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Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).This this this. I'll add that the random generation sections should really update the system of random generation to something less headache-inducing.
I have to assume that I'm the only GM in all the world who has tried to populate a home-brew shop or town with items by the book — if there were anyone else who'd tried, I would have expected to hear a greater outcry. Crafting and treasure gen are the two worst legacy systems, IMO, and I would really love to see the Paizo designers unleashed.
In fact, new thread.
Like it says in the OP — gear is cool and sells, and two gear-centric subsystems in Pathfinder are terrible (IMO) legacy systems in need of overhaul.
Sounds like it would be an awesome book.
Crafting is the lesser offender of the two, but there are definitely certain kinds of campaigns that require a deeper mechanic for crafting. I had a dedicated crafter in my party, so while the RAW works fine for a number of campaigns, I needed something better.
I also see a lot of issues with crafting and Kingdom rules. These things I think could be fixed with an optional rule, kind of like the new Spellbooks in UM. That kind of mechanic for crafting would be great. If I might digress into house rules, I've found that merely putting a name of the expensive components necessary for crafting items is an effective means of regulating them (and creates adventure seeds, AND it feels old-school).
But crafting isn't so bad by comparison. Random item generation needs help.
I am a weird, crunchy GM when it comes to things like this. If I see rules for generating items for a town, I am going to try and use them from scratch. Few enough do, I realize, but I am one of the few.
I was very excited to see the additions to the item generation rules in Pathfinder RPG when the CRB first came out. To this day, the things PF added are the best parts of the system. The rest of it needs serious help.
As written, even just the core treasure rules (no extra books) have a system that requires a lot of frustrating dead ends. You often have to roll on five tables only to find your item is invalid somehow and start over again.
I'd really like to see the designers start from their own top-level rules (availability and city statblocks were awesome additions!) and throw out the legacy system. Give us a system that's exciting and easy to use, and that will help to change the GM-unfriendly image that Pathfinder has.
+1
I'll also add that this is one of those product ideas that hits the "sweet spot" between player cravings and GM needs.
I am not as picky about the random gen as you, but, in general, I like this idea. Though perhaps this would be a good area for 3pps.
I am not as picky about the random gen as you, but, in general, I like this idea. Though perhaps this would be a good area for 3pps.
Like I said: I am one of the few, I think.
Still, it should be usable, even if not everyone is going to use it.
I'll also add that this is one of those product ideas that hits the "sweet spot" between player cravings and GM needs.
+1
Honestly sometimes my group will use the 3.5 DMG tables for rolling random items.
I have to assume that I'm the only GM in all the world who has tried to populate a home-brew shop or town with items by the book — if there were anyone else who'd tried, I would have expected to hear a greater outcry. Crafting and treasure gen are the two worst legacy systems, IMO, and I would really love to see the Paizo designers unleashed.In fact, new thread.
Nope,
I'm in the middle of populating some stuff for an upcoming game, and it's not painful, it's excruciating. Especially potions, since potions have rules on what spells can make them. :(I'm just trying for 3 each of thorp, hamlet, village, etc. I'm also working on a program to automate it. I had one for MIC, but it got trashed when a computer died. However, the rules in PF core are so spread out and recursive that it's hard to work up a program to handle it in my spare time. MIC at the very least had a very very very easy base rule set for random items, and it was easy to add items to the random lists.
EDIT : Cross-posted at EL's request.
I'm actually seriously reconsidering just using the MIC rules for random stuff, and then putting all the PF core stuff into 'Magic Item Level' bands so I can use the logic from it and make my random item program about 3000% easier to code.
Later this week, I'm gonna come back here and try to populate a small town's items by the book. Ya'll can follow along and watch me go slowly mad.
I'm actually seriously reconsidering just using the MIC rules for random stuff, and then putting all the PF core stuff into 'Magic Item Level' bands so I can use the logic from it and make my random item program about 3000% easier to code.
MIC?
I'm actually seriously reconsidering just using the MIC rules for random stuff, and then putting all the PF core stuff into 'Magic Item Level' bands so I can use the logic from it and make my random item program about 3000% easier to code.MIC?
