Hi
Flavorwise I think witches are alot cooler than wizards, but I think beside the more limited spell-list they have another large problem: Their familiar.
Wizards prepare their spells, then store the spellbook at a safe place again, where it's usually very safe. By the time someone can actually target and harm the spellbook or take it away, the wizard is probably dead or unconcious already.
A witches familiar on the other hand is "out there", and can technically be killed rather easily.
Also, wizards can make backup spellbooks, in case something happens to their main one, while I don't think witches can.
Any way to keep your familiar safe, and/or get something like a backup spellbook? (Yes, you can carry around scrolls of important spells so you can teach it to the new familiar again, but aside from that?)
Nope. Get scribe scroll, make a scroll of all your important spells and hide them somewhere is your best - and only - bet.
A witch has her powerful hexes which she can use all day long (most of them, anyway) but she is VERY fragile when compared to a wizard. Her "spellbook" walks around during battle and can be killed and she has almost no defensive spells. I'm pretty sure that's meant to balance the class.
Yes, its somewhat silly, the best familiars seem to be those that can fly (so you can tell them to fly up high into the sky when the battle starts and out of harms way) or really small ones that you can hide in your pocket so they can't be targeted.
The stereotypical black cat of a witch is one of the worse ones though.
Just realised that a new familiar comes back with 2 spells of every level, so I guess that already covers most of the important ones actually, a wizard would probably not have every spell in his backup book and only the most important ones.
Two plus the patron bonus spells. Not such a huge loss after all.
Also... if you take a bonus spell known for your Favored Class instead of the HP/Skill (Humans get it, half-elves too, some others too I guess), they also know those spells still.
Still I think HP or Skill is a better thing to take than a new spell.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Yeah, they come back knowing some spells, so it's not a total loss.
Still, if you're extra worried, and you don't mind using 3pp content, Open Design's Witch's Brew has some feats that help. Whether or not their balanced is up to you and/or your GM to figure out.
I might check that, thanks
Any way to keep your familiar safe, and/or get something like a backup spellbook? (Yes, you can carry around scrolls of important spells so you can teach it to the new familiar again, but aside from that?)
Sure. Someone in the party takes Leadership at Level 7, and one of the first-level followers is a Witch. That follower stays "in town" out of danger.
Every time you return to town, the familiars talk and thus your Witch PC has "backed up her spellbook".
It takes quite a few hours, so it's quite useful in campaigns like Kingmaker which often have the option of many days between dungeons.
Or,
You know, the witch takes leadership herself. Then takes a cohort who's a witch, and all her little followers are witches. Poof, instant coven. Also poof, instantly have most of the lower level witch spells (after all the various familiars commune in the forest clearing for a week).
"If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells)."
You don't gain 2 spells per WITCH level, like when you started, you gain 2 spells per SPELL LEVEL your witch was able to cast. A 10th-level witch will go from knowing a base 20 spells (excluding 0-level) to knowing only 10.
Which REALLY sucks. I can understand losing all of your researched spells you got from adventuring, but suddenly you are weaker than a starting witch? Why not just make it so if the familiar dies the witch dies too. Pretty much the same thing.
The ONLY good thing I see about it is that the new spell list can be different from the old one.
"If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells)."
You don't gain 2 spells per WITCH level, like when you started, you gain 2 spells per SPELL LEVEL your witch was able to cast. A 10th-level witch will go from knowing a base 20 spells (excluding 0-level) to knowing only 10.
Which REALLY sucks. I can understand losing all of your researched spells you got from adventuring, but suddenly you are weaker than a starting witch? Why not just make it so if the familiar dies the witch dies too. Pretty much the same thing.
The ONLY good thing I see about it is that the new spell list can be different from the old one.
And this is why I don't think I will play this class as much as I would like to without house rules or some careful thought on my part to keep my familiar out of harm's way.
"If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells)."
You don't gain 2 spells per WITCH level, like when you started, you gain 2 spells per SPELL LEVEL your witch was able to cast. A 10th-level witch will go from knowing a base 20 spells (excluding 0-level) to knowing only 10.
Which REALLY sucks. I can understand losing all of your researched spells you got from adventuring, but suddenly you are weaker than a starting witch? Why not just make it so if the familiar dies the witch dies too. Pretty much the same thing.
The ONLY good thing I see about it is that the new spell list can be different from the old one.
And this is why I don't think I will play this class as much as I would like to without house rules or some careful thought on my part to keep my familiar out of harm's way.
I'm the type of DM whose npcs would immediately plan to target the familiar upon learning the pc was a witch. However, a part of me would, in this case, actual feel pretty bad about it. I may have to work on a house rule for this. . .
I'm the type of DM who's npc's would immediately plan to target the familiar upon learning the pc was a witch. However, a part of me would, in this case, actual feel pretty bad about it. I may have to work on a house rule for this. . ."If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells)."
