| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
to create a soulless duplicate of his body, into which he
can project his consciousness. As a full-round action,
he may shift his consciousness from his current body to
any one of his available doppelganger simulacra, which
must be on the same plane as the alchemist. If killed in a
simulacrum, he transfers to his own body automatically;
if killed in his own body, he is dead. Unused simulacra
(including his abandoned original body) appear to be
lifeless corpses, though they do not decay. Creating a
duplicate costs 1,000 gp in alchemical materials and
requires 1 week to grow. An alchemist must be at least 10th
level and must have the alchemical simulacrum discovery
before selecting this discovery. The created simulacrum
is a creature, not a supernatural effect.
It seems that you can pay 1000 gold per simulacrum and then just never walk around in your real body, which you keep hidden as well as humanly possible. You could even keep simulacra in multiple locations to save on Teleport and Dimension Door (or if you have plenty of Teleport and Dimension Door available, you can have a lot of them nearby and just keep coming back to the fight and dying multiple times). What am I missing in the wording of this ability? At first I thought maybe your link to the simulacrum could be dispelled or the simulacrum itself could be dispelled, but it says that it "is a creature, not a supernatural effect."
I turn to the forum's wisdom--where's the hidden catch that I can't see here?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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** spoiler omitted **
It seems that you can pay 1000 gold per simulacrum and then just never walk around in your real body, which you keep hidden as well as humanly possible. You could even keep simulacra in multiple locations to save on Teleport and Dimension Door (or if you have plenty of Teleport and Dimension Door available, you can have a lot of them nearby and just keep coming back to the fight and dying multiple times). What am I missing in the wording of this ability? At first I thought maybe your link to the simulacrum could be dispelled or the simulacrum itself could be dispelled, but it says that it "is a creature, not a supernatural effect."
I turn to the forum's wisdom--where's the hidden catch that I can't see here?
Since Doppelganger Simulacrum modifies the standard Alchemical Simulacrum discovery, I believe any doppelgangers you make would function like the simulacra made by lesser simulacrum.
That means half your levels/HD (and because of that half skills, feats, and everything else HD derived), and no magical abilities.
So yeah, you'd be kind of invincible. You also kind of suck. Great for if you know you're walking into a trap though.
also, a cool plot point for a recurring enemy. The party kills the first one and think everything is cool, by the time they get to number 3 or 4 they've figured out that they need to find the real body to do him in permanently.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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also, a cool plot point for a recurring enemy. The party kills the first one and think everything is cool, by the time they get to number 3 or 4 they've figured out that they need to find the real body to do him in permanently.
And the Real McCoy is a lot tougher than the doppelgangers they've been fighting. I like it!
** spoiler omitted **
It seems that you can pay 1000 gold per simulacrum and then just never walk around in your real body, which you keep hidden as well as humanly possible. You could even keep simulacra in multiple locations to save on Teleport and Dimension Door (or if you have plenty of Teleport and Dimension Door available, you can have a lot of them nearby and just keep coming back to the fight and dying multiple times). What am I missing in the wording of this ability? At first I thought maybe your link to the simulacrum could be dispelled or the simulacrum itself could be dispelled, but it says that it "is a creature, not a supernatural effect."
I turn to the forum's wisdom--where's the hidden catch that I can't see here?
Since Doppelganger Simulacrum modifies the standard Alchemical Simulacrum discovery, I believe any doppelgangers you make would function like the simulacra made by lesser simulacrum.
That means half your levels/HD (and because of that half skills, feats, and everything else HD derived), and no magical abilities.
So yeah, you'd be kind of invincible. You also kind of suck. Great for if you know you're walking into a trap though.
Hmm, I see where it requires Alchemical Simulacrum, but not where it says that it modifies it. It does say you're putting your own consciousness in the simulacrum, so it seems like you should be able to brew and use extracts with your full alchemist level, throw full power bombs, etc.
I don't mind using houserules in my games, though, so if I allow thise discovery, I'll just rule it that way. And I'll bet you something like that was intended, even if it doesn't say so. Thanks!
EDIT: I do fear this discovery in PFS, though. Barring an official clarification to the effect of the half power, I'm guessing it will be banned or nerfed to make the simulacrum last only until the end of the adventure.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Well it does specifically say they're simulacrums, and simulacrums are always half-power. As I read it, it just lets you create simulacrums that look like you and that you can ride around in.
If it wanted to give you something above and beyond normal simulacrum abilities, I figure it would have specified so in the power.
Wouldn't hurt to see a clarification though, I guess.
Edit: Simulacra, I mean.
