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Golarian Global News Network (GGNN) reports that the last of the Alchemist bombs fell on the once powerful Rakshasa race today. In a historic event the Rakshasas have been defeated.
Pathfinder error or am I just not getting it? I am DMing the PF module Cult of the Ebon Destroyer/8th lv PC's. Per module they encounter a single Rak.(boosted)
- AC 31 T-18 / DR 15 g-n-p / SR 25 / 135 htpts.
The PC's have some high AC so I boosted the Rak. With large template for the extra Nat armor, htpts and str to hit (was not in the set.up). I thought the encounter might be too tough... boy was I wrong....
Group:
Ninja, fighter/hellknight, Ranger (bow focus), Barbarian and the dreaded Alchemist.
Combat: (takes place in living room 20x20 room).
Surprise rd - to my Rak. (Thanks to detect thoughts) he knew they had him in his disguised form. Hit Ninja and Barbarian for 48 (good roll/they failed st) with lightning bolt.
Round 1
Rak got good Int and goes first with a 25. Cast lightning again on Ninja and Barbarian, moves, changes to natural form(free action).
Group - Ninja moves and hits due to flank bonus 7 (Dr absorbs most of the.dmg), Barbarian takes a cure mod potion(injured prior to this encounter), Ranger hits w/arrow no dmg., Alchemist hits with 2 fire bomb 42 pts, Hellknight hits hard vital strike
14 pts after Dr.
Round 2
Rak moves lightning bolts Alchemist and ranger 22 dmg (half) they made st.
Group - Ninja misses, Barbarian moves and uses intimidating glare rage power (Rak is shaken), Ranger hits no dmg, Alchemist hits with 2 bombs (excluding all allies.near my Rak) for 52 (rolled.good 4d6 + Int 4), Hellknight vital strike crit for 25 after Dr... killing my.Rak.
The Alchemist will be the downfall of the Rakshasa, the creatures SR ( a caster would have to roll a 17 to hit with mass dam spell) is suppose.to provide him protection.against huge dmg spells. The Alchemist kicks out all that dmg with no Sr to slow him up and touch AC.
Alchemist defeats Rakshasa race.
Am I seeing this wrong?
If your post contains spoilers for a module, you need to mark it as such.
Well consider this..
You are putting up a BBG up against the entire party..
It is my experience that no matter what they die rapidly quick.. because they take the damage from all the party members. Even with DR and fast healing..
Course not much you can do about it, this is a module. But an alchemist will have a harder time doing these things if you can wear the down first.
Alchemist defeats Rakshasa race.
Are you saying the alchemist backhanded the iconic evil cat race?
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Well consider this..
You are putting up a BBG up against the entire party..
It is my experience that no matter what they die rapidly quick.. because they take the damage from all the party members. Even with DR and fast healing..
Course not much you can do about it, this is a module. But an alchemist will have a harder time doing these things if you can wear the down first.
Normally I agree with you. They were worn down (sorry if I did not make it clear), Barbarian took a.potion after first lightning bolt (he has most hit points in group) due to prior dmg.
But this was a non caster group against high AC and DR 15 they could bypass with one of their med a bow guy... my Rak should be able to last a bit longer... look at the dmg done to him minus Alchemist...? just saying the Alchemist rocked the Rak...
And the Rak rocked the party pretty hard too.
But pretty much what Karkon said.. fire immunity or high resistance to fire.... Alchemist is defeated.
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Rakashas are spell casters and there are a host of spells that protect against missiles and against fire (and other energy) damage.
Well it was the stock Rakshasa out of the book with Boost mage armor already on + Gaint template (my add). Nothing in the Rak spell list (max.3rd level spells)- almost all lightning bolts, would of prevented this. Not to mention it lasted 2 rds... lol
The Alchemist will be the downfall of the Rakshasa, the creatures SR ( a caster would have to roll a 17 to hit with mass dam spell) is suppose.to provide him protection.against huge dmg spells. The Alchemist kicks out all that dmg with no Sr to slow him up and touch AC.
Alchemist defeats Rakshasa race.
