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The Inner Sea guide hints that Cheliax is gearing up for conquest. Let along retaking old colony holdings now gone rogue there is the threat of the madness of Galt spilling into their borders. Or maybe a land claim fight with proud Taldor.
So, what happens if it fight starts?
Andoran would mobilze obviously, as would Taldor if its boarders were directly attacked.
I've been pondering the final outcome of such a fight. It's obvious Cheliax is spoiling for a fight. Years of disapointment in their dead patron god, devilish prodding, and loads of pride could make for an interesting war based campaign.
Any thought on how the various factions would react? I've been studying the nations, but not the bigger picture.
Thoughts on such a campaign? The fallout?
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If the madness of Galt threatened to spill into Chiliax the Quenn would mobilize her army and lance the festering boil of Chaos that is Galt.
Chiliax is a Lawful Evil society highly tyranical and would not tolerate a Nation like Galt to cross its boarders and sow rebelion amoung Her Subjects. Do not for get everyone in Chiliax knows their palce and who is above them and most importantly who is below them.
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With her army; The Hell Knights and an army of summoned Devils, the chaos bringers of Galt would stand no chance and their heads would soon adorn the tratiors gate on Queen Abrogail's castle. As to restoring order to or former vassel states that is somethng we are contmplating but as yet have not come to a decesion on. Fear the Might of Chiliax.
All Hail Asmodeus.
The above is a paid comercial anoucment from the Order of the Scorge
Paravicar Morgrym Rufano
Ps you may have noted they I did not mention Taldore or Andoran they are benath our notice and we would grind thier decadant, chaos tingned bodies benath our boots if they dared cross our boarders.
Besides our Infernal spies inform me that the mghty Padasih Empire will soon engulf Oppara.
Remember, too, that Cheliax is basically run by devils. (The queen is human, yes, but her advisor has been around for centuries.) When they say "long term planning", they mean long term planning. So the "gearing up" bit could very well take decades - some would argue that it already has, as Andoran is, what, 50 years old? - or even centuries.
That being said, I think the next campaign I run in Golarion will be a Cheliax-conquest war.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I would argue that Taldor is the least of Cheliax's concerns. Galt and Andoran are higher priorities, from a LE perspective, IMHO.
Now for Taldor to counter that move...
Andoran is again, the plaything. Funding more 'liberation raids' in the west, while increasing trade with the eastern half. Possibly even setting up an 'underground railroad' with Taldan embassies. A really gutsy southern Taldan noble could even make a 'quiet treaty' with Qadria, letting followers of the Dawnflower safe passage to enter Andoran en route to Cheliax. If you can get Andoran busy enough to make Cheliax react, you pull a Stalin-Hitler-in-Poland move, and move into eastern Andoran to 'protect it' (bonus if you have a treaty with Cheliax to divide the country in just such a case.
This would require a more active Taldor though, I doubt that happens, unless we get a change in leadership.
Heck, I was Queen Abigale or however you spell it, I'd be trying to encourage Eutropia to take the throne. Either Taldor falls to civil war (which is a win for Cheliax) or you've just helped the new Empress take power and are on good terms (and thus influence) with her.
Andoran has a border with Galt, but Cheliax doesn't. Even Cheliax's province, Isger, doesn't have a border with Galt. Given that Galt is a landlocked country, I really don't see how Cheliax can invade Galt without going through somewhere else first or spending an eye-watering sum on magical transportation (establishing multiple gates perhaps????) of some sort...
Also, due to Galt-Taldor border, Cheliax might be interested in quietly supporting Galt revolution, especially more expansive elements of revolutionary movement, that would stir problems for Taldor and force it to focus their attention on northern border. Or even sponsor "Galt"-based revolutionary conspirators working to spread revolution to Taldor.
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With her army; The Hell Knights and an army of summoned Devils, the chaos bringers of Galt would stand no chance and their heads would soon adorn the tratiors gate on Queen Abrogail's castle. As to restoring order to or former vassel states that is somethng we are contmplating but as yet have not come to a decesion on. Fear the Might of Chiliax.
All Hail Asmodeus.
Yeah, just remember this how how the whole of Europe felt when they first attacked the French revolution in 1790.
See what happened next.
Or better yet WWI : "You'll all be home come harvest time".
Sounds familiar to some ?
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i very much doubt we will see a war between cheliax & andoran because both are factions in path fither society. same holds true for any conflicts with society factions. maybe a society faction and a non society faction.
Your thinking offical PFS play, then no. But I'm talking about "my" Golarion. And the Pathfinders couldnt' stop a war is Cheliax really wanted territory. They're spoiling for a fight with someone. I just think if you look at how the deck is stacked we're looking a large war.
If Cheliax were to go to war of its own volition, the likely targets would be Andoran, Korvosa, Rahadoum, Thuvia, or Sargava. Andoran for obvious reasons, Korvosa to take back what is "theirs", Rahadoum for strategic and religious purposes, Thuvia for expansion and the sun orchid elixir, and Sargava for the wealth of Mwangi and reclamation. Cheliax generally discounts Nidal and Isger, Molthune is protected by mountains and would be a damn hard fight, and everything else is too far away or not worth the effort.
