I'm running the pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path. i'm still in the opening stages of the campaign (they're on book #2 at this point) and one of my players is a necromancer. she's made it clear that at some point or another she'd like to have her character at least research the topic of lichdom for herself, and i'm somewhat at a loss on how to handle it. I don't want to flatly deny the request, since it's a viable path for a necromancer specialist to take...but at the same time I don't want to make it easy either.
now...as anyone who's played the Kingmaker series knows there IS a certain point in the series where it is possible to find at least some scattered notes on all kinds of necromancy spells. so inserting the basic knowledge of the lichdom process wouldn't be out of line. so that's not an issue. my question is how would I go about applying the template to a player character in a somewhat reasonable and yet terrifying manner?
thoughts/suggestions/comments?
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I'm running the pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path. i'm still in the opening stages of the campaign (they're on book #2 at this point) and one of my players is a necromancer. she's made it clear that at some point or another she'd like to have her character at least research the topic of lichdom for herself, and i'm somewhat at a loss on how to handle it. I don't want to flatly deny the request, since it's a viable path for a necromancer specialist to take...but at the same time I don't want to make it easy either.
now...as anyone who's played the Kingmaker series knows there IS a certain point in the series where it is possible to find at least some scattered notes on all kinds of necromancy spells. so inserting the basic knowledge of the lichdom process wouldn't be out of line. so that's not an issue. my question is how would I go about applying the template to a player character in a somewhat reasonable and yet terrifying manner?
thoughts/suggestions/comments?
Well have fun with that. Trust me mate, this isnt a fun thing. You have to understand that when you apply the template to a PC, it will inevitably give that player a very big advantage. The other thing to keep in mind is whether or not you would like to have someone running a lich in your game. The player is going to be very self absorbed, its a lich afterall. Its hard to DM this type of situation but if you are up to it and it wont bugger up your game have fun.
-V-
Keep in mind that the process of becoming a lich is long, arduous, and very expensive. Even if that character found notes suggesting it, as the Bestiary suggests, a great number of components or tasks would be necessary to complete it. The important thing to note is how this would affect the activities of the other party members; it is very unlikely that she would just happen upon everything she needs to become one, so she would probably have to leave the party. Actually becoming a lich happens in a very short period, assuming it is successful.
I would allow it though, provided I could come up with a decently difficult questline, accompanied by the possibility of failure regardless of success.
I'm running the pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path. i'm still in the opening stages of the campaign (they're on book #2 at this point) and one of my players is a necromancer. she's made it clear that at some point or another she'd like to have her character at least research the topic of lichdom for herself, and i'm somewhat at a loss on how to handle it. I don't want to flatly deny the request, since it's a viable path for a necromancer specialist to take...but at the same time I don't want to make it easy either.
now...as anyone who's played the Kingmaker series knows there IS a certain point in the series where it is possible to find at least some scattered notes on all kinds of necromancy spells. so inserting the basic knowledge of the lichdom process wouldn't be out of line. so that's not an issue. my question is how would I go about applying the template to a player character in a somewhat reasonable and yet terrifying manner?
thoughts/suggestions/comments?
My advice would be to make a capstone ability she obtains at the end of the campaign, and have her work towards it between now and then.
You might also consider "comparable alternatives" to lichdom, although starting out as a necromancer is leading the way.
I would suggest an XP cost (on medium progression) of 150,000 XP in addition to the 120,000 gp - plus down time to craft the phylactery - stipulated for becoming a lich.
One of my players in Kingmaker is becoming a home-brewed LN alternative to a lich. Same concept (rejuvenating immortal) and costs, totally different execution.
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The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.
While being a Lich would certainly be likely to improve trade between their country and say Geb, the amount of time and money that goes into becoming something like a lich should be well outside the boundaries of your character at any point save towards the end of the campaign if you choose to allow it. It's a great goal but well outside of the average player character's allotment of wealth until something probably 16+. Just look at the phylactery's cost alone.
