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The Immortals Handbook is decent, provided that you accept the author's slant on divine-level advancement. For my money, the best treatment of divine-level entities is still The Primal Order - a generic book published by WoTC way back before they hit the big time. That book got them into a fair bit of legal trouble and it can be hard to find a copy nowadays, but it's worth hunting it down if you are interested in the subject matter.
I think it's a safe bet Lisa may have a copy.
Did she even work on it?|
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Okay normally I don't post again like this if I can help but... ... because Birthright was/is my favorite set of rules in a setting over all.
Yes, yes they did. And it was even acknowledged as a FanSite (rare for Wizards to do). They are still up
You can find the 3.5 conversion here.
Here we are,
We're Princes of the Univer-er-erse!.Here we belong.
Fighting to survive
In a world with the darkest power!
Yes, yes they did. And it was even acknowledged as a FanSite (rare for Wizards to do). They are still up
Birthright, Darksun, Planescape, and Spelljammer all have dedicated FanSites, with perpetual licenses granted back when TSR was feeling generous. (The official perpetual licences being the only reason Wizards couldn't revoke their rights after they bought TSR, if I'm remembering my gaming history correctly.)
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I don't have it in front of my, so I'm working from memory, but overgods are on the low-middle side of their scale. Yeah, FR's Ao is low-powered in this book.
Home now. A simplified version of the rankings of entities with rules in the Immortal's Handbook: Ascension, along with the Divine Rank needed to ascent to that level.
Divine Class: Mortal, Disciple; DR: 1
Divine Class: Mortal, Prophet; DR: 2
Divine Class: Immortal, Hero-Diety; DR: 3
Divine Class: Immortal, Quasi-Diety; DR: 4
Divine Class: Immortal, Demi-Diety; DR: 6
Divine Class: Immortal, Lesser Diety; DR: 8
Divine Class: Immortal, Intermediate Diety; DR: 12
Divine Class: Immortal, Greater Diety; DR: 16
Divine Class: Sidereal, Elder One DR: 24
Divine Class: Sidereal, Old One; DR: 32
Divine Class: Sidereal, First One; DR: 48
Divine Class: Eternal, Demiurge (Stage I); DR: 64
Divine Class: Eternal, Demiurge (Stage II); DR: 96
Divine Class: Eternal, Demiurge (Stage III); DR: 128
Divine Class: Eternal, Time Lord; DR: 200
Divine Class: Eternal, High Lord; DR: 400
Divine Class: Supernal, Supreme Being; DR: Highest
Divine Class: Akasha, Akashic Memory; DR: Infinite
So basically, Ao from the FR was divine rank 24 under this system. A High Lord has divine rank 200.
Is the Immortals Handbook worth the investment, if I intend to play some "post-20th" that has only a hint of divinity in it?The Immortals Handbook is decent, provided that you accept the author's slant on divine-level advancement. For my money, the best treatment of divine-level entities is still The Primal Order - a generic book published by WoTC way back before they hit the big time. That book got them into a fair bit of legal trouble and it can be hard to find a copy nowadays, but it's worth hunting it down if you are interested in the subject matter.
I'm a fan of The Immortals Handbook, though I prefer to take a different route than the author with respect to the cosmology in my game. I'm using his expanded size rules, and adapting his Ascension rules for my own game.
I'm also planning on adapting some of the BESMd20 Anime abilities as Epic/Divine abilities. Compared to a standard game, some (dare I say most) of the abilities in BESM are too far out there, but they start to work when you're talking about mythic superheroes/deities.
The d20 Mecha rules are good for setting prices on vehicles and oddball constructs too. One of our DMs is letting me use them for statting out golem armor in our 3.5 Epic game (lvl 20-23), as opposed to just making it a lesser artifact like the one in the ELH. I compared the costs I get with d20 Mecha to the new rules in Ultimate Magic, and when I tweak them to have nearly the same abilities, the costs are within about 10% of each other for many of them, like animated objects and stone golems. (Let's not discuss the Adamantine Golem for now. Don't want the DM to notice what I'm plotting. Mua ha ha.)
As you can see, I'm a big fan of Guardians of Order books. Shame that they went out of business. I understand that their main author / CEO left the publishing business entirely and ended up in real estate. Too bad I'm not looking for a house in Ontario.
I miss Mark MacKinnon.
It's also sad that White-Wolf is just sitting on the BESM rules as well. Although the 3e BESM book isn't that expensive as a PDF on DriveThru RPG these days. For anyone getting into d20 BESM rules as add ons to your game, I would strongly suggest the d20 BESM besitary which breaks down many of the 3.5 monsters using that point system. It has many good examples of how to apply the abilities without going totally off the map.
DreamPod9s MechaCompendum was also handy for d20 mecha, but not the cheapest reference.
If I could muster the engery I'd like to port over the 3e BESM point system to d20 BESM. Far more refined and easier to adjudicate modifications to abilities.