Now other factions attacking Cheliax, and bringing it to war, would be Andoran, Taldor, Rahadoum, Galt, and possibly Isger. Andoran for obvious reasons would be one of the main instigators. Taldor would only launch a war if they got enough nobles to support it and Andoran joined them. Rahadoum would launch a war of their own volition, but they would look for allies first. Galt would answer the call, but only Andoran whom they have similar philosophies with. Isger would only attack Cheliax when it looks favorable, but I believe they would betray the diabolists in the end. How Lady Kaltessa Iyis (high priestess of Mammon) responds to that would be an interesting development. Everyone else isn't powerful enough to pick a fight with Cheliax, too far away, or not concerned.
Of note is Nidal, who would support Cheliax in the war. If Cheliax wins, Nidal wins. If Cheliax loses, Nidal will make its move to seize what it can.
So how many members of the governments of the above named enemy nations do you think are in Asmodeus' pocket?
Another thought. How many Asmodeus cults in other nations would act like terrorist cells assisting Cheliax "liberation"?
Very few, I'd wager. Terrorism isn't Asmodeus' style.
Although they certainly would seek to infiltrate and subvert the government of those nations in order facilitate an orderly transition back into the Empire when the time was ripe.
One thought that occurred to me in reading this thread was that in some ways this may not so much resemble Golarian War I but instead a Golarian version of the Napoleonic Wars. Which leads naturally to Galt.
Perhaps Taldor in an alliance with some of the Galtan (correct?) exiles in the River Kingdoms attacks Galt in a weakened state (plague? big evil monster strikes?). Galt begins on the defensive, that is until a charismatic general arises, leading the defense of the country against it's enemies. I honestly was thinking of making this NPC a halfling or dwarf, Le Petit General indeed.
Being the proverbial spark, our charismatic general begins his rise to power, then taking the fight to Taldor and the River Kingdoms. At this point, Qadira, seeing the opening, strikes against Taldor (perhaps without the approval of the Padishah Emperor...more political issues). Andoran, for the moment staying officially neutral, begins to funnel resources to Galt. Andoran hopes this new leader will finally lead Galt out of the horror of the revolution and into the light of freedom with them.
Now, before I go on too long, I picture this General being similar to say Anakin in the prequels, high on idealism and how things should be, but gradually falling to his dark side so to speak (much like Napoleon, crowning himself Emperor, tearing up Galt's constitution if there is one...etc). Yeah I had plenty more ideas for this (this thread inspired a full campaign's worth of ideas and hopefully some short stories when I get the chance).
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A "world war" indeed. Cheliax and Taldor both have long-held ambitions of imperialism. If memory serves Taldor has fielded the Inner Sea equivalent of the Crusades with Nine (?) Armies of Exploration and at one point encompassed nearly the whole northern shoreline of the Inner Sea.
Cheliax I would guess would by influence most subtle establish one or more puppets within the ongoing 'Red Revolution'. At some point, the balance of power will tip, spilling the heated coals of misguided ambition into the powder keg of open conflict.
Andoran means well, but are short-sighted, relying upon intelligence from their "independant agents". Taldor, considered decadant and languishing in glories past, are not to be discounted if 'properly motivated'.
What at first seems to be minor skirmishes and localized power struggles - say, in the River Kingdoms - could sprout like leprosy as any number of charnel flowers come into blossom.
Treerazer and his mini-onions marshal considerable forces, distracting Kyonin's elven aristocracy from external affairs for a protracted period. A new king is crowned in the Five Kings Mountains and a quiet jihad is declared against all perceived threats within and beneath that realm, further exacerbating the strained relations with Kyonin.
Absalom, blinded by greed and confident in its lack of a land border, becomes the Switzerland of the region, eagerly laundering money and profiting from a newly signed mercantile accord with the sovereign states around the Inner Sea proper. LOTS of diplomatic intrigue, espionage and logistical arrangements with the 'neutral' party follows.
The initial 'flash' of yet another civil war in Galt goes scarcely noticed. Until it keeps going on. Both / all of the sides in the conflict grow desperate. Some resort to diabolism, some to fell necromancy, others to hiring Andoran "freedom fighter" armies as highly-motivated mercenaries. Taldan nobles along the northern border shared with Andoran and Galt seek to close the land border, aggressively patrol the Sellene River and hire out units of heavy cavalry (in order to season those troops in battle you see).
The Sellene River is a major bone of contention between Andoran and Taldor. That Taldor has a hostile southern border is one of the checks keeping another Taldan Crusade from being launched.
As the Galtan conflict rages on, some of the "petty" warlords in the River Kingdoms see easy pickings to the south and east and form a confederacy. Perhaps Choral the Conqueror returns to Brevoy. After sweeping aside opposition in his own back yard, his eye swings south away from dangerous Numeria to his west and across the tangled web of petty robber-knights across to Galt.
Choral's forces swing south, either annexing or destroying the River Kingdoms that stand in his path. Refugees flee to the west or south or into the eastern steppes. Only those fleeing south are heard from - it seems that the Conqueror has returned!
as it so happens, one overly enthusiastic river boarding goes badly, finally igniting war between Andoran and Taldor. Perhaps a cargo of liberated hobbits from Cheliax were impounded by rightful law under Taldan aegis. Perhaps the overeager knight was shived by a desperate hobbit. No one knows what happened that awful night when the longship Bratticus and the Andoran cargo ship both burned to the waterline in a hideous inferno. The only survivor was horribly burned, dying from madness and shock after washing ashore on the Andorian side of the river.
The southern satraps, seeing Taldor creak to life once more, launches a crusade of its own against Taldor, the hammer blow not unexpected. It is underestimated.
