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Please don't start any new flame wars. Let's make something productive out of this.
It's clear the other thread isn't going to go anywhere, with lines being drawn between a false dichotomy of roleplayers vs powergamers and no one really listening to each other.
Fresh start now, and hopefully in a productive direction.
What do monk players want out of the concept of a monk that forsakes wealth?
There's no way we're going to reach a perfect consensus, but if we can find some decent common theme perhaps we can build and codify something flavorful and balanced that would be an easy houserule to sell to our groups, particularly for monk players trying ot sell the idea to their GMs. But first we need to know what we're building towards.
Just my take, not going to pretend it's universal:
VoP is simply one facet in a much larger problem - that in order to do anything, you need magic. If you can't cast it, you need it in itemized form.
I think the reason VoP is under such fire is that the idea of, quite frankly, any martial character with no fancy dress-wearing wizard made elf-sword and no curly pointy ponce boots who can still kick the behind of everything he encounters is something that a lot of people love. The warrior who doesn't need "magic" to be incredibly awesome.
This is compounded by the fact that a monk who just walks with no big possession and just delivers justice at the end of his fist is, like, every martial arts character ever made in the history of everything. A monk decked from head to toe in magic items doesn't really appear anywhere. So, the drive to make a monk that's just a consumate badass without needing any "magic" is a big one.
Basically, I think the biggest issue with VoP isn't with VoP at all. It's with the game mechanic emphasis on characters requiring magic items in order to be good.
The easiest way to solve VoP is simply to introduce an alternate rule along the lines of inherent bonuses. Unfortunately, that stuff's way too complicated for me to really crack into.
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Vow of poverty like the BoED ability, or the new archetype ability from UM?
Personally? Between the two, I'm hoping for something closer in spirit to the original BoED version. Something that enables a selfless martial artist character that doesn't depend on gear to keep up, while fitting into the PF ruleset. Others may want something else entirely.
The easiest way to solve VoP is simply to introduce an alternate rule along the lines of inherent bonuses. Unfortunately, that stuff's way too complicated for me to really crack into.
Well, if that's what it takes...
(why such an alternate system hasn't already been built for 3.x/PF yet I'll never know)
It has been. Multiple forum-goers have proposed the idea. It just hasn't been playtested or published.
(why such an alternate system hasn't already been built for 3.x/PF yet I'll never know)
There has been such a thing published, it's a book called Iron Heroes by Malhavoc Press. It is a setting which is extremely low/no magic what so ever, one gains bonuses by performing stunts (skill checks). I have been working on adapting it to pathfinder but that system uses all the old 3.x skills for these stunts and haven't tested it to see if the massive reduction in skills causes issues.
Iron Heroes does not work in a high magic setting though. It also has other issues I don't agree with. The stunts IIRC were to dependent on a GM's judgement.
I don't want to derail the thread though.
As for the VoP issue I think the big six can be replicated like the 3.5 vow tried to do, but many magic items give options such as flying(one among a not so small list) that the monk won't have access to. These lack of options are the problem with the VoP.
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I have a couple different takes saved, I'll post them after work.
I'll keep an eye out, thanks!
As for the VoP issue I think the big six can be replicated like the 3.5 vow tried to do, but many magic items give options such as flying(one among a not so small list) that the monk won't have access to. These lack of options are the problem with the VoP.
Maybe unique VoP abilities could confront that, though trying to take them all on could lead to some serious clutter...
Something like "falling skyward" or "wind ride" or "launch self at target"...
