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Yeah it is not like atheism have not been responisble from some of the gratest crime against humanity in the real world...or something. Oh wait when Russia and China went communism(which by design is atheistic) they brutaly repressed relgious thought.
Now I don't care what people believe. But don't think for a second atheism has clean hands as a religion either.
Atheism isn't a religion or beleif system. There is no atheist doctrine, there is no guiding unifying force. There is no book where it says that the relgious must be prosecuted.
Communism is not athiest by design, Russia and China may have been. The reason for this was oppression using irrelgion as a tool. They happen to be athiest and oppressive, none of their regime was driven by athiesm, because athiesm isn't a driving force or philosophy.
Areligion, and anti-religious schools of thought are. Sure. And I'm sure they have their share of fanatics and people who hate religion. But athiesm isn't a religion, and doesn't have a doctrine that leads people to do things. It doesn't have clean hands as a religion, because its not a religion, and in the metaphor it does't even have hands.
Not going to get into a debate here. Move on.
Though I did not say that Atheism is not by nature must prosecute relgion. Just saying it can happen.
I respect everybody regardless of their beliefs...and yes athiesm is a belief...as you they can not prove that god or gods does not exist. As much as people who believe in a religion can't prove a god or gods exist.
But not going to deabate this just expressing my belief. I'll agree to disagree.
Though if what you are saying(related to on topic) is true that Atheism does not have a doctrine...than what Rahadoum has...is not Aetheism...as they do have a doctrine(The Laws of Man).
+1 John
All in all, this actaly makes me like Rahdoum more than before. I'm glad it isn't an "enlightened" athiesm, because that really makes no sense in the game world. I also was a little confussed because when you get into the secifics, my original belief of the country was just filled with holes. I'm also thinking that the Witch wouldn't be allowed either, for the exact same reason as Clerics, (or rather Divine Casters). Actually, I think that woud clear it up, just errata out Cleric and say Divne Casters.I also don't see any reason that diabolists wouldn't be treated the exact same way. Especially if the intent is to not be beholden to a deity (or being) rater than Cleric specifically. Nomatter how deluded or what the idea of Diabolism professes, becomming enslaved to hell is the end result in many ways, and also the path necesitates spreading the "faith", (to make the perfect society).
@ Vargrant-poet and Rocketmail1: Sorry if my belief...and how I define relgion in general angers you or offends you. Really was not the point of my post at all. Just defining my post better.
And I did not say there is no debate on the subject...of course there is....but I personaly don't get into debate about relgion at all. Especialy not over the internet with a bunch of strangers. I said it I personaly was not going to get into a debate about it.
I was more disturbed on how anyone can read the Rahadoum entery and come away with 'enlightened' aetheism.
That's certainly not what the rules on alignment say on page 167 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook:Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as
law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and
organization are paramount. She may believe in personal
order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in
order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable
without being a zealot.Note that last sentence which completely contradicts your post. The way lawful neutral is described by those that group it into the "bad guy" alignment group are most certainly edging into lawful evil. If Rahadoum had been listed as lawful evil, I'd likely never have had my 'misunderstanding' that it was something other than a regime of uninspired intolerance.
An organization is not the same as an individual LN is judge dread, the order of hell knights are LN the pure legion is LN. They do not care why you broke the laws of man, they do not care how or why you justify your power.
You.Broke.The.Law.Period. Why or how matters little, the Laws of Man are the be all end all of Rashadoum. It is order and all that stands between them and the chaos and servitude the divine brings.
LN organizations can be zealots, they are unmoving and uncaring. They are not evil and do not wish you harm, but they also do not care why or how you broke the order of the nation. Look at the hellknights pure zealots about order and Law and firmly LN.
You like many it seems do not understand the depths of LN at all, you can justify almost any act with a LN mindset. Some folks can be LE and giving the orders but a true LN person will carry them out with total faith he is doing what is "right". Good or evil has nothing to do with it.
Make no mistake the government of Rashadoum is LN but they are also zealous about not allowing the divine with the boarders of their land. It is necessary for them be be zealous about the divine, it about destroyed them after all.
