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I did forget Spontaneous Metafocus, and it is nice (and needed) for Sorcerers... but it's hardly a Sorcerer-unique thing - any character who can spontaneously cast spells can take it including (of course) the Wizard with Greater Spell Specialization...
But compare Spontaneous Metafocus and Greater Spell Specialization for a moment: with Spontaneous Metafocus you have to pick one spell for the Feat which you then can't change... ever... With Greater Spell Specialization the spell you can spontaneously cast can change every time you gain an even level in your spellcasting class - so Greater Spell Specialization is guaranteed to remain useful your entire casting career, while Spontaneous Metafocus will be eating Feats like they're going out of fashion if you want to maintain the ability to Metamagic your best spells quickly as you level. The boost of the Sorcerer-friendly Feat once more lags behind the boost of the Wizard-friendly Feat.
While a Sorcerer with 13 Int of more can benefit from Spell Specialization, no Sorcerer benefits from Greater Spell Specialization. A spontaneous caster with 13 or more Charisma, such a a Wizard with Greater Spell Specialization, can benefit from Spontaneous Metafocus, but where's the 'Greater' version of the Feat to put a cherry on top for the poor Sorcerer..? Maybe something like a Feat which allows you to swap which spell you can use with Spontaneous Metafocus when you change your 'spells known'?
UM Feats
Create Sanguine Elixir (Sorcerer)
Eldritch Heritage (Both)
Improved Eldritch Heritage (Both)*
Greater Eldritch Heritage (Sorcerer)
Evolved Familiar (Wizard)
Extra Cantrips or Orisons (Sorcerer)
Skeleton Summoner (Both)
Sorcerous Bloodstrike (Sorcerer)
Spell Bluff (Both)
Spell Specialization (Both)
Spontaneous Metafocus (Sorcerer)
Greater Spell Specialization (Wizard)
Superior Summoning (Both)*
Uncanny Concentration (Both)
Undead Master (Both)@
* Advantage Sorcerer
@ Advantage Wizard
Looking over the feats in UM for wizards and sorcerers It seems that Sorcerer comes out on top feat wise though you might not agree with my selections which is fine. Even if you don't its hard to say that the Sorcerer is not getting attention.
With Undead master I gave the advantage to wizard because it screams necromancy school. Improved Eldritch heritage I gave the advantage to Sorcerer because 15 in charisma is doable but a significant investment. finally I gave Superior Summoning to Sorcerer because there are several blood lines that add extras to summoning spells.
One thing I would like to point out is that feats like greater spell specialization, Evolved familiar isn't exclusive to wizards. Despite the claim that they get everything both of these feats are equally at home with a witch or a Magus. However Create Sanguine Elixir and Sorcerous Bloodstrike seem pretty exclusive to sorcerers. I don't begrudge them this it makes sense for the class.
Don't sell the Sorcerer short they are the only spontaneous arcane caster class that can use 9th level spells. That is pretty unique nitch.
Never-mind that there is only 2 spontaneous arcane casters..
Bloodline spells - While they occasionally give access to a spell that a wizard couldn't.. Too often they give sorcerers spells straight from the sorc/wizard list.
The chain does dip into the bloodline. It does not provide all of the abilities of the bloodline and it does so at a steep cost. with the requirement of 13, 15, and 17 charisma respectively. I mainly see this chain of feats supporting the Sorcerer and other spontaneous casters.
A bit of a steep cost.. if you don't use cha for sure.
And while it doesn't provide all the benefits, it provides enough of them.
I detect the Rashaka would be one of those bloodlines you would pick up with the spell, especially as these new ninja classes. Being able to gain a +5 to bluff and break zone of truth? Pretty damn good in a campaign you know is going to use it.
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Let's see...
UM Feats
Create Sanguine Elixir (Sorcerer only... and very weak)
Eldritch Heritage (anyone)
Improved Eldritch Heritage (anyone)
Greater Eldritch Heritage (anyone)
Evolved Familiar (anyone with a familiar)
Extra Cantrips or Orisons (completely pointless, as Expanded Arcana from the APG already lets you do this)
Skeleton Summoner (Both)
Sorcerous Bloodstrike (anyone with a Bloodline power)
Spell Bluff (Both)
Spell Specialization (Both)
Spontaneous Metafocus (anyone who can spontaneously cast spells)
Greater Spell Specialization (anyone who prepares spells)
Superior Summoning (Both)
Uncanny Concentration (Both)
Undead Master (Both)
... so only the one unique Sorcerer Feat, and it's just so bad...