Andoran overly presses its pereceived advantage against Taldor and moves in, eager to meet the satrapies' armies in the middle of Taldor. Opparra is the jewel of Taldor, and Andoran means to snatch the glittering prize.
Chelish ambitions are clear, their patience considerable. Four weeks to the day after Andoran declares war on Taldor, the Imperial Navy and Army are seemingly everywhere. Naval forces with Hellknight marines sweep into the pirates' waters, sacking the "city", looting everything they can carry then razing it before moving to bring Sargova back into line and begin an aggressive campaign to secure Chelish holdings on Garund. The sun orchid elixir is the top prize.
An expeditionary force sent to Korvosa is soundly thrashed by a coalition force of Korvosans, Varisians and Shoanti barbarians. Not eager to surrender, the bulk of this army group deploys into dangerous lands south of Korvosa. Several years of bitter struggle ensues, although unexpected Viking corsairs plague the Chelish logistics before an even greater force of Varisian skirmishers, Shoanti shock troops, Viking longships and mammoth-riding super-heavy cavalry route the Chelish army.
The main thrust of Chelish aggression is a three-pronged offensive, one by sea, two by land. The sea offensive is presaged by concentrated effort to eradicate or sieze foreign sea ports with shipyard facilities.
Andoran and Taldor, even the satrapies, do not want the Chelaxian Empire to succeed. Can the combative parties be made to set aside their differences and unite against a common foe? Can the High King of Dwarves be persuaded to rebuff Chelish infiltration and strike when Cheliax does not expect it? Can your Heroes shatter Treerazer's offensive and turn the tide against him swiftly enough? Will the madness ravaging Galt and the northeastern lands be put to an end, or will Choral be considered the 'least evil' and ignored in the short term?
Only your campaign will tell!
*pure, unmitigated awesome*
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. That was some kickass stuff, right there.
*pure, unmitigated awesome*You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. That was some kickass stuff, right there.
Many thanks, WarriorPoet!:)
I think this would probably have to be spread over more than one AP to write it out all proper, depending on how one "builds" things I suppose.
EDIT: To expand further, especially if you run APs as the back bone of your campaign (as I do), this could 'weave' in between the APs as a developing 'back story'. Especially in the long-term AP of Kingmaker you could use elements like these to 'liven things up'.
And of course there's no predicting what your own PCs will want to do ... which is half of the fun of such a campaign!
Also, it's clear none of you have looked at the crucial issue:
If the entire world is at war, then why can't events fall down so that Andoran and Cheliax are united against a common enemy?
And - the question of relevance to heroes: what nefarious plots go on because the major powers are "distracted" by the war?
But - I've seen numerous "wars", and I think that although Golarion is highly detailed, many armchair generals are ignoring the obvious. Even with mass combat rules, we don't have enough details on the armies of the world.
AND - this is an event for a year or two from our side, so expect at least two AP set in the Golarion wars, if it starts.
Yes, sadly, IF it starts. Nothing in the Golarion write-ups indicates the "too many people eating, guess it's wartime again" that happened in real-Earth history.
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I think you guys/gals severely overestimate Cheliax's power, unity (loyalty to itself), and position in the world.
Depends upon how one spins things. Cheliax is a lot like a hybrid of pre-WW1's Germany with pre-WW2's Germany with the advantage of - in European terms - Iberian geography with the added advantage of controlling Golarion's equivalent of Gibraltar. They've had the better part of a century to amass material for war and have long been aggressively expanding their navy.
Andoran, Taldor and most of the other Inner Sea states do not have nearly as well-developed naval arms. Absalom seems to be the only other state with the capacity to combat them on the high seas. Absalom's interests at this point seem to be pretty isolationist. None of these states have colonial interests, unlike Cheliax.
Varisia is a hodge-podge of basically city-states. Korvosa has long held itself as nominally independant of Cheliax, although specific campaigns may have differences from "canon" depending upon how their specific CotCT campaign turned out. Magnimar is probably the most powerful of the Varisian city-states.
Ambition and a well-honed patience combine into something quite formidable on the grand stage of world events. The Inner Sea has been relatively quiescent for - going on memory only - several decades.
If anything, Cheliax is in a superb strategic position. It has solid control of the naval chokepoint between the western sea and the Inner Sea. If she chooses to close this chokepoint, there are only three options: wait it out, sail around or combat with a navy eager to be handed causus belli.
From their strategic position, they have excellent border protection from natural terrain in the form of rivers, mountains and forests, perhaps even a marsh or swamp. Hellknights assuredly patrol this border aggressively. One of the clues to an impending shift from the current paradigm would be a pogrom against hobbits / halflings, likely fabricated (although good luck proving it). This would set up later events as the Belleflower Network steps up actiivity to remove more hobbits from Chelish slavery. Increased activity means increased likelyhood of detection, inserting diabolical double-agents (or outright posessing devils) and more.
Given the spread of Chelish colonies north and south along the coasts, she has a vested interest in securing those colonies and/or returning them to the fold. The greatest strategic threat on the western flank are the Belshamarian pirates, especially their "port of call". That represents too grave a threat to their own logisitcs to be left at their underbelly. Ergo, it is the first strategic target of importance.