Well it does specifically say they're simulacrums, and simulacrums are always half-power. As I read it, it just lets you create simulacrums that look like you and that you can ride around in.
If it wanted to give you something above and beyond normal simulacrum abilities, I figure it would have specified so in the power.
Wouldn't hurt to see a clarification though, I guess.
Edit: Simulacra, I mean.
I thought simulacrum was just the flavor term for that type of created creature--I didn't realize that it was a 'game term' or keyword, so to speak that indicates half power in all ways. If so, that definitely handles it though (and again, even if not, I'll just yoink this idea for my game whether it's intended or not, so I'm satisfied).
I imagine that even if they have half your hit points, you would be able to use your full mental capacity in them, though (extracts, bombs, spells if you were multiclassed for some reason, etc), since you were the one riding inside.
Yeah, it seems to me that because it´s ´your consciousness riding in them´,
while the HPs would be half (or roughly half),
BAB, skills, Feats, Class Abilities should all be the same,
for Saves, Will Save for sure, I´m not sure if you could claim Relex/Fort are tied to your own body...
Probably not, since if you are Reincarnated you keep the same Reflex/Fort base Saves,
only any physical stat adjustments are applied on top.
Kind of wierd, given the flak some Superstar entries got for the idea of people ghost-riding an avatar as their primary mode of interaction / Class power.
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The doppelganger simulacra work like the simulacrum spell, so they're half power compared to the alchemist. Some italics in that discovery would clarify that.
The doppelganger simulacra work like the simulacrum spell, so they're half power compared to the alchemist. Some italics in that discovery would clarify that.
Still very useful for all kinds of reasons, but not so much in combat.
It's more for a "mastermind" sort of villain that wants to be hands-on but not put himself at risk, like Arnim Zola.
The doppelganger simulacra work like the simulacrum spell, so they're half power compared to the alchemist. Some italics in that discovery would clarify that.
Excellent, thank you! I agree that italics would have made it much clearer.
On the other hand, it's still a confusing topic which I think could use some additional clarification--this leads to some other questions. If you could help with that, Sean, I'd greatly appreciate it! Here goes:
Does the doppelganger simulacrum have its own (inferior) set of extracts and bombs per day, or does it use your own set of extracts per day? So for instance, suppose an 18th-level alchemist named Dante is currently residing in one of her doppelganger simulacra. Per your clarification, she cannot use any extracts except those that are 3rd-level or lower, since the simulacrum is 9th level. Also her bombs do 5d6+Int bonus damage. Suppose she uses 9 bombs and 3 3rd-level extracts (which only have an effective caster level of 9) in the simulacrum body and then returns to her original body. Does she still have all her bombs and 3rd-level extracts? I previously thought that she was using her own resources regardless of her body, but I would currently assume that she does still have them available (since if she were spending her own extracts and bombs, they would have a greater effect). If she is spending her own resources and not the simulacrum's own personal pool of resources, yet still receiving the halved effect, it probably needs to be clarified in its own line of text (I'm not saying that any choice here would be unreasonable, just that it's confusing and would need to be spelled out in a bit more detail).
If I'm wrong and she does lose resources for a lesser effect, is there any reason aside from a slight gold cost increase that she should ever make doppelganger simulacra instead of just using the Greater Alchemical Simulacrum discovery instead to make independent copies that are equally powerful and don't use up her own resources for the day or her actions?
Bonus questions:
If the doppelgangers share resources with Dante instead of having their own pool--If Dante was instead an Alchemist10/Barbarian8, do the doppelganger simulacra each have their own pool of rage rounds per day, or does Dante use up her own rage rounds inside the simulacra? That seems like a body-based thing. What about spells per day if she's multiclassed into a caster? Smites or lay on hands if she is also a paladin? Monk ki points, etc.
Ability scores and conditions--presumably she keeps her own mental ability scores and uses the physical scores of the simulacra, since she is essentially projecting her consciousness. If she makes her simulacra while a young adult and then ages to venerable, when she shifts to a simulacrum, presumably she gets the higher mental ability scores but not the lower physical scores. What if she is affected by magic that alters her mind? Presumably if she was Confused or Shaken or had mental ability penalties from Touch of Idiocy and switched bodies, she would still be Confused or Shaken or suffering from mental ability penalties. For the reverse--can she be affected by Fox's Cunning or Good Hope and then shift to a simulacrum and keep the intelligence bonus or the morale bonus? What about drink a cognatogen and then shift to a simulacrum. Does she keep the mental enhancement? Does she lose the physical penalty from the cognatogen? It would seem that she clearly can avoid the lasting physical penalty from the end of the cognatogen, at least. Is the full-round action to switch bodies purely mental? Can you, for instance, use it when grappled or when your physical body is denied action (say magically held but not stunned) in order to escape?
