The thought that the abyss IS expanding that its INFINITE in its size while nearly every other plane is finite makes me somewhat depressed.
Whats the point of fighting the abyss if its expanding and there is nothing I can do to stop it?
I like the idea of the worldwound-because it has the potential to be stopped.
hbb
But if the Abyss is infinite then how is it even comparable to the Nine hells (Which are just a Slight bump in reality in comparison)?
Or the Material Plane?
I understand if there was a possibility of beating it BACK but the Infernal codex states that it can just be contained: So it will just claim ground until it consumes everything.
I knew it was infinite but I thought that it couldn't really exit through. Now I know that it already is.
Depressing really.
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Fortunately, the Demons' chaotic nature keeps them fighting each other and squabbling over layers, resulting in a big mess that's impossible to coordinate and take advantage of it's infinite size. It's an old staple from Planescape and Blood War - the demons are legion, but lack of any command and competing agendas of Demon Lords keep them from doing anything together.
If Hell was to be limitless, everybody would be in deep trouble, because Asmodeus would instantly take advantage of his supreme power and harness it to his advantage. Luckily, he has just his very much limited home turf to play with.
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You could Houserule it differently -- I do.
Or you could just lump it with our real life knowledge: we know the Universe is expanding and, as a result, will destroy itself and EVERYTHING in existence. But we still live our lives, knowing that the universe will one day be destroyed.
Or you could argue that some people fight the inevitable Chaos for the same illogical reasons some people worship Rovagug even though he wants to kill them, or do other stupid stuff (Cults of Zuggtmoy, yeah, not mentally or emotionally stable).
I'm guessing you haven't read Lords of Chaos yet. Its fluff is even more depressing, IMO.
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The thought that the abyss IS expanding that its INFINITE in its size while nearly every other plane is finite makes me somewhat depressed.
Infinite doesn't always match our intuitions about the same. For example, consider Gabriel's Horn; a geometric figure which has infinite surface area but encloses a finite volume.
If you think of the Abyss as a Gabriel's Horn on end, the surface of it is infinite, but the layers (and denizens thereof) exist in a finite space. Therefore, it can be infinite, and yet have limits.
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Hey, that's pretty cool, I'll have to keep that in mind when trying to describe D&D cosmology in general, all the Primes and Lower and Upper Planes and such.
I'll have to put you in my category of favorite posters along with Chris (Mortika) who taught us that we could learn pi because it can be sung to "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star."
I'm not sure what the canon is for the Abyss in Pathfinder. For my own campaigns, I'm still using a variant of the Great Wheel cosmology, which I don't think Paizo can actually use for copyright reasons.
I wonder if the expansion of the infinite Abyss takes into account the Hilbert Hotel paradox. This is a paradox in the mathematics of infinity that says that even though Hilbert's Hotel is infinite and every room is currently occupied, Hilbert can still make room for one, many, or even an infinite number of newcomers.
So, if this applies to the Paizoverse, then the Abyss can infinitely expand while still leaving infinite room for an infinite number of other planes, whether or not those planes are or are not infinite. Infinity is like that.
The way this works is that, if we assume that the amount of non-Abyss space is infinite, even if every plane outside of the Abyss is finite (which implies there are either an infinite number of non-Abyss planes, or that there is "unclaimed space" of infinite size), then as one plane (e.g. the Nine Hells) loses ground to the Abyss, it can in theory make up for it by taking ground from one of the other planes, or from "unclaimed space", if this exists.
Of course, it could be a bit inconvenient for you if some devils show up in your neighborhood and want to claim it for their Hell.
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The thought that the abyss IS expanding that its INFINITE in its size while nearly every other plane is finite makes me somewhat depressed.Infinite doesn't always match our intuitions about the same. For example, consider Gabriel's Horn; a geometric figure which has infinite surface area but encloses a finite volume.