From an esprit-de-corps point of view, utterly destroying this city on the westernmost edge of "the known world" offers several major advantages, much like the Spanish Civil War offered the Soviets and Fascists shortly before the outbreak of WW2. The chance to field test new tactics, test the mettle of their various combat units (plus season them to the brutal realities of war) and combined arms warfare, Pathfinder-style. The building of esprit-de-corps is an element that cannot be underestimated, and it will prove invaluable during future campaigns. "Going Carthage" on the place will ensure that it does not resurface any time soon, if at all, as a serious military threat.
Its remoteness combined with the nature of the foe will raise some eyebrows, some murmurs of concern and quite a bit of relief that some one finally squashed that particular thorn in civilization's side. Most likely, since Her Infernal Majestrix does not seem to have to overly concern herself with being in a great hurry, the affair will be left to cool down. Perhaps some token protests are made, a few scapegoat-hobbits are sacrificed on the altar of expediency ... perhaps even a particularly notorious hobbit pirate captain is captured alive along with whomever else is clapped in irons. These sorry sods face an Inquisition-style "interrogation" before a very public drawing, quartering and snuffing or entrapping of their screaming souls.
The eugenicist dragon doesn't present that much of a strategic threat, nor do the random Viking raiding parties. A series of punative expeditions might be mounted to "check" the Vikings, enough to convince them that preying in Chelish waters is a Bad Idea. This has the added benefit (from Cheliax's point of view) of focusing the raider's attentions on easier prey closer to home, at least for a few years. These expeditions also serve to bolster the esprit-de-corps of the Northern Colonial Expeditionary Force against foes that they expect to combat in the future. (The corps involved in slaughtering the Belshemarian pirates in the future form the core of the Garundi Expeditionary Force, as well as the First and Second Army Groups slated for deployment in later operations against eastern foes.)
All of this likely takes place over 2 years' time. Once Sargova is secured from the pirate menace, a pre-planned operation is conducted to vastly expand the colony's logistical capacity and ability to service prolonged military operations is executed. My guess is that this would take 12-15 months' time, with the intended result being able to sustain a considerable land arm and enough of a naval arm so as to provide local naval supremacy.
Once events in the east begin to unfold at Cheliax's convenience, or by way of old-fashioned jurisprudence, the covert "arm" sets into motion, stirring hornet's nests in the northeastern bandit states of the River Kingdoms, very queitly arranging support for a promising warlord in Galt and throwing a few pebbles in the simmering cauldron of Brevoy. Other silver-tongued provocateurs wag those appendages at various social events throughout Andoran, Taldor and the eastern satrapies. Perhaps these agents have long been working, clouding the eyes and minds of nobles and well-meaning "freedom lovers".
I envision the Chelish command structure and strategic planning being similar to WW2 Imperial Japan's, with the Imperial Navy waxing and waning in contrast with the Imperial Army as success and failure occurs.
"I think you guys/gals severely overestimate Cheliax's power, unity (loyalty to itself), and position in the world."
If anything, we may be underestimating Cheliax. They have an innate advantage almost no one else in Golarian has, fiends.
Think about it from Asmodeus' point of view, "Hmmm, my number one source of souls is about to go under... time to send in some reinforcements." Or probably more correctly... "Well Abrogail, it appears this little war of yours is not going so well. I could send you some help, for a price of course."
Even a small army of Devils could quickly turn the tide of war in Cheliax's favor, if nothing else to recoup whatever losses Cheliax had suffered. Although devils may be stoppable by groups of hardened heroes (read the PC's), for most rank and file armies on Golarian the sight of even a single Pit Fiend (for example) would make most troops turn and run. Those who didn't, well Pharasma always has room for one more on line right?
Also in Cheliax's favor is geography. Most of the countries natural enemies are a few hundred, if not thousand miles away. The only natural enemy local is Andoran. Where as Cheliax has loyal vassal and/or allied states in Nidal, Molthune, & Isger all right next door.
The real question is, besides Andoran, who would stand against Cheliax and her allies? Hermea maybe? Mendev has her hands full with the Worldwound. Nirmathas perhaps, especially if emboldened Nidal & Molthune look to expand at her expense. Lastwall as I recall is allied with Molthune, so they become an interesting wild card. Kyonin could join, she could also close her borders to everybody else and say it's not the Elves' problem. Again, Cheliax looks to be in pretty good shape.
Also, it's clear none of you have looked at the crucial issue:
If the entire world is at war, then why can't events fall down so that Andoran and Cheliax are united against a common enemy?
And - the question of relevance to heroes: what nefarious plots go on because the major powers are "distracted" by the war?
But - I've seen numerous "wars", and I think that although Golarion is highly detailed, many armchair generals are ignoring the obvious. Even with mass combat rules, we don't have enough details on the armies of the world.
AND - this is an event for a year or two from our side, so expect at least two AP set in the Golarion wars, if it starts.
Yes, sadly, IF it starts. Nothing in the Golarion write-ups indicates the "too many people eating, guess it's wartime again" that happened in real-Earth history.
I like to think of this thread as an exercise in "alternative history of Golarion".
It would take a truly monstrous threat to unite Andoran and Cheliax against a common foe given the polarity of their respective govornments and political philosphies.
The nefarious plots are what PFS and/or home camapigns are for resolving! :)
The fickle hand of Mother Nature strikes at any time. The nations of Golarion around the Inner Sea are sufficiently large enough that land-grabbing in and of itself is sufficent motivation when married to ambition and/or imperialism. The tyrants of Cheliax certainly won't require starving masses to motivate a campaign. Other nations, probably would, or a looming shortage of some other strategically vital good. Say, iron.