The thing is, some of these Feats would have been more pro-Sorcerer... if other Feats in UM hadn't given spontaneous casting and Bloodline powers to any Tom, Dick, or Harriet. Even stuff like Greater Eldritch Heritage is pretty freely available to your average level 17 Wizard who bothered to take the first Eldritch Heritage Feat: 13 to 17 Charisma is just a 4 point jump, and those Headbands of Mental Prowess or Mental Superiority are far from impossible to aquire with the 410,000gp average wealth-by-level you'll have at level 17. Sure, the Sorcerer can take the Eldritch Heritage Feats too, but where's the corrisponding Feat tree allowing the high Int Sorcerer to acquire all the Wizard's tricks? Or the tricks of any other class for that matter? I can think of plenty of Sorcerer builds who'd quite like to grab some, for example, Sneak Attack at the cost of a high Dex prerequisite and a couple of Feats... Or even the ability to prepare spells, so that they can use Pearls of Power... But no, only the Sorcerer has had everything which makes him special handed out to all and sundry like so much candy...
... Just sayin', is all... ;)
Phantom: This is a serious thread. I feel that it would even the playing field, so to speak. Maybe you don't agree, and that's fine. But the dev's do pay attention to threads like this, and I can only hope they take heed.
Yes, individual spells can be designed at the tabel, but that ins't the same as the designers of the game showing the sorcerer some uniqueness in the spell department.So yeah, not a joke thread, and not meant to offend.
Not offended... just confused.
See we're obviously coming from different viewpoints. I'm playing in a group with 2 sorcerers right now, My infernal and a friends 'undead' bloodline. they're as different as night and day... So the argument that they don't have enough options to make them unique is hard to wrap my head around....
Between your complaining abotu the two spells that wizards got that sorcerers have no use for... it reminds me when my little sister used to scream to get something... NOT because she wanted something I had... but because 'I' Had it.
The spells are completely useless to sorceres. its just the 'wizards only' tag that seems to have fueled the whole thread. If they made an eratta to it, I'd recommend pulling that line right out. If sorcerers want it, go for it. It's a waste... but that's your call...
I'd also point out that I'm coming from 2E where we had "Divine' Spells... and 'Arcane' spells.. Every class out there didn't get their own list. It seems a bit weird to me, and Sorcerers and Wizards sharing the same spells seems right an proper to me.
even if the stuff they do is natural, doesn't mean it should be 'beyond' a wizards understanding... they should be able to research and access anything involving arcane magic.
If anything arcane is suppose to be within a wizards understanding, why are wizards unable to cast cure spells? Bard and Witches can. Summoner can sort of, but only in regards to their pet.
And if you are a follower of a certian god, you can gain a 3rd level spell that allows you to cast any spell 3rd level or lower, spontaneously, provided it is in your spell book without using up another spell slot. (Only use the slot from casting the spell that allows you to do this.)
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If anything arcane is suppose to be within a wizards understanding, why are wizards unable to cast cure spells? Bard and Witches can. Summoner can sort of, but only in regards to their pet.
And if you are a follower of a certian god, you can gain a 3rd level spell that allows you to cast any spell 3rd level or lower, spontaneously, provided it is in your spell book without using up another spell slot. (Only use the slot from casting the spell that allows you to do this.)
Because the magic system was thrown in into the 3.x mechanics with no planor design theory. To be honest the ENTIRE magic system needs a reboot.
To me it doesn't matter one way or the other if Socerers get unique spells as there really is no such thing. Want a wizard to cast Cure spells? Research it. There's no such thing as a "unique" spell.
And with Patfinder the sorcerers niche shifted from spells to bloodline powers. After all the sorcerer DOES have spells. The fighter has none. Is that fair? Yes because that is his niche.
Just design some sorcerer only spells. Wizards get them. Druids get them. Clerics get them. ...
Actually to my knowledge and brief scan through the spell lists, there are not unique cleric only spells. The cleric and oracle share the same spell list in the same way that the sorcerer and wizard share their own.
In addition, the oracle gets a few unique spells in Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic.
it reminds me when my little sister used to scream to get something... NOT because she wanted something I had... but because 'I' Had it.
This, right here, is why my posts often get snarky and/or mean. So because I found what I consider a design flaw, and voiced it, I'm basically a little girl whining because big brother wizard has a toy I don't have?
Thanks for that. I'm done with you. Agree or disagree, but don't insult me.
Just design some sorcerer only spells. Wizards get them. Druids get them. Clerics get them. ...Actually to my knowledge and brief scan through the spell lists, there are not unique cleric only spells. The cleric and oracle share the same spell list in the same way that the sorcerer and wizard share their own.
In addition, the oracle gets a few unique spells in Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic.
You're right. The few cleric only spells I found where in the players handbook, and they were cleric only because the oracle didn't exist at that point.
it reminds me when my little sister used to scream to get something... NOT because she wanted something I had... but because 'I' Had it.