If you think of the Abyss as a Gabriel's Horn on end, the surface of it is infinite, but the layers (and denizens thereof) exist in a finite space. Therefore, it can be infinite, and yet have limits.
** spoiler omitted **
Hmmm. I had not thought of considering the Abyss, or any other plane, to be based on Gabriel's Horn. I'll have to use that idea sometime.
Personally, I like the idea of each layer of the Abyss and the Hells to be infinitely large. A few years ago I was writing up some ideas based on that concept, and I think I came up with some pretty cool ideas.
For example, consider a "sunset" in the Abyss. What I mean, is a super-hot spherical body the size of Antares, that comes down to "set" on an infinite plane. That thing is going to vaporize anything within a hundred million miles, and it itself is something like four or five hundred million miles in radius.
Then if the thing "rises" again, you're left with a hemispherical hole about a billion miles in diameter and about half a billion miles deep. Such a hole might get filled in with waters from the river Styx. Now you have a huge, huge, huge ocean. And that is less than a figurative pin-prick on the vast plane of the Abyss.
But then I thought, why stop there? What if, instead of an infinite plane, the "surface" of the Abyss is really the surface of a vast globe the size of a galaxy. People on the surface probably wouldn't know the difference. But then there could be other such spheres, scattered throughout Abyssal space.
To put this in perspective, I have considered that in the "Great Wheel", the universe that we, ourselves, inhabit (we can call this "the Prime Cosmos"), is perhaps but a finite demiplane about 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles across. It orbits a vastly larger appendage of the Negative Material Plane the way that a speck of dust might be orbiting the Earth. And this larger appendage is itself but a speck on the Negative Material Plane itself.
Of course, our universe is believed to be expanding at the speed of light, so I suppose if Demons and Devils want a piece of it, there is plenty of room. We just don't want it to be our room.
We don't really know that the Abyss is infinite. It might be. But we've never really made it far enough in to tell. Once you get into the qlippothic regions it gets worse and weirder and more difficult than usual to make any progress. Sure, demons will tell you that their realm is infinite and constantly breaching into our multiverse to inevitably destroy it. Qlippoth will tell you that their plane, their race was the first thing in existence and will outlast all other things. But these are CE outsiders. They are hate and violence and madness personified. You trust what they have to say?
We don't really know that the Abyss is infinite. It might be. But we've never really made it far enough in to tell. Once you get into the qlippothic regions it gets worse and weirder and more difficult than usual to make any progress. Sure, demons will tell you that their realm is infinite and constantly breaching into our multiverse to inevitably destroy it. Qlippoth will tell you that their plane, their race was the first thing in existence and will outlast all other things. But these are CE outsiders. They are hate and violence and madness personified. You trust what they have to say?
That is a question: how do you know whether or not a plane is infinite?
When evolving my Great Wheel concept, I took advantage of the theory that the people who described a plane might not have seen enough of the plane to accurately describe its nature. Thus, if I did not like a description (such as of Tartarus or of Acheron) I could say "Well, those guys just saw one little piece of the plane and thought that it applied to the whole plane."
On the other hand, it also opens up the possibilities of sending PCs to a plane, but a region of the plane that is different from even an accurate description of the majority of the plane. Thus, I could have a region of the Nine Hells that is billions of miles of office cubicals, where chained up workers have to continually revise intricate spreadsheets or else get fired, and nobody wants to get fired. Most of Hell might not be like that, but if you're a million miles from the nearest exit, what are you going to do?
Il just houserule that without demonic intervention the realm remains as it is.
In addition most of the Abyss is uninhabited because it in itself is very dangerous even to the demons that inhabit it. The lower you go the more corrupt it becomes until even the Q-berts cannot even stand it.
While the Nine hells are MADE to work with the Devils that it holds. While Perilous, at the very least it doesn't really effect the Devils living there.
Another limiting factor on the Abyss: the also potentially infinite CN natives of the Maelstrom view them as an abomination unto Chaos fit to be eradicated.
