RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is an excellent time to point out this service for store owners and gamers. Get the word out, Paizo folk, to your LGS, so they can sign up, so we can help you find places to network and find other gamers!
Charlie Bell, thanks for the kudos. ^_^
Definately need to forward this on to the Guardtower... thanks Ms. Courts.
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I think one of the things gaming stores don't like about Paizo is the fact that they sell subscriptions, thus bypassing the game stores. And also give perks to the subscriptions that the stores can't offer. Such as the Pathfinder Advantage discount and pdfs.
Ummm they can offer a discount if they choose. I have a local game store who if your part of a "club" (R/C club or a gaming club like the old ANchorage Miniature Gaming CLub) you get a 15% off discount.
Plus if he just likes you he offers that as well. :O)
Sean
If my LGS does not have a product in stock they will order it for me with a ten percent discount on purchase price with no shipping which is awesome. I wish they carried more in stock though.
Way back in the day, there was this little store downtown owned by a guy and his wife that sold RPG stuff. It was the coolest place to go. Me and my friends would visit the place AT LEAST once a month to browse the new stuff, check the old stuff, and even fiddle through the used stuff (always something good in the used dtuff, lol). We'd talk with the owner who seemed to know EVERYTHING about gamming, the books, the figurines, what was comming soon... Everything.
Then they moved to a bigger place, expanded, hired staff, moved again to a bigger place, hired more staff, and well, the owners became sort of unavailable, the new stuff just poured in (all kind of wierd stuff), and the prices went up. Way up. And the service went down. Way down. Now when faced with a question, the store ckerks only have a single answer: " Yyes, yes; We'll be getting it in two weeks... Come back in two weeks..."
I stopped buying my RPG stuff from local stores the day I started buying here on Paizo.com... The stores carry SOME of the books I'm interested in and ask for WAY more than the prices I'm paying here.
PLUS, here, I get free help, explanations, and insights from the actual writters/publishers.
Paizo: Service, Availability, Prices... +1000
All this delivered right to your doorstep. Why would we go anywhere else.
Ultradan
Owner - Black Diamond Games
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I just want to point out that the original poster came into a store, found what he was looking for and bought it. It could have been a satisfactory experience if the store owner hadn't demoralized him. If the store owners attitude were different, he could have asked the customer what *else* he needed, offered to order or stock that, and picked the customers brain about organized play. He could have been apologetic that he hadn't quite ramped up his PF selection and perhaps provided examples of how that could happen. Perhaps a customer so intent on understanding the business side could organize some Pathfinder Society play. Pathfinder doesn't work for every store, but neither does D&D.
Everything else said is more or less on the money. Selling Pathfinder as a retailer means turning a blind eye to those who buy direct, to those who come for Pathfinder Society in my store who subscribe to nearly everything from Paizo and Amazon everything else. Yes, Paizo is a direct competitor of mine. They're also a partner. I can say the exact same thing about Wizards of the Coast. Paizo is just more obvious about it (and better at it). So I can gnash my teeth and lament lost sales or instead find a way to better serve my customers. I'm a business owner, not a fan boy, so my job is to find solutions, not pontificate (which I do anyway).
BTW, Gary, great blog, there are some recent posts you made that I want to post to my personal and fan pages on Facebook.
Chief Technical Officer
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I have to admit, I've been trying to figure out a way of finagling the "Paizo certificate" thing for a while. Perhaps you've nailed it?
Sadly, there are pretty big problems with the idea. To use a gift certificate in our store, you essentially convert it to store credit, which can then be spent on anything we sell. Thus, offering discounted gift certificates would essentially be the same as offering discounts on everything in the store. We obviously have decent enough margins on our own products that we can give up some percentage, but the margins on stuff we buy from distribution is much slimmer, and the margins on non-Paizo PDFs, books from Completist Publications, and many items in our sale section are even narrower than that. That last grouping, in particular, is so narrow that they're not included in the 15% Pathfinder Advantage discount, because we'd either make no money or even actually *lose* money discounting those.
While it's theoretically possible to create a class of store credit that could only be spent on Paizo products, I think that messaging that distinction would be difficult, and it would result in more customer service issues and more unhappy customers.
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Well, as far as stores with gaming content go, my "Local Game Store" is Books-a-Million, and I can't help but see a little conspiracy in their shelving of RPG books . . .
In their Roleplaying Games section, they have the expected plethora of 4E material, as well as some Star Wars RPG and World of Darkness stuff. No Pathfinder, though. They *do* carry PF books, but in a vastly different section. Where might that be? "Digital Lifestyles," right next to the WoW strategy guides. Really? If I hadn't been looking for a book on Adobe CS3, I never would have found those books.