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I think that is the heart of the issue. By being a Divine Caster that is NOT beholden to a deity, you have not actually broken the "I am the Law!!!!", so they shouldn't then have an issue. The Law itself is not about Divine magic, but rather to not allow the deities, and thier followers to affect the country. That is exactly how it reads. It specifies Clerics, (and Paldins to a point) classes only, bcause of religion.
But, there are religions that do not have a Patron deity(s), and there are Divine Casters that do not have anything to do with Deities. There are also non-Divine casters that essentually have the same connection with "something" that Clerics do. Monks, Druids, Sorcerers, (Wizards?), Oracles, and other classes all attempt to become or are powered by something beyond "human", so wouldn't that be even worse to a humanist agenda?
First off happy you are rude and like to ignore things you dislike. You do not seem to understand much yourself and are a waste of time for anyone to respond to as once someone does you A: ignore it or B: Curse and throw a tantrum that forces a mod to suppress your post.
You really do not understand LN in the lest.
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That's certainly not what the rules on alignment say on page 167 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Lawful Neutral: A lawful neutral character acts as
law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and
organization are paramount. She may believe in personal
order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in
order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable
without being a zealot.
I think I prefer that the LN nations be predominantly LN, and have plenty of room for not only bad-guys, but also good-guys.
Geb, Cheliax, Nidal, Razmiran and Mediogalti are predominantly LE places, and even there, the occasional good-guy might creep around, so flavoring some of the more evenly balanced nations to make them *also* evil seems unnecessary (and a bit repetitive), since the above-listed LE nations don't seem to be slacking and need the help.
While I'm theist by choice, I could see someone in a fantasy world like Golarion, where the different gods have different roles in the creation myths (or, in many cases, showed up later and have nothing to do with the creation myths), considering the gods nothing more than ridiculously powerful outsiders (which, in the case of Sarenrae, an ascended angel, Asmodeus, an ascended archdevil, and Lamashtu, an ascended demon lord, is pretty much canon), no more worthy of worship or devotion than an efreeti or a modron.
The non-evil resident of the Kingdom of Man, and surely there must be someone who is more philosophically minded and not a anti-religion zealot, may think that the man who chooses to follow an ethical or moral path in his life and *isn't* doing so to avoid the stick of hell, or to be rewarded with the carrot of heaven, has a firmer moral compass than someone who chooses to be good because he wants to partay with Cayden and fears being tortured for all eternity by Zon-Kuthon. The individual who chooses to be good (or behave lawfully) not because he fears torture, or had to be threatened or bribed into it, would, in the Kingdom of Man, might be seen as *more* virtuous than the man who is only good because he fears damnation or craves some selfish reward for this behavior.
On the other side of the coin, the man who embraces evil, cruelty and selfishness, and doesn't do so because Urgathoa said so or Norgorber said so, but just because he *likes being that way,* could be considered to be far more evil than some weak-minded fool who grew up in Nidal and doesn't know any better than to follow the teachings of Zon-Kuthon, or some craven Chel who gives praise to Asmodeus not out of any real devotion, but because it's expected of someone of his station, and he's afraid of being punished for failing to be a proper devil-worshipping zealot.
An active choice to do evil, or good, or uphold the law, or embrace anti-authoritarianism, or to practice a certain faith or to live in a certain country, etc. would likely be considered more meaningful to a Kingdom of Man philosopher than someone who never really gave much thought and went along with the herd, and was more passively evil, or good, or lawful, or chaotic, or devout, or patriotic, without ever really examining and measuring and *choosing* those practices or beliefs.
They might appreciate the phrase, 'the unexamined life is not worth living,' but, not being an actively LE nation, might draw the line before saying, 'the man who refuses to think and choose for himself must die.'
Eh. It's a big map. There are tons of countries on it that do allow rangers, if I want to play a ranger. Some nations exist just to be an example to others of what not to do, and even if Rahadoum's core philosophy was idealistic at the start, I could see it attracting the worst sorts of anti-theists, demon-cultists, etc., seeking to set up shop in a land that isn't dominated by powerful churches.
