I'm guessing that he means the ones with Ryan Reynolds on the packaging and a Green Lantern Sinestro (released this month).
If so, I'm absolutely amazed at the advancements they've made with the robotic painting.
No more blob-faces!
I like the idea of packs of minis for the adventure paths... maybe keep it to the "important" or obscure ones.
The Stag Lord
Tatzywurm <sp?>
Whiptail Wurm
Some bandits...
1 per mod... and of course lots of people would buy them for just the minis too...
Those do look nice - at least on the pictures.
By the way, is there any eta on those PF figures? Will there be released together with the starter set?
Does that strictly take into account maximum encounter size with a given enemy or is that the sum total of enemies? For example, if there are 18 spriggans in the AP, but the party never encounters more than, say, 4 at a time, does that count for 4 or 18?Don't know about Bryan's list, but mine are the "number encountered at a time". So, in your example above, 4 spriggans.
Same. Max needed for any given encounter. So for the example, the box would have 4 Spriggans.
Max needed for any given encounter. So for the example, the box would have 4 Spriggans.
The problem here that I'd see making this a pain, is either the minis would be terribly behind the schedule of the aps or the aps would be delayed, at best the aps would be required to be done a cycle ahead at the minimum. The reason being, the adventure needs written, proofed, edited and finalized before exact encounter number and content would be known. Can't make the minis in the kind of short turn around that would require. The problem here is if they include an encounter with a band of redcaps in the draft, but they get cut from the adventure for space or theme reasons, they're stuck with monsters they can't use for this box set, and need to replace them with whatever encounter replaced them (since math kind of determines how many encounters overall go into one adventure). Too many variables to make this work at the super fast rate that aps come out. Now this could work for special modules or some such, but I just think it'd be highly unlikely (and the shipping for the box set would hurt something fierce). Please note that I would love for that to happen but I'm realistic about the work and logistics that would go into it.
Max needed for any given encounter. So for the example, the box would have 4 Spriggans.The problem here that I'd see making this a pain, is either the minis would be terribly behind the schedule of the aps or the aps would be delayed, at best the aps would be required to be done a cycle ahead at the minimum. The reason being, the adventure needs written, proofed, edited and finalized before exact encounter number and content would be known. Can't make the minis in the kind of short turn around that would require. The problem here is if they include an encounter with a band of redcaps in the draft, but they get cut from the adventure for space or theme reasons, they're stuck with monsters they can't use for this box set, and need to replace them with whatever encounter replaced them (since math kind of determines how many encounters overall go into one adventure). Too many variables to make this work at the super fast rate that aps come out. Now this could work for special modules or some such, but I just think it'd be highly unlikely (and the shipping for the box set would hurt something fierce). Please note that I would love for that to happen but I'm realistic about the work and logistics that would go into it.
I don't know how much spare time each individual game group can spend per week playing but in my case I'm lucky to play once a week.
A slight delay from module to minis wouldn't bother any of my players or myself as we are still running the Age of Worms AP. As stated in other posts the major important Npc's are what would be needed, however if anyone can finish parts of an AP in less time it takes to print the individual modules then I can empathise with them. But, in the long run, having the minis available is preferable than not at all. Just my opinion!
I don't know how much spare time each individual game group can spend per week playing but in my case I'm lucky to play once a week.
A slight delay from module to minis wouldn't bother any of my players or myself as we are still running the Age of Worms AP. As stated in other posts the major important Npc's are what would be needed, however if anyone can finish parts of an AP in less time it takes to print the individual modules then I can empathise with them. But, in the long run, having the minis available is preferable than not at all. Just my opinion!
Don't get me wrong, I would love to get them also. And I too have the great game delay problem in that I don't play enough to get through an AP so fast as to out run the minis even if they were behind. The problem you run into is a few though for ap bundled packs like what is offered. First of all, your only going to sell one pack per ap and maybe a few to people who just want the minis. Once theyve sold theres really not alot of them going to be sold because everyone already got them for the ap they are running. So a limited demand is kind of placed on them based on what they are (not counting the minis enthusiests who will just buy them because theyre minis). Then you have to factor in the amount of people who will skip out on them based solely on the ap theyre linked to (I hate drow so no drow minis for me! etc.). Factor in people who will wait to get the adventures until the minis are done (there are people who if they know there is the companion product will wait until it is out aswell before even bothering to buy it, just how some people are). Now having said that I want to again stress how much I would love Ap minis made, I just don't see the logistics. Again take my thoughts with a grain and all that, as Im no market analyst or researcher and Paizo has those, so they know what the market truly wants/needs and have proven that many times in how theyve handled their business.
Ideally, I think what I'd like to see happen with PPMs is to have encounter packs released rather than boosters or anything like that. Ral Partha and Grenadier used to make sets waaaaaay back in the day where you could buy a small box with around 10 minis that would be good for an encounter (and occasionally even included stats for an encounter within). For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.