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Some things I'd like to see addressed in a Mythic Adventures book (and why I think so many people are asking for one, despite having never played at this level)
1) High-level combat is slower. That needs to be addressed.
a) resources to improve your mental math skills (c'mon, it's 5+5+3)
b) ways to speed calculation (average damage, roll half the dice and x2, have crits do max damage, etc.)
c) advice for how to deal with 5-15 active spell effects at a time
d) advice for organizing as a player (ex: calculate attacks when charging, power attacking, and normally NOW, not during fight)
e) get out the egg timer
2) The difference between a well built character and a poorly built character is HUGE. Players and DMs need advice on this one.
3) The expectations built into the system need to be brought out into the open and written down
...by 4th level, I expect characters to have a way to aid an investigation, a skill that contributes to the group, a way to fight, and the ability to overcome flying opponents and DR/magic, DR/bludgeoning, and fire resistance
...by 11th level, I expect characters to solve mysteries without much in the way of obvious clues, be able to travel long distances easily, to survive in the wild indefinitely, to fly or dimension door as needed, to overcome a wide variety of status effects, and to get help from powerful allies in a pinch
4) So that high level (15-25) adventures can be written on a shared set of expectations without as many cries of munchkinism or "No fair killer AP!"
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Some things I'd like to see addressed in a Mythic Adventures book....
I agree with pretty much everything that you have said here - one of the big issues with high-level play is that the maths behind the game system starts to break down around level 18+. At that level, the size of the bonuses that characters have to certain abilities is much larger than the random element introduced by rolling a d20 - effectively reducing the role of chance in the game. High-level combat can be a matter of attrition unless you can target a specific weakness or vulnerability. This slows the action right down at that level, creating combats that hinge on indentifying and exploiting weaknesses in the opponent's defenses.
To make matters worse, the saving throw system starts to break down as you approach level 20, increasing the 'swinginess' of combat. Take a look at the gap between a character's best saving throw and their worst saving throw at different levels and you will see that by level 20 the gap between them grows to a size that is difficult to bridge. For example, at 5th level the gap between a fighter's Fort save and Will save is 3 points, at 10th level it is 4 points, at 15th level it is 5 points, and at 20th level it is 6 points. This means that the vulnerability of fighters towards effects that trigger a Will save actually increases as the characters goes up in level - assuming that the difficulty of the Will Save increases at the normal rate!
In effect, around 20th level characters become almost invulnerable to certain forms of attack - but remain extremely vulnerable to modes of attack that target their weakest saving throw. I would like to see a Mythic Adventures book that re-normalizes the maths behind the system at level 20+, ensuring that the game remains playable at those levels.
I have a question for those who want an "Mythic Adventures Handbook"...lets say it gets released. It places a hard cap on level advancement at level 36. How long until this same discussion comes up asking for an "Uber-Mythic Adventures Handbook" covering levels 37+? If we're going to have a hard cap, and actually keep it, 20th levels seems to be pretty good, since that's about the level that nascent demon lords hang out out, and full demon lords are listed as being not that much higher.
Hopefully, they will have the foresight to explain the 'how' behind leveling into the stratosphere, so that if a few hundred people are interested in this "Uber-Mythic" thing, they can go there without needing a whole book.
I know, I know. "Then why do we need a whole book for 20th-36th (or whatever)?"
I'll tell you why: The lingering bitter aftertaste of ELH (which I didn't think was that bad, at the time, but given how awesome Paizo has been, I started to have doubts) can't be the legacy of high-level play that the world is left with.
And we know the game changes as time goes by (some say it's 6th, some 8th, some 12th, some 15th, some 20th, whatever). The people who want the cap at those lower levels have a system by which to do that. And it's free! E6. Of course, up to 20th, you can use the PF Core Book, too. But those of us who want to see how far we can go, and 20 levels just ain't enough, have only a few options (PF suggestions in Core, the old ELH, Immortals stuff, and this Primal Order thing, which I've just downloaded).
Problem is, none of these options are as optimal (no flames for mentioning the O word, please) relative to the quality we've seen in APG, UM, and (presumably) UC.
If this is what Paizo can do with 20 levels, just imagine *shudders with delight* what 16 more levels could hold!
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I think it's a safe bet Lisa may have a copy.
Did she even work on it?
My copy of The Primal Order has a special mention of Lisa on the credits page:
In particular a special word of appreciation goes to Lisa Stevens who spent many long hours on the phone, and eventually packed up her life and moved to Seattle to join Wizards of the Coast
This was obviously a fateful moment!
There is also an official WoTC newsletter on the last page containing "Rantings and other gibberish by Lisa Stevens (Editor-in-chief)" - along with a funny cartoon of her at her desk. How times have changed!
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Some things I'd like to see addressed in a Mythic Adventures book (and why I think so many people are asking for one, despite having never played at this level)
1) High-level combat is slower. That needs to be addressed.
a) resources to improve your mental math skills (c'mon, it's 5+5+3)
b) ways to speed calculation (average damage, roll half the dice and x2, have crits do max damage, etc.)
c) advice for how to deal with 5-15 active spell effects at a time
d) advice for organizing as a player (ex: calculate attacks when charging, power attacking, and normally NOW, not during fight)
e) get out the egg timer
+4,247 to this.
