Reading over Rahadoum in the Inner Sea World Guide, I'm curious as to how the prohibition against the worship of deities applies to philosophies and divine casters that don't worship deities.
For philosophies, such as Diabiolism, the Green Faith, the Prophecies of Kailistrade, and the Whispering Way, it's made clear that these are choices that are made distinct from the worship of a deity, and they can likely be followed by atheists (as defined on page 236 of the Inner Sea World Guide). Would the Laws of Man object to these philosophies? I could see both Diabolism (fully divorced from the worship of Asmodeus) and the Prophecies of Kalistrade having some appeal to some among the Rahadoumi.
Regarding divine casters that don't worship deities, I'm primarily talking about Druids and Rangers. As I understand it, Golarion requires Clerics (and presumably Inquisitors and Paladins) to select deities rather than the "concept" option that otherwise might sidestep the Laws of Man. With Oracles, their magic appears to come from deities even if they offer no worship, so they are likely to be breaking the Laws of Man even without intending to do so. So, to return to the question, would the Laws of Man prohibit an otherwise atheist (again, as defined in the ISWG) Druid or Ranger from operating openly within Rahadoum?
Spirituality is outlawed period. So no, spiritual philosophies that cannot coincide with the Laws of Man (which I believe is a humanist philosophy, IIRC) are illegal. Golarion does NOT require Paladins to select deities, and clerics and inquisitors can venerate a concept such as humanity. So they are fine. Just don't get caught with religious paraphernalia or attempting to spread the good word.
Which also means death sucks for them, since Pharasma is something of a b+#%% in regards to atheism.
Any divine caster of any type get the same treatment as a cleric under the Laws of man.
Most official is the Iconic oracles back story. I mean they can tell what kind of magic you are using, but only have your word its not from a god. A clerics spell and an oracles spell,paladin or rangers for that matter all show up as Divine magic. But you have no way of telling where that divine magic comes from.
Its like having a weapon that killed someone, but only having your word you didn't do the killing.
Well that is not they way it works there. If ya are a divine caster then your an outlaw. YOu can never prove a god does not power you. After all do you not use the very magic of the gods?
Ok tell me who can they tell the diffidence? It all pings divine which is outlawed. We know for a fact they treat oracles a " godless divine caster" just like a cleric.
All they have is your word you do not gain your powers from a god. Yet they show up just like those granted by a god.
|
I think the fact that Rahadoum has no divine healing is important in realizing that either non-deity worshiping healers are extremely rare, or that they are also outlawed in Rahadoum.
From Inner Sea World Guide:
"the so-called “Kingdom of Man” tolerates no devotion to the divine within its borders." (154)
"expelling all forms of religion from the land." (155)
From the Campaign Setting:
Godless Healing
With no magical healing available to the populace, you have
learned a specialized technique to ignore pain.
Prerequisite: Rahadoum affinity.
Benefit: When you have half your total hit points or
fewer, you may attempt a DC 10 Concentration check to heal
yourself of 1d4+1 point of damage per level as a move action.
You may only use this ability once per day.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time
you do, you may heal yourself one additional time per day.
Is there an expanded source on Rahadoum that states that spiritual philosophies are forbidden? I've only seen the ISWG and looked at the Wiki where the first Law of Man states "Let no man be beholden to a god." which doesn't seem to preclude such things as, for example, the Prophecies of Kalistrade.
They acknowledge gods exist. They simply believe they are like the Gods of Olympus-bickering children whose meddling in the affairs of mortals has cost millions of lives. So they banned them all. And then they banned anything that smelled like spiritual hocus-pocus.
And while there are religions in Rahadoum, they have no churches. And they can't get caught. So, you can play a divine caster, just don't get caught or the penalties are severe.
|
|
I wonder how common witches and bards are in Rahadoum, since the Campaign Setting mentioned they don't have magical healing.
Since the APG came out, there are even more options for healing in Rahadoum.
Unfortunately, there are still some spells that are only on cleric lists - and there is no channeling energy at all.
Ok this has been brought up a few times and while somefolks disagree with this, paizo does seem to use these methods at lest in golarion.
Knowledge arcane, will allow ya to pinpoint traditions
Knowledge religion does the same with ecclesiastic tradition
Those two alone allows a simple yes/no.
The ya have Spellcraft which "is used whenever your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell or crafting a magic item comes into question."