You don't gain 2 spells per WITCH level, like when you started, you gain 2 spells per SPELL LEVEL your witch was able to cast. A 10th-level witch will go from knowing a base 20 spells (excluding 0-level) to knowing only 10.
Which REALLY sucks. I can understand losing all of your researched spells you got from adventuring, but suddenly you are weaker than a starting witch? Why not just make it so if the familiar dies the witch dies too. Pretty much the same thing.
The ONLY good thing I see about it is that the new spell list can be different from the old one.
And this is why I don't think I will play this class as much as I would like to without house rules or some careful thought on my part to keep my familiar out of harm's way.
If I was one of your players I would totally cry foul unless said NPCs had some reason to be intimately familiar with witches and how they worked (a band of professional witch hunters, say).
Knowledge Arcana roll. Witch is an arcane tradition , and that would be common knowledge for the witch tradition.
Now if witches are not all that common or known about to most arcane types then the knowledge may have a higher DC, but the familiar weakness would be no harder to learn about then a wizards spellbook weakness.
If I was one of your players I would totally cry foul unless said NPCs had some reason to be intimately familiar with witches and how they worked (a band of professional witch hunters, say).I'm the type of DM who's npc's would immediately plan to target the familiar upon learning the pc was a witch. However, a part of me would, in this case, actual feel pretty bad about it. I may have to work on a house rule for this. . ."If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells)."
You don't gain 2 spells per WITCH level, like when you started, you gain 2 spells per SPELL LEVEL your witch was able to cast. A 10th-level witch will go from knowing a base 20 spells (excluding 0-level) to knowing only 10.
Which REALLY sucks. I can understand losing all of your researched spells you got from adventuring, but suddenly you are weaker than a starting witch? Why not just make it so if the familiar dies the witch dies too. Pretty much the same thing.
The ONLY good thing I see about it is that the new spell list can be different from the old one.
And this is why I don't think I will play this class as much as I would like to without house rules or some careful thought on my part to keep my familiar out of harm's way.
I'm fair about it, they would have to have a reason to have sufficient knowledge and even then succeed at a knowledge roll in order to do so. Bozo the big stupid fighter BBEG clearly would never be capable of this. If they're picking a fight with Geb on the other hand. . .Well you get the picture. :P
Knowledge Arcana roll. Witch is an arcane tradition , and that would be common knowledge for the witch tradition.
Now if witches are not all that common or known about to most arcane types then the knowledge may have a higher DC, but the familiar weakness would be no harder to learn about then a wizards spellbook weakness.
I think I'm going to house rule familiar restoration though. I'm forming an idea along the lines of Witches can create a bonded item that can serve as the host of a slain or destroyed familiar until such time as it can be restored. Obviously I'm going to tweak this, but that's the general idea thus far.
I'm the type of DM who's npcs would immediately plan to target the familiar upon learning the pc was a witch. However, a part of me would, in this case, actual feel pretty bad about it. I may have to work on a house rule for this. . .And this is why I don't think I will play this class as much as I would like to without house rules or some careful thought on my part to keep my familiar out of harm's way."If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells)."
You don't gain 2 spells per WITCH level, like when you started, you gain 2 spells per SPELL LEVEL your witch was able to cast. A 10th-level witch will go from knowing a base 20 spells (excluding 0-level) to knowing only 10.
Which REALLY sucks. I can understand losing all of your researched spells you got from adventuring, but suddenly you are weaker than a starting witch? Why not just make it so if the familiar dies the witch dies too. Pretty much the same thing.
The ONLY good thing I see about it is that the new spell list can be different from the old one.
LOL.I am too and so are my fellow GM's. I might buy an item and pretend it is my bonded item, just to throw bad guys off, if I ever play a witch that is.
I think I'm going to house rule familiar restoration though. I'm forming an idea along the lines of Witches can create a bonded item that can serve as the host of a slain or destroyed familiar until such time as it can be restored. Obviously I'm going to tweak this, but that's the general idea thus far.Knowledge Arcana roll. Witch is an arcane tradition , and that would be common knowledge for the witch tradition.
Now if witches are not all that common or known about to most arcane types then the knowledge may have a higher DC, but the familiar weakness would be no harder to learn about then a wizards spellbook weakness.
If anyone has a better idea for house rule, feel free to share that was literally off the top of my head lol
What about a hex of some type? One that allowed a witch to transfer spells from slain familers? Or even steal spells from living ones.
This could be but useful and nasty as some witches could be out to slay other witches familiar to gain new spells.
Make sure the new familiar has the key spells (web, summon monster III, black tentacles, magic jar, etc) and just scribe scrolls of the spells you never use, but have around anyway, back at your hut, cave, inn, wherever.
Sure its a MINOR inconvenience to have to get the spells back, but how many witch spells are actually that useful beyond the 2 per level you get back for free?