One trick I recently began (don't remember where I picked it up from):
Roll Initiative Last!
That's right. When you're finished with the combat scene and everyone is tallying treasure and figuring out how to heal/recover, one player (or the GM) should be taking initiative and noting it on the cards/list/etc.
Set everything in order, so the very next encounter goes something like this:
GM: OK, you guys turn left, and go through the door. <Draws room outline, couple of door> What's your marching order again?
Players: blah, blah, blah (GM takes this time to roll Init for his critters, make sure everything lines up
GM: <Finishes drawing room details, sets minis out> OK, Roguey McRougerson, you're first, and you see...
No break of immersion, no jar to the brain, just a smooth transition from general table-talk to in-combat tactical talk.
Do this every time, and you will LOVE yourself for it, each and every combat scene!
Thanks again to whomever I stole this from!
(It bears noting: we use initiative cards, just 3x5" note cards with Character Name and Initiative modifier listed on it. If need be, one player CAN in fact roll Init for the entire party.)
Since it has been pointed out that high Epic level play is significantly more strenuous then at lower levels, does it make sense to continue advancing along this path?
Kinda but also not. When you introduce a radically new advancement path you start breaking connections between Monsters and Players, which can get you in trouble down the road if you try to introduce monster races into the equation. It's easy to forget the GMs needs in Epic play and focus on making the Player side simpler.
Essentially this is what the old Epic rules did. When you hit 20th level you moved into "Epic" progression. +1 Epic Attack bonus every odd level, +1 Epic Save bonus every even level, Epic feats based on standard level rates (levels divisible by 3) and based on the "class" you are taking Epic. This created a calculation nightmare when making NPCs with class levels, especially Multi-classed or monster raced NPCs.
Lets take an old headache example of the Fire Giant. In 3e this was a 15 Hit Die Giant with a +4 Level Adjustment. For the purposes of ECL, XP, and related effects it was considered a 19th level character. Add 1 level of Fighter and it is now a 20th level characters. 2 levels of Fighter and it now qualifies for Epic. BAB stops and Epic Attack bonus starts.... I'm going to stop before my hurt my head with how bad this can get.
It gets even screwier when you take Monster based HD into consideration. Type based HD continue to provide standard progresson to BAB and Saves. Take a Balor which begins at 20 outsider HD. If I gave it class levels (say Anti-paladin) it gains Epic Attack and Saves immediately. If instead I give more Outsider hit dice it keeps a Full BAB and All Good Saves.
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Please keep in mind how an "alternate" advancement system may interact with Classed and Unclassed monsters.
As it stands in Pathfinder with the broad brushed post 20 play suggestions, I can drop 20 levels of Anti-Paladin on a Balor total up the Skill Points, add the BAB/Saves totals to the stat block, pick either nasty feats or just buffer, and call it a day with a (which I would consider Key) and call it a CR 40 challenge.
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If you want to simplify the math at Epic levels it would be better IMO to work on a direct solution to those issues.
1) Dealing with hundreds of little buffs
2) Several different Attack options per PC and Monster
3) Large numbers of available spells and Spell-like abilities with different effects to adjudicate
4) Imbalances in good vs bad Saving Throws
One of the best suggestions which I kinda remember reading in the EHL itself is just Average all the damage rolls. Stop chucking 25 or 40 d6 for super-sized fireballs or a Sneak Attacks and just have the Average written and ready to go.
I would rather see the design time spent elsewhere to shore up some of the existing issues, tighten up existing products focus, or create new lines such as:
Pathfinder Adventure Sites (Boxed Sets)
Designed for players in the 10-20 range with a focus on one iconic location as opposed to how the AP line is campaign based. Dungeons of Golarion, while a nice starting stage, just doesn't have the same appeal as a truly fleshed out product.
I would have gone another route with that product (Dungeons of Golarion) and started the line off with the following items in a starter 64 page product, aptly titled Pathfinder Adventure Sites.
- A brief overview of 4 future boxed set locations.
- An epic monster template system.
- An epic player template system.
- Base epic feats requiring specific saves/level range abilities/spells per day/etc.
- Epic appropriate traps/poisons/etc.
- Example high CR monsters with entries for both normal and epic template system versions.
- Suggestions for running epic style encounters using the tools above.
Each boxed set would have additional options to expand the various concepts located in the intro book. The boxed sets would be created to be run using "normal" level 10-20 players but would be easily adapted to the epic style options in the original intro book. This would help to avoid the product line from falling into the niche market that a single full hardcover book would.
Actually, Epic level is actually a place where prestige classes might work very well.
Imagine Pre-regs like "must be able to cast Wish", or "Must be able to make a DC 40 Acrobatics check, before rolling the dice"
That could allow for a whole pile of cool abilities.