Hermea, Galt, Rahadoum. It seems that there's a trend in Golarion that good or noble intentions often lead straight to disaster.
I think that is the heart of the issue. By being a Divine Caster that is NOT beholden to a deity, you have not actually broken the "I am the Law!!!!", so they shouldn't then have an issue. The Law itself is not about Divine magic, but rather to not allow the deities, and thier followers to affect the country. That is exactly how it reads. It specifies Clerics, (and Paldins to a point) classes only, bcause of religion.
That is the thing. It is not just clerics or gods but any and everything Divine in nature. They outlaw divine magic and magic items. The first aw is no gods, but it is called the First law, it is not the only Law. Divine magic of any type is not allowed, why have a blackmarket in illegal divine magic if only "cleric" made magic was disallowed.
Let me ask you what someone else ignored {4 times} if your druid is allowed then 1: Why is there zero divine healing in the nation @: why is his magic items and scrolls he makes illegal?
You can not hide they type of magic you cast. One rank in Knowles arcana, religion or spellcraft is all it ever takes to see what kind of magic you cast or magic item you make.
While it is cool James came in, The book is clear on "the divine" not being welcome.
What makes an item divine? Most items can be made by either type of spellcaster and I don't really think that a +3 longsword has a tag saying "100% arcane" on it.
Sigh, could you at lest read the rules before you try to argue something clearly covered within the core rules.
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I think that is the heart of the issue. By being a Divine Caster that is NOT beholden to a deity, you have not actually broken the "I am the Law!!!!", so they shouldn't then have an issue. The Law itself is not about Divine magic, but rather to not allow the deities, and thier followers to affect the country. That is exactly how it reads. It specifies Clerics, (and Paldins to a point) classes only, because of religion.
That is the thing. It is not just clerics or gods but any and everything Divine in nature. They outlaw divine magic and magic items. The first aw is no gods, but it is called the First law, it is not the only Law. Divine magic of any type is not allowed, why have a blackmarket in illegal divine magic if only "cleric" made magic was disallowed.
I am not disagreeing. All I am saying is that is not what is presented in the various books. It says "no clerics", not "no Divine Magic", per se.
Let me ask you what someone else ignored {4 times} if your druid is allowed then 1: Why is there zero divine healing in the nation @: why is his magic items and scrolls he makes illegal?
I am not sure if there is or not. I had always assumed there was, but without the needed (pre-Oracle) Cleric healing, cures, and wisdom, the country simply didn have the ability to survive off of the existing Druid, Bard, and other Divine powers in the long run, and that the deities are also in the process of dropping a fiery mountain on the place for their lack of wisdom. But, I don't know. The way it was presented and the way it is now explained are two different things, though somewhat smilar.
You can not hide they type of magic you cast. One rank in Knowles arcana, religion or spellcraft is all it ever takes to see what kind of magic you cast or magic item you make.
Again though, it sn' presented as all divine magic, but only religious materials. So I can see some scrolls being too religious to exist, but also don't think that Anarchic, Axiomatic, Holy, Unholy, Disruption, Throwing, or Wounding weapons (which require
divine magic) are banned.While it is cool James came in, The book is clear on "the divine" not being welcome.
I disagree. It wasn't clear at al about no Divine Magic, but rather no religion and no deities. Until James came in. I'm going to actualy go reread the book, but that was always the impression I got.
Now that ames came in and explained the intenet, I actualy kind of like the country, and much prefere it that way. Before hand, I thought it was both stupid and honestly an attempt for someone to try to push their own belief into the game.
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From the Inner Sea World Guide, pages 154 - 156
". . . for the so called "Kingdoms of Man" tolerate no devotion to the divine with it's borders. Foreigners must submit to a thorough search by the Pure Legion, . . . who watch for signs of faith in the gods."
"The black markets of Rahadoum do a brisk business in selling and buying divine magical items, . . . Possession of contraband (such as holy texts or symbols) results in heavy fines, . . . while preaching religious doctrine earns imprisonment or worse."
"Over the next 5 years. . . expelled religion from the land. "
"No one denies the existence of the gods, but their aegis comes at too high a price, . . . Still, the Rahadoumi hold to their ancient laws and avoid any contact with religion."