120k is quite the sum of money for one lone necromancer to have on hand at any level, even if your allowing them to raid their kingdom's treasury. It's an excellent goal for the character to someday aspire too, but that doesn't mean that aspiration ever has to actually be met in the campaign.
My advice would be to make a capstone ability she obtains at the end of the campaign, and have her work towards it between now and then.
^This. Maybe even a proto-lich prestige class of some kind. The phylactery alone should be uber-costly.
The bigger question is how the other PCs would feel about having an undead party member. If they think it's great, then there's no problem. Let her work towards it, slowly and expensively.
She should be aware that even with illusion or other magic, the fact that she's undead will not escape certain other beings who will want to destroy her automatically. She should avoid devotees of Pharasma, most good-aligned clerics, and most paladins. And most commoners.
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Ive done this a few times, but never in PF. In 3.5, aside from all the rp requirements, it took a minimume of 1/2 a year (of uninterupted) crafting just to make the item. I think PF has changed that, but it still takes a very long time. Also, in PF, each Lich's formula, ritual, process, etc. . . is unique to that indivual. So finding notes may or may not help them at all.
I personally, would be very disappointed if that was a capstone. Being a Lich, in the game, is probably what they are looking for. Not afterwards. And being that they need to be at least 13th level before they can even begin the process, they really will not have much game time with it anyway, I don't believe. But I have never played that AP.
An alternative you might be able to do, if you are worried about the player getting a large jump in power, might be to parcel the Lich template out in portions, similar to the 3.5 Dread Necromancer.
Maybe start with DR 1, and a +2 to one stat, and increase it very other level. Add in a little NA, and then start with some of the abilities. Let the player(s) have to deal with entire towns running in fear as they enter looking for supplies (Fear Aura) or realize that they might accidentally permanently paralyze anyone whose hand they shake. Or when they are getting low on HP, people had better never, ever, ever, take them to the local good hearted healer. Or that they might be out of the game for a week if they drop to 0 HP, (not _their Con).
I Don't know anything about the kingmaker AP (NOR do I want to, we plan on running that in the near future...) But unless the campaign is designed to be MASSIVELY long, I don't see it happening.
I would encourage the player to roleplay out his goals... but if the AP (like most campaigns) only encompass a few months or a year or two... it won't happen. Though they can find clues and research to develop post campaign story...
As a side note... even if you are WILLING to let a 'lich' be a PC... The process to do it, is the kind of things that only wizards of MASSIVE power are able to accomplish, So at the very least... It should require a level 9 spell... or maybe even a Couple of them... meaning the character would be level 15+ before it's an issue.
As a DM, I would NEVER let them 'find' the scroll or wand either.. they have to RESEARCH it and cast it themselves... So that should help with the power balance a bit.
The Evil thing is something I would push too. I would be very leary of tossing out that stipulation. There may be SOME good Undead... but they are meant to be RARE... Just having a PC be one because they want to... should be a concern. The material components and ritual should be such that only the vilest wizards actually go THROUGH with it... (Steal the life essence of 9 small children, Desecrate a holy object, SOMETHING that makes 'lich' more stereo-typically evil than just finding a fountain of youth or something...
Van richten's guide to the lich (or Monster hunters compendium 2) deals with 'lich origins' pretty good and is pretty fun reading...
Lichdom is NOT something to enter into lightly. At the least when you finally perform the ritual, you have to make a save of some sort, and failure means dead. Dead forever. No ressurect or reincarnate... just... Gone.
If the Player actually wants to follow that path, I'd say go for it! Could be a lot of fun!
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I'm running the pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path. i'm still in the opening stages of the campaign (they're on book #2 at this point) and one of my players is a necromancer. she's made it clear that at some point or another she'd like to have her character at least research the topic of lichdom for herself, and i'm somewhat at a loss on how to handle it. I don't want to flatly deny the request, since it's a viable path for a necromancer specialist to take...but at the same time I don't want to make it easy either.
now...as anyone who's played the Kingmaker series knows there IS a certain point in the series where it is possible to find at least some scattered notes on all kinds of necromancy spells. so inserting the basic knowledge of the lichdom process wouldn't be out of line. so that's not an issue. my question is how would I go about applying the template to a player character in a somewhat reasonable and yet terrifying manner?
thoughts/suggestions/comments?