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Assuming the Alchemist could switch between these simaclum across any distance, which I have no idea on. A single such alchemist would be an invaluable resource for a kingdom to transfer information.
Simaclum A is on the battlefront. SImaclum B is standing next to the king. Every few moments alchemist switches bodies to update the king on how the battle is going. Limited only by what the alchemist can remember it'd be an excellent message service.
Not to mention the diplomatic possibilities. The alchemist could send his simaclum into an enemies court on a diplomatic mission without fear of being killed. Its a lot easier than having a live diplomat. Also enemy kings could use the alchemist as a super fast messenger to do the negotiations from each of their respective seats of power.
Wow. Even more reason to get the simulacrum spell clarified. I see few spells as vague as that one. Like awaken and reincarnate, everyone (even within the same group at times) runs it differently because they are so ill explained.
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The doppelganger simulacra work like the simulacrum spell, so they're half power compared to the alchemist. Some italics in that discovery would clarify that.
Ability scores and conditions--presumably she keeps her own mental ability scores and uses the physical scores of the simulacra, since she is essentially projecting her consciousness. If she makes her simulacra while a young adult and then ages to venerable, when she shifts to a simulacrum, presumably she gets the higher mental ability scores but not the lower physical scores.
To add to Rogue Eidolon questions, the level of the doppelganger simulacra is fixed or it will vary with the alchemist level?
to make it clearer: if the simulacra was made at 14th level, it will stay forever at 7th level or, if the alchemist has raised his level to 16th the simulacra will be 8th level when inhabitated by the alchemist?
This
A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.
seem to point to a fixed level, but then it require extra book keeping to differentiate the different versions and the applicable stats at the time of creation.
To add confusion, as the simulacra has half the levels it probably has less characteristics increases for the levels. How we will proceed in removing them?
I started a thread on this very same topic, without realizing there already was one. Anywho, one oddity I see is with the pricing. Producing a doppelganger simulacrum costs a flat 1,000 gp to produce. By contrast, using the lesser/greater alchemical simulacrum discoveries costs 100 gp per Hit Dice. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a DS follow that pricing method?
I'll also chime in that the simulacrum spell could use a serious revamping. For example, are simulacri immortal? Past Paizo adventures, and even WotC stuff, suggests that they are more like golems than living creatures. For example...
** spoiler omitted **
Simulacrums are treated as normal creatures in every way, except for what's written in the spell descriptions. As such, they still need to drink, eat, and breath as normal for their creature type. I dunno about aging though.
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Simulacrums are treated as normal creatures in every way, except for what's written in the spell descriptions. As such, they still need to drink, eat, and breath as normal for their creature type. I dunno about aging though.I started a thread on this very same topic, without realizing there already was one. Anywho, one oddity I see is with the pricing. Producing a doppelganger simulacrum costs a flat 1,000 gp to produce. By contrast, using the lesser/greater alchemical simulacrum discoveries costs 100 gp per Hit Dice. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a DS follow that pricing method?
I'll also chime in that the simulacrum spell could use a serious revamping. For example, are simulacri immortal? Past Paizo adventures, and even WotC stuff, suggests that they are more like golems than living creatures. For example...
** spoiler omitted **
"Simulacrum creates an illusory [illusion: shadow by the way] duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."
I fail to see where it say that it need to eat or anything.
It is a illusion with some physical support (ice and snow) and some shadow energy to make it move and react, not a living being.
"complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."
This point even more to a lack of biology. Something that can't sel heal and need a laboratory to be repaired don't sound as something that need to eat.
At most it will need to get its fuel tank refilled.
Simulacrums are treated as normal creatures in every way, except for what's written in the spell descriptions. As such, they still need to drink, eat, and breath as normal for their creature type. I dunno about aging though.I started a thread on this very same topic, without realizing there already was one. Anywho, one oddity I see is with the pricing. Producing a doppelganger simulacrum costs a flat 1,000 gp to produce. By contrast, using the lesser/greater alchemical simulacrum discoveries costs 100 gp per Hit Dice. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a DS follow that pricing method?
I'll also chime in that the simulacrum spell could use a serious revamping. For example, are simulacri immortal? Past Paizo adventures, and even WotC stuff, suggests that they are more like golems than living creatures. For example...
** spoiler omitted **
"Simulacrum creates an illusory [illusion: shadow by the way] duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."
I fail to see where it say that it need to eat or anything.
It is a illusion with some physical support (ice and snow) and some shadow energy to make it move and react, not a living being.
"complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."