"With no external powers (ie Witch?) to provide spiritual guidance, the Rahadoum are serious about their responsibilitis to themelves and each other."
I think these are the only pertenant things more or less, (minus a few things about it's reations with neighbors). None of them say anything about Divine Magic, but do over and over say Cleric, religion, deity, etc. . .
The PathFinder Gazeteer use the same (sometimes exact) same phrases, as does the Campaign Setting.
Hey, how about a source? Something with a page number might be nice.Sigh, could you at lest read the rules before you try to argue something clearly covered within the core rules.
What makes an item divine? Most items can be made by either type of spellcaster and I don't really think that a +3 longsword has a tag saying "100% arcane" on it.
No source for you.
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I already listed a few magic weapons that "require" a divine spell to craft. There are obviously scrolls, wands, and potions that are divine only. But otherwise, the only real difference between a divine and arcane item is that the divine one will probably have religious themes, glyphs, runes, sayings, depictions, riddles, etc. . . while the arcane one might be more along the lines of of a math or chemestry formula.
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From the Inner Sea World Guide, pages 154 - 156
". . . for the so called "Kingdoms of Man" tolerate no devotion to the divine with it's borders. Foreigners must submit to a thorough search by the Pure Legion, . . . who watch for signs of faith in he gods."
"The black markets of Rahadoum do a brisk business in selling and buying divine magical items, . . . Possession of contraband (such as holy texts or symbols) results in heavy fines, . . . while preaching religious doctrine earns imprisonment or worse."
"Over the next 5 years. . . expelled religion from the land. "
"No one denies the existence of the gods, but their aegis comes at too high a price, . . . Still, the Rahadoumi hold to their ancient laws and avoid any contact with religion."
"With no external powers (ie Witch?) to provide spiritual guidance, the Rahadoum are serious about their responsibilitis to themelves and each other."
I think these are the only pertenant things more or less, (minus a few things about it's reations with neighbors). None of them say anything about Divine Magic, but do over and over say Cleric, religion, deity, etc. . .
The PathFinder Gazeteer use the same (sometimes exact) same phrases, as does the Campaign Setting.
Keep in mind that while as worded it may seem to only be actual clerical god worshipers that should be persecuted in actual practice it would make more sence just to not allow any form of divine magic.
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Keep in mind that while as worded it may seem to only be actual clerical god worshipers that should be persecuted in actual practice it would make more sence just to not allow any form of divine magic.
Because up until today when I read what James said on th matter, I had always assumed, based on what the book actually says, no how itmigt be interpretted, that it was specifically religion and Clericalness. Which made very little sense when you have godless Clerics, godless Druids, godless Paladins/Rangers, Oracles, Arcane casters that essentually have the same issue as god Clerics, as well as other "athiestic" faiths. If it where just Divine Magic in general, that cuts out most of the problems. But it DOES NOT even hint that it is Divine Magic. Just religion and its practice/influence.
However, that would require a deeper thought into the interpretation of the Laws of Man, and it's been clarified that Rahadoum is intended to lack that level of deep though despite its people being described as well-educated and deeply political with a love of rhetoric.
I could potentually see this in game tems as having a decent Int (12+) and a very low Wis (6-10ish), with possibly a moderate Cha (12ish), which might go along witthe lack of "spiritual guidance", Clerics, Rangers, and Druids.
I already listed a few magic weapons that "require" a divine spell to craft.
Not having the spell doesn't stop you from creating it, it just ups the Spellcraft check by +5. That means that just about any item that suggests a divine creator could, in fact, be created by an arcane caster and the reverse is just as true.
True, but the flavor was the same back in the 3.5 days which did mean you had to have that spell. That's also why I put "" around require. :)
@ Vargrant-poet and Rocketmail1: Sorry if my belief...and how I define relgion in general angers you or offends you. Really was not the point of my post at all. Just defining my post better.
And I did not say there is no debate on the subject...of course there is....but I personaly don't get into debate about relgion at all. Especialy not over the internet with a bunch of strangers. I said it I personaly was not going to get into a debate about it.