I am assuming you're referring to the Bomb class feature. To that end, you need to supply more information.
What was the APL?
What was the CR of the encounter?
What was the Alchemist's level?
How much did the bomb hit the Rakshasha for?
Looking over what you do have, this is what I see:
First, since you mention that the Rakshasha has a SR of 25 and your casters would need a 17 to hit it, I can assume that the average party level of your group is 8. This would make sense, as 8th level is when an Alchemist can select the Fast Bombs discovery, which is when you can throw multiple bombs.
Now, a Rakshasha normally has a Touch AC of 16, which is actually pretty good for such a class. At 8th level, an Alchemist has a BAB of +6/+1. Assuming a Dex modifier of at least +4, this means that the Alchemist should expect to hit the Rakshasha on a 6 or higher with his first bomb and an 11 or higher with his second bomb. Not terribly good, but not horrible either.
At 8th level, your Alchemist is looking at 4d6+Int bomb damage, for a total of 8d6+(Int x2) damage. Average roll on a d6 is 3.5, so 8 x 3.5 = 28. Since you said he has a +4 bonus, 38 damage. Your Alchemist did indeed roll extremely well for damage.
7 + 42 + 14 + 52 + 25 = 148 damage, as you said. Here's something you didn't think about; resources.
Your Alchemist can only throw up to 12 bombs each day (level 8 + Int 4). In this fight alone, the Alchemist committed 1/3 of his resources to killing your monster. That's pretty significant, to be fair. If this was the final boss of your dungeon, were you giving the Alchemist too much time in between encounters to rest? Was the Alchemist refraining from bomb usage, or would it appear he wasn't keeping track of them correctly.
Second Point: splash damage. Your party is made entirely of front-line fighters. Were you making them save against the bomb's splash damage? At that level, each character would take 8 splash damage per bomb thrown on a failed Reflex save; a respectable 4 damage on a successful save.
Third Point: You inadvertently nerfed your boss against the Alchemist by giving him a size increase; each size increase is going to impact the creature's Dex bonus, which in turn is going to reduce their Touch AC, making it easier for the boss to be hit by said bombs.
Some suggestions; plan your "big boss battles" in larger caves and dungeons were resting is a liability for your party. Make it all-too likely that they will be caught and not get the rest they desperately need. Its easier to refresh everyone's spells and bombs at the start of each session, but you're drastically handing out power to classes like the Alchemist, whose weakness is in limited uses per day. Second, although they don't seem like they would be epic encounters, never question the strength of tiny foes. Making a boss battle designed to make the Alchemist sweat while giving the advantage to another party member is a great thing. For example, your Alchemist is going to have a rough time hitting a Small creature or smaller with bombs, but a Fighter who specializes in grapple maneuvers may find the fight to be better suited to their style of playing.
Also, like you said, it seems like your players got really lucky with this boss (Alchemist had four really good bomb rolls and your Hellknight had a critical hit with Vital Strike). Luck will happen; its a DM's worst nightmare but you have to be ready for it.
Finally, don't forget that you're not out to "beat" your players, you're out to provide interesting and challenging encounters for them. Take this one as a learning experience and move on. Remember, if you want to plan an encounter that will challenge everyone, the encounter needs to have an answer for every party member :-).
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And the Rak rocked the party pretty hard too.
But pretty much what Karkon said.. fire immunity or high resistance to fire.... Alchemist is defeated.
Once again I agree but were talking PF set up not custom NPC. Rak do not have prof from E (3rd lv arcane) on their list and can't remember if they have resist E but don't recall seeing it on their list.... I assume they depend on their SR to defend again such mass dmg, but Alchemist is their weakness as I see it.
As for fire immunity not sure how the Rak would get that without raising the CR much higher?
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Alchemists bombs are really good. That said, they are the main tool of the alchemist. When they work they are fine, even potent. When they can't be used they severly gimp the alchemist.
As pointed out above, average damage is 28. A paladin with smite up in a similar situation with power attack and a 2 handed weapon would add +9 dmg from PA and +8 from level, so an additional 17 hp through damage reduction. It depends how the pally was stated up but could be pulling +6 strength damage, a +1 magical weapon enhanced from bonded weapon (possibly flaming). Thats 24hp damage plus the weapon damage (2d6), plus flaming (1d6) for an average of 34 damage per hit, through DR.
