Bought core rulebook and spoke with store manager about PF


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So I was in a FLGS today and saw the core rulebook on the shelf (one copy, third printing) so I went ahead and bought it. I could have paid a lot less money at Amazon and even at Pazio.com but I figured I'd give the brick and mortar a boost.

I took some time to speak with the owner about Pathfinder and he said he sells 4E at about 6 times the rate of PF. He also went on an unsolicited rant about how Hasbro/WoTC supports the FLGS while Paizo does not. He even said he has come on the forums and spoke with Lisa (mentioned her by name) about doing more to support the FLGS, got no or an unsatisfactory response, and moved on. Today he only stocks 1 copy of the PF hardbacks and doesn't order more until that 1 copy sells.

So for me that about does it for my "support the FLGS" effort. Honestly, I could care less if any or all of the FLGS's go down the drain so I'm not going to spend my hard earned money supporting them when I can get the same product and a larger selection for at least 20% less at Amazon, not to mention Pazio.com and subscriptions and PDFs. I'll be getting my Bestiaries and anything else I need from Amazon.

Overall I think the owner of the store was friendly, seemed dedicated, and maybe was slightly jaded, but for the most part made sense in his rant. So much sense in fact that it seems to me that Paizo could do more for the FLGS's but chooses not to, which is fine by me. I don't seem to have a problem getting what I want when I want it at a good price all online so I'm not paying a premium in time and money to support the brick and mortars. Maybe a little sad, but true.

Shadow Lodge

You could point him to the Black Diamond Games blog which has a fairly version neutral point of view and gives some good advice on how game shops can profit from carrying Pathfinder. In his shop he said this month "It was the predicted point in which Pathfinder finally overtook it and will undoubtedly continue its lead for the foreseeable future." Gary stocks all 4e books and Pathfinder books and he offers well attended weekly game nights for both systems.

One of the big tips Gary gives is that carrying just a few products doesn't serve you well as a shop owner. It's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. If customers walk into your shop and see the Core book and maybe the APG they aren't going to come back when the latest new Paizo product is released.

Anyhow... lots of good stuff, you have to dig back through his blogs, tons of great articles and advice for shop owners.


I think the shopowner is a nitwit that hasn't taken the time to understand his market, his product, and his potential opportunities.

Just sayin'.


Shifty wrote:

I think the shopowner is a nitwit that hasn't taken the time to understand his market, his product, and his potential opportunities.

Just sayin'.

Bingo. By comparison, my FLGS runs out of PF materials because they sell faster than 4E BY FAR. Also, my FLGS is large enough to run TV ads.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I can tell you right now that the store you are going to is truely an anomoly as far as selling PF.

I visit on the norm 1/2 dozen gaming stores in the vicinity and PF is predominantly stocked in each of them.

I hear nothing but good things especially when sales is the subject. In other words, sales are good when PF is mentioned and sales are not so good with 4th edition material from WOTC.

Please tell me the name of your gaming store... ;D

Silver Crusade

I have worked retale for over 12 years now. If your stocking one book at a time. You will never get any profit off it! You need to stock 1 more book then you sell in a weak befor restocking. That means you have one book in the store at all times for people to buy. It's basic retale knowlage. So on his part EPIC FAIL knowlage retale! Most people that buy from FLAG do so becous they want to. Not becous they need to or it's cheaper. The reason FLAG and book stores don't go away is people like to see what there buying. Unless they know what they want and whats in it. In that case it's 2011 you can order it over the internet cheaper.


I think that part of the issue is that a major way in which Pazio supports FLGS's is through society play, if a FLGS does not wish to participate they are making a decision to not accept the support offered and therefore have no one but themselves to blame for perceived lack of support.

Just because you are not given exactly what you may want from a publisher does not justify stocking ONE copy of a rules set, it would pretty hard to sell enough when you rant to customers about disliking the publisher and dont even have enough copies for more than ONE person to purchase each month, nice job FLGS, keep making people order from amazon.

Don't get me wrong I refuse to purchase pathfinder material from any source other than paizo or my FLGS, which I am very lucky to live near the largest of such in new england.

Getting all butthurt about how a publisher has or has not supported you is not a reasonable reason to deny product to those who want it, yea that'll make you money LGS!