I was more disturbed on how anyone can read the Rahadoum entery and come away with 'enlightened' aetheism.
Listen. Thats fair. But I never acted angrily, and I'm not offended by your beleifs. You'll notice I never mentioned them once, you could beleive in anything. Thats your perogative.
This isn't actually a debate about religion really. Its about language. Athiest is a word that means someone who doesn't beleive in god/gods/supernatural. It simply can't have a unified force, or doctrine. Other things can and be populated entirely by atheists, i.e. the Laws of Man.
I never once said I thought it was better, I certainly never said that I thought Rahadoum was enlightened, and honestly don't know where you got that or my apparent 'anger' at your beleifs. I just said that your examples of evil real world athiest systems are a misrepresentation because you can't have an athiest system. I never said religious persecution was okay, and I infact very pointedly said anti-religious movements could do as much wrong as fanatic religious ones. I then brought up the fact that Rahadoum isn't atheism anyway, not in the Earth sense.
I like Rahadoum as a concept, but like faith, atheism means something totally different in Golarion. And I certainly don't see them as good because they claim to be athiest, because that has no bearing on a person. Because there are no unifying belifs of athiesm, because athiesm is not a religion.
@Vargrant-poet: Um I took you anger... from you saying to me 'Its all so lovely and grown up.' I was reading that as belittling and insulting...I figured I insulted you...shrug. Also part of that was directed at Rocketmail1 post.
Sure Aetheism is not a unifies belief(never said it was). And it can and has been used to do great evil in this world...as has most relgions. Or are you going to say to me that things like the Crusades or the Spainish Inquistion actualy had anything to do with relgion and not power.(Well except the Childrens Crusade was actualy relgion...at it's dumbest but relgion all the same)? Just like the Communist in Russia and China targeted relgion to gain power by using a aetheistic philosphy.(Well except the Childrens Crusade was actualy relgion...)
Also my response(that you are focusing on) was directly at Happydaysdaze(who has said it was enlightened...and better) who seems to be under the impression that aetheist society can't be evil. Just showing him any 'ism' can be twisted.
Because up until today when I read what James said on th matter, I had always assumed, based on what the book actually says, no how itmigt be interpretted, that it was specifically religion and Clericalness. Which made very little sense when you have godless Clerics, godless Druids, godless Paladins/Rangers, Oracles, Arcane casters that essentually have the same issue as god Clerics, as well as other "athiestic" faiths. If it where just Divine Magic in general, that cuts out most of the problems. But it DOES NOT even hint that it is Divine Magic. Just religion and its practice/influence.
It more then hints , it says "the divine" You like a few others are thinking the first law is the end all be all and that is not the case. The write up says straight up The divine is not allowed and divine magic items are illegal.
Add that to the lack of both healing any any tpe of divine magic the write up talks about and if it was just clerics then it would be a very different place then as it is written.
Although the first law does cut down many arcane casters as well as many do infact worship or at lest respect some gods.
Side note: You can not be a godless cleric in golarion, ever.
It makes it easier to codify within the keywords of the game, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes more sense. If an Oracle can use divine power without having to offer anything whatsoever back to the gods, then there really isn't anything there that the Laws of Man should objectively be opposed to. However, that would require a deeper thought into the interpretation of the Laws of Man, and it's been clarified that Rahadoum is intended to lack that level of deep though despite its...
What I think you are missing is that all divine magic comes from a outside souce. A oracle might not be beholden to a deity...but her power does come from a deity(or a souce) which they would view as corrupt.
It says in the very first paragraph the tolerate no devotion to the divine. A druid is devoted to the divine concept of nature...a paladin is devoted to his code of law and good...a ranger who cast divine spells is like a druid...even a godless cleric is devoted to a concept that is divine in nature as he does get divine spells.
Being 'godless' does not mean you are not devoted to the divine.
Though it would be interesting to see what would happen if Razmiran started to try to convert the nation. They would have a advantage has not actualy being divine. Mmm...that would be a interesting Rahadoum based campaign.
Though it would be interesting to see what would happen if Razmiran started to try to convert the nation. They would have a advantage has not actualy being divine. Mmm...that would be a interesting Rahadoum based campaign.