Honestly, I rather have the VoP from UM than the one from BoED. If I had to suggest an improvement, I'd say a small set of additional ki powers become available to holders of a particular vow. These aren't automatically granted, they merely become available for monks that have the appropriate vow. If a monk loses a vow, he naturally does not have access to those powers. For vow of poverty that could be:
4th-Level Ki Power: resistance (0 ki points)
6th-Level Ki Power: cat's grace (1 ki point, self only)
8th-Level Ki Power: mage armor (1 ki point, self only)
10th-Level Ki Power: bull strength (1 ki point, self only)
12th-Level Ki Power: Combat Reflexes (1 ki point, immediate action)
14th-Level Ki Power: greater magic fang (3 ki points, self only)
16th-Level Ki Power: break enchantment (3 ki points)
18th-Level Ki Power: regenerate (3 ki points, self only)
20th-Level Ki Power: anti magic field (6 ki points)
I'm okay with that - the point is the concept of having the vows expose additional powers. You can fiddle the balance til you happy with the middle-ground you create.
Another option:
A vow gives the monk a +x bonus to his effective monk level for the purpose of monk bonus AC, unarmed damage and ki powers. This bonus cannot make the monk's effective level increase to more than twice his actual monk level.
Vow of poverty: +4 effective monk level
Vow of silence: +1 effective monk level
Vow of truth: +0 effective monk level
etc.
Third option:
Since the vow of poverty monk is effectively lower level than the rest of the party, just grant him more XP. If he's about 30% higher level; then the various +s he's missing from no items are carried by his increased level.
Potential progression:
party level 1 - 1 monk level
party level 2 - 2 monk level
party level 3 - 4 monk level
party level 4 - 5 monk level
party level 5 - 6 monk level
party level 6 - 8 monk level
party level 7 - 9 monk level
party level 8 - 10 monk level
party level 9 - 12 monk level
party level 10 - 13 monk level
party level 11 - 14 monk level
party level 12 - 16 monk level
party level 13 - 17 monk level
party level 14 - 18 monk level
party level 15 - 20 monk level
party level 16 - 20 monk level
party level 17 - 20 monk level
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Those approaches may work for some groups, but anything that requires the GM to juggle level imbalance and xp variation is going to be much harder to "sell" to a group for any player wanting to play such a concept, not to mention the other players he would have multiple levels over. It also doesn't really help at the highest levels where the monk's progression will come to a halt while the others catch up.
If it can be made into something relatively self-contained and in an easy-to-fit-in form, a player would have a much easier time selling his character and actually getting to play his concept.
On another note, I have to admit I might be looking at this with a bit of tunnel vision, because when I look at a potential VoP monk I think of it in terms of a good aligned or at least a relatively benign LN monk, because the Book of Exalted Deeds VoP was the VoP to me. But should it be made available to just plain LN and even LE monks as well, with fitting flavor options? Impoverished Zon-Kuthonite monks are very likely in the Golarion setting after all... But then that also probably impacts who you're giving all of your wealth to and why.
Just got to wondering about that, because everything I was visualizing as potential stuff to add for the VoP monk was of a decided goodish-lawful bent.
Going to try and work up an inherent bonus progression that doesn't copy the BoED VoP outright when I have any free time. Seems that would be the biggest headache to balance out.
VoP could be a monk archetype with full BAB, 1d10 hp/lvl, more Ki points and more self healing/buffing abilities (because he can't rely on consumable items). I don't know anything about the 3.X and UM versions of VoP, so maybe what I'm suggesting has already being done. IMO, in the end of the day, the VoP monk SHOULD be weaker than the suggested WBL monk, but the gap between them should be quite small and the VoP monk would be immune to sunder, shatter and antimagic field.
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VoP could be a monk archetype with full BAB, 1d10 hp/lvl, more Ki points and more self healing/buffing abilities (because he can't rely on consumable items). I don't know anything about the 3.X and UM versions of VoP, so maybe what I'm suggesting has already being done. IMO, in the end of the day, the VoP monk SHOULD be weaker than the suggested WBL monk, but the gap between them should be quite small and the VoP monk would be immune to sunder, shatter and antimagic field.
Man, that's a solid idea. It's portable between groups, cleanly modular and self-contained. Just slap it on the monk and you're set.
The only drawback that leaps out at me is that it would likely be incompatible with the other monk archetypes. Still...