I don't know if Paizo is aware of this practice, or if it's just some strange way that BaM does their inventory, but I'll play conspiracy theorist and call shenanigans on it!
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Chief Technical Officer
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Well, as far as stores with gaming content go, my "Local Game Store" is Books-a-Million, and I can't help but see a little conspiracy in their shelving of RPG books . . .
In their Roleplaying Games section, they have the expected plethora of 4E material, as well as some Star Wars RPG and World of Darkness stuff. No Pathfinder, though. They *do* carry PF books, but in a vastly different section. Where might that be? "Digital Lifestyles," right next to the WoW strategy guides. Really? If I hadn't been looking for a book on Adobe CS3, I never would have found those books.
I don't know if Paizo is aware of this practice, or if it's just some strange way that BaM does their inventory, but I'll play conspiracy theorist and call shenanigans on it!
That's weird. Which BaM location is that?
We've got a several BoM stores in my area, and they all carry a pretty good ammount of PF stuff. While I've yet to find PF books in the computer game section, I DO see them scattered about in the neighboring shelves, which are comic book graphic novels and Star Wars stuff. Oftentimes, the PF books are not even shelved together, just mixed in with all the non-4th ed books.
So naturally, I "help" by rearranging them and shelving them properly whenever I'm in the store. And I always pick up at least a map pack or something to show my support and appreciation for them carrying the line.
I suspect what you are seeing is a less-than-helpful employee stocker who's not a fan of PF doing this without the manager's knowledge.
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Wow, this thread has made me appreciate my FLGS (Mindgames in Oneida NY) so much more then I already did. Shortly after Christmas I went in and asked about a Pathfinder Corebook, they didn't have any but it was ordered for me, came in after less then a week, wasn't upcharged, and he ordered the rest of the hardcovers along with it, thereby guaranteeing I'd be back in the shop a lot. Since then I've also gotten the APG and Gamemastery guides and put in an order for the Bestiary (as a 3.5 player bought it before I could). Once the Bestiary comes in (should be there now actually, need to stop by tomorrow), I'll get the Guide to the Pathfinder Society and will be running PFS scenarios there fairly shortly (Meaning July or August).
Holt
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Yet more FLGS lunacy. I don't know what these stores are thinking.
Oh well. As and end cap to this thread, I just ordered the Bestiary from Amazon and I am off to my 3.5 game at a friends house.
Good luck to all the FLGS's out there! I won't be visiting another any time soon.
Your logic of "a game store I visited was crap, so good riddance and I'll never walk into any game store again" is so thunderingly profound that I'll need a bath and a walk to get it thru my head.
There are several stores in the Tucson and Phoenix areas that I particularly appreciate. I game most regularly at Hat's Games: Dave and his wife Sam (the proprietors) are especially friendly and helpful.
Yuma's game and comic store is a tiny place named Fan-Quest. On weekdays, it's only open in the evening because its owner (the charming Diane) needs to work other jobs just to make ends meet.
When I read about problems with local game stores, I often envision proprietors who are just scraping by, whose limited profit margins can't realistically compete with the Internet. The minimal wages they can afford to pay their staff mean that they'll have regular turnover (some of whom will be clueless or unhelpful). They can't afford to implement some of the suggestions people have for creating a better gaming environment. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't try, but their resources are limited.
The gamers need to do their part, too. I've seen people walk off leaving litter and filth scattered around their play area. Even worse, some leave the store bathroom looking like a third-world truck stop. I don't understand why their friends don't encourage these slobs to clean up after themselves.
Gamers need to support their chosen store if they expect it to survive. I often call a couple of weeks ahead, mentioning items that I would like to buy in time for them to be added to the store's order. Larger groups (such as organized play) can ask that players each chip in a dollar, which then goes toward a gift certificate raffle. (This can also be used to reward GMs by giving them extra raffle tickets for running tables.)
Yet more FLGS lunacy. I don't know what these stores are thinking.
Oh well. As and end cap to this thread, I just ordered the Bestiary from Amazon and I am off to my 3.5 game at a friends house.
Good luck to all the FLGS's out there! I won't be visiting another any time soon.
Wow I must be a lucky individual as I live in an area with seven game/comic stores that seriously try to cater to their folks. Only one of them I can't really comment about (it has game space, it has product, but I have a personal problem with the owner not the store itself). Though the rest will bend over backwards to help you find what you want, several send people to rival stores just to help out.
I know I am fortunate because I've only been to one...iffy store and that was because the owner had strange logic for not have certain games. The one that stands out was that he refused to carry Pokemon cards because he hated that adults would buy the cards and say they were for kids instead of owning tthat they collected. Still that store had plenty of space to play and would order most things...except pokemon.