Sounds pretty awesome. I'd recommend helping your player along. Work in a few hints here and there. Maybe scraps and small trinkets, left behind that form some sort of grander piece (like a set of artistic maps that actually fit together to form words in the elven language detailing the secrets for eternal unlife when brought together and red by the light of a blue flame).
If she's already showing interest at this level, see if you can drop perhaps one small clue per session. Maybe early on, have her find mention of a source of a method to become a lich, or a source that tell of a source that knows the method. Perhaps get her in touch with an antique dealer who helps her find the pieces that she needs to bring the instructions together. Then during each session she could track the progress being made on finding certain pieces. Meanwhile, you can work other pieces of the ultimate goal into the various adventures during the game. Perhaps a BBEG in the adventure path has an onyx orb on a cane found in a treasure heap that could be converted into a focus during the creation of a phylactery, etc.
You could even set it up so that she was essentially spending the vast majority of her incoming wealth on it as she was getting it. Literally finding and assembling the pieces of knowledge to get it to work.
Honestly, you and her should have some fun with it. If it doesn't seem like she's having fun/taking the bait, perhaps try something a bit different. Honestly, being a lich doesn't make you all that much stronger than a regular necromancer.
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As to your question, yes, I've had player characters in my groups that not only tried but did become liches. My younger brother played a sorcerer kobold who eventually became a lich. Heck, I have a paladin around 6th level (currently on Hiatus due to time constraints for gaming) that is a Paladin of Wee Jass (goddess of Death and Magic) who's going to become a Lich Paladin (Archlich/Baelnorn, AKA Good Lich, see Monsters of Faerun or Libris Mortis).
Liches are pretty cool, and can shift the dynamic of the game slightly when you are playing one. The main shifts come in the fact the character is effectively immortal (honestly, really, killing a lich requires the lich to be dirt-stupid).
Here's a few things worth keeping in mind when dealing with lich PCs.
As A GM, Don't be Afraid of Immortality or Liches
Likewise, disruption and disruptive weapon are bad. A disruption weapon basically means you have a 1/20 chance of being destroyed with every hit. A disruptive weapon spell means it's a Save or Die with every hit, even at higher levels (CL 20 means you are always vulnerable).
And while not all liches are evil in D&D, the smite evil/good of a Paladin or Antipaladin/Blackguard will hurt like a mother. Being undead, you will suffer x2 the effects. This means that that level 15 Paladin/Antipaladin with the bow just got a +8 to hit you, and deals +30 damage with every shot. You're probably going to be sitting the game out for 1d10 days real soon.
Their cold and electricity immunity is nice, but by this level energy resistance stops 30 points of damage per shot, and blasting is pretty weak anyway. Honestly, short of being useful against a vrock, or a blue/white dragon, this probably won't come up much unless casters are always tossing around cone of cold for some reason.
Their +5 natural armor bonus is actually very nice. This will mean you have a pretty solid armor class. This is a very nice feature, and you should appreciate it as a lich. Many experienced players will tell you, however, that if this benefit comes up too often and you're not playing a melee-lich, then you are probably doing something wrong as a spellcaster.
Meanwhile, their negative energy touch is useful for healing undead, but the damage it deals is too low to be a considerable threat to any enemy worth their experience points. It caps at 1d8+10 damage (14.5 average) and as a natural attack (like the paralyzing touch) cannot get iterative attacks due to your Base Attack Bonus. While you could attack with both in the same round, you must ask yourself why.
This does have the benefit of allowing you to heal yourself, and undead minions while out of combat. You can heal about 140 damage per minute at 20th level, which is pretty good. However, it's virtually useless in combat as it takes a full-round action for what amounts to a very minor heal.