Mind you, I always enjoyed the GameMastery Encounter sets that were made before and would like to see them continue ;)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My contacts at WizKids suggested that we look at the newer Green Lantern HeroClix sets for a good gauge of the quality they will be able to match for the Pathfinder set.
I have seen those, and I think they are pretty cool.
I've been impressed by the NECA miniatures (mostly buying on the secondary market). The Batman Beyond and Miss Martian I have are excellent, and I bought the Blackest Night set just for the Yellow Lantern Scarecrow. (now if only the YL Batman wasn't a chase piece)
I'm looking forward to the Captain America set (Steve Rogers is my hero!)
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.Mind you, I always enjoyed the GameMastery Encounter sets that were made before and would like to see them continue ;)
Where I am someone who does not mind buying randomized boosters, I would love to see something like this. This is a pack that our gaming group would use not only at low level, but higher level, as well. Our GM loves to throw in ‘fodder’ for us at higher levels to expend our resources and goblins, kobolds, orcs, skeletons or packs of any CR 1 (or less) monster would be something very useful for us.
And it isn’t pack we most likely would be buying only one of. I can see buying multiple packs of each kind of monster.
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Ideally, I think what I'd like to see happen with PPMs is to have encounter packs released rather than boosters or anything like that. Ral Partha and Grenadier used to make sets waaaaaay back in the day where you could buy a small box with around 10 minis that would be good for an encounter (and occasionally even included stats for an encounter within). For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.Mind you, I always enjoyed the GameMastery Encounter sets that were made before and would like to see them continue ;)
Great idea, +1.
I like the idea of packs of minis for the adventure paths... maybe keep it to the "important" or obscure ones.
** spoiler omitted **
1 per mod... and of course lots of people would buy them for just the minis too...
Well I think one issue is that demand for AP based minis is going to very. There is a lot more deman for say Carrioj Crown: Flaming Skeletons than say Carrion Crown: Haumted Bric a Brac. On the other hand a full AP normally takes more than six months to run through. That leaves a lot of insentive for a GM to pimp their game with the occasional map or mini pack.
Do contemporary Hero-clix releases still use the brittle plastic of earlier Mageknight sets? One thing I loved about DDM (and the reaper/asylum pre-paints) was the durable, flexible plastic employed.
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Great idea, +1.Ideally, I think what I'd like to see happen with PPMs is to have encounter packs released rather than boosters or anything like that. Ral Partha and Grenadier used to make sets waaaaaay back in the day where you could buy a small box with around 10 minis that would be good for an encounter (and occasionally even included stats for an encounter within). For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.Mind you, I always enjoyed the GameMastery Encounter sets that were made before and would like to see them continue ;)
I like the idea, but I think that price point would be closer to 29.99 (just looking at how similar products are priced - 6 mini starter sets are 19.99 and this package you suggest has 11)
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Do contemporary Hero-clix releases still use the brittle plastic of earlier Mageknight sets? One thing I loved about DDM (and the reaper/asylum pre-paints) was the durable, flexible plastic employed.
Nope, It is still more brittle than DDM minis, but much less brittle than the early mage knight ones.
Nope, It is still more brittle than DDM minis, but much less brittle than the early mage knight ones.
Good news. Thanks!
Do contemporary Hero-clix releases still use the brittle plastic of earlier Mageknight sets? One thing I loved about DDM (and the reaper/asylum pre-paints) was the durable, flexible plastic employed.
I believe they've switched the plastic used at least once; perhaps twice.
The problem I have with them currently is the scale range. When they say 25mm - 30mm they aren't kidding. The problem is when sculptor A makes a Hand Ninja at 30mm and sculptor B makes Thor at 25mm. Though it's better than it used to be they still need to tighten up their scaling a bit.
SJ
Though it's better than it used to be they still need to tighten up their scaling a bit.
SJ
Alas, the bane of minis since beginning of time. :(
Though it's better than it used to be they still need to tighten up their scaling a bit.
SJ
Alas, the bane of minis since beginning of time. :(
+1
+1Though it's better than it used to be they still need to tighten up their scaling a bit.
SJ
Alas, the bane of minis since beginning of time. :(
This was one of my two problems with the older d&d minis sets. Nothing like a fat dwarf that squats with a shield and is the same size as an entire half-orc paladin in full plate or the 8' tall Van Helsing guy with the crossbow who looks like he has to be a PC or a boss mini because he is so tall compared to everyone around him....
(the other problem was some of the rarities, Dragons and illithids and rakshasa aside... warforged and pc style minis were rare and expensive on the secondary market)
This was one of my two problems with the older d&d minis sets. Nothing like a fat dwarf that squats with a shield and is the same size as an entire half-orc paladin in full plate or the 8' tall Van Helsing guy with the crossbow who looks like he has to be a PC or a boss mini because he is so tall compared to everyone around him....