For example, my level 8 Human Witch has the Improved Familiar feat and an Imp familiar (was originally a toad). Her key spells, if the imp dies are mage armor, mount, web, summon swarm (for spiders into the web, for lulz), summon monster III, stinking cloud, black tentacles and summon monster IV.
She's got the deception patron(invisibility ftw), and the cauldron (because brewing potions at level 1 was OP, or so I thought at the time), sleep, healing, flight and disguise hexes so far.
With the exception of confusion, glitterdust and sleet storm, I rarely, if ever memorize any of the chump spells I've accumulated. Heck I only learned most of the throw away spells for potion making purposes. (cure light, cure moderate, remove disease, etc.)
Its not that big a deal for me if my familiar bites it (Not that its going to be easy for my foes to target an invisible tiny creature flying 50+ feet above the battle). The worst part is ponying up the 4k gold it costs to get another one. But between my hexes, potions and wands of summon monster spam, I get by until I can spend a night to get a new underling and then its back to business. I can retrain the bugger with my scroll stash when we level up again or I get around to it.
Make sure the new familiar has the key spells (web, summon monster III, black tentacles, magic jar, etc) and just scribe scrolls of the spells you never use, but have around anyway, back at your hut, cave, inn, wherever.
Well, having scrolls of your spells requires either a big gold investment or a feat + moderate gold investment. Doesn't hurt that bad at the first few levels but as you gain more experience and spells known it gets worse.
Sure its a MINOR inconvenience to have to get the spells back, but how many witch spells are actually that useful beyond the 2 per level you get back for free?
For example, my level 8 Human Witch has the Improved Familiar feat and an Imp familiar (was originally a toad). Her key spells, if the imp dies are mage armor, mount, web, summon swarm (for spiders into the web, for lulz), summon monster III, stinking cloud, black tentacles and summon monster IV.
I agree that the witch spell list isn't all that great. Still, having like 5-6 spell slots per spell level means I'd actually like to have a few different spells to fill them. Unless you cast Mount for the whole group every day, I guess.
Oh, and out of personal curiosity, how did you handle getting the imp? Did you lose all your spells when you switched to the improved familiar?
Killing a witch'd familiar doesn't make her powerless - she has all the spells she had memorized - which she does NOT lose at the end of the day! - and all her hexes....
And a burning need to absolutely wreck the life of the person who destroyed her familiar. Someone who can make pacts with hags and has an unknown, potent patron (which may not necessarily be extraplanar) is not someone people should arbitrarily piss off. Any NPC has heard tales of curses lasting generations, the horrible vengeance carried out by spellcasters, the visitation of monstrous demons and powers that occur if you annoy spellcaster....and a PC should think very, very carefully before pissing off a witch for the very same reason.
You don't need knowledge arcana to have heard tales of sorcerous vengeance carried out in myths and legends. I mean, we have those here on earth, and have for thousands of years, and we don't even have working magic!
It makes her powerless once her spells are used, minus the hexes of course, at least until the new familiar arrives. The issue we are discussing though is from the point of a player that has had his familiar killed. Most NPC's don't survive the combat anyway.
Oh, and out of personal curiosity, how did you handle getting the imp? Did you lose all your spells when you switched to the improved familiar?
The DM had the toad transform into the imp.
It didn't lose any of the spells.I had prepared for any eventuality though, having had my toad killed once before through misadventure. (I learned to keep it in my pockets/pouches after that) Had a stash of scrolls on hand for some of the spells I still wanted.
The imp has yet to be killed since I got him at 7th level. But then again, he's always invisible and flying. The DR5, resist 10 cold/acid and immunity to fire and poison, coupled with improved evasion also helps.
Going to try to get him upgraded to the rare imp that can polymorph itself into other tiny creatures and telepathically communicate with anyone in 50', which will make it even MORE useful.
You have use magic device on your skill list. The most a dead familiar should ever cost you is 5,100 gp. By the time you have enough spells that losing your familiar is a significant loss, it's cheaper than the Wizard's spare spellbook.
I like the Leadership trick, though. That's a very compelling reason for Witches to take apprentices.
You have use magic device on your skill list. The most a dead familiar should ever cost you is 5,100 gp. By the time you have enough spells that losing your familiar is a significant loss, it's cheaper than the Wizard's spare spellbook.
Could you elaborate what you're getting at and why 5,100?
If you're refering to a Raise Dead scroll or so, I think that's abit more expensive than 5,100, and also not sure it can actually resurrect a familiar.Have none of you actually ever experienced the risk of losing something valuable and the challenge of recovering it? Gawd, the complaining here.... If you don't want to be hurt, don't go out into the big, dangerous world to attack monsters. Or at least have some contingency plans in place.