Are full-blown alternate classes compatible with archetypes for the parent class?
VoP could be a monk archetype with full BAB, 1d10 hp/lvl, more Ki points and more self healing/buffing abilities (because he can't rely on consumable items). I don't know anything about the 3.X and UM versions of VoP, so maybe what I'm suggesting has already being done. IMO, in the end of the day, the VoP monk SHOULD be weaker than the suggested WBL monk, but the gap between them should be quite small and the VoP monk would be immune to sunder, shatter and antimagic field.Man, that's a solid idea. It's portable between groups, cleanly modular and self-contained. Just slap it on the monk and you're set.
The only drawback that leaps out at me is that it would likely be incompatible with the other monk archetypes. Still...
Are full-blown alternate classes compatible with archetypes for the parent class?
And what mechanic would you use if the monk breaks his VoP? Maybe he could gain one negative level (duration = 1 day) for every permanent magic items he has on his person. He should be allowed to have a limited number of consumable magic items on his person, like 3 or 5 potions or scrolls, or maybe a maximum of gears fixed by a gp value, like something between 100gp and 500gp per level.
Same penalty Paladins get when they break their code. Hammer of freakin god. Lose all monk special abilities until you atone. Done.
The only problem I see with the VoP monk is that not every GM follow the suggested WBL guideline. In a campaing with a WBL that is above the average, the VoP monk would feel useless, and in a campaing with a WBL under the average, a WoP would be overpowered... well, maybe not more overpowered than a full caster in such a campaing. ;)
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WBL may be the biggest hurdle for balancing it all, but considering how MAD monks are it may not be that big a deal. But I have to admit I'd love to see a game where the monk was more effective than a non-intentionally-gimped caster, jst once. :(
And agreed on monks losing their VoP abilities if they break their vow, and the need to atone. Not sure about going through atonement for it though, since they're not going to be attatched to the money involved anyway. (Full disclosure: I always thought atonement should lean more on roleplaying anyway than simply being able to buy your way back into good graces, but the spell puts that possibility forward anyway)
And what mechanic would you use if the monk breaks his VoP? Maybe he could gain one negative level (duration = 1 day) for every permanent magic items he has on his person. He should be allowed to have a limited number of consumable magic items on his person, like 3 or 5 potions or scrolls, or maybe a maximum of gears fixed by a gp value, like something between 100gp and 500gp per level.
Perhaps with the caveat that they can't be bought, they must be gifts freely given? Definitely can't sell them and use that money for other consumables, but they could be sold if the money was to be given to the poor, opening that 100-500 gp. consumable allowance slot to be freed up for something else.
My only worry on that is if it could slip into the flavor-breaking issue that the UM VoP has: You're poor, except for that superexpensive thing you're dependant on anyway.
I think that a PC that gives up something as central to character development as "wealth" should be able to do something completely unlike other PC's. This, admittedly, complicates things insofar as I'm suggesting a new mechanic, and also you still run into the issues of balancing the benefits against the more abstract "power level" of the campaign.
Having said that, I think it presents an interesting way to allow PC's to take on templates. You would obviously have only a limited list of templates available, and you could limit things to only having one or two templates at a time being applicable by providing a "budget" of the CR adjustment of the template, tied into the character's level.
My thinking is that at higher levels, the disparity between the haves and have-nots become more and more pronounced, so then the kinds of otherwise game-breaking abilities that Templates could provide would have less of an impact.
Perhaps even add a feat that would enable the Vow-holder to undergo some sort of ritual that might enable them to change Templates on a day-to-day level. You lose raw power, perhaps, but gain an insane level of versatility.
I also think that being able to take on sort of pseudo-multiclass as an oracle via Vows might be a useful option... not getting the real potency of an Oracle's Mysteries, but an impoverished Oracle\Monk has some nice wuxia flavor to it.
EDIT: this might also enable the vow to be more portable to other classes...