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If the Abyss is overwhelmingly depressing, I'll take that as a compliment! :-)
It's not supposed to be a nice place; it's supposed to be an overwhelmingly horrible place, and the concept that it's kind of hanging over the entire multiverse like the larges sword of Damocles ever is kind of the point of the Abyss.
The only reason, really, that the united demons (and qlippoth) of the Abyss haven't risen up and destroyed the rest of it all is simple; demons don't work well together. Individually, they're absolutely capable of building complex plans that take eons to carry out and can be as subtle and secretive as they can be obvious and blatant. But working together? Not so much in the cards; in fact, there's enough bickering among the demon lords that they don't really need much of an outside "guardian" at all.
In fact, one of the few things that CAN unite the demon lords is the "invasion" of the Abyss by a good guy. The goddess Desna did this at one point in the past, all under good intentions, when she and a few other deities banded together to accomplish a mission in the Abyss, but the demons interpreted her invasion as the vanguard of a heavenly host attack and banded together to ready themselves for a fight. The fight never came, Desna and the others got out of the Abyss before it went that far, and the demons fell back into bickering... that was the closest the demons came to joining forces in recent history, though.
And yes, Desna DID get in trouble for it.
If you had ever been to my layer you wouldn't be so depressed about it spreading. In fact you would be encouraging it to spread. :)I cast apon myself a spell of "creepy disgusting obscure fetish" giving myself a +20 to resist your seduction.
I cast apon myself a spell of "creepy disgusting obscure fetish" giving myself a +20 to resist your seduction.
Except succubi can sense any fetishes and get +20 bonus to their seduction check for it and additional +10 bonus for every adjective applied to it... Stacking with each other. So you just granted her a grand total of +50 bonus to seduction.
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If you want real pointless depression, try Warhammer Fantasy. Even the Gods of Law are doomed to be reabsorbed into the Chaos from which they sprang.The thought that the abyss IS expanding that its INFINITE in its size while nearly every other plane is finite makes me somewhat depressed.
Whats the point of fighting the abyss if its expanding and there is nothing I can do to stop it?
1. The God's of Law don't exist anymore in canon (a pity, cuz the likes of Solkan were really cool).
2. In 1st ed. they were just but ONE manifestation of chaos. Chaos was (and is) not evil per se, mortal's emotions were (and are) what shaped the realm of chaos and gave power to the Gods of Chaos.
3. All gods in Warhammer, Including Sigmar are Gods of Chaos. They simply fight the 4 great demon gods, because it's their nature to do so as reflections of mortal's higher virtues (as opposed to the 4 great chaos gods being the vortexes caused by raw emotions like wrath, lust, despair and hope)
4. The notion that trhe Abyss may be ever expanding is not that traumatic to me: in Pathfinder heroes can stop that kind of thing with a good GM...
In fact, one of the few things that CAN unite the demon lords is the "invasion" of the Abyss by a good guy. The goddess Desna did this at one point in the past, all under good intentions, when she and a few other deities banded together to accomplish a mission in the Abyss, but the demons interpreted her invasion as the vanguard of a heavenly host attack and banded together to ready themselves for a fight. The fight never came, Desna and the others got out of the Abyss before it went that far, and the demons fell back into bickering... that was the closest the demons came to joining forces in recent history, though.
That's reminiscent of one of my favourite Planescape stories. Thinking to end the evils of the fiends once and for all, the forces of good sent a host of millions of angels into the Lower Planes to eliminate them. The baatezu and tanar'ri, seeing a common foe, stopped the Blood War to fight them off. A few hundred angels returned home.
If the Abyss is overwhelmingly depressing, I'll take that as a compliment! :-)
As a DM, there's tons of story ideas I can use from the Abyss. As a player, I hope to GOD that none of my characters ever have to deal with demons or the Abyss in any way/shape or form. that place is just plain ugly.