Edit: --RETAIL--


I stopped supporting my FLGS two years ago because it was not my FLGS it was instead my AELGS (A****LE Employing Local Game Store). The guy who owned it was nice, I like him. But he hires your prototypical nerd game players for employees. I understand hiring someone who is into the hobby, you want your employee's to know the product and be enthusiastic about it.

However, the people he had working there were incompetent, and more concerned with discussing games and rules with customers than actually being employed.

I had one guy promise to call all the other stores (it's a chain) and call me back if they had the book I wanted at one of them. Two days later, I call back and talk to the store manager. He tells me that the employee is there, and that I said I'd call back about it. The manager is in the middle of telling me that I can't expect them to call me back when I told them I'd call back (more along the lines of deriding me as being unreasonable) when he suddenly stops talking. Then he asks my phone number. I give it to him, and he sighs. "Oh, uh, yeah, sorry. Here's your name and the book and your phone number, obviously we were supposed to call you back."

Not a month before, I walked into a store and the only people in it were two employee's. I'm trying to ask about bases for miniatures, but I had a stuttering problem when I was a teenager, and when I'm tired, it comes back. I was exhausted that day (had just flew back from England the day before). I can't get out the word 'Bases', I'm holding my fingers up to show the size I want, but I'm stumbling on that word. So the employee, who got ticked off because I interrupted him discussing his character with the other employee, holds up his fingers too and starts to mimic my stutter and tell me to hurry up.

Those two things were the last straw for me, I stopped buying anything at the store unless it was on deep sale, or it was the auction they hold every 3 months.

Then I moved to Texas. Now I'm 45 minutes from the nearest FLGS. There's two, and one struck me as just like the one I left behind. They didn't do anything to help you find other players, they wanted you to come in and play at their PFS instead, which I hate.

The other one was very nice, very friendly, and very helpful. I'd support them if they weren't 45 minutes away. :( It's just too far to drive right now with gas prices this high. So I get my subscription from Paizo and buy what I want from here, Amazon, and B. Dalton.

EDIT : Oh, the employee who was making fun of my stutter told me to 'ggg ggg ggoo to the Warhamm mmm mmm er 40 kk k k k k store'.


I was happy to learn that there is a game store in Taiwan. On a recent trip to the capital, Taipei, I managed to find it. I had a wallet full of money, and was hoping to support the hell out of them.

Their prices were simply way too high for me to consider buying anything from them.

Dungeon Tiles base set: $35.00
Common miniature, that is $0.75 elsewhere: $10.00
Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Poor condition: $95.00

I find it inconceivable that anyone would pay those prices.

Further complicating matters, they had no prices marked on their products. I had to ask the price of everything, and wait while the manager phoned the owner to ask. It is possible that the prices were inflated fraudulently by the clerk.

They had things that I wanted, but rolled 1s on profession(retail)

Grand Lodge

Taliesin Hoyle wrote:

I was happy to learn that there is a game store in Taiwan. On a recent trip to the capital, Taipei, I managed to find it. I had a wallet full of money, and was hoping to support the hell out of them.

Their prices were simply way too high for me to consider buying anything from them.

Dungeon Tiles base set: $35.00
Common miniature, that is $0.75 elsewhere: $10.00
Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Poor condition: $95.00

I find it inconceivable that anyone would pay those prices.

Further complicating matters, they had no prices marked on their products. I had to ask the price of everything, and wait while the manager phoned the owner to ask. It is possible that the prices were inflated fraudulently by the clerk.

They had things that I wanted, but rolled 1s on profession(retail)

Not sure if you hit the Mainland very often or Hong Kong but HK has at least one good gaming shop (RPGs not so much), and Mainland China is great for low prices on Boardgames for Taobao.

If your Mandarin is ok, headback again and this time ask to speak to the manager on pricing - I can't help thinking the clerk was screwing you OR expecting you to haggle and so boosting the price. Heck, the boss may even speak English.

The Exchange

Helaman wrote:

Not sure if you hit the Mainland very often or Hong Kong but HK has at least one good gaming shop (RPGs not so much), and Mainland China is great for low prices on Boardgames for Taobao.