(the other problem was some of the rarities, Dragons and illithids and rakshasa aside... warforged and pc style minis were rare and expensive on the secondary market)
Ugh I know just the one you mean. Ugly and over sized -- in fact, one of the worst pieces in the entire line...
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I like the idea, but I think that price point would be closer to 29.99 (just looking at how similar products are priced - 6 mini starter sets are 19.99 and this package you suggest has 11)
I've seen my share of mini products with the 30 $ pricetag (that usually translate to 30 € in the gaming stores for us customers across the pond), and I say thanks but no thanks.
That would be barely acceptable for a collectible pack with ten or twelve individual minis (very specific characters, highly different sculpts, maybe one or two large sized ones, etc.) In the pack described above by sketchpad, there would be 4 individual types, one of which with multiples, all of them small, plus a tile.
19.99 sounds mighty fine.
I like the idea, but I think that price point would be closer to 29.99 (just looking at how similar products are priced - 6 mini starter sets are 19.99 and this package you suggest has 11)I've seen my share of mini products with the 30 $ pricetag (that usually translate to 30 € in the gaming stores for us customers across the pond), and I say thanks but no thanks.
That would be barely acceptable for a collectible pack with ten or twelve individual minis (very specific characters, highly different sculpts, maybe one or two large sized ones, etc.) In the pack described above by sketchpad, there would be 4 individual types, one of which with multiples, all of them small, plus a tile.
19.99 sounds mighty fine.
I know with the Players Handbook package it had only 5 minis and it was $14.99.
I could see something like this maybe being as low as $24.99, however I have to agree with Cpt. kirstov in that you would most likely not find it for $19.99. Now if you got rid of the game mastery tile, brief encounter scenario and maybe knock it down to 9 minis, I could see it for $19.99.
Prepainted plastic minis are just plain expensive now. The days of 8 different (unique) minis in a booster box for $11.99 are over.
Ideally, I think what I'd like to see happen with PPMs is to have encounter packs released rather than boosters or anything like that. Ral Partha and Grenadier used to make sets waaaaaay back in the day where you could buy a small box with around 10 minis that would be good for an encounter (and occasionally even included stats for an encounter within). For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $39.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.Mind you, I always enjoyed the GameMastery Encounter sets that were made before and would like to see them continue ;)
Sorry, had to fix it for you.
CEO
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For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.
My guess is that a set like that would have a $29.99 price point or thereabouts. It is MUCH more costly to do nonrandomized sets like this, so the price would have to go up to match. Maybe even $34.99. Not sure how many people would buy a set like that at such a high price point, which is why you don't see these types of products being made.
-Lisa
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I am totally stoked about this and will buy them as soon as they are available.
I also have no doubt that you guys will create an excellent Random mini line. I am certain you will have 20 commons that we all want more of. I just hope that a creature or warrior that is cool and common place in Golarion doesn't end up being a rare.
That is the one thing I disliked about Wizards of the Coast. They took a thing from the game world that was common and made it into a rare.
Such things like the Stars Wars AT-RT and the Axis and Allies T-34c Russian Tank were rares or very rare. They were in fact not so uncommon in those settings.
A rare thing in the game or real world should be a rare in the mini world.
On a side note, any chance of a return to Warbands mini game?
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I like the idea, but I think that price point would be closer to 29.99 (just looking at how similar products are priced - 6 mini starter sets are 19.99 and this package you suggest has 11)I've seen my share of mini products with the 30 $ pricetag (that usually translate to 30 € in the gaming stores for us customers across the pond), and I say thanks but no thanks.
That would be barely acceptable for a collectible pack with ten or twelve individual minis (very specific characters, highly different sculpts, maybe one or two large sized ones, etc.) In the pack described above by sketchpad, there would be 4 individual types, one of which with multiples, all of them small, plus a tile.
19.99 sounds mighty fine.
I know with the Players Handbook package it had only 5 minis and it was $14.99.
I could see something like this maybe being as low as $24.99, however I have to agree with Cpt. kirstov in that you would most likely not find it for $19.99. Now if you got rid of the game mastery tile, brief encounter scenario and maybe knock it down to 9 minis, I could see it for $19.99.
Prepainted plastic minis are just plain expensive now. The days of 8 different (unique) minis in a booster box for $11.99 are over.
So are my purchases, I fear. I can not justify to myself such an expense for 9, ten or a dozen minis. Prepainted and all.
For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.My guess is that a set like that would have a $29.99 price point or thereabouts. It is MUCH more costly to do nonrandomized sets like this, so the price would have to go up to match. Maybe even $34.99. Not sure how many people would buy a set like that at such a high price point, which is why you don't see these types of products being made.