This, right here, is why my posts often get snarky and/or mean. So because I found what I consider a design flaw, and voiced it, I'm basically a little girl whining because big brother wizard has a toy I don't have?
Thanks for that. I'm done with you. Agree or disagree, but don't insult me.
Sorry if you found that insulting... it's just the first thing that came into my mind reading the thread. It's why I asked if it was a 'serious' thread or not...
The rampant complaining because Sorcerers didn't get something that they couldn't use... and the 'hand waving' of anything that sorcerers could do that wizards could not, sent mixed signals.
It REALLY did seem like family conflicts we had when we were young...
The fact that you don't like Sorcerers is really just icing on the cake. Even if there were 3... 4... even 10 spells that were ONLY sorcerer allowed... I don't think that would make you love a class you currently hate.
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Interestingly (or not, YMMV...) the whole 'Sorcerers get Bloodline powers' bit was a reasonable argument for their uniqueness... until Ultimate Magic gave those powers to anybody who wanted them, via the Eldritch Heritage Feat chain. If there's a similar Feat chain to, for example, pick up Wizard School powers then I seem to have missed it... ;)
Yes, because a feat that give a first level bloodline power at the cost of 2 feats (and the 2 further powers at the cost of 1 feat each one, with a high charisma prerequisite) has broken the sorcerer, especially when paragraphed to the wizard that probably be the last guy to chose that feat tree.
Be serious please. It that is your honest opinion you should start a parallel campaign about removing the Arcane bloodline as it infringe on the wizard powers.I did forget Spontaneous Metafocus, and it is nice (and needed) for Sorcerers... but it's hardly a Sorcerer-unique thing - any character who can spontaneously cast spells can take it including (of course) the Wizard with Greater Spell Specialization...
But compare Spontaneous Metafocus and Greater Spell Specialization for a moment: with Spontaneous Metafocus you have to pick one spell for the Feat which you then can't change... ever... With Greater Spell Specialization the spell you can spontaneously cast can change every time you gain an even level in your spellcasting class - so Greater Spell Specialization is guaranteed to remain useful your entire casting career, while Spontaneous Metafocus will be eating Feats like they're going out of fashion if you want to maintain the ability to Metamagic your best spells quickly as you level. The boost of the Sorcerer-friendly Feat once more lags behind the boost of the Wizard-friendly Feat.
While a Sorcerer with 13 Int of more can benefit from Spell Specialization, no Sorcerer benefits from Greater Spell Specialization. A spontaneous caster with 13 or more Charisma, such a a Wizard with Greater Spell Specialization, can benefit from Spontaneous Metafocus, but where's the 'Greater' version of the Feat to put a cherry on top for the poor Sorcerer..? Maybe something like a Feat which allows you to swap which spell you can use with Spontaneous Metafocus when you change your 'spells known'?
Spontaneous Metafocus
You can focus to combine one of your known spells and metamagic feats.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, one metamagic feat, able to spontaneously cast spells.
Notice that spells, plural. Learning 1 spell that you can spontaneously cast don't satisfy that prerequisite. I would rule that you need to have the ability to cast spontaneus spells as a class feature but that is ROI.
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Yes, because a feat that give a first level bloodline power at the cost of 2 feats (and the 2 further powers at the cost of 1 feat each one, with a high charisma prerequisite) has broken the sorcerer, especially when paragraphed to the wizard that probably be the last guy to chose that feat tree.
Be serious please. It that is your honest opinion you should start a parallel campaign about removing the Arcane bloodline as it infringe on the wizard powers.
The point is really that a Wizard (for example) can now choose to have most of what the Sorcerer had in terms of unique abilities as well as everything he normally gets as a Wizard, whereas the Sorcerer gets no such choices.
The Charisma prerequisites on the Eldritch Heritage Feats aren't really as high as they seem. Starting with a 13 Charisma is perfectly viable for a Wizard who has nothing by Intelligence to worry about. By the time he hits the levels where he can qualify for Improved and Great Eldritch Heritage he'll already be into magic headband territory, so it's just down to spending some gold to make the thing cover Charisma as well as Intelligence. Far from being the last to take the Eldritch Heritage Feat tree, your average Wizard is actually in a good place to do so - it's those MAD melee characters who aren't so well placed, with the Bard and Paladin types who are better placed.
The concept of Bloodlines was an awesome one which Paizo implimented very well (IMHO) - they made the Sorcerer unique and interesting, and gave you a good reason to not just play a Wizard. Ultimate Magic removes them from being Sorcerer only, and gives the Sorcerer no nice new toys to play with, whereas the Wizard got his lovely Arcane Discoveries. A few Sorcerer-only spells would seem a quick and simple way to help redress the balance, as would a few good Feats... of course, as with all such things, you're into power creep territory - give the Sorcerer a boost, and the next thing you know the Wizard gets another boost too...