The lich's Fear Aura is a fun and flavorful ability. It's fun when used amidst a lot of incredibly weak NPCs. You should see if your GM will allow you to suppress this ability as a standard action as it can actually get annoying. It can be used as a decent debuff if you find yourself within 60 ft of an enemy (shaken gives a -2 to checks) and they fail their saves. Otherwise, fairly cool ability.
A Necromancer wizard receives Control Undead (a channel energy ability) however, and may have invested more heavily into Charisma. If she was hoping to become undead, she may have left her Constitution low in hopes of a better reward down the line. If this is the case, then allow her to enjoy it.
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There's of course countless options and ways to make this fun. Hopefully this will get you started for some ideas. My next post will offer some build ideas.
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You might want to check out Savage Progressions on the Wizards site. They've got some ideas that might work.
This came up in another post a while back. I would give the player the opportunity to become a lich, but I would not say yes you can do it. I would devise a method that included arcane secrets, complex magical and chemical formulas, rituals and so on.
Knowledge checks, and spellcraft checks would be make throughout the process. If they jack up one part of the research part they may or may not even know it, and that would make the DC's for the later parts higher, or even impossible depending on how hard core you want to be.
They might have to deal with dragons, evil outsiders and other powerful beings to get some of the secrets. The hard part would be the convincing of the party to accompany them on sidequest for something they don't benefit from.
Being a lich offers a lot of things that if were to be replicated with magic items would easily surpass the 1 million gp mark, and that is why I would make it hard, but if you are going to just hand it over* I would suggest the other players get something too just to be fair.
By hand it over I mean make the player go through the process, but secretly your answer is already yes so they can't really fail.
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Lich Strategies
In my last post, I discussed some of the benefits and drawbacks of lichdom. I didn't touch on the fact it generally costs about 1/7th your total WBL, but I figured that was obvious to anyone wanting to be a Lich.
In this post, I'll be discussing some options for liches, both traditional (such as the iconic spellcaster lich) to the more exotic (lich-knights).
Traditional Lich - AKA - The Caster
A traditional lich is probably the simplest lich of them all. For all intents and purposes, this is a normal spellcaster that has invested 120k gold pieces and some of their time into getting a few special abilities which are of minor to moderate value, and get to congratulate themselves on being effectively immortal.
However, the traditional lich doesn't get to play around with their lich powers too much without limiting their own effectiveness. Many of the abilities that liches get that are offensive require the lich to be within 60ft to touch range. Most Wizards and Sorcerers will wish to avoid this option in favor of using more magic. Some of the defensive abilities are nice, but the main benefit you get is +2 to your favorite casting stat (effectively +1 save DC).
In other words, play as you would a normal wizard, sorcerer, or witch. Not much has changed.
Divine Liches - AKA - Clerics and Oracles
Clerical liches are as varied as clerics are. Many of them are effectively a hybrid between traditional caster liches, and the more martial lich-knights (described below). Their main benefits is the ability to wear heavier armors, which combos nicely with their defensive lich abilities. Most clerical liches can heal themselves via Channel Energy, spells, and so forth. Generally sporting more hit points and armor, Clerical liches can step into the fray a bit more readily and try to use their fear and paralyzing touch powers more readily.
Oracles, like sorcerers, can enjoy a variety of amazing benefits from their Charisma. Most Oracle abilities, including spells, rely on Charisma, while it also gives them more hit points and higher fortitude saves. Some Oracle powers allow them to apply their Charisma modifiers to other stats, making this an appealing choice. Their high Charisma also means their racial powers will be hard to resist (by 20th level, your paralyzing touch should be around DC 30.
[b]Lich-Knights - AKA - Paladins, Rangers, Bards, Druids, Hybrids[/i]
Lich Knights are perhaps one of the most interesting variations of lich that you can play. They are effectively liches that emphasis diving into melee combat and using a combination of martial skill and magical abilities, combined with their racial powers, to make their presence known on the front-lines of battle.