-Lisa
Lisa,
Why is a non-randomized set more expensive to produce? Again, I am not one who has an issue of randomized packs, so I am not asking this because I have a problem with this, I am just curious why it would cost more.
I had assumed prepainted plastic minis are more expensive now in general, but I did not know set of predetermined minis would be more costly to produce.
For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.My guess is that a set like that would have a $29.99 price point or thereabouts. It is MUCH more costly to do nonrandomized sets like this, so the price would have to go up to match. Maybe even $34.99. Not sure how many people would buy a set like that at such a high price point, which is why you don't see these types of products being made.
-LisaLisa,
Why is a non-randomized set more expensive to produce? Again, I am not one who has an issue of randomized packs, so I am not asking this because I have a problem with this, I am just curious why it would cost more.
I had assumed prepainted plastic minis are more expensive now in general, but I did not know set of predetermined minis would be more costly to produce.
I'm not Lisa (As she's way too pretty and successful for us to be mistaken for each other ;P) but I do know that it has been said many times that randomized sets are overrall better money because you sell more overall product. What I mean is, if you produced a pack of mimics and intellect devourers, a pack with goblins, and a pack of dragons for instance there's a good chance that one of those isn't going to sell as well and will sit on shelves making no money and not recouping their production cost (I have a sneaky feeling itd be pack 1). This is something that any mini maker deals with as some sculpts are incredibly popular and others are less so. However if they are randomized blisters of 4+ minis then you sell equal amounts (well as equal as your rarity system allows) of Dragons, goblins, AND mimics. People will buy random packs for chase rares like dragons and huge sized god avatars or whatever. In the process you sell tons of the common critters that a small percentage wants and they are still viable to produce financially. In the visible mini world every mini has to be popular enough to sell well, and if it isnt then thats a chunck of money wasted.
*Note* I am in no way condemning Mimics, or devaluing them. No Mimics were harmed in the making of this post. Paid for by the society for mimics who pretend to be laptops and eat people making posts about them. Membership not valid in California.
I'm not Lisa (As she's way too pretty and successful for us to be mistaken for each other ;P) but I do know that it has been said many times that randomized sets are overrall better money because you sell more overall product. What I mean is, if you produced a pack of mimics and intellect devourers, a pack with goblins, and a pack of dragons for instance there's a good chance that one of those isn't going to sell as well and will sit on shelves making no money and not recouping their production cost (I have a sneaky feeling itd be pack 1). This is something that any mini maker deals with as some sculpts are incredibly popular and others are less so. However if they are randomized blisters of 4+ minis then you sell equal amounts (well as equal as your rarity system allows) of Dragons, goblins, AND mimics....
Pff. Stinkin' mimic lover... ;)
My concern is that, with randomization:
*You end up with a lot of extras that you don't need. Anything that isn't a rare or ultra-rare will typically have no trade value. With HeroClix, at one point, I had filled 5 case boxes with loose extra minis that weren't needed. Not only is that a lot of wasted money on my part (and a type of purchase much more difficult under the current economy) but also I ran out of storage room and ended up selling them at the Charity Auction at GenCon. The amount of money I spent per mini that was actually useful was absurdly high.
*Cost of collecting becomes so high that many gamers are excluded right from the get go; especially when the mini they want most ends up being a popular ultra-rare that goes for $100+ on the secondary market.
*Many people will ignore the main product and juts buy the particular figs they want on the secondary market. The problem there is that the original company makes no money off an eBay sale, for example. That Undead Cyborg Gunslinging Ninja Dragon that just sold for $105? WizKids doesn't get a dime of that. When you start adding in chase figures, con-exclusives, purple rings and all other sorts of crazy crap, you're just pushing more and more people away.
*HeroClix is a lousy model to base anything off of. They've almost gone under numerous times and was, at one point, essentially OOP for a year before NECA came in and bailed the game out.
*Randomised minis is basically like Wall Street speculation. Putting money into something without really knowing the end result. The heyday of prepainted plastics is gone. This isn't like when you had HeroClix, D&D, MechWarrior, Star Wars, Crimson Skies et. al. Most of those are gone now. the market couldn't aupport it during an economy far better than what we have now.
I hope it all works out, I really do. But I'm afraid that the model is just going to follow the staus quo of what's always been done and has almost never worked in the long run.
SJ
*You end up with a lot of extras that you don't need. Anything that isn't a rare or ultra-rare will typically have no trade value. With HeroClix, at one point, I had filled 5 case boxes with loose extra minis that weren't needed. Not only is that a lot of wasted money on my part (and a type of purchase much more difficult under the current economy) but also I ran out of storage room and ended up selling them at the Charity Auction at GenCon. The amount of money I spent per mini that was actually useful was absurdly high.