As for being 'serious'... well, it's a game... how 'serious' do I have to be? ;p
If anything arcane is suppose to be within a wizards understanding, why are wizards unable to cast cure spells? Bard and Witches can. Summoner can sort of, but only in regards to their pet.
Because Jason doesn't want them to have cure spells. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with +1 level cure spells for wizards (just so the cleric is still the best at it), so CLW at 2nd, CMW at 3rd, and so on.
Curse that Jason.. always running around with that machette now denying my wizard the ability to heal.. He should go back to crystal lake!
Oh wait. wuh?
Sorry wrong jason. :(
Yes, because a feat that give a first level bloodline power at the cost of 2 feats (and the 2 further powers at the cost of 1 feat each one, with a high charisma prerequisite) has broken the sorcerer, especially when paragraphed to the wizard that probably be the last guy to chose that feat tree.
Be serious please. It that is your honest opinion you should start a parallel campaign about removing the Arcane bloodline as it infringe on the wizard powers.The point is really that a Wizard (for example) can now choose to have most of what the Sorcerer had in terms of unique abilities as well as everything he normally gets as a Wizard, whereas the Sorcerer gets no such choices.
The Charisma prerequisites on the Eldritch Heritage Feats aren't really as high as they seem. Starting with a 13 Charisma is perfectly viable for a Wizard who has nothing by Intelligence to worry about. By the time he hits the levels where he can qualify for Improved and Great Eldritch Heritage he'll already be into magic headband territory, so it's just down to spending some gold to make the thing cover Charisma as well as Intelligence. Far from being the last to take the Eldritch Heritage Feat tree, your average Wizard is actually in a good place to do so - it's those MAD melee characters who aren't so well placed, with the Bard and Paladin types who are better placed.
The concept of Bloodlines was an awesome one which Paizo implimented very well (IMHO) - they made the Sorcerer unique and interesting, and gave you a good reason to not just play a Wizard. Ultimate Magic removes them from being Sorcerer only, and gives the Sorcerer no nice new toys to play with, whereas the Wizard got his lovely Arcane Discoveries. A few Sorcerer-only spells would seem a quick and simple way to help redress the balance, as would a few good Feats... of course, as with all such things, you're into power creep territory - give the Sorcerer a boost, and the next thing you know the Wizard gets another boost too......
The Sorcerer had about twice as much content in UM then the Wizard with the ability to add an extra bloodline to their character, more flexibility in current bloodlines and with the Eldritch Heritage feat chain nearly a whole third bloodline. It seems to me the sorcerer is still the uncontested king of bloodlines.
I don't see a wizard as the only viable choice for a arcane caster opening in a group. I am sorry you feel the sorcerer is so weak that he can't keep up with the wizard but that's YOUR opinion. They are different and powerful in their own right. With any number of reasons to select them over a Wizard or Witch
I see access to some of the bloodline powers as a interesting off shoot of the Sorcerer concept. As an example of what happens when you have a character that was blessed/ cursed with a unique bloodline but didn't go the sorcerer route.
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I don't see a wizard as the only viable choice for a arcane caster opening in a group. I am sorry you feel the sorcerer is so weak that he can't keep up with the wizard but that's YOUR opinion. They are different and powerful in their own right. With any number of reasons to select them over a Wizard or Witch.
Okay, please don't tell me what my opinion is, I find it a little insulting.
I didn't ever claim that the Wizard is the only viable choice for an arcane caster.
I didn't ever claim I felt the Sorcerer was 'so weak'.
What I did point out what that most of the things which were unique to Sorcerers no longer are unique to Sorcerers.
There's a difference.
That's a rather extreme exaggeration. Yes the Wizard can get some sorcerer goodies by taking feats. He can not nearly get "most" of them and the more he collects the more he gimps himself as a Wizard. The Wizard-only spells are spells about things that Sorcerers don't worry about.
It's not an exaggeration if it's true.
Can a Wizard (for example) end up with three of the Sorcerer's Bloodline powers now? Yes.
Can a Wizard take Feats to end up being able to spontanteously cast spells now? Yes.
What has a Sorcerer got left which is unique to the class? Bloodline Arcana, and their level 20 Bloodline power. Oh, and the Create Sanguine Elixir Feat.
None of that's an exaggeration, is it?
Whether a Wizard (for example) taking the Eldritch Heritage and spontaneous-casting Feats was an optimised choice or not never came into it.