This thread brought back fond memories (well, more creepy than fond, but all memories become fond after a while, I guess) of that FLGS I used to visit when younger, which was smacked right in the middle of a sex shop mall, from where all manners of shifty old men in hats walked off carrying mysterious paper bags. Gettig to the store was essentially a "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" kind of thing.
The store was pretty good, with an excellent variety of products and a very nice gaming atmosphere (I like clean, bright places for playing, which oddly was exactly how the store was, making quite the contrast with the less inviting surroundings), plus it was owned by a very nice old lady who always gave me dice for free. I remember there being regular events every week, and I used to attend the game demos that took place every friday afternoon, which led me into several games I had never heard back then (such as 7th Sea, which occupies the spot as my second favourite game after D&D). Great times, and great store. It did a lot for the hobby around these parts.
I stopped going there about 10 years ago, and last time I heard the nice old lady had passed away. Some other store bought its stock, but it's been a while since I visited a FLGS.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I sell a lot of books by saying, "And you can get the PDF for $10. I'll even give you a $10 discount so you can get the PDF for free." Works every time.I've seen you say some very clever things, but this is flat-out *brilliant*.
Heeeyyyy...are you stalking me? What are you? The Competition?
(-;
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I have to admit, I've been trying to figure out a way of finagling the "Paizo certificate" thing for a while. Perhaps you've nailed it?While it's theoretically possible to create a class of store credit that could only be spent on Paizo products, I think that messaging that distinction would be difficult, and it would result in more customer service issues and more unhappy customers.
Disclosure: I haven't gone back and re-read these posts, so I'm not 100% on what I was thinking.
More recent incarnations of this thought line: The reason for the gift certificates would be so that *I* could give them the PDF. I don't think I'd be after a discount on a "bulk" amount of GCs, necessarily (though it'd help). I dunno. Like I said, I've been trying to figure out an angle for a while. Every time I sit down to piece it together, my thoughts break down. Like this time. Leaving this alone, now...
Thanks for responding, though. When (if) I figure out an approach that might make sense to you, I'll be in touch.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Yet more FLGS lunacy. I don't know what these stores are thinking.
Oh well. As and end cap to this thread, I just ordered the Bestiary from Amazon and I am off to my 3.5 game at a friends house.
Good luck to all the FLGS's out there! I won't be visiting another any time soon.
Your experiences dictate your attitude and support. I understand that.
Just do those of us who are actually pleasant a favor: when you find one that is good, friendly, and lives up to your expectations, be every bit as vocal about that as you were about the crummy ones. It's only fair.
Have fun gaming.
This thread brought back fond memories (well, more creepy than fond, but all memories become fond after a while, I guess) of that FLGS I used to visit when younger, which was smacked right in the middle of a sex shop mall, from where all manners of shifty old men in hats walked off carrying mysterious paper bags. Gettig to the store was essentially a "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" kind of thing.
I don't know what's weirder - setting up shop in a sex shop mall or the very concept of a sex shop mall.
I mean sex shops, sure. But whole malls full of them?
I bet they had a lot of stuff to put up with in that neighbourhood.
"Hey, where's the cuffs and the whips? And I'd like one of those leather nurse costumes like I saw in that film!"
"Excuse me?"
"Well, this is a roleplaying shop, isn't it? I'm all into roleplaying. Great to have a shop that panders to that stuff, but these books look geeky. You should diversify a bit. The sexy geek role might be nice, but the maid's far better. Or the nurse. Or the schoolgirl!"
"Uh, we're not that kind of roleplaying store..."
The store was pretty good, with an excellent variety of products and a very nice gaming atmosphere (I like clean, bright places for playing, which oddly was exactly how the store was, making quite the contrast with the less inviting surroundings)
Well, if you're an RPG store located in Smut Central, you totally have to have a clean, bright place.
I had a very good experience in my FLGS recently.
First of all, I'm a subscriber to everything but Planet Stories, so that's not what I buy at the game store. However, every time I go there, I do try to buy something, be it a couple bottles of miniature paint or a few sets of dice because I do like the shop and want to support them.
Well, anyway, I went to buy foam to pack my metal minis in. (They're a GamesWorkshop/comic book/RPG/boardgame hybrid store with miniatures stuff having precedence.) The clerks were eating lunch when I got there, but as soon as I walked through the door they asked if they could help me. I didn't want to buy any of the pleather cases for miniatures that they had on display, mainly because I don't like logos on stuff, especially if they're logos for games I'm not playing, so a guy there recommended I get a comic book short box instead for $5. He said he and his wife, who was one of the two clerks, both use them for storing their own Warhammer armies but use a pleather case for transporting them. I talked to him for a bit, then to her, and even looked at one of the pleather cases, but decided to go with the cardboard comic book short box and some foam for 1 inch and 2 inch minis. ($25, total. Foam was a bit pricey to me, but whatever.)
