class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Arcane fists are proficient with the brass knuckles*, cestus*, club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear, and temple sword*. Arcane fists are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, an arcane fist loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, an arcane fist gains the ability to cast a small number of rcane spells, which are drawn from the magus spell list presented in Chapter 1 of Ultimate Magic. To learn, prepare or cast a spell, an arcane fist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an arcane fist’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the arcane fist’s Intelligence modifier. His base daily spell allotment is given on table below, and he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
An arcane fist may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the arcane fist decides which spells to prepare. Through 3rd level, an arcane fist has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his arcane fist level – 3. This ability replaces all monk bonus feats.
Spellbooks: An arcane fist must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells, and follows all other restriction pertaining to spellbooks as described in the magus class description. An arcane fist adds read magic to his 1st level spell list and may cast it without preparing it ahead of time.
Arcane Pool (Su): Beginning at 4th level, an arcane fist gains the magus arcane pool class ability, which is a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw upon to fuel his arcane powers and enhance his weapon. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his arcane fist level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once per day when the arcane prepares his spells.
At 4th level, an arcane fist can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every six levels beyond 4th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +3 at 16th level. These bonuses can be added in the same manner as described in the arcane pool entry of the Magus class (see Ultimate Magic).
At 8th level, the arcane fist can add certain weapon properties to his weapon by expending arcane points, as described in the Magus class description. The arcane fist can use his arcane pool to enhance his fists in this manner. This ability replaces ki pool.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 5th level, an arcane fist gains the magus spell combat class ability. This ability replaces high jump.
Spellstrike (Su): At 7th level, an arcane fist gains the magus spellstrike class ability. This ability replaces wholeness of body.
Improved Spell Combat (Ex): At 12th level, an arcane fist gains the magus improved spell combat class ability. This ability replaces abundant step.
Greater Spell Combat (Ex): At 19th level, an arcane fist gains the magus greater spell combat class ability. This ability replaces empty body.
ARCANE FIST SPELLS PER DAY
Spells per Day
Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st — — — —
2nd — — — —
3rd — — — —
4th 0 — — —
5th 1 — — —
6th 1 — — —
7th 1 0 — —
8th 1 1 — —
9th 2 1 — —
10th 2 1 0 —
11th 2 1 1 —
12th 2 2 1 —
13th 3 2 1 0
14th 3 2 1 1
15th 3 2 2 1
16th 3 3 2 1
17th 4 3 2 1
18th 4 3 2 2
19th 4 3 3 2
20th 4 4 3 3
I had a thought about mutliclassing and archetypes. Since multiclassing tends to result in an inability of gaining full power in any of your classes, why not use the archetype model to swap out certain class abilities in one primary class for those of a secondary class. Usually, fighters who dip in rogue are after certain features, such as sneal attack, evasion, etc.
So, I've created a bunch of Core Class multiclass archetypes, swapping class features for others in another class. I tried to keep them as close to equivalent power levels while still keeping the flavor others may be looking for. Others of course can be created, but these are the ones I came up with. Use as you wish, or don't. I remember the old 2E style of multiclassing, and wanted to keep a similar flavor, without going for full gestalt style. Could also be done with the APG classes too, but I'm not about togo and do those. I'll leave those for someone else.
Enjoy.
Multi-classing needs more attention, I agree. But this ... isn't the way to go about it, I feel. You have basically made some options available for some combinations, rather than allowing people to make custom combinations that are thematically good for their concept but do not suck.
When I multi-class, I want something that bends to my concept, not a design I have to bend my concept to fit.
Multi-classing needs more attention, I agree. But this ... isn't the way to go about it, I feel. You have basically made some options available for some combinations, rather than allowing people to make custom combinations that are thematically good for their concept but do not suck.
When I multi-class, I want something that bends to my concept, not a design I have to bend my concept to fit.
Originally, I began with a rough matrix to swap equal weighted abilities between the classes. That evolved into the multiclass archetypes concept, but it more or less follows the idea of that matrix - swapping like abilities for other like abilities.
My concept does have preconstructed archetypes, but with my new guidelines, anyone can create their own multiclass archetype, using any combination they want. If you don't like my concept, don't use it. Of course you could always go and come up with your own multiclassing idea.
What I've found, more or less, is all the abilities can be broken down to 1 point ability. I haven't worked those ALL out yet. For example, break down sneak attack to 1d6 = 1 point, 1 smiteevil/day = 1 point, 1 rogue talent = 1 point, 1d6 bomb = 1 point, etc. You see where I'm going. I had also tried it where I weighted some as 1 point (lvl 1-6) as 2 point (lvl 7-12ish), 3 point (lvl 13-17), or 4 point (lvl 18-20) abilities.
I think what you are looking for is a point buy" system where you buy abilities and custumize your "class" from 1st-20th level. That's what I had strated doing, but it became quite difficult. According to my breakdown, most classes were in the 45-50 point range. The exception, of course, was the monk (60 points) and the summoner (56 points).
I may have to go through it again, but those were the results. I may take another look at it and see if I can figure our a way to balance things. If you'd like to see my matrix as it sits currently, I can always post it to my pdf site.
I do agree, a more customizable multiclass system is what everyone would love, but its the difficulty in designing one, and keeping the process balanced.