Would a couple of Sorcerer-only spells thrown in to help the class reclaim some of the uniqueness which initially made it so appealing from a role-play point of view break the game? Well... that's the question, isn't it... ;)
Profpotts no matter how you want to dress it up sorcerer and wizards don't play anything like the other weather your talking about bloodline feats or not. A couple of feats that give int based casters A spell that can be cast spontaneously doesn't magically make their whole spell known spontaneous or significantly change their play style. and as I said before the UM provided sorcerers a ton of different features that other casters don't have to keep them the king of bloodlines. I don't see any loss of appeal I am just as willing to play a sorcerer now as I was before.
I am sorry you feel the sorcerer has lost his uniqueness but that's YOUR opinion ;)
If I was to make a hundred archtypes for a class that all modfied the same class feature on one class, Then on another class I make a half dozen things like the quigon monk and a few dozen archtypes that mod the same class feature.. Which has the most options's to choose from?
Have you seen some of the new bloodlines. I like the new genie bloodlines with the final power the ability to cast limited wish as a spell like ability once per day. That is awesome I am looking forward to playing a character based on that bloodline. Something that is all sorcerer fakers need not apply.
Have you noticed how many people constantly say the game is only really played up to level 7, and often not much further than level 15?
Have you also noticed that you grant other peoples wishes? You don't cast it yourself. Someone else says "I wish.. Blah blah blah.." and you gotta grant it.
Have you also seen the old bloodlines that do 90% of EXACTLY the same thing as the genie bloodlines?
Have you noticed that two of the new bloodlines have feats that does exist?
Have you noticed that a Rashaka bloodline's arcana is something that would be used maybe once in a blue moon? (Most DMs don't have counter spellers or other things.)
Have you noticed how many people constantly say the game is only really played up to level 7, and often not much further than level 15?
I have heard that but strangely enough it doesn't prevent me or my group from going all the way to 20th level.
Have you also noticed that you grant other peoples wishes? You don't cast it yourself. Someone else says "I wish.. Blah blah blah.." and you gotta grant it.
You might want to read that again because I don't see anything their that forces you to cast the spell for someone else.
Have you also seen the old bloodlines that do 90% of EXACTLY the same thing as the genie bloodlines?
You will have to be more specific on that one. do they give the exact same feats, spells, special abilities and skill if not I am confused about the 90% your talking about.
Class Skill: Knowledge (planes).
Bonus Spells: enlarge person (3rd), scorching ray (5th), fireball (7th), wall of fire (9th), persistent image (11th), planar binding (13th), plane shift (15th), giant form II (17th), wish (19th).
Bonus Feats: Dodge, Empower Spell, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge [planes]), Weapon Finesse.
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to fire. This also changes the spell’s descriptors to match this energy type.
Bloodline Powers: Like an efreeti, you have both natural power over air and several other genie-based abilities.
Fire Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of fire damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Elemental Resistance (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain fire resistance 10. At 9th level, your fire resistance increases to 20.
Efreeti Form (Su): At 9th level, you gain the ability to assume the form of an efreeti once per day. This acts like the spell giant form I, except you only use it to become an efreeti and its duration is 1 round per level. While in this form, you also gain an efreeti’s heat ability.
Elemental Movement (Su): At 15th level, your base speed increases by +30 feet.
Power of the Efreet (Su): At 20th level, you gain the power of genies to grant wishes. Once per day, you can cast limited wish as a spell-like ability. Such wishes must begin with the words “I wish,” and cannot duplicate a wish you have granted within the past 24 hours. If you use this ability to duplicate a spell with a costly material component, you must provide that component.
You also become immune to fire damage, and can use plane shift once per day to travel to or from the Plane of Fire.
The power of the elements resides in you, and at times you can hardly control its fury. This influence comes from an elemental outsider in your family history or a time when you or your relatives were exposed to a powerful elemental force.
Class Skill: Knowledge (planes).
Bonus Spells: burning hands* (3rd), scorching ray* (5th), protection from energy (7th), elemental body I (9th), elemental body II (11th), elemental body III (13th), elemental body IV (15th), summon monster VIII (elementals only) (17th), elemental swarm (19th).
*These spells always deal a type of damage determined by your element. In addition, the subtype of these spells changes to match the energy type of your element.
Bonus Feats: Dodge, Empower Spell, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge [planes]), Weapon Finesse.
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline.
Bloodline Powers: One of the four elements infuses your being, and you can draw upon its power in times of need. At first level, you must select one of the four elements: air, earth, fire, or water. This choice cannot be changed. A number of your abilities grant resistances and deal damage based on your element, as noted on Table: Elemental Bloodline Energy Types and Movement.
Elemental Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Elemental Resistance (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain energy resistance 10 against your energy type. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 20.