What you really need is a chart that lists the magical effects by value and a chart that lists how much wealth the character should have at any level.. and then as he acquires wealth and "donates it" to whatever cause, he can pick things off the list as appropriate.
Sort of like.. the WBL charts, and the minor/major magical items and such, already done up :)
I'd give a mark up (maybe 10/20%?) for them being permanent effects but really you are good to go as is.
For higher wealth games the DM can adjust it up and for lower wealth campaigns the DM can increase it, and/or remove some things from the list.
This allows the character all the fluff of "I'm donating my money and my mental strength and willpower is making me stronger" while also allowing the character virtually all of the strengths of the normal geared person. It keeps him from being a gimp and a problem for the party as well.. and if he's falling behind in power the DM can just lower costs and/or increase his wealth allowance.
-S
The easiest solution would be to allow the monk to "spend" the money that he donates on internal abilities that simulate permanent magic items.
If you, like me, flavor "item slots" as different energy chakras on the body, then this follows the flavor just fine. The monk learns to "awaken" the hidden power in his chakras, gaining the abilities of slotted magical items and "using up" those slots as normal.
This has the advantage of giving the monk TONS of options that he can flavor however he wants, and maintaining WBL in terms of the most important equipment. Also, the monk's "awakened chakra powers" can't be sundered or stolen like magic items can.
The disadvantage is a lack of flexibility, as I probably would not create a mechanic by which a monk can "sell" one power to get another (although if he only got half the value back, this wouldn't be too broken).
... aaaaand... ninja'd pretty hard there. :-)
I dig that idea too... Perhaps borrowing from one of the only of the 3.5 alternate mechanics that I never really researched -- Incarnum? Get rid of the goofy blue energy stuff, it seems like a viable option.
Also, it would be really worthwhile to have said "schedule of fees" to include those things provided by the 3.5 VoP, at least to have it as a benchmark.
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"Awakened chakra powers" are a very nice thought, but they're also a perfect fit for the Pathfinder setting as well considering Vudra.
What you really need is a chart that lists the magical effects by value and a chart that lists how much wealth the character should have at any level.
Time to scour PF SRD up and down. This could take a while. ;)
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I said this in another thread, and I'm doing so only to be helpful.
The main stumbling block for this concept to me is the WBL problem for other party members.
I'm sure everyone understands what I mean by this, but to reiterate: Published adventures distribute wealth according to WBL for four characters (or thereabouts). Then, to compound the problem, various tables distribute that wealth however they see fit, although the standard tactic seems to be to merely sum value and divide by 4. This isn't always possible, though - when you find, say, a +3 keen longsword and 720gp, and your fighter happens to be a longsword specialist, for example. If one of the characters doesn't accept treasure - or isn't basically forced to fairly acquire treasure and then give it away - but is still just as capable as the rest of the party without the wealth, the whole kit 'n kaboodle is thrown off for the rest of the party, who has just received a considerable boost in power from their increased treasure haul.
Which, of course, all comes back to Cirno's point. Which is absolutely correct.
I like the idea of this concept as much as anyone. I just don't see a way that it's possible within the framework of the current ruleset without breaking a whole bunch of other stuff.
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I said this in another thread, and I'm doing so only to be helpful.
The main stumbling block for this concept to me is the WBL problem for other party members.
I'm sure everyone understands what I mean by this, but to reiterate: Published adventures distribute wealth according to WBL for four characters (or thereabouts). Then, to compound the problem, various tables distribute that wealth however they see fit, although the standard tactic seems to be to merely sum value and divide by 4. This isn't always possible, though - when you find, say, a +3 keen longsword and 720gp, and your fighter happens to be a longsword specialist, for example. If one of the characters doesn't accept treasure - or isn't basically forced to fairly acquire treasure and then give it away - but is still just as capable as the rest of the party without the wealth, the whole kit 'n kaboodle is thrown off for the rest of the party, who has just received a considerable boost in power from their increased treasure haul.