And we know the game changes as time goes by (some say it's 6th, some 8th, some 12th, some 15th, some 20th, whatever). The people who want the cap at those lower levels have a system by which to do that. And it's free! E6. Of course, up to 20th, you can use the PF Core Book, too. But those of us who want to see how far we can go, and 20 levels just ain't enough, have only a few options (PF suggestions in Core, the old ELH, Immortals stuff, and this Primal Order thing, which I've just downloaded).
Does the desire to see how far you can go require that your character continue to progress along their current path? Would it still be satisfying if you were able to progress on an alternate path - only attainable after hiting 20th level - that is effectively a complete evolution from what you were before?
Since it has been pointed out that high Epic level play is significantly more strenuous then at lower levels, does it make sense to continue advancing along this path?
Imagine that we define an Epic Level system that basically reboots characters at Epic Level 1. You have roughly the same number of abilities as a normal Level 1 character, but all of them are Epic in nature. One of those abilities could be 'Will mortals to Die' that basically handwaves all of your previously earned abilities for ease/speed of play. Needless to say you shouldn't be fighting mortals anymore so it's ok if you have this power.
While that seems a gross oversimplification, I have thought about something along those same lines.
Take a look at your character at 20th level, find the key combat mechanics, and try to streamline them. So for example, at really high levels, a paladin's Lay on Hands carries a bunch of Mercy options with it. Pick a one of those Mercies (the one you use most often, say), blow it out of proportion, and take it with you to Mythic-ville, leaving the others behind, but getting really good at that one area.
You got a Cavalier of the Sword? Ridiculous number of Mounted Combat options at 20th level? How about a Mounted Combat Mastery that does away with all of the previous options for one close-knit set of rules?
Play a caster who uses energy spells a lot? Energy Dweomer!
Also, no one is saying that epic MUST EQUAL god-slaying, so telling us that we shouldn't be fighting mortals anymore once we cross the threshold is just...unsupported.
Why can't a mortal tyrant looking to unleash an ancient demilich on the world be a challenge for a 27th level party? Are hordes of ogres with a matriarchy of witches, led by a cambion with 19 class levels and an honor guard of mutated hill giant slaves too small a challenge for us, once we hit level 21 (or Epic 1st, whatever you call it).
No, epic doesn't have to equal ascended. None of the high-level adventures I've played in have targeted ascension.
If they were to add an ELH I would like to see it released in conjunction with a parallel / separate setting from Golarion. This setting would help explain why the PCs are able to reach greater heights of power.
I don't think Godslaying is the way to go here since there is too much opportunity to mess with the base setting. I think a great move would be to go planar - make a Pathfinder spin on PlaneScape and allow the PCs to acquire all sorts of planar based powers - aspects of Fire, Air etc..
Just plonking another 20 levels onto Monk is boring and uninspired. Instead create planar appropriate evolutions of the base classes - you were a Druid in Golarion? Now you've become a Lifewielder, using raw fae energies to rejuvenate worlds and fight the endless armies of the Negative plane. Or something like that.
My .02.
+EleventyBazillion
Especially on the separate setting, even if related.
In my experience, skewed though it is, I've very seldom people do higher-end gaming in any way that wasn't near-godmoding in the worst of ways. I'd like to think there were ways to do world-shaking action without it feeling like MinMax Moronity: MegaDamage Edition.
If they were to add an ELH I would like to see it released in conjunction with a parallel / separate setting from Golarion. This setting would help explain why the PCs are able to reach greater heights of power.
I don't think Godslaying is the way to go here since there is too much opportunity to mess with the base setting. I think a great move would be to go planar - make a Pathfinder spin on PlaneScape and allow the PCs to acquire all sorts of planar based powers - aspects of Fire, Air etc..
Just plonking another 20 levels onto Monk is boring and uninspired. Instead create planar appropriate evolutions of the base classes - you were a Druid in Golarion? Now you've become a Lifewielder, using raw fae energies to rejuvenate worlds and fight the endless armies of the Negative plane. Or something like that.
My .02.
+EleventyBazillion
Especially on the separate setting, even if related.
In my experience, skewed though it is, I've very seldom people do higher-end gaming in any way that wasn't near-godmoding in the worst of ways. I'd like to think there were ways to do world-shaking action without it feeling like MinMax Moronity: MegaDamage Edition.
Well, two points here.
1. Pathfinder is not Golarion. There are folks out there who use the Pathfinder rules but don't run in Golarion. So for them the setting is irrelevant.
2. You can certainly an epic campaign that has nothing to do with becoming/slaying the gods. I can't say whether it's more or less work. What I can say is that plot is essential. When you've got characters that can teleport anywhere in the multiverse on a whim and throw miracle like it's cure light wounds, there's got to be a reason for them to be a specific place, and it better be a pretty darn good one.
Also, in regards to a complete changeover after 20th level - while I can understand people wanting to play that way, I can say that after using the ELH style of progressions extensively, I like the toned down progression after 20th level, and I like they way they created epic prestige classes that do give out crazy abilities, yet left the progression of the core classes relatively simple.