Table: Elemental Bloodline Energy Types and Movement
Element Energy Type Elemental Movement
Air Electricity Fly 60 feet (average)
Earth Acid Burrow 30 feet
Fire Fire +30 feet base speed
Water Cold Swim 60 feet
Elemental Blast (Sp): At 9th level, you can unleash a blast of elemental power once per day. This 20-foot-radius burst does 1d6 points of damage of your energy type per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area of your blast receive a Reflex save for half damage. Creatures that fail their saves gain vulnerability to your energy type until the end of your next turn. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day. This power has a range of 60 feet.
Elemental Movement (Su): At 15th level, you gain a special movement type or bonus. This ability is based on your chosen element, as indicated on Table: Elemental Bloodline Energy Types and Movement.
For Fire, this is +30 feet base speed.
Elemental Body (Su): At 20th level, elemental power surges through your body. You gain immunity to sneak attacks, critical hits, and damage from your energy type.
Arcana, bloodline powers of 1, 3, and 15 the same. Same list of feats, a few spells are also the same. While maybe not 90% for fire, it is pretty dang close.
And I read it again. You gain the powers of a genie to grant wishes.
Yep You gain the powers of genie to grant wishes that is fluff text. It doesn't really mesh very well with the actual explanation of the power if you take that statement absolutely literally.
Actually it does mesh with taking it absolutely literally. Because it goes on further mentioning you cannot duplicate a wish you have granted in the past 24 hours.
you are granting wishes, because you are a genie.
So I guess I will have to capture myself to grant myself wishes. Since you are not a genie but a human, elf, dwarf, etc, with a bloodline ability.
Even if you do manage to pull that over on the DM..
As a level 20 wizard, I could be casting limited wish how many times a day?
4-5 times a day?
Heck I could cast Normal wish 4-5 times per day. And be immortal.
At 20th level, you gain the power of genies to grant wishes. Once per day, you can cast limited wish as a spell-like ability. Such wishes must begin with the words “I wish,” and cannot duplicate a wish you have granted within the past 24 hours. If you use this ability to duplicate a spell with a costly material component, you must provide that component.
The full text of the ability
At 20th level, you gain the power of genies to grant wishes.
The text that is in contention.
This is a single sentence that stand on its own. If you want to add it to the rest lets see what we get. First off normal genies do not have the power to grant wishes. So say we expand it to include the noble genies that do have that power OK. The statement is not addressed in the next sentence limiting or changing that power it goes in to describe a power but it is not truly connected to the previous sentence. such as except the caster is limited to the limited wish spell or only once per day. It describes an ability to use the limited wish for things but if the previous statement stands on its own it means that when my character is captured he is able to grant 3 wishes to the captor as long as it isn't a genie. Also there is no mention of a 24 hour limitation pertaining to the noble genies wish ability so I do not see how that ties the limited wish to the noble genies.
I would also like to point out that the Sorcerer can also cast limited wish if he takes the spell and or wish and is even on his bloodline list of spells. He can even cast it more often then the wizard, but the big difference is that he can cast this limited wish with out an expensive component cost unless the spell he mimics has one. A very important distinction.
Since the ability is only usable once per day any ways I don't really see a big issue with the 24 hour period thing anyway. Maybe they did it in fear of a feat or power that could potentially allow multiple uses. such as a second bloodline with the same ability.
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Since the ability is only usable once per day any ways I don't really see a big issue with the 24 hour period thing anyway. Maybe they did it in fear of a feat or power that could potentially allow multiple uses. such as a second bloodline with the same ability.
Hey - I think you've actually stumbled across the one reason to ever take the Sorcerous Bloodstrike Feat! :)
I honestly thought the Sorcerous Bloodstrike Feat was limited to multi use powers but after rereading it I guess not so potentially 3 times per day. Not a bad 20th level ability.
A wizard at level 20 can easily get these "expensive material components"
Golem Constructor.. Then throw in the thing to speed it's creation by 25%..
And really for a level 20 character you think 1.5k gold is going to be alot? You are talking about the level where the wizard could thrice over create his very own demiplane, an army of golems and just simply mine all the diamonds he wants.
and as if that is not enough, He can even travel between planets.
Um so can a Sorcerer
and your assuming the wizard doesn't have his gold tied up in magical gizmos and the like. He might have some gold about for spell components but not all of it.
Actually the arcane discoveries are wizard only. So no immortality for you mate. His gold doesn't just get "tied up in magical gizmos". Especially an immortal wizard.
Not to mention, ignoring that the sorcerer would have spend all three spells to do the wizard thing here. (Cause the wizard is traveling between planets, creating his own demiplane and casting wish) Notice how you fell back on just the sorcerer being able to do that.
While your "I wish.." spell-like ability that can only grant the same wish every 24 hours (Notice how they used grant twice? Hmm..) is just simply that.
wizards and sorcerers of the same level have access to the same wealth and while the wizard has access to a larger variety of spells the wish spell would allow a sorcerer to do every thing you mentioned except access the immortality ability of wizards.
