Its been confirmed by James Jacob that the summoner can take any of the base Eidolon forms and the Synthesist retains his own form regardless of the base form of the Eidolon. However, when a Synthesist picks an evolution does it manifest on the Synthesist or on the image of the Eidolon?
Most of the time it is irrelevant; if the Eidolon has wings and is banished the Synthesist loses the evolution either way but in some cases it matters. If the Synthesist selects the large evolution it matters because if only the image of the Eidolon grows in size then the Synthesist continues to use his regular sized gear. If the evolution however makes the Synthesist grow in size then all his regular gear would be the too small because its not a polymorph effect. This would also allow the Synthesist to wield large or huge sized weapons. My best guess would be that only the image of the Eidolon grows in size because having the Synthesist shrinking every time he sleeps and bursting out of his clothes every time he grows would be pretty strange. In the case where only the image of the Eidolon changes size do the Eidolon's natural attacks deal a larger damage die and have reach? Would the image of the Eidolon be able to hold things such as manufactured weapons?
By default, all evolutions chosen by the synthesist apply to the eidolon, the same as any other summoner. If a synthesist wants an evolution to apply to themself, they need to use the Aspect class feature at 10th level (gained as normal by the synthesist).
A synthesist "wears" the eidolon: "Instead of appearing as a separate creature next to the summoner, the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his eidolon." (Ultimate Magic, pg. 80) A synthesist that has an eidolon with the Large evolution would stay the same size; only the eidolon's size would change. Yes, this would allow the eidolon to use large weapons and gain all the other characteristics (reach, increased natural attack damage, CMB bonuses, etc.) of the size increase. The synthesist could carry, but not wield without penalty, large weapons when not fused for use when in "beast mode;" similarly, a large eidolon could use medium weapons with the corresponding penalty. I'd probably rule that when summoning the eidolon, the object(s) you are holding in your hand(s) are then held by the eidolon; in the case of a multi-armed eidolon, the synthesist will have to place the additional weapons nearby for the eidolon to pick up after it appears. To keep the synthesist balanced with the normal summoner, I'd also rule that the synthesist would require the Weapon Training evolution to use weapons when fused.
Pending developer clarification, I'd say that the fused synthesist's AC is that of the eidolon and isn't adjusted by any armor that the synthesist is wearing, based on the sentence quoted above (although the synthesist does not have to remove the armor). I'd probably rule that amulets of natural armor, rings of protection, and spells such as mage armor and shield would apply; amulets and rings because of the eidolon's Link special ability and spells because of the Share Spells special ability. Yes, this would allow the synthesist with a large eidolon to cast enlarge person to become huge when fused; considering that summoners don't get lead blades, it's not much more of a benefit than a 4th level ranger can gain with one spell and a 50 gp potion.
Back to OP, I'll reiterate the question with a few additions:
what form the synthesist will have? Would it be his own bipedal (most of the times) form or the eidolon's one?
And then if he'll retain his bipedal form no matter if your eidolon is quadruped or serpentine, would it be able to use Mount, Pounce, Constrict and other evolutions that requires you to have a specific form?
According to James Jacobs reply you have to think the summoner AS the eidolon...
Would you gain also the free evolutions of the base form of the eidolon? Then, would a bipedal form or a serpentine one give you a base natural attack or do you have to pick them apart?
Back to OP, I'll reiterate the question with a few additions:
what form the synthesist will have? Would it be his own bipedal (most of the times) form or the eidolon's one?And then if he'll retain his bipedal form no matter if your eidolon is quadruped or serpentine, would it be able to use Mount, Pounce, Constrict and other evolutions that requires you to have a specific form?
According to James Jacobs reply you have to think the summoner AS the eidolon...Would you gain also the free evolutions of the base form of the eidolon? Then, would a bipedal form or a serpentine one give you a base natural attack or do you have to pick them apart?
Firstly the eidolon figure is superimposed over of the synthesists body and they now count as one. So the synthesists original body always stays the same, riding somewhere inside the superimposed eidolon body. The synthesist gains all evolutions the eidolon has. Synthesist can choose any eidolon base form and when fused gains the evolutions for that form. So a quadruped fused synthesist has faster base speed and has a bite by default.