They asked me what kind of miniatures they were and I said they were for roleplaying, then I ended up talking about Pathfinder with the female clerk for awhile. She told me they run 4e and Pathfinder games in the back and their regular Pathfinder GM had recently moved away so they were looking for a new one, trying to encourage me in that vein. While I was there a kid came in with Magic cards and asked the female clerk if she'd play with him. She told him she'd play once the other clerk started her shift, but couldn't until then because she needed to be available otherwise. I talked to them for awhile, spent some money, got what I wanted, and left feeling good about the overall experience.
I don't buy Pathfinder stuff there because I subscribe to it all, but if they carried Item Cards I would buy more of those there. (I always get three sets of the decks, but only one as a subscription.) I don't even buy miniatures there, because I'm mostly buying Reaper and Otherworld metal minis now, and they don't carry either of those really, but I do buy paint and accessories there, as demonstrated. So I do try to give them some business, it's just more ancillary to the hobby than direct purchases of the books. I'll likely buy more dice there too, a couple more sets never hurt to have around (unless you step on them). I also noticed when I was there last time that they sell 20 ounce soft drinks for $1, so I will definitely buy those there.
I'm now toying with the idea of running a Pathfinder game there but I like to use a lot more resources than I'd really like to pack up and haul there, and I'm not sure I'm able to run a game as often as they'd like one.
But anyway, I just thought I'd share my more recent experience and say not all game stores or game clerks are bad and I left pleased.
I'm based in Leicester. There used to be roleplaying stuff in a couple of stores here but that all died out about 7/8 years ago. If you want to wargame though there are a couple of stores that do it.
There is a new place in Nottingham apparently and there used to be a Forbidden Planet there. I've been to Spirit Games in Burton too on quite a few occassions. The thing is though that they are not local enough for me to consider them a local game store. I get most of my stuff online through Paizo, Amazon and IGUK.
Most of Leicester's gaming goes on through various societies. Both Universities have strong RPG soc's and I know of a couple of active societies in addition to that. So the scene is quite active, it's just that there is no store to support it.
I have been to several Gaming events (the Nationals in the 90s and early this century, back when I was active in my uni RPG soc) hosted by both uni's and had much fun. Shame they dont have a FLGS though.
I would caution against taking one person's POV or single encounter with a shop owner as any kind of gospel or general wisdom on the state of the entire industry. It would be silly and highly presumptuous to do so in the first place, but throw in what are obviously high emotions for this particular shop owner, and it seems even more ridiculous to base any kind of spending habits on this, and really probably is not wise to spread it around as if it is proof of any particular marketing ability on behalf of an entire company whose practices are otherwise unknown to us.
This seems like a lot of gossip, really.
Many of my own experiences with my own local FLGS (there are three I frequent, and several more than that within driving distance) are the opposite of this. Those managers and owners speak highly of PF and Paizo, and are reporting that sales are split rather evenly, but I also recognize that their opinions are slightly biased against 4th Ed, which means they have a personal, emotional stake in the matter.
Since I can sling gossip with the best of them, I'll go ahead and mention that I have been a fly on the wall at one of these places when the WoTC rep visited, and let's just say his demeanor was a little less than professional, even a bit pushy, and definitely whiney. Does that mean all WoTC reps are lacking business skills? Probably not, but I doubt it helped Wizards' standing with the store.
What I can say of what I heard is this: it is WoTC's position that this particular store must stock all those extra books that nobody is buying (not even at 30% when the local Borders went out of business last month), while the same FLGS only stocks as many PF books as they can move. Now think about that: Wizards makes this store keep scores and scores of books in stock, but the number of 4th Ed books actually selling is only equal to the PF sales. That's a lot of extra stock Wizards made this store buy, which they will very definitely take a loss on down the road. As a buyer by profession, and a guy who also creates things to sell as a hobby, I know which method is better for business, and it isn't the one drawn up by the big faceless board game manufacturer.
Seriously, I would get fired if I signed that contract.
"Uh, we're not that kind of roleplaying store..."
"Sure you are, look, it even says Dungeon Masters Guide!"
"Sure you are, look, it even says Dungeon Masters Guide!"
"Uh, we're not that kind of roleplaying store..."
"DO NOT CONTRADICT ME YOU WORTHLESS WORM!
Uh, I mean, no, you're surely mistaken."
I live in so-cal and have visited at least 15 different brick and mortar stores. I chat up the owner or sales person and almost 100% of them advise they sell 50/50 when it comes to D&D and Pathfinder. D&D became book of the month club and so far, Paizo has not which is great.