Type of casting would fall into that.
Then detect magic allows "magical auras detection" which would also seem to cover arcane/divine auras
Call it however ya like but any low level caster seems to be able to tell if your magic is arcane or divine. At lest in golarion
Nope, witches are arcane casters. No matter if its a cure spell or not it is an arcane spell. Same as bards.
No murky spot at all.
The murky spot is that they get their magic from a patron.Nope, witches are arcane casters. No matter if its a cure spell or not it is an arcane spell. Same as bards.
No murky spot at all.
That has nothing to do with it, the magic is arcane.
As for the source, the core rule book and a bit of common sense. As well as the oracle back story and a few other things buried here or there in the golarion books.
Arcane and divine spells are cast different to such an extent you can't use scrolls of the same spell made by the other type.
The knowledge skills cover traditions{ which would cover both how things are cast as well as other details} and spellcraft clearly calls out it can be used any time "your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell come into question"
You simply can't hide what type of spell you are casting as anyone with any skill at all will easily tell if it is there type or not.
|
Ok this has been brought up a few times and while somefolks disagree with this, paizo does seem to use these methods at lest in golarion.
Knowledge arcane, will allow ya to pinpoint traditions
Knowledge religion does the same with ecclesiastic traditionThose two alone allows a simple yes/no.
The ya have Spellcraft which "is used whenever your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell or crafting a magic item comes into question."
Type of casting would fall into that.
Then detect magic allows "magical auras detection" which would also seem to cover arcane/divine auras
Call it however ya like but any low level caster seems to be able to tell if your magic is arcane or divine. At lest in golarion
Even more efficient there is the "blue eyes" option:
Arcane Sight
School divination; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
...
If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use.
If you are a divine spellcaster and see someone with glowing blue eyes while you are in Rahadoum, run.
|
I think that most likely that those who are zealots and fanatics within the pure legion would not care to make the distinction between those who worship a concept as opposed to those who worship a god or other entity. I would guess if you are wielding divine magic out you go. Either they will put an end to you with the sword, toss you in jail, or toss you across the border.
It is after all the spirit of the law that counts.
Just my two cents.
The Law of the land is very clear. If you cast divine magic of any type, you are not welcome. Only your word says it does not come from the gods, hell it might and they are just not telling you.
Witches do not cast divine magic of any type, so are allowed , druids only can cast divine magic so are Illegal.
It really is that simple, if your magic is divine in any way, you are not welcome. The laws of Man do not allow the divine in any way, shape or form.
No it states no devotion to the divine is allowed, not just to gods. Any divine power or type is "the divine" and not allowed.
Why are you arguing here? We know how it work, we have sources, some you even talked about. Divine spells are "the divine" and not allowed.
There is no loop hole, if you use divine magic of any type you burn just as if you preach the word of the Gods.
Its clear Divine or Arcane. You do nor depend upon the divine, no spell you cast is of the divine. You might work with some great outsider, but many wizards do. So what you have a pardon, it is not of the "divine" it is an arcane helper more or less. No worse then what wizards do.
A witch simply is not of "The divine" and so has little to fear from the laws of man. after all witches can indeed be atheists and are not a divine class.
But if you cast any kind of divine spell you simply have no way to hide it. Your magic is clearly of "the divine" which is not tolerated in any form.
I use the book as my support, ya know the very words they used in the book. I also used the Ionics background which is official. We know how it works, we have been told how it works. There is no loophole for any divine caster. The Divine in all forms are not welcome.
Your view has no support,nor have you been able to produce any. You have an idea " the divine" only counts for clerics, which is not the case as has been shown.
I think witchs would be outcasts...and since this is a land where they consider burning people(or whatever they do to relgious people) cool....I think witches would have to hide. Maybe not because of the specific laws vs relgion...just the general view on witchs held everywhere and this place is definitly intolerant. The fact that a witch can heal I don't think would matter. I mean they kicked out divine magic since even with facing loosing the benefits of it...so I think the believes are stronger than a need.
Though I have a question...does the philosphy of Kalistrade have clerics? It seems to me that cleric of it would be following Abadar...
On your points 1: he was hired to find out the issue, and he told her farther, but he got the hell out of dodge and most likely informed someone in charge.
2: No he assumed she had divine powers, which everyone knows comes from the gods or those who serve the gods.
3: she wished not to die would be my guess. She was powered by the divine, She could never convince anyone the gods did not play a role in that.