Though if you throw paint over the fused eidolon/synthesist, does the synthesist become blind? :p
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Except that's the same language for pretty much all the evoltions, so are you arguing the summoner doesnt, in fact, get any benefits?The evolution gives the Eidolon the bonus to the skill. However, the summoner is not the Eidolon (he's only wearing it) and he does not get to use the Eidolon's skills.
So, no, it probably wouldn't apply.
No. He doesn't. The eidolon has no feats or skills, and the summoner uses its physical abilities. If it has no feats or skills, and you give it a +8 bonus to a skill, then it has a +8 bonus to a skill it cannot roll. "The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own." This lasts until it gains Split Forms, in which case I'd argue that the eidolon gains the synthesists feats and mental ability scores. Otherwise, split forms would split you and your eidolon, and your eidolon would go unconscious from having 0 Wisdom/0 Int/0 Cha and disappear immediately.
It's also a fantastic dip class now, because you can add the bonuses directly to your fighter or barbarian's already potent abilities.When you're synthing with your eidolon, you use its BAB and not your own. Directly RAW. "The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus."
Level 1 synthesist/19 fighter synthing = uses +1 BAB.
Incorrect RAW
OK BAB Synthesis and Multi-classingWe all have read that you replace the synthesist's BAB with your eidolons. However, it DOES NOT SAY your character replaces their BAB with the eidolons. And each class has it's own BAB. Instinctively we just assume *add BAB's together* which is true mechanically but, I yield to the earlier comment on multi-classing. Your character has NO BAB your classes do.
And just to throw some helpful reference quotes and page #'s in there
Page 80 Ultimate Magic
Synthesist (Archetype)
3rd Paragraph 4th Sentence
" The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus and gains the armor and natural armor bonus and modifiers to ability scores "
So I actually retract my earlier statement that I didn't think you could use armor with an Eidolon since it's says "gains vs replace in reference to armor"
Also notice it says the SYNTHESIST uses the eidolon's base attack bonus it does not say " you gain the eidolon's base attack bonus " you're not synthesist you're a character that has classes in synthesist *weird but important distinction*
next we reference the core rule book
Page 30 Core Rule Book
Multi-classing
2nd Paragraph
" For example, let's say a 5th level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level. Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th level fighter and a 1st level wizard, but would still be considered a 6th level character.(His class levels would be 5th and 1st but his total character level is 5th) He keeps all of his bonus feats, grained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st level spells and picks an arcane school. He adds all of his hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throws bonuses from a 1st level wizard on top of those gained from a 5th level fighter*
So two big important call outs in that paragraph. #1. SUCH A CHARACTER WOULD HAVE ABILITIES OF BOTH!!!... Doesn't it seem odd that an eidolon would delete the BAB of an entire separate class? also this goes to my earlier comment that classes are mutually exclusive and don't change each other... there are prestige classes that have synergy that is different
#2. He adds all the hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throws of a 1st level wizard on top of those of a 5th level wizard.
So what's the BAB of synthesist ? Well if his eidolon is on it's 3/4 BAB if it's off it's 1/2 BAB so what ever other class there is on top of that it's still adding it's BAB. So you will have 2 BAB's just as you would if you didn't multi class that depends on whether you eidolon is on or off. However, it states quite clearly that you get BAB from both and nothing in the synthesist says you're BAB changes just the BAB of the synthesist aka class.
Also if you want your 8 skill points just wait till you get to add an evolution to yourself at level at level 10
OK, If I am following Phaedryn correctly. The eidolon only replaces the the BAB of the Synthesist summoner but not from other classes. So the other class's BABs stack on top of eidolon's BAB. The best analogy that I can think of is that it is like a monster with class levels. This makes a lot of sense when compared to the RAW.
OK, so the character's BAB increases with other classes on top of the eidolon systhesist BAB and I assume that this also allows all the abilities from those other classes.
What if I took a couple of dips of Summoner to enhance a monk. The evolutions I take are multiple limbs (arms) which come with hands. Would this mean I would be able to make additional unarmed attacks with those extra arms in addition to flurry?