I grant you AC 31 is hard to hit however, but thats the alchemists main advantage. At least the alchemists attack is typed pretty common, unlike the old 3.5 warlock...
We had an alchemist total a treant very quickly (vulnerable to fire). There is a creature immune to fire comming up in the next session. Will be interesting to see how it pans out...
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I am assuming you're referring to the Bomb class feature. To that end, you need to supply more information.
What was the APL?
What was the CR of the encounter?
What was the Alchemist's level?
How much did the bomb hit the Rakshasha for?Looking over what you do have, this is what I see:
First, since you mention that the Rakshasha has a SR of 25 and your casters would need a 17 to hit it, I can assume that the average party level of your group is 8. This would make sense, as 8th level is when an Alchemist can select the Fast Bombs discovery, which is when you can throw multiple bombs.
Now, a Rakshasha normally has a Touch AC of 16, which is actually pretty good for such a class. At 8th level, an Alchemist has a BAB of +6/+1. Assuming a Dex modifier of at least +4, this means that the Alchemist should expect to hit the Rakshasha on a 6 or higher with his first bomb and an 11 or higher with his second bomb. Not terribly good, but not horrible either.
At 8th level, your Alchemist is looking at 4d6+Int bomb damage, for a total of 8d6+(Int x2) damage. Average roll on a d6 is 3.5, so 8 x 3.5 = 28. Since you said he has a +4 bonus, 38 damage. Your Alchemist did indeed roll extremely well for damage.
7 + 42 + 14 + 52 + 25 = 148 damage, as you said. Here's something you didn't think about; resources.
Your Alchemist can only throw up to 12 bombs each day (level 8 + Int 4). In this fight alone, the Alchemist committed 1/3 of his resources to killing your monster. That's pretty significant, to be fair. If this was the final boss of your dungeon, were you giving the Alchemist too much time in between encounters to rest? Was the Alchemist refraining from bomb usage, or...
First this is a PF module, not my set up... PC investigation picked the confrontation spot.
APL was listed above - lv 8.CR 11 encounter
Alchemist lv 8 (same as group)
--- his bomb dmg listed in original post
Last battle of day... Alchemist did not spend a lot of resources due to large melee contingent in group.
Been DMing many years I know I am not out to "beat" my PC's. Lol. If this post came out sounding like I was complaining it was not suppose to and I apologize if it did. I was trying to point out maybe a fundamental flaw in the power of mass dmg Alchemy w/ touch AC and no SR vs. A classic and well loved NPC that is suppose to be scarey to caster and meleers alike.
It just struck me as a problem... is all, it just my opinion.
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Also if it had taken that much damage it may just turn invisible and either leave and learn from the situation or focus on the alchemist in melee. Don't know the moduel though so not sure how motivated it would be but having taken almost half hits in the first round its not looking good for it in this combat...
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Alchemists bombs are really good. That said, they are the main tool of the alchemist. When they work they are fine, even potent. When they can't be used they severly gimp the alchemist.
As pointed out above, average damage is 28. A paladin with smite up in a similar situation with power attack and a 2 handed weapon would add +9 dmg from PA and +8 from level, so an additional 17 hp through damage reduction. It depends how the pally was stated up but could be pulling +6 strength damage, a +1 magical weapon enhanced from bonded weapon (possibly flaming). Thats 24hp damage plus the weapon damage (2d6), plus flaming (1d6) for an average of 34 damage per hit, through DR.
I grant you AC 31 is hard to hit however, but thats the alchemists main advantage. At least the alchemists attack is typed pretty common, unlike the old 3.5 warlock...
We had an alchemist total a treant very quickly (vulnerable to fire). There is a creature immune to fire comming up in the next session. Will be interesting to see how it pans out...
Alchemist was certainly an encounter changer here. I have seen so many good catches on these boards and thought I might have stumbled onto one... a loop missed... lol.