You are missing the point, you would need to prove beyond any doubt that the gods had Nothing to do with your power at all on any level. That simply can not be done.
From the nation write up we know they do not have any type of arcane healing, none at all. The divine is not allowed, it does not matter that you claim " Incorrectly as you have been tricked you poor fool" that the gods have nothing to do with you Divine magic. To them this is simply not the case.
If you use divine power, how can they ever know you are not in cahoots with the gods? Only by your word alone. And that simply is not good enough.
For your theory to work the nation would have to change from how it is written.
Your view has no support,nor have you been able to produce any. You have an idea " the divine" only counts for clerics, which is not the case as has been shown.Show me one example of Rahadoum taking exception to the acts of an atheist druid or ranger.
No dude, you show me where they allow them. We no the nation has No divine healing magic so it has no divine casters at all.
The book does not say they disallow only clerics it says " the divine " no " the clerics"
I think witchs would be outcasts...and since this is a land where they consider burning people(or whatever they do to relgious people) cool....I think witches would have to hide. Maybe not because of the specific laws vs relgion...just the general view on witchs held everywhere and this place is definitly intolerant. The fact that a witch can heal I don't think would matter. I mean they kicked out divine magic since even with facing loosing the benefits of it...so I think the believes are stronger than a need.
Witches might be outcasts, but as arcane healers they would be as welcome as bards most places. Witches are not no where near as common as Bards however.
Like most witches they would live away from most people, but I could easily see a witch being the area's healer.
Also I don't think it would matter where the divine comes from...as I saw there issue with relgion to be that belief in external souces cause issues...as a example if they allowed concept cleric in you'll get conflict when two opposed concepts come in contact. Likewise a druid who does not believe in a god will still cause issues because of his belief in regarding nature. A druid would oppose the goverment in exploiting nature as example.
Atleast that is my take on them...though I can't point to a direct souce.
I see a lot of Planescape in Golarion in places. Like when I saw the Hellknights the first thing I thought of was the mercykillers.
I wonder how the Pure Legion would react the the Godsmen (believe we are all gods in a way). I think there was another faction called the Dustmen that didn't believe in the gods at all. The would fit right in I think.
Dude, the freaking Campaign setting. Read it.
You ignoring things you dislike is getting old. Divine is divine and not allowed in any form. They do not have divine healing magic of any type and do not allow "the divine" into the country.
What type of divine really matters little.
If it worked like you said, then they would indeed have divine healing and only disallow clerics. They would have not ran her off thinking she was a "cleric"
Her farther and the bard called her a cleric as she was a divine caster. It makes no difference to the laws of man if you are of the cleric class, they can not see your class. What they can see is divine magic you are using. Magic used by the servants of the gods.
As far as the nation counts divine= gods servants.
"the so-called “Kingdom of Man” tolerates no devotion to the divine within its borders." (154)
"expelling all forms of religion from the land." (155)
These seem to reasonably cover all circumstances. Divine spellcasters are all out, because presumably they need some degree of devotion to "the divine" (which is not just gods) to get their magic. Clerics (or even just worshippers) of philosophies like the green faith are out, because those are religions. Other philosophies that are not religious in nature (like the Laws of Man) are good, though. Witches are okay as long as their patrons aren't divine in some way. The fact that they get arcane magic from their patrons goes a long way towards the idea that they're nondivine.
Jonathon, he has ignored that text about 6 or 7 times now. He is simply looking for a loophole and refuses to except any facts that do not agree with what he wants.
Witches might be outcasts, but as arcane healers they would be as welcome as bards most places. Witches are not no where near as common as Bards however.
Like most witches they would live away from most people, but I could easily see a witch being the area's healer.
I don't know. I guess I see the country more leaning towards more fanatical anti relgion. Again it is how I run them. They have become what they hate sorta thing.
Bards and Wizards are ok because they are seen as Man not needing outside souce of power...that the results of Man's hard work can rival the might of the gods.
Sorcerers and Witchs being empowerd by either a outside souce or due to random birth(or heritage) would be looked down upon or outright lynched depending of how fantical the people are. Because there is no work involved...there is no self-reliance.
If a area is benefiting from a witch...I see them keeping it quite and such.
Sure this is not logical or praticle...but fantatics are really logical or practicle.
Grasnted there is alot of interpertation in my views of the country.