Given that my preference is for a smooth transition into 21+ play, there's a few things that I think are necessary; these are specific examples, but they're symptoms of places where there's an unstated assumption the game doesn't pass level 20.
example 1. Dispel magic has a cap of +20 on the die roll. If you're throwing a spell against an effect with an effective level of 30 or higher, don't bother casting this one.
example 2. Spells such as freedom of movement are absolutes; I'd like to see any spell that 'always' does something adjusted, for example "freedom of movement grants a bonus to your CMD equal to the Caster Level, minimum +40." I chose +40 because that's what you get to Stealth from invisibility.
Those are just examples, but they're of things that become either "I win" at high level or become pointless. Also, spell save DCs, since they don't track with level, are problematic.
The thing about combats is they can be all over the place depending on the abilities of a creature and the capabilities of the party. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; it's just how it works. The skill in running things at this level is trying to identify what's just going to turn into a stultifying exercise in die rolling - and it's not always obvious ahead of time.
The other thing is a metagame item - even more than at lower levels, the exact PCs present can be crucial. What would be a cake walk with one player present might be horrifyingly challenging if they're not. I find that I usually have combats designed to be modular, so I can add or remove elements on the fly depending on who's showed up at the game. I have something like 8 players, but anywhere from 4-8 show up on any given day - and the worst of the lot for attendance is the cleric. Very problematic.
Indeed, Gbonehead, Pathfinder is NOT Golarion. I have yet to play an Adventure set in Golarion, the two games where PF is the rules system are both homebrew settings.
I'm reading the two Immortals Handbooks right now, which I've recently downloaded, and while Epic Bestiary seems to have a lot of worthwhile stuff in there for any kind of "Epic" you want (see my previous posts for descriptions of my ideas: end-gamer, earth-shaker, and god-slayer), the Ascension book seems to NOT be my cup of tea. Just because one of my characters is high-level doesn't make that character immortal. In fact, I've only ever played ONE immortal, and I used HERO system for that. (Though in hindsight, D20 would've required a LOT less work!)
I've also recently downloaded the BECMI (Mentzer) boxes. This seems more my speed, and I now understand why JJ has postulated that obscure 36 level rule. But those are for an older system, as is ELH, and the work of translating older editions into PF is why we have Paizo! I am NOT a game designer, and though I have no qualms about making the game my own, I am confident that I couldn't do as good a job as the folks at Paizo.
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Indeed, Gbonehead, Pathfinder is NOT Golarion. I have yet to play an Adventure set in Golarion, the two games where PF is the rules system are both homebrew settings.
I'm reading the two Immortals Handbooks right now, which I've recently downloaded, and while Epic Bestiary seems to have a lot of worthwhile stuff in there for any kind of "Epic" you want (see my previous posts for descriptions of my ideas: end-gamer, earth-shaker, and god-slayer), the Ascension book seems to NOT be my cup of tea. Just because one of my characters is high-level doesn't make that character immortal. In fact, I've only ever played ONE immortal, and I used HERO system for that. (Though in hindsight, D20 would've required a LOT less work!)
I've also recently downloaded the BECMI (Mentzer) boxes. This seems more my speed, and I now understand why JJ has postulated that obscure 36 level rule. But those are for an older system, as is ELH, and the work of translating older editions into PF is why we have Paizo! I am NOT a game designer, and though I have no qualms about making the game my own, I am confident that I couldn't do as good a job as the folks at Paizo.
I'd like to correct a couple of things here.
1. In the Ascension book, it's not enough to merely level up past 20 to gain those powers. You have to collect Quintessence, which can only be done in three ways: being worshiped by mortals, killing immortals, or being granted it by immortals.
2. You shouldn't talk about downloading the BECMI books here, as that is piracy. You may not agree with WotC's decision to take down all the PDFs, but it was theirs to make. A nice legal alternative is Dark Dungeons, a retro-clone of the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia. It's a very close match rule-wise.
I'd like to correct a couple of things here.
1. In the Ascension book, it's not enough to merely level up past 20 to gain those powers. You have to collect Quintessence, which can only be done in three ways: being worshiped by mortals, killing immortals, or being granted it by immortals.
2. You shouldn't talk about downloading the BECMI books here, as that is piracy. You may not agree with WotC's decision to take down all the PDFs, but it was theirs to make. A nice legal alternative is Dark Dungeons, a retro-clone of the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia. It's a very close match rule-wise.
Kthulhu, I'll respond to #2 first. What I meant was, I found a place where someone had used the BECMI boxes as part of their OD&D campaign, and had a site containing an OUTLINE of those systems. I don't have the actual copies of the books themselves. I will look into Dark Dungeons (does it go all the way through the levels that BECMI suggests: 1-3 Basic, 4-14 Expert, 15-25 Companion, 26-36 Master?)
And in regard to point number 1: regardless of how they get it, quintessence is my hang up with the Immortals system. I want to play (and run) high-level adventures with more than just the 20 levels of PF Core, but WITHOUT needing the characters to be gods.