Extras/unwanted minis get sold, helping to supply the secondary market, subsidize your minis purchases, and fund additional minis purchases.
*Cost of collecting becomes so high that many gamers are excluded right from the get go; especially when the mini they want most ends up being a popular ultra-rare that goes for $100+ on the secondary market.
Unfortunately, this sounds harsh, but you can't please everyone, and I'd rather see some people pleased, than nobody pleased in an attempt to be "fair". Such is life in the collecting world.
*Many people will ignore the main product and juts buy the particular figs they want on the secondary market. The problem there is that the original company makes no money off an eBay sale, for example. That Undead Cyborg Gunslinging Ninja Dragon that just sold for $105? WizKids doesn't get a dime of that. When you start adding in chase figures, con-exclusives, purple rings and all other sorts of crazy crap, you're just pushing more and more people away.
The secondary market helps drive the primary market. This is something that people need to realize for many products. Michael Stackpole published a rant a long time ago complaining about the used book market, something publishers have actively tried to end at multiple times in history. They, too, don't get it. A thriving secondary market gives you a place to sell your unwanted wares, gives those who can't or won't pay retail a place to purchase the wares (and in many cases, be introduced to the wares in the first place, so that they can become primary consumers) and in the case of minis, provides an option for those that hate the random blind packs.
To claim that the original company makes no money off of the secondary market sales is ridiculous. The major minis sellers online were buying cases of minis by the pallet so that they could open them and supply the singles market, in addition to their purchases of minis from collectors.
The primary market made plenty of money from the sale of minis on eBay, it just wasn't a direct profit.
*HeroClix is a lousy model to base anything off of. They've almost gone under numerous times and was, at one point, essentially OOP for a year before NECA came in and bailed the game out.
Yet, it's still a product that sells, and it has always had a company around to pick it up. I wouldn't call it a lousy model - HeroClix has never gone under, the companies producing it have, and for reasons other than HeroClix. If the product wasn't marketable and profitable, NECA wouldn't be selling it.
WizKids, Tops, et al. had other products beyond just HeroClix/minis. HeroClix didn't kill those businesses.
*Randomised minis is basically like Wall Street speculation. Putting money into something without really knowing the end result. The heyday of prepainted plastics is gone. This isn't like when you had HeroClix, D&D, MechWarrior, Star Wars, Crimson Skies et. al. Most of those are gone now. the market couldn't aupport it during an economy far better than what we have now.
I think there's a lot of other factors that were resultant in the end of product lines like DDM/SWM. Others weren't popular enough to survive their attempts to cash in on the CMG fad (Crimson Skies is a great example).
I would point out that HeroClix is still thriving with a well-managed company behind them, and Monsterpocalypse still seems to be being produced, sold and played - and those don't really have the RPG market as a potential customer base outside the game.
I hope it all works out, I really do. But I'm afraid that the model is just going to follow the staus quo of what's always been done and has almost never worked in the long run.
Unfortunately, there's not another model that's a viable option.
As many have pointed out, visible non-random packs just don't work. It's those highly desirable "rares" that drive a lot of purchases, and ultimately, they subsidize a lot of the other minis.
If the visible non-random packs really would sell in the numbers that some folks posit, then Reaper's Legendary Encounters line would be far more expansive, and you'd probably see bigger packs for less money than we currently do.
Reaper's stuff is great, but you don't see the prices at nearly the DDM prices - per their website, goblins and kobolds are $2/each if you buy them in a pack of 3. Skeletons are nearly $3/each if you buy in a pack of 3, and orcs are nearly $4/each.
Back in the days of blind random packs of DDM, I'd pay $0.25 - $1.00 for goblins, kobolds, orcs, skeletons, bugbears, gnolls, etc.
I miss the good old days.
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Lisa,Why is a non-randomized set more expensive to produce? Again, I am not one who has an issue of randomized packs, so I am not asking this because I have a problem with this, I am just curious why it would cost more.
I had assumed prepainted plastic minis are more expensive now in general, but I did not know set of predetermined minis would be more costly to produce.
I'm Also not Lisa, But look at it this way: figure a 70 figure set (24 common, 22 uncommon, and 22 rares) and a 6 figure pack (3 common 2 uncommon and 1 rare)
keeping the assumptions, and the above goblin encounter: say there are 2 common goblin sculpts, 2 uncommon goblin sculpts(Sorc and elite) and the goblin dog is rare.
If all you want is the encounter, you'd get a common mook goblin 2/24 times x 3 commons per pack = one common goblin per 4 packs.
you'd get a common mook goblin 2/24 times x 2 uncommons per pack = one uncommon goblin per 4 packs. Or 1 per 6 packs. (to get the second after you got the first would be 1 in 8 packs)
you'd get the goblin dog in 1/22 x 1 rare per pack = 1 in 22 packs.