Well his priests are not divine but they are preaching a religion. Most people do not know he is not a living god. Not like he would be the first of such.
They would have no better luck publicly then any others, although they could hide it easier then say a secret cleric. They could be known arcane casters with underground "temples"
I am thinking most active cults work like that, with few if any divine casters at all.
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This isn't actually a debate about religion really. Its about language. Athiest is a word that means someone who doesn't beleive in god/gods/supernatural. It simply can't have a unified force, or doctrine. Other things can and be populated entirely by atheists, i.e. the Laws of Man.I never once said I thought it was better, I certainly never said that I thought Rahadoum was enlightened, and honestly don't know where you got that or my apparent 'anger' at your beleifs. I just said that your examples of evil real world athiest systems are a misrepresentation because you can't have an athiest system. I never said religious persecution was okay, and I infact very pointedly said anti-religious movements could do as much wrong as fanatic religious ones. I then brought up the fact that Rahadoum isn't atheism anyway, not in the Earth sense.
I like Rahadoum as a concept, but like faith, atheism means something totally different in Golarion. And I certainly don't see them as good because they claim to be athiest, because that has no bearing on a person. Because there are no unifying belifs of athiesm, because athiesm is not a religion.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Sort of. There are unified groups of athiests, and depending on the context, yes athiesm can be a "religion". I'm not saying that to offend you, it is just a fact. See the Humanistic (athiestic) Jews, the Communist movements, and various Humanistic philosophies.
But, the main point is, like you said, when we refer to atheism in the gaming sense, it does mean something very specific. It is imposible for a sane individual to be an athiest in a D&D setting, because athiesm would also include a belief the magic, fey, outsiders, the planes, ghosts, and undead do not exist. Not just that the gods are not worthy of worship, but that literally none of it actually exists. So obviously no one is refering to the real world athiesm for the game.
I don't know if it's official or not, but I've always played that Magic detected as either Arcane or Divine easily when scrutinized by Detect magic.
This is true (for out game) if it's an item or a spell being cast depending on the source.
Divine = cleric, druid, pally, oracle, etc
Arcane = WIzard, Sorcerer, bard, etc.
It's as simple as that.
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It more then hints , it says "the divine" You like a few others are thinking the first law is the end all be all and that is not the case. The write up says straight up The divine is not allowed and divine magic items are illegal.Add that to the lack of both healing any any tpe of divine magic the write up talks about and if it was just clerics then it would be a very different place then as it is written.
Although the first law does cut down many arcane casters as well as many do infact worship or at lest respect some gods.
Side note: You can not be a godless cleric in golarion, ever.
Where does it hint that? The only time it says "divine", the very next sentence clarifies by saying divine writings and holy symbols. Every single other case is specifically about reigion, not divine magic.
You can in fact be a godless Cleric in Golarion. You can't in society play, which is more for "balance" reasons, but there is noting in the setting itself that says you can't. In fact, the Inner Sea Guide has references to godless Clerics. Diabolism, the Empyrial Lords, the Archfiends, th Four Horsemen, and a few others.
I'm not saing you are wrong. What I am saying is nothing in any of the material actually suggests that the conclusion you came to is correct. Nor that that was the intent for the country.
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I am thinking quite the opposite. Rahadoum is a lawful land of well educated people that are big into philosophy, politics, and rhetoric. They are most certainly not described as zealous fanatics, but I would assume that some bad apples exist within the Pure Legion (like the idiot bards in the one story), especially among the 'rednecks' of the nation - a druid or ranger is more likely able to present his case in one courts of the cities than to the backwoods lawman.I think that most likely that those who are zealots and fanatics within the pure legion would not care to make the distinction between those who worship a concept as opposed to those who worship a god or other entity. I would guess if you are wielding divine magic out you go. Either they will put an end to you with the sword, toss you in jail, or toss you across the border.
It is after all the spirit of the law that counts.
Just my two cents.
I apologize for taking so long to reply to your post.