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In fact, one of the few things that CAN unite the demon lords is the "invasion" of the Abyss by a good guy. The goddess Desna did this at one point in the past, all under good intentions, when she and a few other deities banded together to accomplish a mission in the Abyss, but the demons interpreted her invasion as the vanguard of a heavenly host attack and banded together to ready themselves for a fight. The fight never came, Desna and the others got out of the Abyss before it went that far, and the demons fell back into bickering... that was the closest the demons came to joining forces in recent history, though.
And yes, Desna DID get in trouble for it.
Did Desna accomplish her mission, or did she see the entire population of the Abyss aligned against her and suddenly decide it wasn't all that important after all?
Except succubi can sense any fetishes and get +20 bonus to their seduction check for it and additional +10 bonus for every adjective applied to it... Stacking with each other. So you just granted her a grand total of +50 bonus to seduction.
That was my gambit! Now, I release my spell making me disgusted with my previous actions, giving me automatic 20 in the save department.
That was my gambit! Now, I release my spell making me disgusted with my previous actions, giving me automatic 20 in the save department.
Ahhh, so you missed the last errata that removed (D)ispelble qulity from the creepy disgusting obscure fetish spell duration? Ouch.
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Did Desna accomplish her mission, or did she see the entire population of the Abyss aligned against her and suddenly decide it wasn't all that important after all?In fact, one of the few things that CAN unite the demon lords is the "invasion" of the Abyss by a good guy. The goddess Desna did this at one point in the past, all under good intentions, when she and a few other deities banded together to accomplish a mission in the Abyss, but the demons interpreted her invasion as the vanguard of a heavenly host attack and banded together to ready themselves for a fight. The fight never came, Desna and the others got out of the Abyss before it went that far, and the demons fell back into bickering... that was the closest the demons came to joining forces in recent history, though.
And yes, Desna DID get in trouble for it.
She did—she basically snuck into the demon lord Aolar's fortress and not only killed her but destroyed her fortress and freed all the mortal souls she'd captured as well.
The whole story appears on pages 30–31, under the entry for the dead demon lord Aolar.
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Ahhh, so you missed the last errata that removed (D)ispelble qulity from the creepy disgusting obscure fetish spell duration? Ouch.That was my gambit! Now, I release my spell making me disgusted with my previous actions, giving me automatic 20 in the save department.
Not to mention he keeps flip flopping and being very chaotic...
She did—she basically snuck into the demon lord Aolar's fortress and not only killed her but destroyed her fortress and freed all the mortal souls she'd captured as well.
The whole story appears on pages 30–31, under the entry for the dead demon lord Aolar.
i'll bet THAT stirred up a hornet's nest among the Powers That Be.
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i'll bet THAT stirred up a hornet's nest among the Powers That Be.She did—she basically snuck into the demon lord Aolar's fortress and not only killed her but destroyed her fortress and freed all the mortal souls she'd captured as well.
The whole story appears on pages 30–31, under the entry for the dead demon lord Aolar.
It did. As mentioned in the entry about Aolar (the demon lord of hunters), the ramifications were pretty intense. It was only with the support of Calistria, Sarenrae, and Shelyn that Desna escaped the scandal relatively intact, in fact.
It did. As mentioned in the entry about Aolar (the demon lord of hunters), the ramifications were pretty intense. It was only with the support of Calistria, Sarenrae, and Shelyn that Desna escaped the scandal relatively intact, in fact.
even so, that had to be pretty risky. there's things in the Abyss that could eat even a pretty powerful god(dess).
It was only with the support of Calistria, Sarenrae, and Shelyn that Desna escaped the scandal relatively intact, in fact.See, now I'm spoiled for season 1 of 'Goddesses Gone Wild.'
It sounds like they formed their own pop group of pretty goddesses. Someone with bad taste might refer to them as Dream Spice, Whip Spice, Sunshine Spice, and Flower Spice. ;b
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Infinite doesn't always match our intuitions about the same. For example, consider Gabriel's Horn; a geometric figure which has infinite surface area but encloses a finite volume.