So in the amount of time it takes you to get the two uncommon goblins, you have bought an average of 14 packs, there is a 64% chance that you have gotten a goblin dog, and you have 3-4 Common goblins, and plenty of trade bait to get more..
On the plus side, I have found use from over 75% of my DDM minis during PFS scenarios. Catfolk/taer/War ape/girriallan/werewolf/ect might all appear as monkeys, but they are in use. I've even run out of something that I had over a dosen of multiple times.
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I don't mind random. I mind the screwed up distributions that have always gone hand in hand with random minis, especially D&D minis. As someone trying to fill out the entire summon monster spell roster, I'm feeling the hate for the DDM system.
Fire Beetles - a creature summonable with a first level spell, a nice fantasy-esque low-level critter, and a really simple sculpt and paint, was never made. I couldn't get a pre-painted fire beetle if I wanted to despite their relative ubiquity.
Ditto Giant Ants, Small Elementals, and anything at all aquatic.
On the other hand, I'm paying 7 bucks for a HORSE and 99 cents for a Giant Frog. Which one do you think I'm going to use more, and need more OF, in my games?
Erinyes and Succubi are both on the summon monster VI list. Alongside things like Huge-sized Elementals, a couple of dinosaurs, Large-sized Dire Animals, these little human-sized figures go for $17 and $34 respectively. Not because they were particularly great looking minis, and not because they're wanted by everyone for their games, but because they're so damned rare. With a flat distribution in your random packs, the secondary market charges based on demand, not supply.
If we MUST go random, please please please don't go with "chaser" style distribution of the models. Either make it flat, or make things that are traditionally large group or that show up a lot in games more common than solo critters or that are specialty encounters.
I know the old line was, "Good, Random, Cheap. Pick any two."
Actually, I think it was "Good, NONRandom, Cheap. Pick any two."
But yeah, that's pretty much it. :(
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I know the old line was, "Good, Random, Cheap. Pick any two."Actually, I think it was "Good, NONRandom, Cheap. Pick any two."
But yeah, that's pretty much it. :(
D'oh! You're right.
I don't remember why random influnces the cost though. I think the above posts explain it though.
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Stuff
And for me in the end that was the problem, was what they choose to put into the packs. I never had a problem with random packs, but their choice of content was just odd sometimes adding things that where made just for the Minatures and never even in Monster books and very useless minatures.
I think a Random set with a good selection of Minatures sticking to only published Monsters would do well.
For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.My guess is that a set like that would have a $29.99 price point or thereabouts. It is MUCH more costly to do nonrandomized sets like this, so the price would have to go up to match. Maybe even $34.99. Not sure how many people would buy a set like that at such a high price point, which is why you don't see these types of products being made.
-Lisa
Lisa,
Why is a non-randomized set more expensive to produce? Again, I am not one who has an issue of randomized packs, so I am not asking this because I have a problem with this, I am just curious why it would cost more.
I had assumed prepainted plastic minis are more expensive now in general, but I did not know set of predetermined minis would be more costly to produce.
This was discussed a lot through the years at the Heroscapers web site. Randomized sets results in more units sold because people will buy extra packs to try and get product they DO want, while continuing to buy product they DON'T want. Non-randomized sets results in the consumer getting exactly what they want in near the quantity they want it. The cost of the pacts have to be adjusted upwards on non-randomized sets because the publishers of those mini's expect a lower unit of sales than randomized. If you are going to invest in the production of sculpts and molds, you want the biggest allowable return on that investment.
That said I prefer to know what I'm buying, so I personally am not in the market for "chase a card" games or "chase a mini" miniature. However, many gamers are hence the success of Magic and other mini-games. Heroscape's biggest failing was their production runs on "unique" figures (hero's) was the same size as their monstor squads. They stuck to their production methods throughout the run of the game instead of learning and adjusting. Interesting enough, the privately owned retail internet sales of brand new mini's were priced according to demand. In a case that included four packages of four different sets of figures, you could buy one set of 5 or 6 minis for $3.99, while others might cost you $15.99. It had nothing to do with rares or not rares, they made the same amount of everything in a set. It had to do with the Internet retailers knowing what would be in demand. The retailers had a much better knowledge of the game and demand for each particular package of minis than Hasbro/WOTC did.
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Contributor
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One other thing that helps random packs is that they have a single SKU, so a retailer only has a single product to order/display, and therefore can "safely" order more of them. If you have 4-6 different products, it is harder for retailers to find a place to sell them all, and they will order less of any given pack.
Thanks to those who answered my question.
I think it's safe to say almost all of us would prefer to be able to pick and choose what miniatures we want and have them at a reasonable price.
But unfortunately that isn't just how the market is now (at least with pre-painted miniatures). It appears we either get the cheaper randomized boosters or a more expensive visible package of minis.