This point even more to a lack of biology. Something that can't sel heal and need a laboratory to be repaired don't sound as something that need to eat.
At most it will need to get its fuel tank refilled.
+1 and...
complex’s constant renewal of air and a magical matrix
sustained those within without the need to eat, drink,
or even sleep.
Running them as normal creatures (minus the spell exceptions) is the only way you really CAN run them. Assuming they are constructs opens up a HUGE can of worms on how they might be handled from a mechanics perspective.
In any event, I've started long threads on the topic and this is more or less what the developers said to do (it really is the easiest route).
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Running them as normal creatures (minus the spell exceptions) is the only way you really CAN run them. Assuming they are constructs opens up a HUGE can of worms on how they might be handled from a mechanics perspective.
In any event, I've started long threads on the topic and this is more or less what the developers said to do (it really is the easiest route).
I have tried to find that long thread in your post history.
No luck, you cite a ruling but I can't find the relevant thread.Can you link it?
Running them as normal creatures (minus the spell exceptions) is the only way you really CAN run them. Assuming they are constructs opens up a HUGE can of worms on how they might be handled from a mechanics perspective.
In any event, I've started long threads on the topic and this is more or less what the developers said to do (it really is the easiest route).
I have tried to find that long thread in your post history.
No luck, you cite a ruling but I can't find the relevant thread.
Can you link it?
Been a while, but I will look it up.
EDIT: Here's the main thread which covers a lot of complex issues and even a few corner cases. This spell has caused me such distress over the years, I actually looked up all the simulacrum questions I could find on the boards, and compiled a list for the developers...AND THEY ACTUALLY ANSWERED ALL OF THEM!
PAIZO ROCKS!!!
Further down in the thread, James also goes on to say that incorporeal creatures are NOT valid options for simulacrum since you need a physical ice/snow sculpture to serve as the base.
Now that we have all these simulacrum based abilities popping up everywhere, would you all be kind enough to follow the above link to James' post and FAQ it?
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Thanks, bookmarked.
Not finding it I had repeated some of the questions to the JJ answers thread.
Let's see if I am in time for deleting them.
16 minutes too late :(
I will take JJ replies under consideration when houseruling the spell.
If my players start to use it regularly I will try preparing a "simulacron" template to apply to the creatures.
I have a quick note/question about the alchemical simulacrum. Unlike the magic one it specifies it's crafted from flesh and not ice/snow/shadow (Or at least it decays into that which seems to indicate it's made from it), so would that make it need food/water/air? Would it age because of that?
The other question is that the doppleganger simulacrum discovery says that if killed in a simulacra your mind flits back to your body and if killed in your body then you just die. However, there's nothing in there to say what happens when your body is killed and you're NOT in your body at the time. It only specifically calls out you dying if you are in your body when it's killed.
Another question is: you have to be on the same plane to transfer into a D.S...but what happens if, say, your Simulacrum is hit with a Prismatic spray and sent to another dimension? Are you shunted back to your body? Do you instantly die? Are you OK until you're killed in that dimension and THEN die? Or are you sent back to your body if the simulacrum dies in the other dimension?
And I would like to second Rogue Eidolon's question. Does the Doppleganger Simulacrum use it's own daily resources or the original's to use Extracts, Bombs, and Mutagens? This is critical to know, since if it uses its own "So many per day", then an Alchemist could effectively get nearly unlimited half-strength Extracts, Bombs, and Mutagens by simply creating hundreds of Simulacra and swapping to a new one whenever he runs out of extracts, and if he uses his own pool of extracts, they should be more powerful.
I would also note that it has been years since this discussion,and the online reference STILL doesn't say that Doppleganger Simulacrum works like the simulacrum spell and makes a half level duplicate.
The way it's worded, it is its own ability that just happens to use the word Simulacrum in the description, and is only related to Greater Alchemical Simulacrum (which DOES state that it duplicates Simulacrum) by sharing prerequisites.
Its much longer (Seven days instead of one) "growing time" would seem to indicate that it is a "more perfect" version and, in fact, seems far more like a permanent version of the "Twin Form" extract (with the additional side effect that your "other body" appears dead and can't take any actions, rather than simply being dazed, and one of the two is definitely your "real body" instead of it not mattering which is which til the spell ends) than a simple copy of the Simulacrum spell.
I would definitely make the cost "1000 Gold pieces per level of the alchemist" instead of just 1000 Gold Pieces though, if it acted more like Twin Form, and probably have the Alchemist gain a couple of temporary negative levels when switching to a simulacrum until he "got used to" that body.
Hmn...no post editing capability? Ah well...After a bit more research, it looks like insufficient research was done before this ability was created.