That's what I'm hoping to get from Paizo. (Although, as previously stated, if they wanted to do something for everyone's idea of "epic", including ascended campaigns, I'd support that too.)
All this edition blending to come up with something usable is way more work than cracking open the one book that many of us want.
Yep, Dark Dungeons is indeed what BECMI was all about. Too bad it's not a PATHFINDER PRODUCT! But very handy, if I ever want that retro feeling.
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I will look into Dark Dungeons (does it go all the way through the levels that BECMI suggests: 1-3 Basic, 4-14 Expert, 15-25 Companion, 26-36 Master?)
It covers 1-36, and with rules for playing immortals.
And in regard to point number 1: regardless of how they get it, quintessence is my hang up with the Immortals system. I want to play (and run) high-level adventures with more than just the 20 levels of PF Core, but WITHOUT needing the characters to be gods.
Actually the Immortal's Handbook doesn't preclude another post-20th system. If you're 99th level, but have no quintessence, then you're still a mortal (a powerful one, but still mortal).
Likewise, you could be a low-leveled commoner, but if you manage to gain large amounts of quintessence (most likely by being granted it), then you could become a full-on god, despite your low character level.
I was rewatching Gurren Lagann again and was struck by the parallel between Pathfinder (D&D) and how the show continues to up the stakes at absurd rates with even bigger and more giant robots.*FISTBUMP*
Best.Anime.Ever.
"Ore wo dare da to omotte yagaru !!!"
(Who the h*ll do you think I am ?!?)
I was rewatching Gurren Lagann again and was struck by the parallel between Pathfinder (D&D) and how the show continues to up the stakes at absurd rates with even bigger and more giant robots.*FISTBUMP*Best.Anime.Ever.
"Ore wo dare da to omotte yagaru !!!"
(All Your Base Are Belong To Us !!!)
Fixed that for you.
A nice legal alternative is Dark Dungeons, a retro-clone of the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia. It's a very close match rule-wise.
Funny that this comes up. The old D&D Rules Cyclopedia is the format I hoped PFRPG eventually would get - a leaner core system with monsters included in the book, not the current Core+Bestiary format or the three book Ad&d format.
oh well, opportunities lost.
A nice legal alternative is Dark Dungeons, a retro-clone of the BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia. It's a very close match rule-wise.
Dark Dungeons, eh?
I say yay for ELH. Would actually like to see capstones.. be useful you know?
I say yay for ELH. Would actually like to see capstones.. be useful you know?
I would say that the existing capstones ARE useful, they just shouldn't be capstones. We can get those at CHARACTER level 36 (not class level), and should be able to customize them to fit our character, regardless of the class(es) they've selected throughout their careers.
what?
He's saying he'd like to see powers that are tied to character level instead of class level.
So your Fighter 6/Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 10/Eldritch Knight 10 would get a power at level 36 because it's a 36th-level character.
Not sure how that's different than feats with a level prerequisite, unless they're crazy powerful, in which case I'm against it.
This is also one of the reasons I want to see Mythic levels, in now I can use my capstone ability for the first 20 levels more extensively. I do agree with Aevux in the aspect that if I receive that ultra cool ability, I want to be able to use it for more than one level worth.
However Paizo determines to give Mythic abilities, the only request I have is when we receive that final, all powerful ability, please do so at least a few levels before the Mythic level cap.
My group is almost 20 as well. I could use an epic level handbook. These are the first lvl 20 characters they have had in years. They want to keep running them.
But I have to say I would prefer an epic level handbook that doesn't continue to progress all the various level based items. Rather I would like a slower and more option oriented progression.
When the first 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Book came out, they had a very intriguing epic level progression system. I was really hoping they would use that type of system where you could pick variable bonuses as you rise. But I imagine that might make monster creation problematic.
So as long as it is better than 3E's Epic Level Handbook I'll be happy. The 3E book had some interesting ideas, but was overall a poorly done book. A pain to use, especially that magic system.
If they were to add an ELH I would like to see it released in conjunction with a parallel / separate setting from Golarion. This setting would help explain why the PCs are able to reach greater heights of power.
I don't think Godslaying is the way to go here since there is too much opportunity to mess with the base setting. I think a great move would be to go planar - make a Pathfinder spin on PlaneScape and allow the PCs to acquire all sorts of planar based powers - aspects of Fire, Air etc..
Just plonking another 20 levels onto Monk is boring and uninspired. Instead create planar appropriate evolutions of the base classes - you were a Druid in Golarion? Now you've become a Lifewielder, using raw fae energies to rejuvenate worlds and fight the endless armies of the Negative plane. Or something like that.
My .02.
+EleventyBazillion
Especially on the separate setting, even if related.
In my experience, skewed though it is, I've very seldom people do higher-end gaming in any way that wasn't near-godmoding in the worst of ways. I'd like to think there were ways to do world-shaking action without it feeling like MinMax Moronity: MegaDamage Edition.