Sure, I would also prefer to pick and choose my minis at a good price, but I've come to accept that isn't the case. And to be honest, the randomized booster boxes don't bother me too much as there is a part of me who couldn't wait to see what minis I got in my box, and if I got that elusive rare I've been wanting.
Right now we just don't know how these minis (for the Beginner Box) will be produced. But I am guessing it will be randomized packs being cheaper to put on the shelf and therefore a better chance of higher sales.
To be honest, even though this has only been a one-shot deal right now for minis related to the Beginner box, but I would be ecstatic if it led to randomized miniature sets (similar to DDM). Because if we do receive more miniatures (sets) later on, you can almost be assured it will be randomized.
Extras/unwanted minis get sold, helping to supply the secondary market, subsidize your minis purchases, and fund additional minis purchases.
No they don't; unless they're rares or part of a large bundle. A Rookie Vulture has no trade or sale value. As part of an auction pack you might get $0.10 if you're lucky. Nothing here is helping you because the secondary market isn't driven by supply.
Unfortunately, this sounds harsh, but you can't please everyone, and I'd rather see some people pleased, than nobody pleased in an attempt to be "fair". Such is life in the collecting world.
It is harsh because you're excluding the majority of your fan base to appease a small elite crowd that has the money and space to make full use of the model in place. Also, this is a gaming market, not a collecting market. It's the desire to appease the collector rather than the gamer that has caused these these markets to fail.
The secondary market helps drive the primary market. This is something that people need to realize for many products. Michael Stackpole published a rant a long time ago complaining about the used book market, something publishers have actively tried to end at multiple times in history. They, too, don't get it. A thriving secondary market gives you a place to sell your unwanted wares, gives those who can't or won't pay...
It does none of those things. Sure, if you're one of the lucky 1% to pull multiple White Lantern Hal Jordan's and can afford to travel to mulptiple cons around the country to get coveted and highly priced LE's, and assuming that the FLGS in your area (assuming you have one) sponsor's events to get prize support then you're golden. Otherwise it's, "Neener, neener." And the secondary market doesn't help people who can't pay. The secondary market is more expensive than the primary market because supply has nothing to do with the pricing structure. It's those $50 to $100 figs that drive people away; it certainly doesn't drive them in.
Supporting a marketing model, like HeroClix, that has failed multiple times is not a good idea. Relying on a third party publisher to bail you out everytime your never-changing strategy fails is not smart. And HeroClix was OOP for a year, they were owned, but they didn't have the money to produce anything.
AS for Mike Stackpole, I only met him once; at a writing seminar at GenCon. Moast of which was spent about him talking about all the clever things he did in his novel and how we should all emulate him. Sort of soured me on seminars, especially for how expensive they are compared to regular events.
I would point out that HeroClix is still thriving with a well-managed company behind them
They've had that before and it didn't help. What's going to happen to PF mini's when NECA, as has every single company before them including the company's founder, abandon's them?
As many have pointed out, visible non-random packs just don't work. It's those highly desirable "rares" that drive a lot of purchases, and ultimately, they subsidize a lot of the other minis.
It doesn't subsidize anything. The only people who benefit from that are those with the money to buy five cases at a pop and then sell off the rares to recoup the cost. But most gamers can't afford that, especially nowadays. Which, again, benefits the well off collector while screwing the average gamer. And Heroscape sold just fine (so well in fact that places like Wal-Mart and Toys "R" Us not only stocked it but regularly sold out of it) until WotC turned the entire product into a run of D&D has-beens.
If the visible non-random packs really would sell in the numbers that some folks posit, then Reaper's Legendary Encounters line would be far more expansive, and you'd probably see bigger packs for less money than we currently do.
Reaper made a mistake, no doubt about it. They clearly wanted to get involved in the plastic minis line but were far too timid in doing so. Their initial release was only a hanful of packages that didn't contain the qunatity or variety to generate any interest. Many people aren't even aware that Reaper has prepainted plastic as many FLGS's don't bother carrying them; even if they carry the Reaper metals.
Heroscape's biggest failing was their production runs on "unique" figures (hero's) was the same size as their monstor squads.
That was annoying but it wasn't the biggest mistake they made and it didn't stop people from buying (and it wasn't just the Heroes, it was any non-common squad). Their biggest failure came when they abandoned the entire purpose of the game and switched to D&D mini's only for their last (three I believe) set releases. That undermined the entire multi-genre aspect of the game and it was even more insulting wheh the rebased the mini's to be "more compatible" with the D&D ones.
I don't mind random. I mind the screwed up distributions that have always gone hand in hand with random minis, especially D&D minis. As someone trying to fill out the entire summon monster spell roster, I'm feeling the hate for the DDM system.