Which, of course, all comes back to Cirno's point. Which is absolutely correct.
I like the idea of this concept as much as anyone. I just don't see a way that it's possible within the framework of the current ruleset without breaking a whole bunch of other stuff.
Perhaps the monk should be required by his vow to demand his fair share of treasure, after which he distributes it to the genuinely poor and needy. To make it more managable most of the time, perhaps he could give it to the appropriate church/monastery/organization that would see that it is put to proper use and distribution.
I remember hearing about BoED monks just giving their loot to the rest of the party to boost them up, which just struck me as going against the spirit of what was supposed to be an "Exalted" feat. I couldn't believe that the vow didn't explicitly state that the money needed to go to the needy, or perhaps it did and some, as expected, took "needy" to include their party.
That only confronts the issue of the rest of the party getting a loot boost though.
I said this in another thread, and I'm doing so only to be helpful.
The main stumbling block for this concept to me is the WBL problem for other party members.
I'm sure everyone understands what I mean by this, but to reiterate: Published adventures distribute wealth according to WBL for four characters (or thereabouts). Then, to compound the problem, various tables distribute that wealth however they see fit, although the standard tactic seems to be to merely sum value and divide by 4. This isn't always possible, though - when you find, say, a +3 keen longsword and 720gp, and your fighter happens to be a longsword specialist, for example. If one of the characters doesn't accept treasure - or isn't basically forced to fairly acquire treasure and then give it away - but is still just as capable as the rest of the party without the wealth, the whole kit 'n kaboodle is thrown off for the rest of the party, who has just received a considerable boost in power from their increased treasure haul.
Requiring the monk to actually "spend" his share of the money (that is to say, donate or otherwise dispose of it) in order to get the awakened chakra benefits deals with this problem.
Requiring the monk to actually "spend" his share of the money (that is to say, donate or otherwise dispose of it) in order to get the awakened chakra benefits deals with this problem.I said this in another thread, and I'm doing so only to be helpful.
The main stumbling block for this concept to me is the WBL problem for other party members.
I'm sure everyone understands what I mean by this, but to reiterate: Published adventures distribute wealth according to WBL for four characters (or thereabouts). Then, to compound the problem, various tables distribute that wealth however they see fit, although the standard tactic seems to be to merely sum value and divide by 4. This isn't always possible, though - when you find, say, a +3 keen longsword and 720gp, and your fighter happens to be a longsword specialist, for example. If one of the characters doesn't accept treasure - or isn't basically forced to fairly acquire treasure and then give it away - but is still just as capable as the rest of the party without the wealth, the whole kit 'n kaboodle is thrown off for the rest of the party, who has just received a considerable boost in power from their increased treasure haul.
While I would prefer a set of rules on innate bonuses for characters to play without magic items, I'm going to use this justification next time I want to play a monk. I'll be able to play my poverty stricken monk and just "buy" up the item equivalents as innate bonuses instead of physical items. It isn't really the same thing as a vow of poverty, just a re-flavored name for the gear that the monk is still dependent on, but it's the best thing I can think of using the rules Pathfinder has at the moment.
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Requiring the monk to actually "spend" his share of the money (that is to say, donate or otherwise dispose of it) in order to get the awakened chakra benefits deals with this problem.
Except it really doesn't, respectfully, because treasure is not always divided equally. See, for example, the Keen Longsword example I gave in my last post. What's going to happen there? The monk's going to demand that the fighter sell his sweet new sword or else the monk's going to take his ball...er, wait, he doesn't have a ball...and go home? If I'm the fighter, I'm going to say "Try playing a character that doesn't eff up my fun at the expense of your own."
Party treasure distribution is by need a malleable concept, and nobody I know likes bookkeeping. Well, OK I know this one accountant, but he doesn't count, NPI. Who wants to be the guy that does the long arithmatic at the table in order to satisfy some character's vow of poverty? I wouldn't.