Yeah Treant vs Alchemist... sorry but I am sure Going to miss that Tree guy (bad close quote from futurama DnD movie).lol|
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Also if it had taken that much damage it may just turn invisible and either leave and learn from the situation or focus on the alchemist in melee. Don't know the moduel though so not sure how motivated it would be but having taken almost half hits in the first round its not looking good for it in this combat...
I did focus My next attack on Alchemist w/lighting bolt (good roll) but he made save only took 22 dmg and could not close to melee would of taken AO's from Ninja, Barbarian and hellknight.
Module said he fights to death.
Alchemist had precise bomb no splash dmg to 4 squares... no friendly fire
So he spent one of his limited resources that provides no benefit to him, and only to help out his teammates. How noble of him!
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It doesn't have to be an alchemist in this situation.
In ROTRL the Runelord Karzoug was down in 2 characters. Our bow weilding Rogue and our arcane archer chucked him for 7 arrows and over 400 points of damage before anyone else went.
I was playing an alchemist and was only REALLY effective against the giants. (well I was using force bombs)
This is one reason I don't bother with pregenerated adventures anymore.
However, having said that, I used to use them lo many years ago.
It is vital when you pick up an AP that you close your eyes and repeat this mantra...
Must adapt for my unique group...
Must adapt for my unique group...
Must adapt for my unique group...
Remember, a module writer is writing for the average, not your group. Your group could be better or worse than the average. In the above example, the Rakshasa had no fire resistance in the pregenerated spells. Things like Spells should always be customized for your group. Energy Resistance is a good utility spell all spellcasters should keep around, either on a scroll or memorized. It sounds like you had five players, that makes the CR slightly off, a good way to adjust it is to put in a CR-2 henchman or two CR-3 henchmen for the BBEG.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I don't see a player using his or her primary class ability to take out a foe as a bad thing; it lets the PC be good at what he's meant to be good at. Sure, fights can be more fun when they last longer than a round or two, but the rakshasa in CotED isn't meant to be a BBEG. He's one of three foes the PCs face during their investigation, and is a solo monster. As a magic-dependent class, that means he's on the low end of the CR scale for his level when faced alone. It's just how it goes sometimes.
In the end, your party expended resources to defeat him, and it sounds like they used about what they should have for a hard encounter (APL +2). While the changes you made to him technically increased his CR to 11, the giant template isn't a huge buff for a magic dependent monster, and again, a solo monster of even 3 CR levels higher than the PCs isn't going to actually be an epic encounter.
So, long story long, the encounter you've described isn't a mistake with the adventure. It was simply a 2-round fight. I hope the later encounters with more foes, or more challenging solo foes will be a bit more of a struggle for your players, in any case.
Round 1
Rak got good Int and goes first with a 25. Cast lightning again on Ninja and Barbarian, moves, changes to natural form(free action).
Group - Ninja moves and hits due to flank bonus 7 (Dr absorbs most of the.dmg), Barbarian takes a cure mod potion(injured prior to this encounter), Ranger hits w/arrow no dmg., Alchemist hits with 2 fire bomb 42 pts, Hellknight hits hard vital strike
14 pts after Dr.Round 2
Rak moves lightning bolts
Hold it right there!
Nononono, that's not good. You're a Rakshasa, not some spell-happy demon brute. No, strike that, even the demons usually don't stop thinking in a fight.
This guy tosses two bombs in your face and you think you'll see if you can play spell-chicken with him?
That's just no good. The invisibility idea from further up was okay, but there are others. You could start by telling the alchemist that his barbarian friend bets 1000gp that he can totally survive being hit in the head with all your bombs, or that he's so great and powerful that he won't need those bombs, or something else that's really nasty for him. Those juicers have horrible will saves, your powers of suggestion (the other spell of the highest level you have) have a really good chance of working on the sucker.
If that fails, make use of your freakish size - move right next to him. Whenever he tosses around a bomb, he'll provoke an attack of opportunity!
Heck you made him large against a party that goes for touch AC -- there is part of your problem.
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Heck you made him large against a party that goes for touch AC -- there is part of your problem.