In Core Pathfinder, paladins do not have this option due to alignment restrictions. If you are using non-core material, then Archliches and Baelnorn open up Good-Aligned lichdom for Paladins. Otherwise, Antipaladins are the only paladins who can achieve lich-status. Paladins have a lot to enjoy about being liches. They are already heavily Charisma focused, and being able to apply their Charisma to their Hit Points and Fortitude saves can be a very nice boot to a Paladin-Tank who has focused on their defenses. Being on the front-lines, a Paladin tank can comfortably attempt a paralyzing touch from time to time. Likewise, as written, their Lay on Hands allows them to heal themselves (even though they are undead) in combat. If you have the option for good-liches, this means an undead paladin can continue to heal himself and his allies with Lay on Hands, or continue to Channel Positive Energy (always choosing to ignore himself). Out of combat, negative energy touch means he can let the party cleric have a break from licking his wounds. Fear Aura is fun alongside Aura of Courage, as you are frightening to your enemies and bolstering to your allies.
AntiPaladins, however, are also frightening liches. Fear Aura combos amazingly well with Aura of Despair, as it can be a quick -4 to all saving throws for enemies near you. That will make your spellcaster and monk friends very, very happy. They are otherwise just like normal paladins, except they get a number of additional spells that they can use in conjunction, including desecrate which gives them significant short-term buffs.
Rangers are likewise very good, if unusual candidates for lich-knights. They are a full base attack bonus class that, as spellcasters, qualify for lichdom. The lich's bonuses to Stealth and Perception make them naturally suited as a fine ranger option, and their natural resilience can help the ranger survive a bit better in direct melee, despite his lighter armors.
Paladins, Antipaladins, and Rangers must wait until level 14 before becoming liches, because of their delayed spellcasting. It's the earliest that they can enter into lichdom, which means that it's generally a late-game consideration. If non-core material is allowed, the Practiced Spellcaster feat can give them an effective caster level equal to their actual level (Instead of =Level-3, it'd just be =Level). This is a bit of a feat tax for what is otherwise just speeding up the process, and you'll likely already need to take Craft Wondrous Item. You will want to keep as many feats as you can for fighting.
In all of these cases, the character has a full base attack and should have the potential for a large amount of hit points due to their class HD + potential Charisma. The natural armor helps them to melee more effectively without getting hurt. In all cases, the melee lich should strive to buff and then jump into combat, wielding a weapon and touch attacks. The main strategy with melee liches is to be resilient (natural armor + damage reductions) and get off as many paralyzing touches as you can in hopes that they fail their saves and drop. Healing between fights saves your healer resources.
Bards make excellent Lich-Knights, and a lich's racial skill modifiers suit them well. Bards are of course hybrids, and also enjoy a high Charisma. The high charisma, moderate base attack, natural armor + light armor, and special abilities allow the bard to be an excellent light melee unit who uses spells like mirror image and blur, combined with bardic music to fight in melee. Ideally, you might try fighting with a single weapon and making secondary touch attacks (at -5) to land a Paralysis while mixing it up.
Druids are, perhaps, one of the most often overlooked candidates for lichdom (the first I ever saw was in the Red Hand of Doom adventure path). Druids are amazing for lichdom. You can get some very interesting effects this way. Their touch attacks are also very fun to pull off while wild-shaped into a bear. For the most part, it plays like a normal druid, but enjoys a noticeable buff to several skills, gains a nice touch attack, a fun fear aura, and some resiliency.
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Sorry for the short post. I mostly just touched on a few ideas. It's late and I'm pretty tired, so I'm kind of pushing through them. Maybe I'll throw together a guide for each lich-class individually, soonish.
This came up in another post a while back. I would give the player the opportunity to become a lich, but I would not say yes you can do it. I would devise a method that included arcane secrets, complex magical and chemical formulas, rituals and so on.
Knowledge checks, and spellcraft checks would be make throughout the process. If they jack up one part of the research part they may or may not even know it, and that would make the DC's for the later parts higher, or even impossible depending on how hard core you want to be.