If you think of the Abyss as a Gabriel's Horn on end, the surface of it is infinite, but the layers (and denizens thereof) exist in a finite space. Therefore, it can be infinite, and yet have limits.
PHENOMENAL ABYSSAL POWER!
Itty-bitty corrupting space.|
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Infinite doesn't always match our intuitions about the same. For example, consider Gabriel's Horn; a geometric figure which has infinite surface area but encloses a finite volume.
If you think of the Abyss as a Gabriel's Horn on end, the surface of it is infinite, but the layers (and denizens thereof) exist in a finite space. Therefore, it can be infinite, and yet have limits.
PHENOMENAL ABYSSAL POWER!
Itty-bitty corrupting space.
That's the problem with the Abyss. Infinately large on the outside, but inside so very very small. :-)
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It sounds like they formed their own pop group of pretty goddesses. Someone with bad taste might refer to them as Dream Spice, Whip Spice, Sunshine Spice, and Flower Spice. ;bIt was only with the support of Calistria, Sarenrae, and Shelyn that Desna escaped the scandal relatively intact, in fact.See, now I'm spoiled for season 1 of 'Goddesses Gone Wild.'
Pharasma and Iomedae are both still bitter about not being invited.
Iomedae was all, like, wroth and ****, 'I'm all about valorous charges into the heart of chaos and evil, to save others wrongfully seized! I'm the me-damned goddess of chivalry!'
And Desna was, like, 'Back off, girlfriend, this called for subtle. Which is why I didn't tell you until after it was already over. You aren't subtle. And you cannot keep a secret. If I ever need a warhorse in a china shop, being ridden by a glowing, screaming crazy woman swinging a sword around, I'll call you first, promise.'
I don't get it Desna got in trouble for killing a demon lord who was messing with everybody...Aroden did not get into trouble for killing one also? I guess we know who was the 'favorite' at the time.
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I don't get it Desna got in trouble for killing a demon lord who was messing with everybody...Aroden did not get into trouble for killing one also? I guess we know who was the 'favorite' at the time.
I think it's less "got trouble for killing a demon lord" and more of "got trouble for going in person on another plane and doing whatever was her fancy at the time". The powers that be apparently have some sort of unwritten agreement not to crap all over each other's home turfs, a Dee did just that.
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It sounds like they formed their own pop group of pretty goddesses. Someone with bad taste might refer to them as Dream Spice, Whip Spice, Sunshine Spice, and Flower Spice. ;bIt was only with the support of Calistria, Sarenrae, and Shelyn that Desna escaped the scandal relatively intact, in fact.See, now I'm spoiled for season 1 of 'Goddesses Gone Wild.'
Pharasma and Iomedae are both still bitter about not being invited.
Iomedae was all, like, wroth and ****, 'I'm all about valorous charges into the heart of chaos and evil, to save others wrongfully seized! I'm the me-damned goddess of chivalry!'
And Desna was, like, 'Back off, girlfriend, this called for subtle. Which is why I didn't tell you until after it was already over. You aren't subtle. And you cannot keep a secret. If I ever need a warhorse in a china shop, being ridden by a glowing, screaming crazy woman swinging a sword around, I'll call you first, promise.'
Well...
Pharasma, being the goddess of prophecy and death and all that, has more going on than being invited, even IF the souls Aolar had caught had been stolen before they were judged, which makes Pharasma super-mad. So while she didn't go on the mission or directly support Desna after the fact, she probably approved nonetheless.
And Iomedae wasn't even born yet.
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I don't get it Desna got in trouble for killing a demon lord who was messing with everybody...Aroden did not get into trouble for killing one also? I guess we know who was the 'favorite' at the time.