Well, two points here.
1. Pathfinder is not Golarion. There are folks out there who use the Pathfinder rules but don't run in Golarion. So for them the setting is irrelevant.
2. You can certainly an epic campaign that has nothing to do with becoming/slaying the gods. I can't say whether it's more or less work. What I can say is that plot is essential. When you've got characters that can teleport anywhere in the multiverse on a whim and throw miracle like it's cure light wounds, there's got to be a reason for them to be a specific place, and it better be a pretty darn good one.
Also, in regards to a complete changeover after 20th level - while I can understand people wanting to play that way, I can say that after using the ELH style of progressions...
I see that there is a bit of conflation regarding who said what, but the answer is sufficiently unspecific that the assumption of ignorance of distinction between system and setting is ultimately inoffensive.
That being said, MY part in this is that, while not necessarily setting-specific, many examples DO tie into the existing world, but only as demonstrations rather than outright arbitration. As such, instead of using Golarion as the actual de facto 'meta example', things could be demonstrated by usage in other locations. After all, you don't have complete setting agnosticism in the book - the Iconics, after all, ARE in the world setting. However, it means that an Epic Level book not only has a flavor all its own, it can hint at what the Iconics have been up to, or introduce new ones who are old hands in the new Epic Level Play area, encountering new arrivals we've come to know and love who are simultaneously realizing they aren't in Absalom anymore.
My immediate theory/hope is at least in part a 'pocket' dimension where people who failed the Star Stone test get the power they desire...but also become contained therein. Not bleak and grim and Gothic and Ravenloft and such - simply a different playground than whence they originated.
Heck, it would be the perfect excuse to implement a Birthright-alike - Post-20th characters become the new rulers of spontaneously generated lands, even if not aware of it, and rather than being trapped in their respective landmassess they can wage war to gain more power, from others in the area, with the distinction being that the further they are from their 'home' the weaker they become, and ways to distribute their powers to their armies/servitors...
what?
My remark was in regard to James Jacobs' postulation that a level cap might be placed at 36 in the eventual 'high-level' rules.
Right now, capstone abilities come at 20th CLASS LEVEL. Well, if there is a strict level cap placed at 36 when we get 'mythic', 'epic', or 'high-level' rules, I would like to see capstones as more of a thematic, archetypal power, not linked to specific classes as they currently stand.
Hope that clears things up.
Hobbun's suggestion is also great. When we get a capstone, let us use it for a few levels. I didn't really think about that, but very valid.
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I was rewatching Gurren Lagann again and was struck by the parallel between Pathfinder (D&D) and how the show continues to up the stakes at absurd rates with even bigger and more giant robots.*FISTBUMP*Best.Anime.Ever.
"Ore wo dare da to omotte yagaru !!!"
(Who the h*ll do you think I am ?!?)
Lots of great one liners and short motivational speeches, which is another parallel.
The reputation of [Party Name] echoes far and wide... When they talk about its bad ass leader, the [Gender Noun] of indomitable spirit and [Gender Adjective], they're talking about me!
And the ever classic,
Kick logic out and do the impossible! That's how team Gurren rolls!
Don't underestimate us! We don't care about time or space or multi-dimensional whatevers, we don't give a damn about that! Force your way down a path you choose to take and do it all yourself! That's the way team Dai-Gurren rolls!
If this doesn't sound like your game pre-epic... you're not going to play epic :P
Episodes are on Hulu for those interested, it is rated TV14, very solidly T for Teen on all points.
So, to keep this thing alive, and because I'm curious what people think, should PF 'Mythic' rules include taking class levels above 20th, even if they place a 36 level cap on characters?
Personally, I think that keeping class levels limited to 20 would allow players to finally justify multiclassing in PF.
I know we can do so now, but 20 level class limits would force some creative multiclassing if you wanted to go all the way to 36th, but still wanted those sweet class capstones. Heck, you could get a capstone from a base class at 20th, a PrC at 30th (when you hit 10th), and still have 6 levels of play in which to ACTUALLY USE THEM!
Granted, I don't play a lot of full-spellcasters, so not getting access to 10th+ level spells from straight class levels is no biggie for me.
With a 36 level cap you can hit the top of a 20 level class, a 10 level prestige class, and a 5 level PrC. Or we could make some mythic prestige class that are 6 levels.
I'm tempted to just let my group continue advancing as usual after 20 and see how it goes. Even if you stop gaining new spell slots, higher caster level is still important. I also don't think we really need 10th level spells. Just more 9th level ones.
I also don't think we really need 10th level spells. Just more 9th level ones.
Higher level spell slots, though, open up all kinds of meta-magic goodness. Hitting someone with a quickened disintegrate is something epic casters SHOULD be able to pull off.
I actually liked the 3.0 Epic spell casting rules, in which you wanted to take Improved spell capacity 10th level spells as a feat, so that you could withstand the awesome amounts of power swirling about you.