The reason a Simulacrum is half the level of the original is that it is NOT the original. The "soul" animating it is an imperfect copy, not the original mind.
Since this ability is the actual soul of the alchemist occupying a duplicate of its original body, I see no justification for the "Half level" thing at all. Temporary negative levels would make some sense (the character didn't die (yet) and it's not a false copy of the mind but the actual original, but it makes sense that swapping bodies might take some adjustment time)
In its mechanic, it seems far more similar to Magic Jar or, as I mentioned, a permanent version of Twin Form than an actual Simulacrum spell. It should probably be more expensive (one clue is that the given cost is identical to the "Clone" spell, though that spell is more like a raise dead.) The minimum discovery level for this should be higher (probably 14 instead of 10, to bring it more in line with Magic Jar.)
To curb the "I'm a lich...with alchemy!" factor, I'd limit the maximum number of active Doppleganger bodies to 1 plus the alchemist's INT modifier. That way, you don't have alchemists littering the campaign map with a new doppleganger body every week.
Kindly note that you can't make a 'young duplicate' of something, including yourself.
So if you're venerable and you make a simulacarum, it's a duplicate of you. You don't get to choose to make a young version, that's not part of the spell.
And it already gets your equivalent mental stats.
You're essentially a ride along directing it on what to do, but it has none of your actual power. Just because you're steering the car doesn't mean the car is suddenly 3 levels higher.
==Aelryinth
Kindly note that you can't make a 'young duplicate' of something, including yourself.
So if you're venerable and you make a simulacarum, it's a duplicate of you. You don't get to choose to make a young version, that's not part of the spell.
And it already gets your equivalent mental stats.
You're essentially a ride along directing it on what to do, but it has none of your actual power. Just because you're steering the car doesn't mean the car is suddenly 3 levels higher.
You are misreading something I think. I don't think anyone said anything about making "Young" versions of yourself (and alchemists can become immortal anyway once they hit level 20 by taking that Grand Discovery as their level 20 pick.)
To refute your car analogy, riding that car doesn't suddenly make YOU 5-10 levels LOWER, either. The Alchemist is still an alchemist, and its HIS mind in a copy of HIS body, not an imperfect "Fake soul" like with the Simulacrum spell. There is no mechanic in the discovery description that says you suddenly become a level zero chump and forget how to mix a martini because your mind is in another body.
Compare it with Magic Jar. It's essentially the same effect with dimension-wide range, and a much longer effective casting time. I'd raise the minimum level of the ability and probably also increase the cost to make the "Spare body" and limit the maximum number of dopplegangers you can have lying around, but losing more levels than you lose from dying and being raised makes zero sense.
The Alchemist would, however, need to buy a new supply of alchemical ingredients and gear to use while occupying the Doppleganger. And if he IS leaving his body somewhere, he had better make sure it's well guarded.
Since it is a level 10 minimum discovery, it may make more sense to have THOSE dopplegangers be level 1 with no magical abilities (Just add the following text to the description)
"Doppleganger Simulacra are fragile and incapable of using the alchemist's personal magical energy. Thus, they are level one, and cannot create Extracts, Bombs, or Mutagens ,though they could use Extracts mixed by the alchemist, provided the alchemist has the "Imbue" discovery."
Then add a new discovery, like so:
Duplicate Body (Su): The alchemist learns how to create an exact copy of his body, a soulless duplicate, into which he can project his consciousness. As a full-round action, he may shift his consciousness from his current body to his duplicate body, which must be on the same plane as the alchemist at the time of the transfer. While in a duplicate body, he has 2 temporary negative levels that expire at a rate of 1 per day (the DC for the save to recover them is 10 if there are any penalties due to other effects) and are applied each time he transfers into a duplicate body (but not on returning to his original body, and they are not cumulative, it is a total of 2 negative levels each time he enters a duplicate body.) If killed in a duplicate while on the same plane as his original body, he transfers to his own body automatically; if killed in his duplicate while it is on another plane, his soul will return to his body after 1D4 days and gain 2 temporary negative levels (DC 20 to get rid of these, due to the trauma of dying in a duplicate body.) If killed in his own body, he is dead. Unused duplicates (including his abandoned original body) appear to be lifeless corpses, though they do not decay. Creating a duplicate costs 10,000 gp in alchemical materials and requires 1 month to grow. The alchemist can create a total number of duplicate bodies equal to 1 plus his INT modifier Any additional duplicates made cause one of his other duplicate bodies to become permanently inert. An alchemist must be at least 16th level and must have the Doppleganger Simulacrum discovery before selecting this discovery. The created Dupicate is a creature, not a supernatural effect.