It's a hurdle, is all I'm saying. Probably not unresolvable, but certainly not as easy to resolve as "just make him take his share and give it away".
Gonna go with something radical here, stick with me.
I think the biggest problem is that WBL is measured by wealth, not ability.
Consider if at level 5 it wasn't "You should have about $x" and was instead "You should have a +1 weapon, +1 AC of one type, +1 AC of another type, and y gold for misc. items" I believe MIC in 3.5 actually tried to do something similar to this.
If rather then WBL it was Capabilities By Level. The misc. items would go to your utility stuff like wands and potions and the like. It could start centered in the Big Six (so at one point you have +2 to one stat, or +4 to one stat an +2 to another) and eventually reach othernormal capabilities (access to a form of flight). This means that Vow of Poverty could be as simple as gaining those capabilities without needing the items, but giving up the misc. gold and items in it's stead.
"Cirno, how do wizards play into this?"
I don't have the slightest idea :B
Now, this would actually be wayyy more complicated then I'm presenting, and would have a lot of issues, which is probably why it hasn't been done. Characters with more then one weapon throw another wrench into this, for example. It also cuts down on versatility to choose your own items, which is a pretty big flaw.
Maybe if it stuck side by side with WBL? Like, you should have x gold or these equivilant abilities? Just idea balling here.
OK, I have all of five minutes of thought into this, but what if VoP gave the monk a nice whopping wisdom bonus?
Something like an inherent bonus to wisdom equal to monk level?
Sounds crazy, but at 20th level, this is only 9 points or a +4 bonus over what you would have from a +6 headband and a +5 from tomes. You would be a weaker all about character, but your monk abilities would be nicely enhanced.
It should also include some sort of clause that allows for consumables and a few item that represent something like 10% of normal WBL.
I can see how this might be under-powered, but not overpowered.
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Sounds crazy, but at 20th level, this is only 9 points or a +4 bonus over what you would have from a +6 headband and a +5 from tomes. You would be a weaker all about character, but your monk abilities would be nicely enhanced.It should also include some sort of clause that allows for consumables and a few item that represent something like 10% of normal WBL.
I can see how this might be under-powered, but not overpowered.
I'm not sure I'd like just pouring everything into one stat only(and so high), especially after the support for the Monk's MAD allowed by the original VoP. BUT, if the guided property could come into play somehow, that could be a bit of a gamechanger for him. Someone more savvy with the maths would have to bounce that around to figure if it would be helpful as far as keeping up though.
But yeah, certainly wouldn't be overpowered, but it would still be something.
And it plays pretty well to the whole idea of GIVE AWAY WEALTH [advicedog] GET ENLIGHTENMENT
I said this in another thread, and I'm doing so only to be helpful.
The main stumbling block for this concept to me is the WBL problem for other party members.
I'm sure everyone understands what I mean by this, but to reiterate: Published adventures distribute wealth according to WBL for four characters (or thereabouts). Then, to compound the problem, various tables distribute that wealth however they see fit, although the standard tactic seems to be to merely sum value and divide by 4. This isn't always possible, though - when you find, say, a +3 keen longsword and 720gp, and your fighter happens to be a longsword specialist, for example. If one of the characters doesn't accept treasure - or isn't basically forced to fairly acquire treasure and then give it away - but is still just as capable as the rest of the party without the wealth, the whole kit 'n kaboodle is thrown off for the rest of the party, who has just received a considerable boost in power from their increased treasure haul.
Which, of course, all comes back to Cirno's point. Which is absolutely correct.
I like the idea of this concept as much as anyone. I just don't see a way that it's possible within the framework of the current ruleset without breaking a whole bunch of other stuff.
Perhaps the monk should be required by his vow to demand his fair share of treasure, after which he distributes it to the genuinely poor and needy. To make it more managable most of the time, perhaps he could give it to the appropriate church/monastery/organization that would see that it is put to proper use and distribution.