OK, If I am following Phaedryn correctly. The eidolon only replaces the the BAB of the Synthesist summoner but not from other classes. So the other class's BABs stack on top of eidolon's BAB. The best analogy that I can think of is that it is like a monster with class levels. This makes a lot of sense when compared to the RAW.
OK, so the character's BAB increases with other classes on top of the eidolon systhesist BAB and I assume that this also allows all the abilities from those other classes.
What if I took a couple of dips of Summoner to enhance a monk. The evolutions I take are multiple limbs (arms) which come with hands. Would this mean I would be able to make additional unarmed attacks with those extra arms in addition to flurry?
Flurry has a fixed number of attacks based on level and not the number of limbs used.
Granted but I could have sworn that Flurry of Blows basically were just extra attacks based on level in addition to the character's full unarmed attacks. Wouldn't this imply that the extra limbs normally would allow for extra unarmed attacks for a normal full attack? So while the number of flurries wouldn't be effected the extra attacks should still be there.
Nope. When you flurry, you can use one hand for all the attacks, both hands, your feet and head or even your butt if you're so inclined.
The number of flurry attacks aren't changed by the number of limbs you have. A hekatoncheires monk would have the same number of flurries as anyone else.
Which is why in 3.5 Fiendish Gelatinous cube monks were awesome!Nope. When you flurry, you can use one hand for all the attacks, both hands, your feet and head or even your butt if you're so inclined.
The number of flurry attacks aren't changed by the number of limbs you have. A hekatoncheires monk would have the same number of flurries as anyone else.
Waffles for Varthanna that was awesome ;)
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Back to OP, I'll reiterate the question with a few additions:
what form the synthesist will have? Would it be his own bipedal (most of the times) form or the eidolon's one?And then if he'll retain his bipedal form no matter if your eidolon is quadruped or serpentine, would it be able to use Mount, Pounce, Constrict and other evolutions that requires you to have a specific form?
According to James Jacobs reply you have to think the summoner AS the eidolon...Would you gain also the free evolutions of the base form of the eidolon? Then, would a bipedal form or a serpentine one give you a base natural attack or do you have to pick them apart?
This conversation came up with me a friend too... so what if the synthesist inside had a ring of enlarge person permanency? that's only 8000gp. But then would this make things worse because the Eidolon uses all gear so would it make the large Eidolon huge lol? ... Also someone said correctly this isn't polymorphic effect so you're weapons wouldn't get bigger so even though your Eidolon is large your weapons would be medium. But the Eidolon gains your abilities and feats so if your proficient with medium weapons it is too also you don't need weapons use evolution because that would prove redundant for the first set of arms. I could see the case being made either way for needing weapons training for addition pairs of limbs wielding weapons though....
In reference to base shapes and you... I like to think of eidolons as power suits... sausage links or whatever.. so lets so you take the Quad evolution your wrapped in a nice pony shaped sausage you can bite you can go faster but wait you want to use a weapon or cast a spell... did you take limbs ? I would think that's a required evolution if for synthesist that takes a none biped form if you want to do arm-y things you need arms... I don't relish the idea of being a wizard boy in a womb of a holographic beast shooting spells out of it lol... I like to think your eidolon is more warped around you.. and part of you .. like the gyver ;)
I replied to the wrong quote but the quote I replied to is further down lol sorry just follow along ;)
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Hi
But as a PFS player with a Synthesist character, I would like an official answer to the original post:
Can the Synthesist benefit from the 'Skilled' evolution before 10th level?
Personally I can see both sides to the argument, so haven't taken it (yet), but would really like to boost my UMD next level!
Thanks
Paul H
Hi
But as a PFS player with a Synthesist character, I would like an official answer to the original post:
Can the Synthesist benefit from the 'Skilled' evolution before 10th level?
Personally I can see both sides to the argument, so haven't taken it (yet), but would really like to boost my UMD next level!
Thanks
Paul H
Yes, he can. The synthesist gains the evolutions of the eidolon. Thus, when the eidolon takes that evolution, the synthesist has it too when they are fused.
Since the "limbs (legs)" evolution increases speed, ant the synthesist gains access to all of the eidolon's evolutions, wouldnt this mean that a biped synthesist would have 4 legs and a base speed of 40ft, and a quadraped synthesist would have 6 legs and a base speed of 50ft?