I don't know how WotC marketed the minis at the end, but originally, they were released, not as a game aid, but as a skimish style board game to replace the popular but ultimately failed Chainmail line of metals. So they were never interested in giving you 20 kobolds for your encounters because that wasn't the purpose of the product. That's why those spell lists never got filled out; it was never their intent.
I'd also like to point out that there is a difference between something being collectible and being random. The two are not synonymous and a product can be one without being the other. for a game to be both random and truly collectible, the pieces have to maintain their value integrity over time; something that neither HeroClix nor SWM, especially with their rare "collectibles", ever did.
SJ
I had a whole huge reply that I typed over, and I don't care to re-type.
I'll simply say, the market has proven your arguments incorrect and inaccurate.
The only way that pre-painted plastic miniatures will sell in enough volume to be profitable while still remaining affordable is random blind packs with chase rares - preferrably accompanied with a skirmish game to further drive the market and provide alternate uses for them.
If they'd sell any other way successfully, they would have.
DDM didn't start losing steam until they screwed up the skirmish game (conversion from 1.0 to 2.0) and all other attempts to kick-start it failed miserably.
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If they'd sell any other way successfully, they would have.
One of my favorite non-filthy and non-offensive jokes goes thusly:
Two economists are walking and talking when one of them spots a dollar lying on the sidewalk. As they walk by, the first economist asks the second one if he saw the same thing. The second economist replies, "Obviously not! If there had actually been a dollar on the sidewalk, someone would have already picked it up!"
I'm not sure I can think of any attempts to sell pre-painted plastic miniatures that tried to hit the trifecta of good, nonrandom, *and* cheap other than Legendary Encounters. Rackham's attempts with Confrontation and AT-43 fell afoul of unrelated problems - although they weren't, by any stretch of the imagination, cheap. Legendary Encounters recycles old metal sculpts, which I'm sure helps keep it cheap on Reaper's side of things, but I do wonder if the small size of the line indicates that it's "not profitable" or just "not profitable enough", which are two different ballgames. But they *do* sell.
I'm not sure I can think of any attempts to sell pre-painted plastic miniatures that tried to hit the trifecta of good, nonrandom, *and* cheap other than Legendary Encounters. Rackham's attempts with Confrontation and AT-43 fell afoul of unrelated problems - although they weren't, by any stretch of the imagination, cheap. Legendary Encounters recycles old metal sculpts, which I'm sure helps keep it cheap on Reaper's side of things, but I do wonder if the small size of the line indicates that it's "not profitable" or just "not profitable enough", which are two different ballgames. But they *do* sell.
Good joke! :)
As far as the minis go, Bryan from Reaper indicated that Legendary Encounters are selling "very well" in his post here.
He indicates that Reaper is expanding the line, and they have faith in it, which is awesome, but their seeming general dismissal by a lot of folks in these threads indicates that the line isn't meeting their needs - I would guess either in breadth of selection, or, more likely, price.
Now, that isn't to say that Reaper's prices are bad, by any stretch of the imagination. For the style of packaging (visible, non-random), I think the pricing is quite good. I just think that most people are completely unrealistic, and think that we should be paying, at most, a buck an orc/kobold/skeleton/whatever.
They want a huge gang of orcs, say a dozen of them, which is going to cost them $40+ from the Legendary Encounters list pricing. This is probably a shock when you consider that you were able to buy a dozen orcs from the DDM secondary market for $5 or $10 when they were plentiful.
I might be alone in this, but I'd rather pay $5 for 1 non-random pre-painted plastic mini that I know I want than $5 for 10 random pre-painted plastic minis for the chance to get what I want. If I don't get what I want it's just trash to me.
I know that this will work because it's how the unpainted metal mini market has worked for years.
I fail to understand why people insist that pre-painted plastic minis cannot sell in the same manner and at the same price point as unpainted metal minis.
Or is there always the assumption that plastic has to be cheap and low quality?
I fail to understand why people insist that pre-painted plastic minis cannot sell in the same manner and at the same price point as unpainted metal minis.
For the same reason that you're still buying metal minis. In low volume, metal is cheaper than plastic.
Plastic molds are reportedly more expensive, and don't last as long.
There's also a value perception issue - metal is "better" than plastic. Is it heavy? Then it's expensive, put it down. A lot of folks wouldn't pay the same price for pre-painted plastic as they would metal.
Yet again, this is why the secondary market is an important and viable solution for those that won't purchase in the primary market. You can buy exactly what you want. The only downside is that you're not necessarily going to be able to get that mini that you really want for a low, low price of only $4.99.
I guess what I fail to understand is the insistence of some that pre-painted plastic minis CAN sell in the same manner and price point (or lower price point) of unpainted metal miniatures.
I ask this with no snark or malice: Has there ever been an example of this happening to give people this idea? Surely, were it possible, someone would have done this at some point in the history of gaming.