Magic Item Compendium, from 3.5.
Back to EL's request for additional book ideas.
1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC).This this this. I'll add that the random generation sections should really update the system of random generation to something less headache-inducing.
I have to assume that I'm the only GM in all the world who has tried to populate a home-brew shop or town with items by the book — if there were anyone else who'd tried, I would have expected to hear a greater outcry. Crafting and treasure gen are the two worst legacy systems, IMO, and I would really love to see the Paizo designers unleashed.
In fact, new thread.
I gave this idea love in the other thread I'm giving it love here as well.
+ infinity -- This book would be an absolute must buy for me, and I can all but guarantee some of my players would buy it as well.
I could really get behind this! The economy in 3.5/Pathfinder has always been one of those things that people don't like but can't easily change without reducing the whole thing to GM fiat. An Ultimate Gear book would be a great place to try and address that for those who care.
The single thing I've seen more than anything else on this forum is "How do I do a low magic items game/make magic items something more than a bonus/ditch the big 6 item types/make non-gear dependant characters." All those problems and the economy seem like they could be answered by a single variant, and I'd be very interested to see one with official
support and playtesting.
I agree that crafting and treasure generation are a huge pain. Even if they weren't fixed, I'd still like the tables updated to include all the new material otherwise it just won't get used as much, which is a shame.
+1
More alchemical items!
More magic items, maybe organized by genre/style?
Maybe the paizo take on magic architecture/stronghold building (which is more likely to be used by GMs, would be my guess)
I wouldn't want it to be an Ultimate Gear book, as there is far more to treasure than simple gear. I'd like rules on using body parts of enemies for crafting purposes, or the value of them as decorative items, etc, much like the rules for dragonhide armor. I'd like the value of structures, like how much that haunted mansion the party cleared out might go for, or how much it would take to restore a ruined tower.
Also, advice and/or rules on alternative item rules, like a non-magical enhancement bonus for weapons and armor, or minor additions to make magical loot more unique.
Or perhaps rules on balancing how to get away without stat boosters or a few other of the Big 6.
Have to agree the MIC item level indicator was a quick and dirty way of populating treasure hoards for a particular party level!
An MIC type of book would be infinitely more useful in an ongoing campaign!
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do this. +Whatever-number-works!
I suggested rolling for random treasure as a fun thing to do the other day in our campaign, and we couldn't even find anything for it really, or if we did it seemed really unclear.
I would buy this, and I know others who do not post on these boards who would as well.
Including various kinds of grafts would be interesting in this kind of book.
Dorje affirms this product has utility.
In the random Tables section it would be even nicer to go over random market items. I have always had rather inventive players who like interacting with their environment... if I had an easy way to quickly generate mundane trade items in bazaar stall I'd be more inclined to put full fights in such settings. I would enjoy seeing how they put things as simple as fishing rod and a spittoon to use for tactical advantage.
Also, there is nothing like filling a treasure horde with random domestics goods and other oddities.
This is exactly the kind of book I'd love to see.
"1/3rd Mundane Equipment
1/3rd Magical items
1/3rd Rules crunch such as rewriting the crafting rules, more in depth magic item creation rules (for balancing), and random generation tables that take ALL the books thus far into account (ala MIC)."
This is the perfect breakdown for a book like this. Part Armory, part MIC, part Crunch. An APG for gear.
Need moar mundane equipment.
Need moar and better poisons.
Need moar alchemical items.
Need moar metals and other special materials.
Need better rules for crafting in general.
Add in a strongold building set of rules, if possible.
Don't need a whole lot more gear (APG and Adventurer's Armory covers a lot of ground; a little more wouldn't hurt)---but heck yes to more tables and generators and ..... YES YES YES to stronghold building stuff and new and improved crafting options/rules.
And an artificer/inventor/tinker base class!
You know, that last one becomes a lot more tempting if they do rework the aforementioned subsystems.
+1, but 1/2 magic items
MORE MAGIC ITEMS!!!
more special materials
more achemical items
more equipment
more treasure
+1
Maybe the paizo take on magic architecture/stronghold building (which is more likely to be used by GMs, would be my guess)
As there is a thread right now about magical/ fantasy styled train systems that would be awesome.