The -2 AC for large / Dex pen would make no diff in the combat w/Alchemist. The only touch PC was the Alchemist, the rest were regular so the NA offset this and would of allowed him to hit the Ninja and Hellknight large AC's.
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Round 1
Rak got good Int and goes first with a 25. Cast lightning again on Ninja and Barbarian, moves, changes to natural form(free action).
Group - Ninja moves and hits due to flank bonus 7 (Dr absorbs most of the.dmg), Barbarian takes a cure mod potion(injured prior to this encounter), Ranger hits w/arrow no dmg., Alchemist hits with 2 fire bomb 42 pts, Hellknight hits hard vital strike
14 pts after Dr.Round 2
Rak moves lightning boltsHold it right there!
Nononono, that's not good. You're a Rakshasa, not some spell-happy demon brute. No, strike that, even the demons usually don't stop thinking in a fight.
This guy tosses two bombs in your face and you think you'll see if you can play spell-chicken with him?
That's just no good. The invisibility idea from further up was okay, but there are others. You could start by telling the alchemist that his barbarian friend bets 1000gp that he can totally survive being hit in the head with all your bombs, or that he's so great and powerful that he won't need those bombs, or something else that's really nasty for him. Those juicers have horrible will saves, your powers of suggestion (the other spell of the highest level you have) have a really good chance of working on the sucker.
If that fails, make use of your freakish size - move right next to him. Whenever he tosses around a bomb, he'll provoke an attack of opportunity!
Suggestion, good call. Alchemist was hurt from prior encounter was hoping lighting would make him retreat maybe use a round for a potion, but his atlas the poor Raksasha will be missed by his evil cohorts.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Eh, it happens.
We were playing a Strike Force Zero (WoD) game once, and the ST let me build a MOSPEDA (38-lite) for my character's gear. I got chopped up by small arms fire, while the big bad villian Kuei Jin got dropped in one round with an incredibly lucky shot from another agent's gun.
*shrug* Did the players enjoy it? Then everyone won.
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The -2 AC for large / Dex pen would make no diff in the combat w/Alchemist. The only touch PC was the Alchemist, the rest were regular so the NA offset this and would of allowed him to hit the Ninja and Hellknight large AC's.And how many times did you consider making melee attacks with him?
You took a caster and gave him benefits for a fighter. Then you played him as a pure caster and wondered why your benefits didn't help?
Rakshasas are tricksters and not thugs. If you play one as a thug you're not going to get the best from him, especially if you don't build him as a thug.
Change his spell selection to match what a melee fighter would want, equip him with a proper weapon & feats then fight with him rather than sling spells.
Karate 'so-so = **splat** middle of road'...
On the PC side you gave an encounter that favored the alchemist and he got to shine. That's all great. Why are you complaining?
-James
James its obvious you did not read the entire thread. Not been on these boards but I take my time to answer people please show others the same courtesy. Thanks.
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Eh, it happens.
We were playing a Strike Force Zero (WoD) game once, and the ST let me build a MOSPEDA (38-lite) for my character's gear. I got chopped up by small arms fire, while the big bad villian Kuei Jin got dropped in one round with an incredibly lucky shot from another agent's gun.
*shrug* Did the players enjoy it? Then everyone won.
We sure did have fun.... I just imagine Alchemist dropping down from their Gnome airships with mutagen melee guys protecting bombers wiping the ancient Raksasha race.... hey I feel an adventure idea coming on. Thanks for the positive post.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I do not see how james maissen fails in his response to you, WhipShire (and I know him for reading carefully and giving sound advice/opinion).
And the point a couple of people already mentioned is still valid:
you started changing the Rakshasa, "optimizing" it for melee, while it is a rather spell-oriented/based monster and did not custimize it all the way down to its spell selection (i. e. giving it resist against energy or a similar spell).
So you took into account one part of your group, leaving the rest out of your consideration.
Logical consequence: annihilation of the monster by the party member(s) you overlooked. *shrugs*
That said, as long as you and your group had fun - that's what's it all about (and the next Rakshasa you set up as a villain against your group will be better prepared, I have no doubt!).