What if Cheliax has been quietly importing all of the iron it can? Some how a mercantile operative in Absolom notices. Hands tied from direct action, comments made seemingly in passing trickle to the ears of more directly concerned parties. A certain hobbit pirate scuttles or siezes a few shiploads of Westcrown-bound iron bars...
If you have the time, one can roughly extrapolate a given nation's "industrial power" from the major cities on the maps. A capitol city for the major powers could be classified as having a number of districts based on population. Rough estimates of claimed land area contributes to estimations of arable land, resource worthy forests and hills/mountains that can be mined.
Westcrown, as I recall, is cited as having approxomately 140 city districts by itself. Egorian has a much larger population...
An interesting exercise to be sure!
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The way I see it, (out of "game"), Cheliax is Paizo's baby, so nothing will ever change Cheliax, even beyond the general rule about no world changing events for the setting.
But, in a more realistic (authors have no control) sense. Cheliax itself would be it's greatest enemy, and I don't see any reason that Taldor (alone), the heavenly realms (alone), the combined forces of some more friendly allies like Andoran + Mendovians + Halflings world-wide (and some elves and gnomes with sympathy), or anyone that is against slavery, infernalism, tyranny, or strick order wouldn't make Cheliax a priority for massive change.
On the other hand, sure Cheliax does have a massive army and navy, good location, many lands, and all that. But it doesn't have much in the way of acual loyalty to itself. Most of it's citizens are forced to act a certain way, pay lip service to the tyranical order, and live in fear. It's leaders are primarily dupped into thinking they hold power or control of their actions and goals. This makes excellent ground for even a semitactle army to usurp/devistate the country (Sun Tzu style), fairly quickly.
Lets also face it. Cheliax doesn't have many friends, but has had a long history of making enemies and rivals. They are known for arogance and thinking they are so much better than everyone else.
:)
The way I see it, (out of "game"), Cheliax is Paizo's baby, so nothing will ever change Cheliax, even beyond the general rule about no world changing events for the setting.
But, in a more realistic (authors have no control) sense. Cheliax itself would be it's greatest enemy, and I don't see any reason that Taldor (alone), the heavenly realms (alone), the combined forces of some more friendly allies like Andoran + Mendovians + Halflings world-wide (and some elves and gnomes with sympathy), or anyone that is against slavery, infernalism, tyranny, or strick order wouldn't make Cheliax a priority for massive change.
On the other hand, sure Cheliax does have a massive army and navy, good location, many lands, and all that. But it doesn't have much in the way of acual loyalty to itself. Most of it's citizens are forced to act a certain way, pay lip service to the tyranical order, and live in fear. It's leaders are primarily dupped into thinking they hold power or control of their actions and goals. This makes excellent ground for even a semitactle army to usurp/devistate the country (Sun Tzu style), fairly quickly.
Lets also face it. Cheliax doesn't have many friends, but has had a long history of making enemies and rivals. They are known for arogance and thinking they are so much better than everyone else.
:)
I agree! It sure would make a heck of campaign!
Turin, It's obvious your far more knowledgeable about Cheliax and have thought this out already....bravo.
It's going to take a while for me to digest all this.
I ran Council of Thieves almost as fast as it was published for my group, which helped. :)
I also have a fondness for maps, and the Inner Sea region that the adventures have been set in have gotten a modest looking over - enough, I think, to have a reasonable grasp of Cheliax's strategic position.
I do believe that there is a "trade goods" map of the region somewhere as well, which would also be a deciding factor for some of the aggressive parties. Or I may be remembering one for a different campaign world, I'm not really sure.
Cheliax definitely has its weaknesses, reinforcing the comparison to a hybrid "World Wars" Germany with a healthy "dash" of pre-WW2 Imperial Japan. Borrowing on these states could really help flesh out the steps that Her Imperial Majestrix could undertake - presuming that she is indeed the motivating force of House Thrune. There are, as I recall, four primary "vectors" of political power within Cheliax: Imperial Navy (ascendant), Imperial Army (waning), House Thrune (govorning body, owed fealty and presumably worse by the lesser noble houses of the nation) and the Hellknights (State Police).
It could - perhaps even should - get REALLY ugly "behind the curtain" ... and thus completing the "Axis of Evil" analogy by taking pages from all three 'Axis' nations of WW2 and the steps taken prior to the outbreak of war.
The combination of events and such would probably span a decade where Abrigail consolidates her power within House Thrune / consolidates House Thrune's power within Cheliax. I suggest the "hobbit pogrom" simply because an easily targeted minority could be a method to achieve one or more of Cheliax's long-term goals from a tyrant's point of view. If nothing else, rounding them all up as infernal sacrifices / fodder for the Legions of the Damned (or what have you) is a strategic goal in and of itself. Giving the masses of oppressed commoners a scape goat for their frustrations is an added bonus.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with, TLC!
Ah HAH, I have unearthed my map and am examining it in greater detail.
Hrmmm ...
Interesting, especially given the events in my own version of Golarion (as played out by my own players).
Chelaxian expansionism will almost assuredly have to happen in a series of diplomatic arrangements - and not insignificant investment in maintaining their apparent strength in relation to a few parties.
Cheliax currently counts as allies expansionist Molthune - who is clearly seeking to pursue war - and its vassal state of Isger. Sargava is a distant colony that as things presently stand is dangling on the end of a long vine.