If your Mandarin is ok, headback again and this time ask to speak to the manager on pricing - I can't help thinking the clerk was screwing you OR expecting you to haggle and so boosting the price. Heck, the boss may even speak English.

Heh, mentioning Hong Kong brings back memories... I remember walking by the Games Workshop store in Hong Kong years back.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm not sure what sort of support the original game store was looking for. Paizo sends stores free posters for advertisement. They contribute a bunch to Free RPG Day. They have an organized play group. That's really more than I expect for most RPG companies Paizo's size. Ok, they don't have cardboard standees like WotC.

Maybe I'm confused about what sort of support Steve Jackson Games, White Wolf, Goodman Games, Mongoose Publishing, Fantasy Flight Games, or other RPG companies are doing that Paizo doesn't do. I mean, nobody else has WotC's marketing budget.


We have no local games stores, friendly or otherwise.

Frankly I never felt their loss, as there WERE game stores, but they were generally owned and run by people who thought taht they were owed a living and would merrily pricejack and rip off thier young (and exploitable staff) and generally treat everyone as though they were a thief.

Anyhow, there is a market for gaming stores, however the people inclined to do so are basically just old dinosaur wargamers who moonlight as RPG sellers, and thats really not what we are looking for either.

Retail isn't hard.


The main stores around here mainly stock 4e stuff, but seem to focus on Magic the most. Both stores only have a small area for Pathfinder.

I guess that means I'll be using Paizo.com.

Liberty's Edge

The gamestore closest to my house has a similar issue, sans rant. He complains that he'll have Pathfinder sitting on the shelves, then all suddenly sell out, and then he'll be out for a couple weeks while people ask about it.


Luckily here in Vancouver you can't go 6 blocks without running into a game store. Are you people not in larger cities or is that just the norm for wherever you're located?


Major capital city of about 4.2 million people.

We have pretty much one gaming store (apparently).


So odd, Van city (greater) is around 3.5 and has 20-30, at least, if you include stores where pathfinder is sold but isnt a gaming store, I hesitate to do the math.

Liberty's Edge

300,000 and four (2 a chain) game stores.


More recently we had the last gaming store I was aware of close up for 'renovations' a few months back, and I believe they have another store a bazillion miles away across the city (its a big city, take a packed lunch)

Other than that we have a few Games Workshop stores.

I would suspect there might be one or two comic book shops carrying gaming stuff, but could well be on a goose chase with that one.


Don't ignore comic shops and they won't ignore you. They have access to a lot of things and are usually desperate for business. They'll bring in anything and give you a good price.


Ironically the Gaming Stores we DID have were owned by the Comic Book Shop people who decided to branch out and start gaming stores... :p

Liberty's Edge

@mdt: anyone mocking your stutter is a f***ing ***hole, and deserves, at best, a mocking retort and to never give them your dollars again. That's fully absurd. You're a customer. Good grief, what a bunch of idiots.


I think one of the things gaming stores don't like about Paizo is the fact that they sell subscriptions, thus bypassing the game stores. And also give perks to the subscriptions that the stores can't offer. Such as the Pathfinder Advantage discount and pdfs.


In our odd world this really seems like an important issue. I've completely ignored Pathfinder for year or two because I never really got the sense that it was something that was going to last. I wasn't actively researching the thing and didn't really ever look at what the products that were being offered. I've seen people state over at the "Other Game" boards that the thing wasn't selling. So why have any interest?

Than I saw a couple of weeks ago that it was selling and that changed my view that it wasn't going to last to something that I'd spend some time researching. The important thing is that people don't generally view the game as a failed product otherwise they won't pick it up til it's 2.99 a copy.

booger=boy


Maybe people where you live just ain't buying a lot of Pathfinder.

Good christ, not everything has to be a conspiracy.


that, or it's "Dnd" partisanship. There are definately people out there who probably see Paizo as traitors to the "Dnd" name/game. I know that's odd but that's the impression I've gotten.

booger=boy


Funny concept, I see Paizo as the 'True Believers' of D&D.


the whole situation is screwy! :lol:

I never would have seen this coming. I always thought it would be "Dnd". I may very well agree with you that Paizo are the keepers of the secret fire. They certainly seem like they've got some good creative people.