Ruyan.
Heck you made him large against a party that goes for touch AC -- there is part of your problem.The -2 AC for large / Dex pen would make no diff in the combat w/Alchemist. The only touch PC was the Alchemist, the rest were regular so the NA offset this and would of allowed him to hit the Ninja and Hellknight large AC's.
Seems to have made enough of a difference for this guy. Honestly large isn't the way to go -- more opponents is the way to go -- and smarter tactics.
hmmm i really cant see the problem here.
If we take a look at the alchemist, and assumes he has +10/+5 to hit, as in one of the previous posts. Then even with the Rakshasa that is now large and a 14 touch ac, he will need a 4 and then a 9 to hit. That gives the alchemist an average damage against that guy of
0.85*18+0.6*18+0.05*0.85*14+0.05*0.6*14 = 27.2
and that is when using two bombs in one round.
Your alchemist got lucky and hit with all 4 bombs, doing 47 damage a round. That means almost doubble the expected damage, and not something overly likely to happen. To put it a bit more in perspective, during the 2 rounds he rolled 16d6+16 damage for 94 total damage, that equals out to an average of 4.875 per D6, something quite unlikely.
So what im trying to say is that your alchemist got lucky, very lucky. And several other classes with equal amounts of luck would be just as nasty. That being said without your large template, he would have had an average damage of 23.375 damage, not really that fantastic.
Two words:
Wind Wall
Makes Alchemists VERY VERY sad. Archers too.
For an 8th level caster-critter, it's a damned cheap scroll. And his lightning bolt will go right through it without a problem.
Plus, charm person in the surprise round on the Alchemist turns this from a "5 characters beat on the monster..." to "Four melee characters have to fight the monster and the alchemist..."
to describe what i meant before with the alchemist being quite lucky, the probability of the alchemist doing 94 or more damage over 2 rounds, is about 1.9 % when he has to attack the 14 touch ac, it gets reduced to 1.1 % if we are targeting the 16 touch ac. (this is including the chance to crit ofcourse)
So rest assured stuff like this wont happen that often.
Just for the mathematicians in here, the probability was determined by doing 200.000 simulations of 2 rounds of damage each, and then the simulations with greater or equal damage than 94 was counted, and the probability of the outcome determined. Hurray for the statisticians with nothing to do.
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If you really wanted to make him harder you should've given him the fiendish or advanced template and then used his change shape ability to become a halfling/gnome and get +2 touch AC. Then you would've melee-ed the alchemist until he went down, using combat expertise along the way. Assuming that he was a smart Rakshasa and cast shield as the PCs went into his home, he'd be sporting 38 AC and 21 touch AC at this point. More than enough that the remainder of the party members shouldn't be able to hit him, and he'd eventually corner the alchemist so he couldn't throw.
I agree that it was a short fight, but you did play the Rakshasa as a pure caster when he wasn't built that way. Also the Alchemist in particular is potent against creatures with DR and SR.
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Greetings, fellow travellers.
I do not see how james maissen fails in his response to you, WhipShire (and I know him for reading carefully and giving sound advice/opinion).
And the point a couple of people already mentioned is still valid:
you started changing the Rakshasa, "optimizing" it for melee, while it is a rather spell-oriented/based monster and did not custimize it all the way down to its spell selection (i. e. giving it resist against energy or a similar spell).
So you took into account one part of your group, leaving the rest out of your consideration.
Logical consequence: annihilation of the monster by the party member(s) you overlooked. *shrugs*
That said, as long as you and your group had fun - that's what's it all about (and the next Rakshasa you set up as a villain against your group will be better prepared, I have no doubt!).
Ruyan.
It was structured. Could not adapt from the module. Battle took place when and where the PC discovered enough clues. If you read above like you said you did you would know I did not set him up... not my build or location. yes I know you can varies these things but PF Modules are very rail roadish.
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I do share the OP's concern to a small extent: the Rakshasha is meant to be very resilient, fiendishly so, and to be difficult to damage except by a prepared party (traditionally, one with a blessed crossbow bolt: in these days, any good + piercing). The alchemist (and definitely one with rapid bombs and rapid shot) can deal a very signifigant chunk of non-magical-but-really-magical damage in a short time, so he actually does trivialize this situation.