Nidal (ruled by the Umbral Court) and the Mediogalti Islands (home to pirates and infamous assassins, overseen by a Gawd) must needs be at least assured of neutrality in each other's affairs. Given the respective natures of these two states (LE), such arrangements should be easily arranged, especially in light of the services that the specialists from both countries could offer to supplement those of Cheliax.
Once diplomacy has made the necessary arrangements, that leaves the next step of diplomacy: Rahadoum, the Kingdom of Man. An alliance developed over a generation or two is in order here, ultimately seeking to at a minimum secure mutual non-aggression pacts, hopefully quite a bit more.
Abrogail could certainly marry off second and third children to Rahadoum in what ever fashion will eventually unite the two countries into one geo-political entity that literally straddles the Inner Sea.
Given that the Imperial Navy may well be sitting on militarily secret routes through the Eye and along the Sodden Lands to permit Rahadoumin and/or Chelish wrath to descend upon The Shackles. The end result - dividing the Shackles between Rahadoum and Cheliax. The area of the Shackles closest to the Sodden Lands goes to Rahadoum whilst the area closest to Sargava goes to Cheliax, especially if the Chelish Imperial Navy and marines carry the brunt of the fighting.
Port Peril is looted, pillaged and "Carthaged" by the chained hands of those captured defending the city. The ground salted, everything deemed salvagable is exported to be re-purposed for building materials elsewhere in the Shackles. The rest of that city is razed.
Having a now secure western flank from as far north as Korvosa and Nidal all the way south to its own colony of Sargava, it seems likely that Rahadoum will return to its normal state of infighting and ineffectual isolationism, bolstered somewhat by the shiny new colony states in the remnants of The Shackles. What Cheliax really needed from this arrangement is three-fold: entrenchment within Rahadoum's political power structure, such as it is; a secure southern border - or at least one disinterested in or unwilling to prosecute open war; and rights to establish their own quiet little corner of Rahadoum. Say, not too terribly far from the river dividing Rahadoum from Thuvia... call it New Kharijite.
Expansionist Molthune is Cheliax's version of Republican vs. Nationalist Spain on land, much as The Shackles serve this purpose for the Navy so does Molthune's ambitions on land against ragged Nirmathas. With an organized strategy and a respectable investment of energy, manpower and resources the quarrelsome rabble of Nirmathas are rather likely to fall in the face of Molthune aggression attended to by "special advisors" from Cheliax.
Nirmathasians will not have much warning before the NCEF marches en masse under Molthune banners. The exercise in amphibious transportation is done under naval auspices to speed troop deployment from one side of Cheliax to the other, as long ships can go a great long way up river and are excellent troop transports, among other things. Major way points of the march avoid Isger's capitol - to avoid military intelligence gathering by foreign agents there for starters and instead rely on transport by ship as far up the River Keld as they can before continuing on from Logas and through the passes before marching to Canorate. After R*R there, the legions continue north to Fort Ramgate and all along the border.
The execution is simple: "sweep" the skirmishers from the hills to the east. The faster units move ahead to encircle and isolate groups piecemeal before infantry close in and annihilate or capture (and thus enslave, although many Nirmathians have to be slain) those fighting them. There appears to be a few riverine intersections west of Tamran. The encirclement loops a few miles north before tighening like a barbed net, driving the skirmishers into the apparent safety of Tamran. Once the noose tightens to the environs of the city proper, the slaughter begins as the bulk of the Molthune navy - refitted with proper siege engines - sails in with the sun to their backs flinging naptha balls into the hapless wooden fortifications. Tamran is razed.
Skelt is isolated, as it will take a full-fledged siege to force surrender or starvation, something Molthune is not willing to commit to at this time. Isolating the cliff city instead is a much more acceptable alternative.
Having sliced Nirmathas in half and isolated its only other significant settlement, once Tamran has been taken care of it is just a matter of time to consolidate the rest of the land grab northward to Lastwall.
At least, this is a "strategic assessment plan", perhaps on Abrigail's desk in her study ... something that she reads during idle moments fancying imperial ambitions...
On the 'what would it take to unite Cheliax & Andoran question?', I recently devised an alternate history whereby Lamashtu was dethroned as Demon Queen and replaced by another demon. The new Demon Queen conscripted Deskari, assumed managament of his efforts in the Worldwound, and the Abyssal hordes pouring forth there, suddenly swollen in numbers, over-ran the borders of at least one neighbour, and then just kept going...
After a wave of highly charismatic demons 'swept to power' in a series of democratic elections across Andoran (the perils of a system whereby leaders are chosen by 'popular mandate' in a fantasy world) the military leaders in Andoran suspended Andoran's regular political structures, imposed a dictatorship and allied Andoran with Cheliax to survive. Ustalav, Belkzen, Druma, Molthune, Nirmathas, Lastwall (eventually), Mendev, Galt, the River Kingdoms, Numeria, and half of Taldor (the other half was grabbed by Qadira) all went down under the demonic tide though, and Alkenstar was captured and turned into a demonic base of operations in Garund. Isger ended up as a bloody frontline for constant ongoing skirmishes between the Cheliax-Andoran alliance and the Abyssal hordes...
Pretty nifty. That would definitely unite Cheliax with just about anyone else!
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On the 'what would it take to unite Cheliax & Andoran question?', I recently devised an alternate history whereby Lamashtu was dethroned as Demon Queen and replaced by another demon. The new Demon Queen conscripted Deskari, assumed managament of his efforts in the Worldwound, and the Abyssal hordes pouring forth there, suddenly swollen in numbers, over-ran the borders of at least one neighbour, and then just kept going...