I think it's definately a healthier scene here. Last time I looked at the "Other Game" boards every thread was about "Essentials" and which of their books were the Dnd books. That didn't inspire too much confidence in me about who was manning the ship.

booger=boy

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Edition War sense tingling...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
cibet44 wrote:


He also went on an unsolicited rant about how Hasbro/WoTC supports the FLGS while Paizo does not. He even said he has come on the forums and spoke with Lisa (mentioned her by name) about doing more to support the FLGS, got no or an unsatisfactory response, and moved on.

This sounds familiar.

Silver Crusade

When I used to work in bookstores our manager had a saying:

"A book doesn't sell, a shelf sells"

If you have a limited selection it won't sell. This is particularly bad in certain game stores because some owners won't stock things on principle because they don't like it. Comic stores suffer from the same problem.

Vancouver seems quite blessed with game stores. Over here in Blighty game stores are a very rare beast (Games Workshop notwithstanding). I live in a city of 300,000 odd people and there is no FLGS within easy distance.

Scarab Sages

cibet44 wrote:
I took some time to speak with the owner about Pathfinder and he said he sells 4E at about 6 times the rate of PF. He also went on an unsolicited rant about how Hasbro/WoTC supports the FLGS while Paizo does not.

Leaving aside the horror stories of UFLGSs we have all known, which can be a thread in itself, I'm seriously interested to know; in what way does he see WotC as supporting local stores?

Is it in their discount rate, returns policy, free product, point-of-sale displays?

What things do they consider WotC do well?
And are these practices normal across the industry?

IE, which company is the odd one out?

Shadow Lodge

FallofCamelot wrote:

When I used to work in bookstores our manager had a saying:

"A book doesn't sell, a shelf sells"

If you have a limited selection it won't sell. This is particularly bad in certain game stores because some owners won't stock things on principle because they don't like it. Comic stores suffer from the same problem.

This is more or less what Gary said and it makes a lot of sense. If I want a PF book I KNOW going to Black Diamond Games in Concord he's going to have it. If I go to any of a dozen shops here in Stockton it's a crap shoot. As a result, the only place I really think of to buy PF books is Black Diamond or online. I know it's kind of against the whole "Support your FLGS" idea but for me the closest shop is 20 minutes driving and I'm not making that drive unless I *know* it's going to be there.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Meanwhile, at Black Diamond Games, Pathfinder overtakes D&D.


cfalcon wrote:
@mdt: anyone mocking your stutter is a f***ing ***hole, and deserves, at best, a mocking retort and to never give them your dollars again. That's fully absurd. You're a customer. Good grief, what a bunch of idiots.

That was pretty much my feeling on the subject, which is when I stopped buying things there unless they were at a deep discount (50% off).

Sczarni

Snorter wrote:
cibet44 wrote:
I took some time to speak with the owner about Pathfinder and he said he sells 4E at about 6 times the rate of PF. He also went on an unsolicited rant about how Hasbro/WoTC supports the FLGS while Paizo does not.

Leaving aside the horror stories of UFLGSs we have all known, which can be a thread in itself, I'm seriously interested to know; in what way does he see WotC as supporting local stores?

Is it in their discount rate, returns policy, free product, point-of-sale displays?

What things do they consider WotC do well?

The only things I can think of are:

1)standups/bookmarks given to stores as freebies to handout prior to releases.

2)the prize packs for delves (not sure if this is happening anymore thanks to the death of minis)

3)Ordering directly through them, and how it allows game stores primere status on their website store search.

Sovereign Court

Sigh... These topics always make me wistful. Wish I even had one FLGS in my area.

Sovereign Court

FallofCamelot wrote:

When I used to work in bookstores our manager had a saying:

"A book doesn't sell, a shelf sells"

If you have a limited selection it won't sell. This is particularly bad in certain game stores because some owners won't stock things on principle because they don't like it. Comic stores suffer from the same problem.

Vancouver seems quite blessed with game stores. Over here in Blighty game stores are a very rare beast (Games Workshop notwithstanding). I live in a city of 300,000 odd people and there is no FLGS within easy distance.

Where are you?