IMHO a well made stronghold building chapter would be useful for players too.
When I was a player, planning and improving my stronghold was part of the fun. for my players has been the same later.
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I was somewhat disapointed by the "Arms and Equipment" guide in 3.x, but the MIC is the most used book in my library.
A Pathfinder Magic Item Compendium would rock.
I also loved the stronghold builder guide, as odd as that sounds, and used it once in a game where the party was starting to build a stronghold in the wilderness. Anything about building strongholds would be on my wishlist.
I think the mundane equipment list is at its limit, but a consolidated list would be nice. I barely see mundane equipment used all that often. In fact, mostly of it is for flavor in wilderness games. No thank you for more stuff that looks cool but won't be bought.
I would love more alchemical items. Those are often enough for more options.
More magic weapons and armor. I can't ever have enough options for these.
A big yes to other magical items. The more the better. However, I want more tool items and more items for slots that just don't seem to have any love. The hand slot, for example, needs more love. As does the chest and head slot.
More rings, capes, amulets, boots, belts, or headbands would only be market fodder. Those slots have items that give the best and much needed boosts and abilities. Thus it is hard to create items for those slots that people will seriously consider keeping.
More rings, capes, amulets, boots, belts, or headbands would only be market fodder. Those slots have items that give the best and much needed boosts and abilities. Thus it is hard to create items for those slots that people will seriously consider keeping.
Unless you also drop some fun goodies for merging existing items. You can already build multi-sloted items but the flavor for using a Helm of Fearsome Mien as part of the component cost to add its abilities to a Grappler's Mask is quite there. You can already try to sell it at 1/2 value to get equivalent GP in materials... but that doesn't seem nearly as cool as doing magical rituals to either strip power from one and transfer... or to physical merge them.
+1, but 1/2 magic items
1/3 is a good compromise. At some point you have to many magic items to the point that most of them won't get used.
This is an awesome idea. But I do think they should spend part of the mundane gear section gathering up gear from various books like the APG, Ultimate Combat, Adventurer's Armory, etc.
I'd rather have reprinted material that neatly gathers up all of the extra weapons and armor, than have a bunch of new stuff AND still have to trawl for items. Its okay for spells, feats. But seems such a chore for items.
ALSO: I suggest adding a subsystem whereby exotic weapons get cool tricks and features that make them worth taking the feat to learn them. Make them feel exotic!
This is an awesome idea. But I do think they should spend part of the mundane gear section gathering up gear from various books like the APG, Ultimate Combat, Adventurer's Armory, etc.
I'd rather have reprinted material that neatly gathers up all of the extra weapons and armor, than have a bunch of new stuff AND still have to trawl for items. Its okay for spells, feats. But seems such a chore for items.
ALSO: I suggest adding a subsystem whereby exotic weapons get cool tricks and features that make them worth taking the feat to learn them. Make them feel exotic!
+1 to this, I totally agree with all of it.
This is an awesome idea. But I do think they should spend part of the mundane gear section gathering up gear from various books like the APG, Ultimate Combat, Adventurer's Armory, etc.
I'd rather have reprinted material that neatly gathers up all of the extra weapons and armor, than have a bunch of new stuff AND still have to trawl for items. Its okay for spells, feats. But seems such a chore for items.
I've actually been doing this for Core and APG (almost done... may add in some but not all of the stuff from the adventurer's armory. Also have my own campaign materials as well). It's a lot of work, but well worth it to see all the material together.
ALSO: I suggest adding a subsystem whereby exotic weapons get cool tricks and features that make them worth taking the feat to learn them. Make them feel exotic!
Most exotic weapons already have that, as they're usually weapons that have multiple components (can be finessable AND a trip weapon AND a disarm weapon AND has a x3 crit mod, etc.). The point of taking the feat is being able to do all the things that one weapon can do. Some exotic weapons are arguably more "exotic" than others, however. The problem is more that the line was not always drawn clearly---perhaps the heavy flail should be exotic by definition, etc.