Sorcerers have access to powerful abilities of their own that the wizard doesn't have access to like the 7th level limited wish spell like ability or a DR of 10 of X variety. so your argument doesn't really hold up.
So ow my god my character can't have immortality big deal that was tricksy of you adding that in. It slipped in under my radar when I responded. I will agree that they would not have access to the immortality ability of wizards but immortality of another fashion such as through magical items and the like is not out of the question.
If I understand the large impractical sentence there..
You are trying to say that a sorcerer who has limited wish, can mimic the effects of level 9 spells? It appears now you are just attempting to throw words at me and see which actually do stick.
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Of course, technically, there is one type of spell Sorcerers get more out of than Wizards... cantrips.
A Sorcerer ends up with 9 cantrips known, and can blow Feats (and sometimes favoured class bonuses) on learning more - and can cast all of them at will.
A Wizard is always limited to the 4 cantrips he selects each morning (so he has a greater overall selection, but much less of a selection over the course of the day).
Luckily Ultimate Magic had a load of new... what's that..? they got cut..? never mind... ;)
(Yeah, I know - they put 'em up on the Ultimate Cantrips blog!)
If I understand the large impractical sentence there..
You are trying to say that a sorcerer who has limited wish, can mimic the effects of level 9 spells? It appears now you are just attempting to throw words at me and see which actually do stick.
who said anything about using that 7th level ability to do that I was talking about the WISH spell to recreate the spells you mentioned looking over my post I could have made that more clear.
The abilities you mentioned that are out of my reach as a sorcerer such as immortality are made up with funny enough special abilities of my own such as being able to cast the 7th level spell limited wish nearly for free possibly even multiple times or the ability to gain a constant DR of 10.
It amazes me how you can overlook actually abilities that are not available to a wizard but continue to whine about the reverse being true.
cleared up my previous post.
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"Realistically" every sorcerer's magic should be unique and raw. They make it up as they go. Sure they shoot force that is like magic missile and bolts of fire that are like scorching rays but since they are personal and individual and depend on blood line they should be relatively unique.
Of course that would be a design nighmare and likely end up looking something like words of power not traditional spells. That would be ok by me and more accurately reflect what sorcerers are supposed to be.
Have you also noticed that you grant other peoples wishes? You don't cast it yourself. Someone else says "I wish.. Blah blah blah.." and you gotta grant it.
Power of the Efreet (Su): At 20th level, you gain the power of genies to grant wishes. Once per day, you can cast limited wish as a spell-like ability. Such wishes must begin with the words “I wish,” and cannot duplicate a wish you have granted within the past 24 hours. If you use this ability to duplicate a spell with a costly material component, you must provide that component.
I'm not sure you GOTTA grant it... otherwise they would have said 'You MUST cast limited wish..."
The 'CAN' in there makes it sound like you have a choice.
UNLIKE a true blooded genie ;) YAY HALF-BLOODS!!!
On a completely unrelated note... why is everyone saying that a 2-3 fet chain that gives 'some' of the bloodline powers dilutes and neuters the sorcerers.... but nobody makes the same argument for the magic talents traits and rogue talents? Gaining a free spell doesn't dilute the casters anymore by sharing a pale imitiation of thier power with a different class...
Sorcerers have ADHD?
How about a few spells that exclusively deal with the spontaneous casters and/or profit of bloodlines then.
Spell load:
when cast it immeadiately acts as an already known lower level spell that can be cast spontaneously, but can be cast as a swift action. alternatively by 'locking' in a given spell of lower level, its caster level is considered +1
Alter bloodline:
Change target (self) bloodline for the duration. alters known spells and bloodline abilities but not feats or skills.
Bloodline boost:
alters target (self) bloodline, making it 4 levels higher for the duration
apotheosis:
Technically, a specialised version of wildshape. you become an affiliated bloodline critter.
Batts
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On a completely unrelated note... why is everyone saying that a 2-3 fet chain that gives 'some' of the bloodline powers dilutes and neuters the sorcerers.... but nobody makes the same argument for the magic talents traits and rogue talents? Gaining a free spell doesn't dilute the casters anymore by sharing a pale imitiation of thier power with a different class...
May I suggest that there's a fundamental difference between a specfic class feature granting access to the class features of a different class, and the offering of class features as simple Feats?
To get the Minor and Major Magic Rogue talents you need to be, well... a Rogue... and in return you get the approximate spell-casting power of an average level 1 gnome commoner...
To get the Bloodline power class features of a Sorcerer you need to be... well, anyone really... of at least 3rd level and take the Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage Feats.