The big difference is that Aroden defeated a demon lord that had invaded Golarion (he didn't actually KILL Deskari), whereas Desna marched into the Abyss and killed a demon lord in his own home, then burned his home down.
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
So basically, evil is hypocritical.
I don't get it Desna got in trouble for killing a demon lord who was messing with everybody...Aroden did not get into trouble for killing one also? I guess we know who was the 'favorite' at the time.The big difference is that Aroden defeated a demon lord that had invaded Golarion (he didn't actually KILL Deskari), whereas Desna marched into the Abyss and killed a demon lord in his own home, then burned his home down.
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
Ah here I thought you guys was just killing off the guy with plot armor early on...:)
What is the difference between dead and defeated? I though Deskari was in the dead demon book part?
So basically, evil is hypocritical.
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
To paraphase a movie quote...
'Hello, Demon!'
You are expecting cxonsistency?
Also a couple of related questions...
Would a band of heroes who go into the Abyss and kill off a demon lord and destroy his castle recieve the same level of reaction?
Also who enforces the divine rules?
To paraphase a movie quote...
'Hello, Demon!'
You are expecting cxonsistency?
No, I guess not. I just think it's funny.
demons: 'RAWR! we're bad! we're EVIL! yeah baby!'
Goddess: [backstab] 'idiots.'
demons: 'OMG! you can't do that! it's totally not fair!'
Goddess: 'you'd have done the exact same thing.'
demons: 'um...well...yeah, but that's not the point.'
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Also a couple of related questions...
Would a band of heroes who go into the Abyss and kill off a demon lord and destroy his castle recieve the same level of reaction?
Also who enforces the divine rules?
My opinions?
Not directly, more likely "Wow, that guy was real stupid to be capped by a *mortal*". I'd picture the Abyss absorbing the Realm and the demons going "What Demon lord?" while kicking his remains under the rug. They might not go after the "Band of Heroes". Their decendents however...
Asmodeus enforces the rules, who else? ;-)
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So basically, evil is hypocritical.
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
No... evil is more apt to get riled up by a powerful good deity invading their home than they are a medium-level neutral deity defending a far away outpost on another plane is all. They're not all that different from lawful, good, neutral, or chaotic in that regard.
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I don't get it Desna got in trouble for killing a demon lord who was messing with everybody...Aroden did not get into trouble for killing one also? I guess we know who was the 'favorite' at the time.The big difference is that Aroden defeated a demon lord that had invaded Golarion (he didn't actually KILL Deskari), whereas Desna marched into the Abyss and killed a demon lord in his own home, then burned his home down.
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
Ah here I thought you guys was just killing off the guy with plot armor early on...:)
What is the difference between dead and defeated? I though Deskari was in the dead demon book part?
The difference between dead and defeated is that a dead demon lord is dead. Its body goes into the Abyssal "graveyard plane" of the Rift of Repose, its holdings are looted and probably destroyed, and its clerics no longer get spells. A defeated demon lord simply goes back home to grumble and whimper and start laying new plans—it can still grant spells to clerics and still lives. In Deskari's case, after Aroden defeated him, Deskari went "home" and started planning his revenge—when Aroden died, Deskari's revenge manifested as the Worldwound and now he's a bigger menace to that region than he EVER was back in Aroden's day. Aolar, on the other hand, is still dead and mostly forgotten.
No... evil is more apt to get riled up by a powerful good deity invading their home than they are a medium-level neutral deity defending a far away outpost on another plane is all. They're not all that different from lawful, good, neutral, or chaotic in that regard.So basically, evil is hypocritical.
The abyss isn't going to care all that much if a demon lord goes out of the abyss and gets himself defeated, but it's gonna get riled up fast if a good deity does a home invasion!
if the Abyss had the chance to stomp on someone, they'd take it. when the Abyss got stomped on, they got whiny.
all in all, it's a very good microcosm of evil across the planes - the Big Bad can dish it out but can't take it very well.