An artificer class would be awesome, yes. It's one of the few classes I think the game could really benefit from, (without adding in something huge like psionics, that is).
So, what we all seem to want is:
- All the magic items in one place
- expanded and/or reprinted mundane gear
- Improved and all-inclusive treasure generation tables
- Rewards that aren't exactly treasure, but work the same way, such as body parts or locations
- Base building stuff
- A variant for getting by without the vanilla bonus items
- An artificer-type class
is that about right?
If I could hope for an exhaustive book that answers all of my needs then I'd add:
A proper and detailed treatment of different levels of magic in the campaign. How does it affect CR? Categorize these differences beyond just WBL, instead detail the kind of campaign altering effects that can come from different kinds of gear.
Solid rules for the flip side of gear, inherent character bonuses for those campaigns where you want very low magic.
I know in the thread that inspired this Kolokotrani asked for a resource that would help better articulate adjustments for low magic and extremely high magic game set-ups. I do not want to derail this very productive thread as their are numerous low magic ones on the forums already. I think such options probably need their own book as there are large "ripple effects" for changing something like the availability of magic items. Also there are other ways to do a low magic/low magic item game besides inherent bonuses :)
inherent character bonuses for those campaigns where you want very low magic.
I saw one house rule recently that used a feat-like structure here on the forums. Forgot who the author was (but proper respect).
A rule to alter the role of the "Big 6" would be at least as valid as Hero Points or Words of Power in a rulebook.
I strongly support the inclusion of such a rule.
A proper and detailed treatment of different levels of magic in the campaign. How does it affect CR? Categorize these differences beyond just WBL, instead detail the kind of campaign altering effects that can come from different kinds of gear.
+1.
I think that "CR++" is something that needs to be tried and tested in rulebooks long before Pathfinder 2nd Edition.
We know for a fact certain things are "left out" of CR calculations, and gear is one of those things. This would be a good place to try and start tackling it, if the Paizo designers were so inclined.
I know in the thread that inspired this Kolokotrani asked for a resource that would help better articulate adjustments for low magic and extremely high magic game set-ups. I do not want to derail this very productive thread as their are numerous low magic ones on the forums already. ...
...yeah, this thread is way better. I hate the other thread.
I agree that something about how gear affects CR would be helpful. Also that this is a good thread.
I'd like to see tables which generate names and quirks for gear.
Rolling and rolling to decide what kinds of wands the party find is dull, but the kind of stuff you get on the gear-related tables in fantasy flight's 40k rpgs is completely different.
I'd just love to find out that my random sword once belonged to a golorion historical figure and was adorned to an impractical degree, bumping up its sale value but granting a bonus to attempts to disarm me. That kind of thing is just interesting.
I'll add my voice to those asking for an overhaul of the system - something that is comprehensive and allows across-the-board use from those that tailor their games with specific items to those that want a 'roll-for-everything' approach.
Definitely a plus in my book. Not just items but I'd like to see equipment lists for everything from stone age to magitech. Rules and/or guidelines for varying magic item levels. Everything everybody else suggested and more!
I think at this point, we have enough suggestions for an entire line of books, as all of them are good, and deserve their fair share of space.
I agree with the OP 110%
The current crafting rules are one of my least favorite parts of the Pathfinder rules.
+1 here
+2, actually, as I would have to buy two copies if I ever thought to get any use from it.
On the Stronghold book, if the designers could figure out a way to integrate it with the Kingmaker material, so that my players could design their castle to their own likings, that would be most excellent.
@Evil Lincoln: Not yet having tried to roll up a treasure pile, I'm interested in watching your example descent into madness.
@Dragonsong: My magic train system would most definitely benefit!
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As one who couldn't wait to get his hard copy of the Adventurer's Armory so I bought the pdf too, I heartily give this idea a +100!
I'd like to see suggestions for standard kits like in Dungeonscape, you know, healer in a box, rogue in a box, what kinds of minor magic/mundane items would be useful for X, and how much those would be.
And I do believe we're all talking about about big hardcover book, not a wimpy little PF Companion-sized book, right?