I remember hearing about BoED monks just giving their loot to the rest of the party to boost them up, which just struck me as going against the spirit of what was supposed to be an "Exalted" feat. I couldn't believe that the vow didn't explicitly state that the money needed to go to the needy, or perhaps it did and some, as expected, took "needy" to include their party.
IIRC the money was supposed to be donated to the need. I allows 20% of the monk in my game's wealth to go to the party in case the caster's had to use any consumables such as scrolls or wands on him. That way he is not a financial burden to the party.
A system which adjusts WBL to about 40% of normal and gives out stats boosts for attributes, resistance bonuses to saves and renamed deflection/natural armor bonuses to AC ( competence/heroic, perhaps ) would work well in that regard. Most heroes would still need magic arms and armor, but the VoP as written in Pathfinder could almost work here, because a Monk would literally only need an AC item and a Amulet of Mighty Fists equivalent.
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Magnuskn, if you ever take on the (admittedly hefty) task of writing up such an approach in detail, I'd love to see it!
i do like however the idea of the "chakra unlock/buyout" thing. it does account for making it balanced wealth wise, but it doesnt give a whole lot of background of "i did a good dead, so god decided to give me xxx ability" like BoED did. plus the "chakra" system can and will work for other aligned characters such as the LN and LE monks without the "good only divine intervention" that was only possible in BoED. the "chakra" (and i keep using quotes on it due to lack of a better name. cuz it needs a new name to not confuse it w/ Incarnum things) is one of the best solutions or suggestions i've read thus far for including the VoP as a viable option.
This is where I'm heavily leaning now when I write up my own. And "Chakra" actually works in the context of the setting. I'm not sure if I'm going to go the archetype route with it or not since it could lock out the others(especially Qinggong). Your "free" archetype idea frees that up though(especially Qinggong)! ....though I'd worry about this opening things up for abuse(especially Qinggong). ;)
And we run with the "group loot" approach too. It really does help keep everyone on equal ground.
I really enjoyed VoP back in the day. It did a pretty good job of nailing the "manifest destiny of awesomeness" that I expect from my gaming. Not so much that I was really any better than the magic item laden party members around me, which I wasn't, but rather I didn't have to fuss with all the loot management. I didn't spend hours pouring over books to figure out what to buy, or the bigger nightmare... what to sell. I just walked about being potent. There were real life benefits, in that I often could come later or leave earlier from game sessions and get real life stuff done because I didn't have to put time into the Accountants & Actuaries part of the game.
Missed this earlier, but this is a huge perk that the original VoP had that shouldn't be forgotten. :)
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Putting something together (slowly) along the lines of an archetype approach involving branching or nested "unlocked chakra": Some grant inherent bonuses, some grant ki abilities, and so forth, all of which start at a root chakra. Some of them would likely have a minimum level requirement.
I'm hoping the chained approach answers the issue of characters taking the vow of poverty on mid-way into their careers, as a way to keep them from cheesing out inherent bonuses from elsewhere through gold use and jumping right into the big VoP stuff as soon as they take it.
I'm going to try and keep it compatable with all of the other archetypes. Going that route, these chakras will probably lean towards the sublte while leaving the flashy for Qinggong abilities, perhaps.
Quick question: Do you think the option to weild a mundane weapon is something that needs to be in such a concept, or are most people fine with an assumption that this will be a weaponless character?
What I'd suggest personally for it, is that after so many levels of keeping your vow, you gain a "Ki Focus" or something along those lines.
You break the vow, you lose these ki foci.
Like Purity of Mind, Body and Soul.
You can gain Soul with vow of proverty, which allows you the ability to deflect rays. (Of course it would have a fairly good level requirement.)
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Considering, a minor perk outside the chakra progression could work fine as long as nothing overpowering or synergizing brokenly well sneaks in. I'm DEFINITELY going to field this stuff here before putting it to pdf.