After a wave of highly charismatic demons 'swept to power' in a series of democratic elections across Andoran (the perils of a system whereby leaders are chosen by 'popular mandate' in a fantasy world) the military leaders in Andoran suspended Andoran's regular political structures, imposed a dictatorship and allied Andoran with Cheliax to survive. Ustalav, Belkzen, Druma, Molthune, Nirmathas, Lastwall (eventually), Mendev, Galt, the River Kingdoms, Numeria, and half of Taldor (the other half was grabbed by Qadira) all went down under the demonic tide though, and Alkenstar was captured and turned into a demonic base of operations in Garund. Isger ended up as a bloody frontline for constant ongoing skirmishes between the Cheliax-Andoran alliance and the Abyssal hordes...
Why does everyone fear demon rule? Honestly where not that bad. :)
Why does everyone fear demon rule? Honestly where not that bad. :)
Asides from some very nice eye candy, there is the whole eating of faces, dismebowelment, drawn and quartered and smooshing of things normally not smooshed thing. :P
A bit more regarding cementing Nidal at Cheliax's northern front with Varisia and Lastwall would be dangling Korvosa and Skelt as "trade" to the Umbral Court as part of their mutual non-aggression pact. Nidal would probably just love to expand into the southeastern edge of Varisia and east through the mountains to Skeld, securing that vital route from sea to plains for themselves. All the Molthune forces need to is act as the immovable object against the Nidalese irresistable force with Skeld caught in the middle, while the Chelish Navy serves the same purpose as reagards Korvosa (if that step is even necessary).
The Shoanti are generally content to do their thing in the Cinderlands a far enough distance away from Korvosa that the escarpment that serves them so well also hinders their ability to mount any resistance against the Nidalese forces sweeping north then west to Korvosa.
Granted, this should definitely be taken as an "intellgence / strategy assessment". After all, the exact state of Korvosa's govornance will vary from campaign to campaign. In mine, for ecample, Korvosa would eagerly side with the Umbral Court and expand their holdings almost all the way to the escarpment seperating the Shoanti-"infested" Cinderlands from the rest of the southeastern portion of Varisia. Then the Nidalese military would have those not-inconsiderable naval facilities - as well as the Korvosan Guard, the griffon-riders and at least two regular armies, splitting one off to contribute to the sacking of Skeld.
Korvosan holdings, as a vassal state of Nidal, would in this case seek to expand up to the eastern edge of the Mushfens at the furthest. Consolidation and indoctrination would follow ...
Kinda strange how everyone goes directly to outright aggression, as though there are absolutely no social N/PCs available in Cheliax and Taldor who are actively working to undermine governments in less obvious ways.
If I were Cheliax and I wanted to deal with Taldor in some way, I would find a way to support its princess's bid for the throne from the shadows, while better teams work against her, changing things ever so slightly, gradually, becoming a more oppressive or whatever state.
Or perhaps, it was the diabolist's plans to have Taldor's bureaucracy gorge itself into inefficiency so that they could insert capable agents of change.
May just be me, but outright aggression is absolutely boring. If I wanted to be bored to death watching skirmishes, I would pay attention during the LotR movies. But then I felt that the wormtongue character got the business end of the shaft in those scripts, and was too easily disposed of for my comfort.
Kinda strange how everyone goes directly to outright aggression, as though there are absolutely no social N/PCs available in Cheliax and Taldor who are actively working to undermine governments in less obvious ways.
If I were Cheliax and I wanted to deal with Taldor in some way, I would find a way to support its princess's bid for the throne from the shadows, while better teams work against her, changing things ever so slightly, gradually, becoming a more oppressive or whatever state.
Or perhaps, it was the diabolist's plans to have Taldor's bureaucracy gorge itself into inefficiency so that they could insert capable agents of change.
May just be me, but outright aggression is absolutely boring. If I wanted to be bored to death watching skirmishes, I would pay attention during the LotR movies. But then I felt that the wormtongue character got the business end of the shaft in those scripts, and was too easily disposed of for my comfort.
Mostly 'cause you need to give PCs something to do, and an actual war is the easiest way to do this. Sure, there are certain players - and I'll grant, even theoretically entire groups - that would enjoy a campaign where you just go from secret meeting to secret meeting, relaying messages for political gain, but... not most.
Though I do agree that a good Cheliax-conquest campaign would have some heavy diplomacy.
The problem with destroying the Shackles is that it is not where the power of the Pirates is...it's just a port. The powr of the pirates is their fleet...and their fleet has all sorts of advantages over the Chelish, as they've repeatedly proven. Cheliax sending ships after the Shackles is a disaster waiting to happen.
As for Asmodeans infiltrating other sectors...
Kinda strange how everyone goes directly to outright aggression, as though there are absolutely no social N/PCs available in Cheliax and Taldor who are actively working to undermine governments in less obvious ways.
If I were Cheliax and I wanted to deal with Taldor in some way, I would find a way to support its princess's bid for the throne from the shadows, while better teams work against her, changing things ever so slightly, gradually, becoming a more oppressive or whatever state.
Or perhaps, it was the diabolist's plans to have Taldor's bureaucracy gorge itself into inefficiency so that they could insert capable agents of change.