Characters with PC classes are meant, in most campaign settings, to be few and far between - an 'elite'. Finding a Rogue who happens to have taken both the Minor and Major magic Rogue Talents will be a rarity in the first place, and all they're getting back is the aforementioned 'gnome commoner' level raw magical power.
Finding someone with the Eldritch Heritage Feat is going to be pretty simple, since anyone can take it...
At one time, back in the heady pre-Ultimate Magic days, when a Sorcerer revealed that the power of dragons flowed through the very blood in his veins it was dramatic, and cool... Now the usual response from the peasants will be a shrug and a 'Big whoop - ol' Bob the dung collector can do that same trick with the claws...'.
Exchanging class features for class features is one thing - it still requires a character to take a certain class to access those features, remain in that class as they level to increase the power of those features, and is generally balanced with what they're giving up. Exchanging class features for Feats is saying that those class features are commonplace and up for grabs by any Tom, Dick, or Harriet...
How many chacters do you think would be running around with Animal Companions, for example, if you could gain one at the equivalent Druid power of your level -2, and it then levelled with your character, rather than your class, level? Pretty much everyone? How about Sneak Attack damage? Sneak Attack as a Rogue of your character level -2 for the cost of a Feat - balanced? No?
May I suggest that there's a fundamental difference between a specfic class feature granting access to the class features of a different class, and the offering of class features as simple Feats?
To get the Minor and Major Magic Rogue talents you need to be, well... a Rogue... and in return you get the approximate spell-casting power of an average level 1 gnome commoner...
To get the Bloodline power class features of a Sorcerer you need to be... well, anyone really... of at least 3rd level and take the Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage Feats.
Well... the Skill focus is kind of a harsh requirement... and kind of hurts its usefulness in my opinion.
That said, I LOVED the idea of the Eldrich heritage feats.. my BIGGEST complaint of the bloodline powers were that ANYONE with 'weird' blood was a sorcerer..
I like the idea of now you can have a half-infernal priest, or half-dragon bard... or something along those lines. In fact I would argue that the eldrich heritage is useful for everyone EXCEPT Sorcerers... (Honestly not a fan of cross blooded/heritaged Arcane/draconic/infernal/fey sorcerers... eventually that poor body would just EXPLODE) ;)
As for Rogue talents only avaible for rogues... I've got a minor magic talent as a TRAIT. And THOSE are available to Everyone...
But just like the casters are more than JUST one spell... I don't see a fighter with claws stealing any thunder from a sorcerer with claws... AND spells..
Apples and oranges... Each class still awesome in their own right.
yeah you have minor magic talent as a trait...
But do have the ability to throw down traps like a rogue as a trait? make sneak attacks as a feat or trait? or a variety of various other things a rogue can do?
Here's a fun homebrew option:
http://gamingmage.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/sunday-spell-spontaneity-enhance r/
I agree that a couple sorcerer-only spells are a must.
Moox
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My issue with the sorcerer class is that not enough is granted to the class to make it worth playing, I played in some circles where the casters are not preparing spells when they should and instead flipping through the core book on their turn but that is a different post....
Wizard only spells are ok to be because they address the issue of preparing spells because that is a wizard trait. Sorcerer traits, feats, archetypes and spells should address the theme and mechanics of the class. The theme of the class is that the magic granted to the class is not a collection of spells that are practiced but the actual spells are granted to the person through their bloodlines.
New abilities should address the sorcerer spell casting as slots instead of prepared spells. Like how the sorcerer is suppose to be a "Magic missile machine" as described in a dragon issue years ago in 3.5 climax, feats should allow that machine to sacrifice a 3rd level slot to cast magic missile for the next 3 rounds. The issue is not just a sorcerer issue but an issue where spontaneous casting could and needs to be more addressed and played out within the game.
Here is an example...
Spontaneous Division
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells
Benefit: Sacrifice a 2nd level or above spell slot. For the number of rounds equal the level of the spell scarificed a caster can cast their spontaneous spells without using the spell slots of the spells until the number of levels cast this way equals the level of the scarificed slot. These rounds need to be consecutive.
(this really isn't too far from the "Split Slot" wizard ability in UM but fits the theme of spontaneously casting)
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The other issue for sorcerers is the bloodline issue. From what I've read many don't like how the blood lines are set, feats that would allow the user to change the spell received. I know that the Domains and Mysteries
Are static but a clerics other slots get open range and oracles get all of the heal or inflict spells. Maybe a feat can allow the sorcerer to select a spell of the same school or the granted spell. But to help with them they should have abilities to help support their bloodline abilities.
Here is an example....
Eldritch Presence
Prerequisite: bloodline ability
Benefit: Make a DC: 20 skill check of your Bloodlines associated skill, if successful use your 1st level bloodline ability as a free action. This hasn't any effect of bloodline powers with duration