*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.
I've been reading the lively debate in other threads re Vow of Poverty, and took the time to discuss it with my good lady wife. Which led to "What is a monk for?", "What do they do?" and "Has anyone ever gone WOOT! when as fellow player reveals they plan to play....a monk?"
Picture the situation: players round the table, new campaign, furious scribbling has ceased and the players one by one reveal....
"I'm going to play
...a cleric"
Party response: Sighs of releif. "Oh good, we have healing!" "That saves money on potions" "When do you get raise dead? Shall we start a fund pot now?"
"...a fighter/barbarian"
Party response: Smiles all round. "Oh good, someone to take my damage for me." "Yay, you stand in front." "Damn, he'll hog all the magic weapons...but frankly I can't see you as a mage anyway."
"...a ranger"
Party response: Sage nods. "Oh good. Ranged attacks and countyside navigation." "Wilderness campaign sorted." "Yey we can track!"
"...a bard"
Party response: Some shrugs. "Oh good, knowledges sorted." "Buff me with your song baby!" "Can he sneak too?"
"...a rogue"
Party response: Nods all round. "Oh good, traps n doors for you then." "Sneak work and knives...good luck." "Give my fighter a shout when they see ya!"
"...a wizard/sorcerer"
Party response: Raised eyebrows and distinct lack of surprise. "Oh good.. we'll protect you until you get fireball, then you make me stuff..right?" "Don't forget the utility spells this time!"
"... a druid"
Party response: *Thinks*..Animal loving, cleric hating freak... but says... "Oh good, some healing, nature skills and blammy stuff...but if he turns into a wolf he sleeps in the barn."
"... a monk"
Party response: Sigh. "Oh"
*Thinks* Ok, heals..himself. Runs away very fast..by himself. Hits people but lets others take the agro..the dodgey bas****. Will probably sit outside and makes us feel guilty about the victory feast and post adventure spend up.
AND if he actually gets that vow of poverty he'll make us walk or pay for the carriage. AND he'll be so damn Lawful he won't let us change sides halfway through the adventure (we were just celebrating that no-one was playing the paladin...even though we had his blindfold ready).
So, if anyone can tell me (other than his obvious sense of humour and good looks) what the Monk does for his fellow party members I believe there is space below...
I always thought that the Monk class was just a ham-fisted attempt to put something oriental into the game. That was during the WotC run though, where everything execept the monk and oni(ogre mage) where the only oriental things offered at the start.
When I saw it in Pathfinder and read their campaign world, it made sense to offer something that was from a distinct region of their world.
Game play wise, Monks are suppose to be mage killers, which I saw often with WotC, I haven't really payed attention to the Pathfinder monk so I'm not sure if it still is a mage killer.
give the monk a fancy robe with arcane writings on it, a raven/rat/animal, and a big expensive book.
Then wait for the Orc who think "hm, robe+book=mage= I should target", and then pity the fool.
A monk doesn't really fill a role, that's why he can be the unexpected Jack in a Box.
Combat maneuvers. Long distance messenger. Useful in social situations that discourage open weaponry. Navigates difficult terrain without magic.
I was kind of searching for things the monk brought to the mix for others. Combat maneuvers tend to be for self. Spell casting classes and the ever charming bard tend to dominate social situations which discourage open weaponry, the monk may be able to navigate difficult terrain by himself, but that doesn't help the other poor saps in the party. A guy on a horse covers a good deal of ground as a messenger, if you send the monk then he is once more off by himself.
LillithsThrall and Richard Leonhart: Those are nice ideas, and thanks... but should the party response really be "oh good, bait!" ;)
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I was kind of searching for things the monk brought to the mix for others. Combat maneuvers tend to be for self. Spell casting classes and the ever charming bard tend to dominate social situations which discourage open weaponry, the monk may be able to navigate difficult terrain by himself, but that doesn't help the other poor saps in the party. A guy on a horse covers a good deal of ground as a messenger, if you send the monk then he is once more off by himself.
You've obviously never had a monk hold an enemy down for the rest of the party to beat on. :P Or disarm the enemy giant, neutering his damage.
Add LT's bit about being the first in melee as well. He gets there first to distract the enemy from the casters and other warriors approaching behind.
If you need to get across difficult terrain to an objective, the monk can do that, especially if it's an objective only one person needs to get to. (To retrieve a golden idol on a pedestal for example.)
How does a guy on a horse invalidate the fact that the monk can be a long distance messenger? Especially if he takes a ki power that removes fatigue?
Again, how does the fact that the wizard and bard are good in weaponless social situations invalidate the monk being good in them too?
I mostly play in low-level games. When I hear that someone wants to play a monk, it's about the same as hearing someone wants to play a TWF user. It could be decent or it could be terrible, depending on how it's set up.
TWF with 11 Str, 18 Dex and 10 Con = "uh-oh..."
TWF with 18 Str, 15 Dex and 14 Con = "welcome, friend!"
How does a guy on a horse invalidate the fact that the monk can be a long distance messenger? Especially if he takes a ki power that removes fatigue?Again, how does the fact that the wizard and bard are good in weaponless social situations invalidate the monk being good in them too?