They might have to deal with dragons, evil outsiders and other powerful beings to get some of the secrets. The hard part would be the convincing of the party to accompany them on sidequest for something they don't benefit from.
Being a lich offers a lot of things that if were to be replicated with magic items would easily surpass the 1 million gp mark, and that is why I would make it hard, but if you are going to just hand it over* I would suggest the other players get something too just to be fair.
By hand it over I mean make the player go through the process, but secretly your answer is already yes so they can't really fail.
Yes, side quests for all!
Depending on your group's dynamics, the opportunity for a side-quest involving treasures could always be welcome. If there is nothing immediately demanding their attention ("Uh, we'd really love to go with you Sheila, but the hobgoblins are burning down Thorpsevill, and we kinda need to go over there"), it would be a great opportunity to get in a few more good adventuring stories, bond a bit, and have some fun.
I had a witch-themed sorcerer try to become a lich. At around 10th-level my party betrayed me because they all feared the terrible power it would bring me.
Jerks. Not everyone is going to be ready for such a thing, so check with the other players and see what they think before moving forward.
PCs are given really unlimited time to build their kingdom so the character would have years to work on researching their phylactery. It costs 120,000 GP so the earliest a character could actually finish making it would be level 15.
The Kingmaker AP is known for allowing players to ignore WBL. I am sure dedicated players could that 120,000 by 11th level. Since there is no time line the crafting feats would definitely allow it. Borrow some gp from your buddies when it is time to make the phylactery, and pay them back in magic items that are made a half price.
I had a witch-themed sorcerer try to become a lich. At around 10th-level my party betrayed me because they all feared the terrible power it would bring me.
Jerks. Not everyone is going to be ready for such a thing, so check with the other players and see what they think before moving forward.
That sucked. They should have said something up front if they had an issue with it.
Ive done this a few times, but never in PF. In 3.5, aside from all the rp requirements, it took a minimume of 1/2 a year (of uninterupted) crafting just to make the item. I think PF has changed that, but it still takes a very long time. Also, in PF, each Lich's formula, ritual, process, etc. . . is unique to that indivual. So finding notes may or may not help them at all.
I personally, would be very disappointed if that was a capstone. Being a Lich, in the game, is probably what they are looking for. Not afterwards. And being that they need to be at least 13th level before they can even begin the process, they really will not have much game time with it anyway, I don't believe. But I have never played that AP.
An alternative you might be able to do, if you are worried about the player getting a large jump in power, might be to parcel the Lich template out in portions, similar to the 3.5 Dread Necromancer.
Maybe start with DR 1, and a +2 to one stat, and increase it very other level. Add in a little NA, and then start with some of the abilities. Let the player(s) have to deal with entire towns running in fear as they enter looking for supplies (Fear Aura) or realize that they might accidentally permanently paralyze anyone whose hand they shake. Or when they are getting low on HP, people had better never, ever, ever, take them to the local good hearted healer. Or that they might be out of the game for a week if they drop to 0 HP, (not _their Con).
If she wants to play as a lich as opposed to capstone, a progression such as this is how I would handle it.
That sucked. They should have said something up front if they had an issue with it.I had a witch-themed sorcerer try to become a lich. At around 10th-level my party betrayed me because they all feared the terrible power it would bring me.
Jerks. Not everyone is going to be ready for such a thing, so check with the other players and see what they think before moving forward.
Well from what I recall on his first post about that game it was
1: An evil based game2: The end goal was always stated to be pvp like with one of the party coming out on top{by taking out the others} as the campaign ending.
If you recall man this is the pc from his thread about the plan to leave his soul to the care of his imp familiar.
Giving that info is it a shock the other players took him out before he got a massive power boost?
As for the topic, I would allow it but make it very hard, involving side quests and massive research and down time as well as crafting. I might even make that pc bow out of one of the Ap parts while she was crafting or whatever so her massive power gain won't be to out of line with the party power level.
i am a lich in our current kingmaker adventure path, and a necromancer though the template is great any dm can easily alter some parts of the adventure path to suit the research around this goal.