I don’t think that we are very far off in our thinking. One thing that I like about Golaron, is that for the most part, is that things are not completely cut and dried, black and white. While there is good and evil, there also exists shades of grey.
If I may quote G’Kar from Babylon 5….” Things aren’t always what they seem”
In Burnt Offerings of Rise of the Rune Lords, you have a neutral goblin druid.
You have a gold dragon running a eugenics program. Even within the hell knights there are shades, it isn’t lawful evil as you might initially think, but on balance is LN.
Also a while ago I posted a query on the boards asking how the Faith of Sarenrae could flourish in Qadira with all that slavery. James Jacobs posted a very interesting response. He said that the faith was not monolithic, there were different factions and interpetatations, and different digrees of “militism”. He mentioned that the qadiran church of sarenrae was coruped by power but not so much so that it was going to loose it s power, and that if they pushed the issue it would spar a civil war in qadira. There were more details.
Anyways my point is that the tendency it seems in Golaron is that there are shades or digrees.
While it makes sense that people would be more educated in the city as opposed to the countryside, and more “liberal” in the city and more “conservative” in the countryside, I would assume that there are digress of fanaticism. Some are more fanatical and some less rigid. I would guess some people are willing to make a distinction, between a “philosophy’ and the divine like the gods and others not.
One might surmise, that things are not so monolithic. Perhaps, even though all faith is suppressed, there are some who cling secretly and fervently to their faith. Faith is often quite resilient especially under the harshest of conditions.
However James Jacobs has spoken, and he has mentioned that Divine magic is not tolerated in Rhuadom. That doesn’t bother me. It simply makes it more interesting to adventure there when you are a divine caster in Rhaudum.
Where does it hint that? The only time it says "divine", the very next sentence clarifies by saying divine writings and holy symbols. Every single other case is specifically about reigion, not divine magic.
You can in fact be a godless Cleric in Golarion. You can't in society play, which is more for "balance" reasons, but there is noting in the setting itself that says you can't. In fact, the Inner Sea Guide has references to godless Clerics. Diabolism, the Empyrial Lords, the Archfiends, th Four Horsemen, and a few others.
I'm not saing you are wrong. What I am saying is nothing in any of the material actually suggests that the conclusion you came to is correct. Nor that that was the intent for the country.
The books says "The divine are not tolerated", It says divine magic items are outlawed. It has two examples of non magical two examples of contraband, which you bolded, yet did not bold where it said divine magic items where illegal{in the same sentence} It is very clear.
As for clerics but no, you are incorrect. The setting does not have or allow godless clerics, James has cleared this up about 3 dozen times now.I have not read all the new book but we were told many times it would be more clear in this version.
Anyhow officially you can only be a cleric if you have a god or maybe some real being giving you power{ the demi-god to god level Empyrial Lords, the Archfiends, Four Horsemen and demonlords} . Philosophies or concepts can not do this.
"The black markets of Rahadoum do a brisk business in selling and buying divine magical items, . . . Possession of contraband (such as holy texts or symbols) results in heavy fines
Try it like this instead:
"The black markets of Rahadoum do a brisk business in selling and buying divine magical items, . . . Possession of contraband (such as holy texts or symbols) results in heavy fines"
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I understand it. The only thing I am saying is that as it is presented, it doesn't really indicate at all that Divine Magic is outlawed in Rahadoum, just religion, religious items, preaching, and being beholden to a deity/higher power.
Everything else that Set and James are saying about Rahadoum is not in the books, and is not even indicate or hinted at. And I'm fine with that. I honestly wish that this was much mor clear in the Gazeteer, the Inner Sea World Guide, and the Campaign Setting.
Saying that they do a brisk business in divine magical items could mean a lot ofthings. Obviously, if there are no Clerics in the country, there are no Clerics, (and others) to craft them, so they would be rarer and more expensive. NOT because they are outlawed, but simply because they are so limited. Add in the fact that many neighbors might not want to sell their sacred items to a group that on principle has no reverence for them.
(Even though anyone can create hose items now, and they wouldn't really even be "divine").
Or that the assumed flavor of the Divine Magic Items is that they have religious teaching on them, and it is those teaching that are outlawed, not the items themselves, per se.