I am not trying to invalidate anything. The monks can indeed do all the things you say. Sorcerers and Bards are however more charismatic by nature and should have the advantage in the afformentioned social situation. The monk would likely be at best a third choice here.
As to the long distance messenger I'm just not sure sbout sending one member of the party that far on his tod, even if he can outrun a horse...also leaving us one guy short.
However I am enjoying seeing the uses people put their monks to, thank you for your responses.
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I've played Monks often. Using Improved Grapple and Trip, I've taken down threats that I couldnt necessarily kill, but I kept them occupied long enough for someone else to do it. Plus I also acted as a scout if there wasnt a ranger or rogue available. Monks are also a Rogues best friend. Good for Flanking and Stunning Fist (Hello Sneak Attack!). Plus, why shouldnt you want someone who wont want most of the gear you guys find? (Except maybe the mage)
By the way, it's "I'm going to play a rogue!" that tends to make me feel doubtful about a PC.
For some people, that's code for: "Hurray! I'm an inferior melee fighter who's slightly better with traps (which may or may not even exist in this adventure)! Plus all the other players get to sit around and wait while I scout ahead!"
A Troll title is a troll title no matter what disclaimer you try to put on it.*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.
You might be right, but the intention (therefore the disclaimer) is to engender a good natured debate on what is percieved, in my immediate gameplaying circle, as a quite self contained individualist.
Aazen's "Monk as a rogue's best friend" for instance could change a mindset or two.
What use are Monks anyway?
*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.
Yeah, and this is not an insult, but you are a (insert some bad insult here).
That's like "No offence, but..." Everything that comes after "no offence" is offensive almost by definition.
So what use are you anyway? :P
"Has anyone ever gone WOOT! when as fellow player reveals they plan to play....a monk?"
Maybe not, but I can make GMs s+$% their pants with the words "I'll play a monk".
Plan on making a BBEG? Better make him either colossal or bigger or have several of them. Because if not, that guy you planned on giving the party a hard time will spend all the time following the init rolls with his face in his dirt, with a guy in jammies shouting "Stop hitting yourself! You gotta stop hitting yourself!"
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This is just...beautiful.give the monk a fancy robe with arcane writings on it, a raven/rat/animal, and a big expensive book.
Then wait for the Orc who think "hm, robe+book=mage= I should target", and then pity the fool.
Use the new monk archtype from Ultimate Magic and you can use your ki for a few spells...
That's like "No offence, but..." Everything that comes after "no offence" is offensive almost by definition.
No offence, but.. I found the second half of your post quite amusing, and more in keeping with what I hoped responses would be like.
Monks can do lots of things very well. I'm currently playing a monk and he hits harder than any other member of our party and has the second highest AC after the cleric w/ shield. He's built as a grapple money and his CMB/D is very high and once I hit next level and take Defensive Maneuver Training my CMD is going to be so high it will be impossible to get out of grapples once I get my hands on them.
In the previous game our monk was a Dex build, he was a Halfling and the DM literally had to design every encounter just trying to hit him. On top of that his Stealth and Acrobatics was so high he would just waltz through entire enemy towns completely unnoticed and scout the entire area before the party gets there.
Also, something most don't realize, Monks are a WIS based class and have Perception as a class skill, Clerics don't. So chances are that the Monk has the highest Perception in the group, plus the increased speed means that he can walk 50 ft ahead of the group see the BBEG and get back to the party before combat begins
I have a monk in the group I GM. His player is totally new to the system. And I don't think that his player has quite figured out the exact best approach to combat yet, either. He's played the PC Monk from 1 to almost 6th level.
But I'm both dreading and hoping for the day when the light-bulb goes off. I'm NOT wanting my BBEG fights that I want to be a climactic battle to end with the Monk grabbing the BBEG, pinning him, tying him up and then the Barbarian (whos been slaying the fodder) to step in an coup-de-grace. Even if the BBEG breaks the grapple every turn (because a Monk's CMB is usually better than his CMD), it still occupying the biggest threat on the battlefield.
A Monk is almost like an at will Hold Monster spell (with concentration required) that works in a lot of situations, generally.
Paizo intended for them to be a defensive class, which I don't think worked out too well for them.
To me the monk is a more mobile version of the fighter with better saves but a bit worse at combat.
I'm more likely to be concerned that a certain player is bringing a particular concept than the concept itself.
I have friends who are great roleplayers, but can't handle the resource accounting necessary to play a caster with full access to an entire list of spells (e.g. cleric, druid, beguiler)
out group size might be the source of this, as I play one game with seven players + DM and another with six + DM. When you've got the bases covered, then you can have multiple switch-hitter concepts like Monk or Bart which can excel at versatility rather than falling short of holding down the sole tank/skirmisher role.
I've been using your character sheet for a while now. It is awesome. Thanks
You're welcome!
Also what character sheet is that, Hama/
It's my personal character sheet, which I also put online. You can fine it in the Pathfinder DB
It's tailored to my personal preference, done exactly the way I think is best fitting my notation style. Not for everyone, but some people have similar preferences.