When I lived in Nottingham there was only a little part of a comic shop but Oxford, Birmingham and Burton-on-Trent all have proper game stores.

I still buy a lot from online stores though.


@mdt: I have a a speech impediment. I have ran into similiar siturations before. When it happens usualy I leave and never come back even for a 50% discount). But if I knew the manager....I would have waited for him...or gone and seen him and tell him exactly what happened. I would than atleast gaved him a chance to fix the problem...if they don't I will never step into that store again.

As for either Pazio or WotC supporting your FLGS(they do exist...) both in my opinion do a horrible job at it.

Pazio with those subsciption benefits...a pretty good discount... getting the book early(usualy) and a free PdF.

WotC... the entire DDI makes buying the books irrelvelant. Atleast in my area D&D 4th ed does not sell...not because people are not playing it...but because they don't need the books with a subsciption.

Both companies also go into the bulk salers who can undercut any brick and motor storefront there is.

So I would say which company supports FLGS is a wash. Personaly...I think they should do more....but that is just for the fact that I see FLGS as a very smart way to expand the hobby.


John Kretzer wrote:

@mdt: I have a a speech impediment. I have ran into similiar siturations before. When it happens usualy I leave and never come back even for a 50% discount). But if I knew the manager....I would have waited for him...or gone and seen him and tell him exactly what happened. I would than atleast gaved him a chance to fix the problem...if they don't I will never step into that store again.

He was in Tennessee at the time, so not available to tell. By the time he got back (8 months later), I had already stopped shopping there. I told him at the auction they run every 3 months. The auction is a thing where customers bring in product and the store auctions it off for them. The store gets the cash, the customers get store credit. So I was ok spending money on that. I found out the guy was fired about 3 months after this interaction because of other complaints against him by other customers. Those were not the only incidents that caused me to stop spending money there, just the two biggest gaffs that were the final straws. I'd been getting sub-par customer service for years, and complaining to the owner for years. His response was always to the effect of "Well, really competent people won't work for what I can afford to pay".

Sovereign Court

GeraintElberion wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:

When I used to work in bookstores our manager had a saying:

"A book doesn't sell, a shelf sells"

If you have a limited selection it won't sell. This is particularly bad in certain game stores because some owners won't stock things on principle because they don't like it. Comic stores suffer from the same problem.

Vancouver seems quite blessed with game stores. Over here in Blighty game stores are a very rare beast (Games Workshop notwithstanding). I live in a city of 300,000 odd people and there is no FLGS within easy distance.

Where are you?

When I lived in Nottingham there was only a little part of a comic shop but Oxford, Birmingham and Burton-on-Trent all have proper game stores.

I still buy a lot from online stores though.

Southampton. All we have is a pretty shoddy forbidden planet.


william cohen wrote:
I can tell you right now that the store you are going to is truely an anomoly as far as selling PF.

Well I certainly thought this was the case before going in. I was shocked at his reaction to Pathfinder when I asked about it, especially considering I was buying the core rulebook from him.


calagnar wrote:
I have worked retale for over 12 years now. If your stocking one book at a time. You will never get any profit off it! You need to stock 1 more book then you sell in a weak befor restocking. That means you have one book in the store at all times for people to buy. It's basic retale knowlage. So on his part EPIC FAIL knowlage retale! Most people that buy from FLAG do so becous they want to. Not becous they need to or it's cheaper. The reason FLAG and book stores don't go away is people like to see what there buying. Unless they know what they want and whats in it. In that case it's 2011 you can order it over the internet cheaper.

What was really odd to me was he had no AP volumes on the shelf. Not one. To me if you were going to cherry pick what you stocked of PF you would start with a complete AP or two since those appeal to both 3.5 and PF players (and even some 4E players).


mdt wrote:
He was in Tennessee at the time, so not available to tell. By the time he got back (8 months later), I had already stopped shopping there. I told him at the auction they run every 3 months. The auction is a thing where customers bring in product and the store auctions it off for them. The store gets the cash, the customers get store credit. So I was ok spending money on that. I found out the guy was fired about 3 months after this interaction because of other complaints against him by other customers. Those were not the only incidents that caused me to stop spending money there, just the two biggest gaffs that were the final straws. I'd been getting sub-par customer service for years, and complaining to the owner for years. His response was always to the effect of "Well, really competent people won't work for what I can afford to pay".