May just be me, but outright aggression is absolutely boring. If I wanted to be bored to death watching skirmishes, I would pay attention during the LotR movies. But then I felt that the wormtongue character got the business end of the shaft in those scripts, and was too easily disposed of for my comfort.
Well, all the backstabbery, diplomacizing, espionage and skullduggery of various flavors - such as subtle nudges here and there to nudge Taldor into despondant decadance - are a work of decades. Part of this is likely represented in some form or fashion in PFS play (I hope). A great deal of this could be in the "has already happened" category.
A Taldor divided is easier to conquer after all - if it has degenerated enough internally, the stresses of external affairs north in Galt, west from Andor and south from Qadira will either sunder or unite the Taldans. Cheliax of course attempts to weigh things in their favor. ^_^
Open war is often the culmination of events, not the cause of them. Not in terms of the reasons etc for war at least.
The problem with destroying the Shackles is that it is not where the power of the Pirates is...it's just a port. The powr of the pirates is their fleet...and their fleet has all sorts of advantages over the Chelish, as they've repeatedly proven. Cheliax sending ships after the Shackles is a disaster waiting to happen.
As for Asmodeans infiltrating other sectors...
** spoiler omitted **
VERY interesting.
Taking that into consideration, Cheliax wouldn't strike at The Shackles, but either "ally" or discreetly "direct" the pirates' tendencies.
Very interesting...
Mostly 'cause you need to give PCs something to do, and an actual war is the easiest way to do this. Sure, there are certain players - and I'll grant, even theoretically entire groups - that would enjoy a campaign where you just go from secret meeting to secret meeting, relaying messages for political gain, but... not most.
Yeah, the kingmaker group I am a part of systematically ruined that AP for me. As a political science major, I was intensely interested in carving a coherent national identity out of the River Kingdoms people, defining a government where chaos ruled, and... got the remainder of the group building our capital to maximize gold and magic item input to build defenses in light of wars we should not even had known were coming. When we got to part 5, my character got knocked up to get out of the war parts because the very idea of it bored me to tears, and I ended up being forced to participate against my wishes.
Oh, and the actual war... what a yawn. PCs level 13 and above using their best spells against expert and warrior 2s. Such a challenge! Ridiculous.
So, solution - got my husband and GM to create a solo campaign set in Pitax around Irovetti's ascension. All I do is investigate, and figure out who is moving what pieces at which time to let this guy or that take the fall, and it is easily the best time that I have ever had. Granted, my character is impoverished, and after about 8 months of play I have only gained 5 levels, but it is fun.
This thread made me want to poke him to let me play around in Cheliax and Taldor, too. Which he has already hinted at. *finger pyramid of evil*
Mostly 'cause you need to give PCs something to do, and an actual war is the easiest way to do this. Sure, there are certain players - and I'll grant, even theoretically entire groups - that would enjoy a campaign where you just go from secret meeting to secret meeting, relaying messages for political gain, but... not most.
Yeah, the kingmaker group I am a part of systematically ruined that AP for me. As a political science major, I was intensely interested in carving a coherent national identity out of the River Kingdoms people, defining a government where chaos ruled, and... got the remainder of the group building our capital to maximize gold and magic item input to build defenses in light of wars we should not even had known were coming. When we got to part 5, my character got knocked up to get out of the war parts because the very idea of it bored me to tears, and I ended up being forced to participate against my wishes.
Oh, and the actual war... what a yawn. PCs level 13 and above using their best spells against expert and warrior 2s. Such a challenge! Ridiculous.
So, solution - got my husband and GM to create a solo campaign set in Pitax around Irovetti's ascension. All I do is investigate, and figure out who is moving what pieces at which time to let this guy or that take the fall, and it is easily the best time that I have ever had. Granted, my character is impoverished, and after about 8 months of play I have only gained 5 levels, but it is fun.
This thread made me want to poke him to let me play around in Cheliax and Taldor, too. Which he has already hinted at. *finger pyramid of evil*
:) I do apologize for the dain bramaged turn out of your particular Kingmaker campaign. Keep an eye on other campaign journals though. ^_^
Sounds like fun, keep us posted?
Cheliax attacking the The Shackles Pirates en masse is indeed a disaster waiting to happen in more ways than one. First of all, in a strictly mundane military fashion, its a huge mistake, since the pirates obviously are better able to navigate and take advantage of the seas far more so than the Cheliaxian captains. Even if the Imperial Navy was double(or more) the size of the pirate fleets, there are plenty of historical battles, naval and otherwise were won by the smaller armies due to knowing the terrain better.
Secondly, this is a fantasy game, which means the Shackles can bring serious weather magic against the Imperial Navy. Sure, they have their own magicks, including Devils potentially, but fat lot of good that will do when your spellcasters lungs are filled with water, or their sight is severely hindered due to fog, water spouts, rain, etc.
As for how easy you seem to paint the taking of Nirmathas, your falling exactly into their hands with traditional military tactics. You assume they'll fall prey to being encircled in a net-like fashion, but it's hard to capture what easily slips through your fingers, or refuses to stay put. Oh and go ahead and "capture" Tamran, that's exactly what it's there for: it's a trap, as Molthune has found out the last five times they "won the city" and were unable to keep it as the hit and run tactics bled them dry.
Also, it's highly likely that if Cheliax pushed far enough east, Qadira and the Padishah Empire would mobilize to stop them. And while the might of Cheliax is grand indeed, it pales in comparison to what the Empire can bring to bear.