And you've just given me the three major branches of chakra I need to work with. :D
How the chakra chart is laid out might be cool for some folks but I'm afraid others are going to rage when they see it. Hopefully just a bit though! ;)
Personally, I'd like to see this stay as Class-Neutral as possible. Only Monks and Ninjas use ki at this point, and I think keeping the structure of the vow ki-centric in nature is too limiting. I love the Chakras thing, but I think that the fundamental benefits of opening a chakra should stay out of Monk-ville.
Perhaps each chakra has a scaling advantage that increases with level, and that instead of "exalted feats" you might have a menu of Chakra Foci that fall within Mind, Body, and soul categories. You can assign one foci per chakra, once they are opened, and those foci may or may not be monk-centric.
So, lets say you have a total of 7 chakras (going from memory). Every 3 levels, you can open 1. Each one of them grants a different kind of bonus, perhaps Crown offers increasing awareness of magic, starting with detect magic, then through see invisible, detect alignment, and eventually True Seeing. On top of that, you can choose one of the Mind, Body, or Soul Foci to "attach" to that chakra, which may be, for instance, a ki power, or a bonus feat... A Foci would not NECESSARILY be specific to a given chakra, though perhaps a Mind foci might get some kind of boost (a minor one) if they were attached to one chakra or another?
The Foci themselves, I picture, would be something along the lines in power level as a Rogue trick, oracle blessing, or whatnot. Perhaps you could take a feat that would enable you to reassign foci on leveling up, similar to the way a spontaneous caster can re-learn spells?
This would enable the Chakras system to be very monk-centric, or be just as viable to a sorcerer or Druid, depending on what Foci they take.
Now, that is a LOT of benefit, I grant, and makes the character very dependent on their chakras remaining open. Breaking the vow, depending on which stricture of mind, body, or soul they violate, would close out those foci until they atoned. I think shutting off EVERYTHING might be a bit much, and there should also be some kind of way to close a chakra, perhaps through illness, disease, or attribute damage?
Putting something together (slowly) along the lines of an archetype approach involving branching or nested "unlocked chakra": Some grant inherent bonuses, some grant ki abilities, and so forth, all of which start at a root chakra. Some of them would likely have a minimum level requirement.
I'm hoping the chained approach answers the issue of characters taking the vow of poverty on mid-way into their careers, as a way to keep them from cheesing out inherent bonuses from elsewhere through gold use and jumping right into the big VoP stuff as soon as they take it.
I'm going to try and keep it compatable with all of the other archetypes. Going that route, these chakras will probably lean towards the sublte while leaving the flashy for Qinggong abilities, perhaps.
Quick question: Do you think the option to weild a mundane weapon is something that needs to be in such a concept, or are most people fine with an assumption that this will be a weaponless character?
I think a weapon should be an option.
I also think a list like the qinggong monk, but having abilities to choose from instead of spells would work.The option to choose ability scores to imitate the big six should also be an option. They may end up weaker than a regular monk, but it should be survivable.
Requiring the monk to actually "spend" his share of the money (that is to say, donate or otherwise dispose of it) in order to get the awakened chakra benefits deals with this problem.Except it really doesn't, respectfully, because treasure is not always divided equally.
Now your criticism has ceased to make sense to me. How is unequal distribution of treasure a VoP problem? It's a fairness problem whether VoP exists or not.
If the monk doesn't get his share of the treasure according to WBL, he'll be underpowered whether he would usually actually buy magical items or virtually "buys" them through donation.
Considering, a minor perk outside the chakra progression could work fine as long as nothing overpowering or synergizing brokenly well sneaks in. I'm DEFINITELY going to field this stuff here before putting it to pdf.
And you've just given me the three major branches of chakra I need to work with. :D
How the chakra chart is laid out might be cool for some folks but I'm afraid others are going to rage when they see it. Hopefully just a bit though! ;)
I'd be happy to offer my assistance\input if you're interested in a bit of collaboration ...