One points out:
-The Rak. could have thrown charm person at the wielder of the horrible techno-magical fire. He could have done this with his surprise round.
-The Rak. spells are IIRC suggested one- they are supposed to be played as spellcasters, essentially, so he could have had access to displacement, or blur, or invisibility, or flight.
-The Rak. is also vulnerable to a caster who is good at piercing SR, or simply one who prepares some of the SR: no spells. The second category isn't as rich in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5, but such spells do still exist.
-The Rak. could shield himself versus energy as well.Overall, this doesn't sound like an issue with the Alchemist- it sounds like you, the DM, are surprised by the strength of the alchemist in this particular niche (that his generally low damage bombs can become a real force because they are friggin bombs and not much defends against them).
My only concern with the alchemist is his ability to nova. Even then, I don't think it compares to high level casters pushing the same trickery.
I agree with suggestion and charm route. His prepared time and what he had on him was set by where the PC caught him. I was just thought it was a loop hole i found... no complaining on my part. Alchemist can take a stock Rak down was the only point i was making... lol
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Seems to have made enough of a difference for this guy. Honestly large isn't the way to go -- more opponents is the way to go -- and smarter tactics.Heck you made him large against a party that goes for touch AC -- there is part of your problem.The -2 AC for large / Dex pen would make no diff in the combat w/Alchemist. The only touch PC was the Alchemist, the rest were regular so the NA offset this and would of allowed him to hit the Ninja and Hellknight large AC's.
It was a PF module was not set up that way. I do appreciate all the advice but i fully understand how it could of been different. Thanks.
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hmmm i really cant see the problem here.
If we take a look at the alchemist, and assumes he has +10/+5 to hit, as in one of the previous posts. Then even with the Rakshasa that is now large and a 14 touch ac, he will need a 4 and then a 9 to hit. That gives the alchemist an average damage against that guy of
0.85*18+0.6*18+0.05*0.85*14+0.05*0.6*14 = 27.2
and that is when using two bombs in one round.
Your alchemist got lucky and hit with all 4 bombs, doing 47 damage a round. That means almost doubble the expected damage, and not something overly likely to happen. To put it a bit more in perspective, during the 2 rounds he rolled 16d6+16 damage for 94 total damage, that equals out to an average of 4.875 per D6, something quite unlikely.
So what im trying to say is that your alchemist got lucky, very lucky. And several other classes with equal amounts of luck would be just as nasty. That being said without your large template, he would have had an average damage of 23.375 damage, not really that fantastic.
I agree he did get lucky. The rolls were true we open roll and hes never very lucky...so for him to take the BBEG down was awesome as he usually never does... mostly flavor characters for him.
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If you really wanted to make him harder you should've given him the fiendish or advanced template and then used his change shape ability to become a halfling/gnome and get +2 touch AC. Then you would've melee-ed the alchemist until he went down, using combat expertise along the way. Assuming that he was a smart Rakshasa and cast shield as the PCs went into his home, he'd be sporting 38 AC and 21 touch AC at this point. More than enough that the remainder of the party members shouldn't be able to hit him, and he'd eventually corner the alchemist so he couldn't throw.
I agree that it was a short fight, but you did play the Rakshasa as a pure caster when he wasn't built that way. Also the Alchemist in particular is potent against creatures with DR and SR.
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True. It was an on the fly change as not built into the module and was easier for me to modify as i knew the Gaint Template well. Fiendish would of been a better route. Good call.
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Your alchemist got lucky and hit with all 4 bombs, doing 47 damage a round. That means almost doubble the expected damage, and not something overly likely to happen. To put it a bit more in perspective, during the 2 rounds he rolled 16d6+16 damage for 94 total damage, that equals out to an average of 4.875 per D6, something quite unlikely.
Yeah... the damage numbers seemed a bit high to me too. Not ridiculously so though, I've had those days.
Some characters are just particularly effective against certain types of enemies. That same alchemist is likely pretty frustrated when he encounters a demon with resistance to acid, cold, and fire, a common encounter at higher levels.