I was more speaking in general and sharing the pain of dealing w/ idiots who never outgrew high school. How you dealt with it is also fine.

Off Topic:I would ask this in a PM but that auction idea sounds very interesting. I am always on the lookout for new ideas to pass alone to my friend who owns my FLGS. Could you give more details on it?

Sovereign Court

Glutton wrote:
Luckily here in Vancouver you can't go 6 blocks without running into a game store. Are you people not in larger cities or is that just the norm for wherever you're located?

We must be living in different Vancouvers....or I am that out of the loop. I don't generally visit LGSs anymore but still, there are not that many here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
karlbadmanners wrote:
I think that part of the issue is that a major way in which Pazio supports FLGS's is through society play,

It may depend on what that store is doing already. If they're already committing their spare time on other activities, i.e. 4th edition play, Games Workshop miniature combat, battle-tech duels, whatever they simply may not have an open slot for anything else.

Another factor is the patrons. Much of what goes on outside of sales in a games store is heavily dependent on the imitative of the customers themselves.


John Kretzer wrote:


I was more speaking in general and sharing the pain of dealing w/ idiots who never outgrew high school. How you dealt with it is also fine.

Ah, sorry. :)

John Kretzer wrote:


Off Topic:I would ask this in a PM but that auction idea sounds very interesting. I am always on the lookout for new ideas to pass alone to my friend who owns my FLGS. Could you give more details on it?

Off Topic Response:

It's actually a great way for a FLGS to make money. What they would do is announce it 60 days in advance. Then allow 2 weeks to bring in product for auction. They take the name and phone of the person bringing it in. Then they set aside a weekend about 3 weeks after they take their first customer product to do the auction.

People can put in sealed bids on the items, and a store employee bids the sealed bids during the auction. They generally go at a $1 per bid, so it starts at 1, then 2, then 3, etc. Generally it's 'bundles', so 2-5 related books. People who submit things to the auction can put minimum bids on it, and if it doesn't sell, they call the person to come get it again.

All cash goes to the store, and the people get store credit for their product. The store collects sales tax on the store credit, to make things easier at the auction. So whatever you bid is what you pay.

The FLGS I was at in St. Louis stayed afloat partially due to these auctions. THere's had grown to taking 3 days, and generated easily $5,000 to $10,000 per auction. That's just from bids. Not to mention the fact people usually buy more than their store credit covers.

Silver Crusade

GeraintElberion wrote:
FallofCamelot wrote:

When I used to work in bookstores our manager had a saying:

"A book doesn't sell, a shelf sells"

If you have a limited selection it won't sell. This is particularly bad in certain game stores because some owners won't stock things on principle because they don't like it. Comic stores suffer from the same problem.

Vancouver seems quite blessed with game stores. Over here in Blighty game stores are a very rare beast (Games Workshop notwithstanding). I live in a city of 300,000 odd people and there is no FLGS within easy distance.

Where are you?

When I lived in Nottingham there was only a little part of a comic shop but Oxford, Birmingham and Burton-on-Trent all have proper game stores.

I still buy a lot from online stores though.

I'm based in Leicester. There used to be roleplaying stuff in a couple of stores here but that all died out about 7/8 years ago. If you want to wargame though there are a couple of stores that do it.

There is a new place in Nottingham apparently and there used to be a Forbidden Planet there. I've been to Spirit Games in Burton too on quite a few occassions. The thing is though that they are not local enough for me to consider them a local game store. I get most of my stuff online through Paizo, Amazon and IGUK.

Most of Leicester's gaming goes on through various societies. Both Universities have strong RPG soc's and I know of a couple of active societies in addition to that. So the scene is quite active, it's just that there is no store to support it.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

deinol wrote:

I'm not sure what sort of support the original game store was looking for. Paizo sends stores free posters for advertisement. They contribute a bunch to Free RPG Day. They have an organized play group. That's really more than I expect for most RPG companies Paizo's size. Ok, they don't have cardboard standees like WotC.

Amusing fact. I've seen the Gaurdtower put Pathfinder stuff in the WotC cardboard stand. :-)

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