My character was given a lot of information and some tools to help with this in one of the adventures.
My necromancer was level 12 when he finished the goal.
If you are running a low buy ap then the template might become a big deal, with a higher point buy i do not think it will unbalance it to much.
I would allow the player to TRY to complete her goal, if she manages to do it great for her, if she fails her loss.
However let her know if she goes trough with it and fails there might be noway back.
My Lich hid his form of undeath with a ring of chameleon power and a regular mask+robe.
He also used none detection spells and later mindblank to prevent divinations.
That sucked. They should have said something up front if they had an issue with it.I had a witch-themed sorcerer try to become a lich. At around 10th-level my party betrayed me because they all feared the terrible power it would bring me.
Jerks. Not everyone is going to be ready for such a thing, so check with the other players and see what they think before moving forward.
Well from what I recall on his first post about that game it was
1: An evil based game
2: The end goal was always stated to be pvp like with one of the party coming out on top{by taking out the others} as the campaign ending.If you recall man this is the pc from his thread about the plan to leave his soul to the care of his imp familiar.
Giving that info is it a shock the other players took him out before he got a massive power boost?
I forgot about that, lol. In character I would have killed him too. Now that you have jogged my memory I think RD was surprised that he was not trusted.
As for the topic, I would allow it but make it very hard, involving side quests and massive research and down time as well as crafting. I might even make that pc bow out of one of the Ap parts while she was crafting or whatever so her massive power gain won't be to out of line with the party power level.
It seems we agree.
@ToZ: I agree about Ashiel's post. I can't believe I never though to the concept of an antipaladin lich before. I guess it is because I never think of them as casters.
@Ashiel: I will be sure to give you much credit when I use this. Don't expect any cookies or anything else nice from the players though.
I forgot about that, lol. In character I would have killed him too. Now that you have jogged my memory I think RD was surprised that he was not trusted.That sucked. They should have said something up front if they had an issue with it.I had a witch-themed sorcerer try to become a lich. At around 10th-level my party betrayed me because they all feared the terrible power it would bring me.
Jerks. Not everyone is going to be ready for such a thing, so check with the other players and see what they think before moving forward.
Well from what I recall on his first post about that game it was
1: An evil based game
2: The end goal was always stated to be pvp like with one of the party coming out on top{by taking out the others} as the campaign ending.If you recall man this is the pc from his thread about the plan to leave his soul to the care of his imp familiar.
Giving that info is it a shock the other players took him out before he got a massive power boost?
The root of the problem was that there was an agreement that the inter-party PvP would be held off via roleplay until the campaign's end. That way, nobody would have their fun spoiled until the campaign was practically over anyways. Unfortunately, I was the only one who remembered the agreement. One other player stood up for me, claiming he remembered it as well, but he might have just been being nice cause no one else, not even the GM, recalled agreeing to such a thing.
I ended up dropping out due to playstyle differences (I just don't do well in PvP games). The campaign, unsurprisingly, fell apart soon after due to PvP conflicts.
Like. Duh.
Oh well. If you are going to play a lich, get everyone onboard first. Causes too much trouble otherwise.
I forgot about that, lol. In character I would have killed him too. Now that you have jogged my memory I think RD was surprised that he was not trusted.That sucked. They should have said something up front if they had an issue with it.I had a witch-themed sorcerer try to become a lich. At around 10th-level my party betrayed me because they all feared the terrible power it would bring me.
Jerks. Not everyone is going to be ready for such a thing, so check with the other players and see what they think before moving forward.
Well from what I recall on his first post about that game it was
1: An evil based game
2: The end goal was always stated to be pvp like with one of the party coming out on top{by taking out the others} as the campaign ending.If you recall man this is the pc from his thread about the plan to leave his soul to the care of his imp familiar.