Eighth level is a bit of a sweet spot for the alchemist. Seventh is far less pleasant with only one bomb per round :(
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Your alchemist got lucky and hit with all 4 bombs, doing 47 damage a round. That means almost doubble the expected damage, and not something overly likely to happen. To put it a bit more in perspective, during the 2 rounds he rolled 16d6+16 damage for 94 total damage, that equals out to an average of 4.875 per D6, something quite unlikely.Yeah... the damage numbers seemed a bit high to me too. Not ridiculously so though, I've had those days.
Some characters are just particularly effective against certain types of enemies. That same alchemist is likely pretty frustrated when he encounters a demon with resistance to acid, cold, and fire, a common encounter at higher levels.
Eighth level is a bit of a sweet spot for the alchemist. Seventh is far less pleasant with only one bomb per round :(
Yes... i did realise that afterwards... he power level went up a bit. never played one in our group before so was a first experience...
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True. It was an on the fly change as not built into the module and was easier for me to modify as i knew the Gaint Template well. Fiendish would of been a better route. Good call.
The temptation to alter modules 'on-the-fly' to counter specific characters should generally be resisted. I would suggest a nice generic buff would be the advanced template.
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True. It was an on the fly change as not built into the module and was easier for me to modify as i knew the Gaint Template well. Fiendish would of been a better route. Good call.The temptation to alter modules 'on-the-fly' to counter specific characters should generally be resisted. I would suggest a nice generic buff would be the advanced template.
True. The groups battle before this encounter my NPC had a had time hitting the Ninja and Hellknight. I just went with what i knew as the str and extra hit points would not hurt. He had buffs from the module on him at the time already (pre set).
I like to point out this is my first preset module. I usually do my own worlds but the group really wanted to do this one and i took my time and did my homework but as someone said above... modules are made for average characters...
The silk Mill encounter after that (stock- I did not change a bit) left all of them down and unconscious except for the Ninja who reduced the Boss NPC to less than 25% hit point at which time he fled and the wounded Ninja let him go. So that stock encounter went different... tough to balance these modules.
The one thing I keep seeing over and over again is, "It's a module; I can't alter it." The thing is, though, that there are many different tactics that were presented that could have been done differently that would have severely hampered the Alchemist. I think the morale of the story is that the Alchemist is not broken and can, in fact, be shut down rather easily (Protection from Energy, Wind Wall, Will saves in general).
Now that you know this, take it with you on the next adventure that you prepare.
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The one thing I keep seeing over and over again is, "It's a module; I can't alter it." The thing is, though, that there are many different tactics that were presented that could have been done differently that would have severely hampered the Alchemist. I think the morale of the story is that the Alchemist is not broken and can, in fact, be shut down rather easily (Protection from Energy, Wind Wall, Will saves in general).
Now that you know this, take it with you on the next adventure that you prepare.
Thanks. I did not say the Alchemist was broken (far from it) just that he is excellent against the PF BBEG Raksasha (book none altered/homebrew Rak) who is suppose to be scarey to Melee and casters alike. A weak point... that i wanted to point out.
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I truly appreciate all the advice. It was a simple post on how the Alchemist can unbalance a creature made to fight against such classes. I was not complaining and wanted to follow the module to see if it could keep up with a homebrew game. So far its 50-50 handling it. Seem the topic been covered. Feel free to talk more on it if you like but i gotten out of the post what i wanted.
Thanks.
Whip
I truly appreciate all the advice. It was a simple post on how the Alchemist can unbalance a creature made to fight against such classes. I was not complaining and wanted to follow the module to see if it could keep up with a homebrew game. So far its 50-50 handling it. Seem the topic been covered. Feel free to talk more on it if you like but i gotten out of the post what i wanted.
Thanks.
Whip
Hey Whip,
Glad to see that CotED is mostly keeping up with your PCs. I tried to design it for a group of typical power level. I hope that the later encounters give your players a run for their money. The Alchemist/Rakshasa thing happened to one of my playtest groups as well.
Matt Goodall