Did you actually read the thread or just assumed you know what's been said? Because we've been discussing just that, contingency plans, and what a witch can do when the worst case happens.
Also "Sorry, it's all gone, you have to relearn it from scratch" is not exactly my idea of "recovering it"
Could you elaborate what you're getting at and why 5,100?
If you're refering to a Raise Dead scroll or so, I think that's abit more expensive than 5,100, and also not sure it can actually resurrect a familiar.
Reincarnate and two scrolls of restoration. 700 each for 4th level scrolls, 1,000 each for material components. After 8th level, a Witch with the Healing patron doesn't even have to use the scrolls.
A dead familiar is a legal target for either reincarnate or raise dead and there's no rule saying they can't be raised. You don't have to replace a familiar that isn't dead anymore.
Besides, it's much more thematically appropriate for a Witch to try to get her old familiar back than to just summon a new one.
Keep the familiar somewhere safe (in a pocket or extra-dimensional space depending on familiar type) and have an identical animal as a pet that follows you around. Bad guys target the pet and think they killed your familiar. How about that for a backup. ;-)
That might even work, you probably end up with a different kind of familiar then though.
The problem I see is the 2 negative levels. Familiars don't have "real" HD, they are always considered to be their masters level. Their HP is not related to HD at all, but always half that of the master. BAB the same. It doesn't seem to gain feats or skills as it doesn't gain actual HD.
The problem I see is the 2 negative levels. Familiars don't have "real" HD, they are always considered to be their masters level. Their HP is not related to HD at all, but always half that of the master. BAB the same. It doesn't seem to gain feats or skills as it doesn't gain actual HD.
Their hit points are half the master's. Their HD are the master's class level. Technically, the negative levels don't even matter unless you're using your familiar in combat or for skill checks or something, but I don't like loose ends.
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We ended up doing something similar. The familiar if it dies comes back in 2d12-1 hours or 1-23 hours. It shows up where the witch is. In a dungeon it might walk around the corner up head, or come out of the darkness into the firelight at camp etc. To give it a more other worldly aspect to it. To help make sure it is still bad, we ended up saying while the familiar is the witch cast spells as if -1 lvl per 5 levels. So a 1-5th level witch would cast 1 level lower. a 6-10th level 2 levels lower, 11-15th 3 levels lower and 16-20 4 levels lower.
To be fair we never tested that at higher levels the one game we did play using that house rule ended at 9th level. But it worked fairly well. Still a pain to lose the familiar.
On topic, yeah, losing all but a few spells would suck. I like the leadership/coven workaround using RAW, that seems like your best solution.
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Its house rules time I think.
The flavor of a witch having an un-killable otherworldly servitor is too awesome to pass up. Either a hex or an archetype would do this pretty nicely. Or better yet, a spell with a 24 hour duration. I would spend a spell slot for something that buffs my familiar and makes death an inconvenience for it. It would be a wonderful flavor thing for a witch BBEG to menace the party with a demonic-shadowy looking thing that continued to stalk them, yowling while they tried to sleep, frightening the townsfolk. A creature that haunted the party always, even going so far as to discorperate when killed, coming back later to gaze at the PCs with a dispassionate look of triumph. An unkillable familiar would contribute to a wonderful atmosphere of dread and enhance the mystique of any witch possessed of the ability. I might write something up a bit later in the house rules forum and link to it here.
If your game allows Dragon Magazine material, there's the Extra Familiar feat in issue #280, along with a couple of feats for alternate familiars and spells that affect familiars.
Were it me, I'd just houserule away the lose of spells when a familaiar kicks it; it would further match some of the old superstitions dealing with familiars, namely that the animal isn't some magical beast, but rather it is an ordinary animal inhabited/possessed by an otherworldly spirit. The familiar dies, the spirit is without a vessel until the witch summons a new one. That way, each familiar is really the same one.
I honestly don't understand why they included such a rule to begin with.
Removed a post - please keep your posts above the belt, please!
I honestly don't understand why they included such a rule to begin with.
Wizards get spellbooks. Witches get familiars. The familiar has always been a key point of witch folklore, so it makes sense to make it a key element of the class.
On the topic of replacing familiars, this is something I've been wondering.
If you take the Improved Familiar feat, while your old familiar is still alive, can you summon a new familiar without losing your spells?
I honestly don't understand why they included such a rule to begin with.Wizards get spellbooks. Witches get familiars. The familiar has always been a key point of witch folklore, so it makes sense to make it a key element of the class.
On the topic of replacing familiars, this is something I've been wondering.
If you take the Improved Familiar feat, while your old familiar is still alive, can you summon a new familiar without losing your spells?
It's not covered in the rules. However, I plan to rule it that the new familiar shows up, communes with the hold familiar, and absorbs the essence of being a familiar from the old familiar. The old familiar then returns to being a normal animal, while the spirit energy that made it a familiar is transferred into the new familiar.