I also don't think we really need 10th level spells. Just more 9th level ones.Higher level spell slots, though, open up all kinds of meta-magic goodness. Hitting someone with a quickened disintegrate is something epic casters SHOULD be able to pull off.
I actually liked the 3.0 Epic spell casting rules, in which you wanted to take Improved spell capacity 10th level spells as a feat, so that you could withstand the awesome amounts of power swirling about you.
That's true, I forgot about meta-magic. I use alternate rules for meta-magic in my game from book of experimental might. Quicken spell can be applied 1x per day, Empower spell 3x per day, etc. For more uses take the feat multiple times. So for my game more feats is all it takes to have an array of really powerful casters.
So, to keep this thing alive, and because I'm curious what people think, should PF 'Mythic' rules include taking class levels above 20th, even if they place a 36 level cap on characters?
I'd say no, for a number of reasons.
- A 20 class level cap is probably easier to design and balance.
- Material for levels 1-20 remain attractive.
- The epic book is more likely to be useful in non-epic games, hence increasing sales.
- "Forcing" multiclassing opens up endless class combinations, which I believe is fun.
- Its likely to give us a softer powercurve than epic class features. I think level 20+ characters should have more options, not necesseraly more power.
I hope a high level handbook comes out in early 2012 and does not have a cap level and especially hope it's not 36
I want to kill overgods
I myself kind of like the idea of the 36 level cap, but I wonder if we could just adopt the WHOLE BECMI system, and top those 36 levels as adventurers with 36 more levels of Immortals, for those who want it.
Or, maybe levels 37-72 could be nigh-immortal "Champion" levels. (Something like gbonehead's epic troupe).
In any event, what JJ wants, JJ probably gets, and if he postulates a 36th level cap, that's likely what we're looking at.
Although, as someone up-thread pointed out, there are suggestions in the core rulebook for play post-20th. Maybe when we get mythic, there will be a similar blurb on post-36th. So that edduardco can kill the overgods...
That post on how Epic Levels work was not accurate.
You only get Epic Progression if you had 20 levels of a character class, or 10 levels of a 10 level PrC. You HAD to have 20 levels,somehow.
I.e. You can't enter fighter/21 without being a f/20. Likewise, you can't become a Mystic Theurge/11 without being a Mystic Theurge/10.
A Fire Giant Fighter/2 would be eligible to take Epic Feats...and that's it. His fighter levels are 1-20...he can't use FIghter bonus feats to take Epic Feats. He would potentially have awesome WBL, and might be toting around a +6 Sword. But that's pretty much it. Going up against a f/21, he'll likely get his clock cleaned due to lower BAB and lack of feats to compete with, but that's a question for another time.
Note that +5 CR for a Fire Giant is pretty ad hoc, and mostly because of ability score benefits and lots of nat armor. Slap a PC's wealth on a giant, and they start looking pretty impressive. But a Fire Giant f/2 only has a BAB of +12. That's worse then a cleric/21. IF he doesn't have uber stats, he's nothing.
==Aelryinth
That post on how Epic Levels work was not accurate.
You only get Epic Progression if you had 20 levels of a character class, or 10 levels of a 10 level PrC. You HAD to have 20 levels,somehow.
I.e. You can't enter fighter/21 without being a f/20. Likewise, you can't become a Mystic Theurge/11 without being a Mystic Theurge/10.
A Fire Giant Fighter/2 would be eligible to take Epic Feats...and that's it.
Not sure why you're concluding that, though rules for advancing epic monsters are pretty scarce. But a fire giant has 15 HD and is CR 10, so a fire giant fighter 2 would be at best CR 12 depending how you calculate it.
The way I decided to do it was based on CR. Once a monster's CR hits 20, it can take epic feats as long as it qualifies. So a fire giant would not hit CR20 until it was a fighter 10, assuming 1-for-1 CR advancement. The same fire giant would advance by 1/2 CR per level for wizard levels until wizard 15 (at which point it would be CR 17), and would hit CR 20 at wizard level 18.
His fighter levels are 1-20...he can't use FIghter bonus feats to take Epic Feats. He would potentially have awesome WBL, and might be toting around a +6 Sword. But that's pretty much it. Going up against a f/21, he'll likely get his clock cleaned due to lower BAB and lack of feats to compete with, but that's a question for another time.
Note that +5 CR for a Fire Giant is pretty ad hoc, and mostly because of ability score benefits and lots of nat armor. Slap a PC's wealth on a giant, and they start looking pretty impressive. But a Fire Giant f/2 only has a BAB of +12. That's worse then a cleric/21. IF he doesn't have uber stats, he's nothing.
So to be fair, that figher 21 (CR 20, 21HD, BAB +21) should be going up agains a fire giant fighter 10 (CR 20, 25HD, BAB +21). Yes, the fighter will have more feats, but the fire giant will have a size advantage which is rather important to things like, oh, weapon damage and Strength.
And sending a fighter 21 (CR 20, 21HD, BAB +21) up agains a fire giant wizard 18 (CR 20, 33HD, BAB +20) would probably not work out well for the fighter.