I play a monk in one of my campaigns and he play's fairly well. He is a dwarf with both the drunken master and the sacred mountain archetypes. I rolled really well for his attributes- after racial modifiers he has an 18 in strength, constitution and wisdom, so that might have something to do with his success- but here's the thing- he has next to no magical equipment (bracer of armor +1, bag of holding filled with scotch, no belt no amulet) and he outperforms the TWF ranger who is one level higher than him.
The thing with monks is they aren't just MAD- they rely on those stats more than anyone- a ranger's AC doesn't just come from his dex- he has armor making his AC much easier to raise, but between my Monk's high dex, high wisdom and sacred mountain abilities he owns the ranger in the AC department (before I get much farther the monk is level four, a the ranger is level five). Things get really fun when I fight defensively and spend ki to boost my AC.
My monk is as accurate as the ranger when full attacking and usually attacks more often due to the extra attack he gets when burning ki points (and with drunken ki points he can stretch those points out pretty far). Funnily enough, they have the same HP even though the monk is a level behind and has a smaller hit die.
The monk IS a front line fighter. Is he the best one? God no, but he can do the job as well as needed, and that's fine. My monk holds up his end- and sometimes more. And that's fun.
Monk got help from APG and UM, and more could be needed from UC.
Said this, I've seen a monk played very effectively by a player. Core only.
If you want to play a monk, you must think outside the box. If you want to play a monk as a fighter, simply go to play a fighter.
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This is just...beautiful.give the monk a fancy robe with arcane writings on it, a raven/rat/animal, and a big expensive book.
Then wait for the Orc who think "hm, robe+book=mage= I should target", and then pity the fool.
This was an old trick in the days of the Dark Age of Camelot MMO. "Hey look, it's a squishy wizard. Why is he beating the living tar out of me with a staff? Oh, he's a friar, oops.
Combat maneuvers. Long distance messenger. Useful in social situations that discourage open weaponry. Navigates difficult terrain without magic.
Ranger. All of these.
Monks, however, make kick-ass monks.
Monk MADness remains a problem. I just think that assign them a specific role is a limitation.
Irrelevant. We're talking about how monks can contribute, not how other classes can contribute better.Combat maneuvers. Long distance messenger. Useful in social situations that discourage open weaponry. Navigates difficult terrain without magic.Ranger. All of these.
A discussion of how Monks can contribute cannot be separated from a discussion about how other classes can contribute the SAME things BETTER. Especially since the topic is "What use are Monks anyway?"
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A discussion of how Monks can contribute cannot be separated from a discussion about how other classes can contribute the SAME things BETTER.
Yes, it can. You just refuse to.
From the OP.
So, if anyone can tell me (other than his obvious sense of humour and good looks) what the Monk does for his fellow party members I believe there is space below...
Nothing in here mentions 'and how does he do it better than anyone else?'
If I donate ten dollars and you donate a hundred, that doesn't mean I haven't donated.
A discussion of how Monks can contribute cannot be separated from a discussion about how other classes can contribute the SAME things BETTER.Yes, it can. You just refuse to.
From the OP.
So, if anyone can tell me (other than his obvious sense of humour and good looks) what the Monk does for his fellow party members I believe there is space below...Nothing in here mentions 'and how does he do it better than anyone else?'
If I donate ten dollars and you donate a hundred, that doesn't mean I haven't donated.
From the topic of the thread "What use are Monks anyway?"
I answered that question - all proposed 'answers' can be performed better by other classes which makes the real answer "they aren't."The REAL use of Monks is trap trigger. All good saves + Evasion + AC being tied to two different saves makes them PERFECT at setting off traps. If you don't have a Rogue, you have to have a Monk.
Not every class is for everyone and this is particularly true of the monk (and Paladin too for that matter).*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.
+ Infinity.
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I'm currently playing in a homebrew world. The entire party is comprised of Monks. Our GM thought it'd be fun to unleash 4 martial artists on the world and so far it's been great fun.
We have most of the archetypes accounted for and some multiclassing making us very effective.
Party= Human Cleric 1 Monk of healing hand 5
Half-Orc fighter 1 Hungry Ghost Monk 5
Dwarf Monk of the Sacred Mountain 6
Dwarf Monk 6 (Sacred Mountain, Monk of 4 Winds, Open Hand)
We started off in a once per decade tournament held equally by the various martial arts schools in the world.
While there, a powerful artifact of Irori (the trophy the winning school keeps for the decade) was stolen and now were out in Orc territory trying to track it down.
we all have different builds from the same point buy making us all very different in terms of mechanics but we have at least 1 person who can excell at whatever we'e come up against.
Short answer: If you know what you're doing, Monk's are awesome!
*Warning* This is not a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of Monkhood.
No, just a flame, troll, bear baiting, lollipop stealing attempt to have a go at the age old institute of 3.X class design.
I checked the PRD. Ioun stone bonuses are untyped. So, yes, they stacked.
Huh?
Incandescent blue sphere +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom
The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Wisdom of +2
They have never stacked. . . ever.