"The black markets of Rahadoum do a brisk business in selling and buying divine magical items is in the book and indicates any divine items is illegal.
First paragraph says the divine is not welcome. The Every thing we have said is in the books. The only way you could have non clerics allowed would be to ignore most of the other things within the nations write up.
It may not say it the way you like, but it is clear the divine is not welcome or allowed.
Even you agree it says
just religion, religious items, preaching, and being beholden to a deity/higher power.
See the bold part. Every single divine caster of any type does that in one form or another. Every one. In one form or another they each and every one have a faith in something that grants them power.
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The way I meant it was an individual greater being, that might not be a deity. That doesn't cover all Divine Magic at all. If you want to broaden it to mean concepts or forces, to include the Druid, for example, then I guess Rahadoum doesn't have any Arcane casters as well? They draw power from a supernatural force.
Now I understand what you are saying. The book does not support it, and it doesn't hold water is my point.
And at his point I believe we are both just arguing to argue.
That being said, I have been thinking a lot about Rahadoum, and I really don't think that LN fits well at all. I would pose that either N or NE might bemore appropriate. For the country and it's outlook on things. Possibly even CN or CE, honestly. After all, they do strive for a freedom from the deities and from religion. Despite their alleged intilectualism, the they are also described as being very self reliant and the fact that they would rather have everyone suffer and/or die from disease, plague, starvation, etc. . . than allow for faith really doesn't strike me at all as Lawful.
Well in all honesty the divine and those that serve divine masters did more harm to the country and its people then anything the nations ban has done.
You have to look why they took such drastic steps. They are not as a whole evil, but how is what they have done any worse then what has went on in Andoran? Is that nation evil as they are as zealous in their beliefs as those of Rahadoum.
I can't see anything that would make Rahadoum evil, they area land of laws. These laws came about after 60 years of holy wars that ravaged the land and spread death and chaos among the people.
The philosopher Kalim Onaku understood the issue and what had ravaged his homeland and lead it to be something much like Galt. The people themselves took up his cause and when the Laws of men became the Law of the city Azir, it so stabilized the city that it spread across the land, ending decades of war and at long last bringing peace to the region.
The people do as they feel they must, the laws are posted and well known. How is it evil to punish those who willingly break the law and the peace?
I disagree strongly with evil as they are clearly not corrupt and evil like Chilex an really am at a total lose as to how you could see anything chaotic about the government.
It really is a prime example of a Lawful Neutral government. They have strict laws and do not care why you broke them, but they also do not try to enforce them on others or rebuild the world to their view. All they want is to be left in peace. But sadly those touched by the divine can not allow that.
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While I can't argue that they might not try to force them on the world, they very much do try to force it on those in the community. Not all "divine" characters have a choice in the matter. In the case of the Oracle, it is both as natral to them as it is to Sorcerers, and it is something they had forced upon them.
And while they might have laws, that doesn't preclude them from being more chaotically (freedom) aligned. The traditional elf society is chaotic, and has many laws and an order to things. When comparred with Cheliax, (I would say the prime LN, with strong tendencies toward Evil Evil), Rahadoum isn't really that orderly or disciplined. A strong N or NE, in my opinion. And that's all it is, an opinion.
Now I also believe that this is the country, not the majority of individuals in that country, wich is a very different thing.
Removed some posts and their replies. Please post civilly, thank you.
Creative Director
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This isn't quite accurate...[...]
Which also means death sucks for them, since Pharasma is something of a b+!&# in regards to atheism.
Nope... it's not accurate at all.
Pharasma is equally tough on all dead things, be they atheists, faithful, deities, or anything in between or to either side.
Again: if she judges you are to be punished and you were an atheist, you go to the graveyard—otherwise, your soul is set free to wander reality and possibility.
Just out of curosity, could such a being be resurrected/raised?
If so, what might happen if they had found faith, since then?
From what I recall no one who has already been judged can come back, But time is..different on the other side, you could be dead 10 mins or 10'000 years before you are judged.
But as long as they have not been judged and ya can get someone to do it they can be raised like anyone else I would guess.