Giving that info is it a shock the other players took him out before he got a massive power boost?
PVP requires a lot of non-metagaming. Of course I am expecting they would have jumped the caster before going after each other in the last fight.
The root of the problem was that there was an agreement that the inter-party PvP would be held off via roleplay until the campaign's end. That way, nobody would have their fun spoiled until the campaign was practically over anyways. Unfortunately, I was the only one who remembered the agreement. One other player stood up for me, claiming he remembered it as well, but he might have just been being nice cause no one else, not even the GM, recalled agreeing to such a thing.
I ended up dropping out due to playstyle differences (I just don't do well in PvP games). The campaign, unsurprisingly, fell apart soon after due to PvP conflicts.
Like. Duh.
Oh well. If you are going to play a lich, get everyone onboard first. Causes too much trouble otherwise.
The root of the problem was that there was an agreement that the inter-party PvP would be held off via roleplay until the campaign's end. That way, nobody would have their fun spoiled until the campaign was practically over anyways. Unfortunately, I was the only one who remembered the agreement. One other player stood up for me, claiming he remembered it as well, but he might have just been being nice cause no one else, not even the GM, recalled agreeing to such a thing.
No they prob recalled, but why allow you to get to the point where it was imposable to win? Your were saying , "hey guys you stay here , I'll come pack way stronger then you and oh yeah be unkillable."
Ya kinda moved the time table up. I would have taken you out as well, agreement or no as you changed the rules so to speak
I forgot about that, lol. In character I would have killed him too. Now that you have jogged my memory I think RD was surprised that he was not trusted.
Well it was a subject that ended up with me, you zauri and cold napalm all in total agreement. An event rare enough that I recalled it.
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@ToZ: I agree about Ashiel's post. I can't believe I never though to the concept of an antipaladin lich before. I guess it is because I never think of them as casters.
My players are NOT going to enjoy the recurring 'death knight' enemy they have in their future. >:)
Also, please don't turn this thread into another argument about RD's gaming group.
Well it was a subject that ended up with me, you zauri and cold napalm all in total agreement. An event rare enough that I recalled it.
I forgot about that, lol. In character I would have killed him too. Now that you have jogged my memory I think RD was surprised that he was not trusted.
True.
@ToZ: I am just passing time. The original thread is pretty much done. I am just trying to decide which monster I will use for the Lich/anti-pally since I need a natural attack to deliver that paralyzing touch IIRC unless it is it's own natural attack. I will have to check the rules. Making dropping it into Carrion Crown will be a good idea.
Lich Strategies
In my last post, I discussed some of the benefits and drawbacks of lichdom. I didn't touch on the fact it generally costs about 1/7th your total WBL, but I figured that was obvious to anyone wanting to be a Lich.In this post, I'll be discussing some options for liches, both traditional (such as the iconic spellcaster lich) to the more exotic (lich-knights).
Traditional Lich - AKA - The Caster
A traditional lich is probably the simplest lich of them all. For all intents and purposes, this is a normal spellcaster that has invested 120k gold pieces and some of their time into getting a few special abilities which are of minor to moderate value, and get to congratulate themselves on being effectively immortal.However, the traditional lich doesn't get to play around with their lich powers too much without limiting their own effectiveness. Many of the abilities that liches get that are offensive require the lich to be within 60ft to touch range. Most Wizards and Sorcerers will wish to avoid this option in favor of using more magic. Some of the defensive abilities are nice, but the main benefit you get is +2 to your favorite casting stat (effectively +1 save DC).
In other words, play as you would a normal wizard, sorcerer, or witch. Not much has changed.
Divine Liches - AKA - Clerics and Oracles
Clerical liches are as varied as clerics are. Many of them are effectively a hybrid between traditional caster liches, and the more martial lich-knights (described below). Their main benefits is the ability to wear heavier armors, which combos nicely with their defensive lich abilities. Most clerical liches can heal themselves via Channel Energy, spells, and so forth. Generally sporting more hit points and armor, Clerical liches can step into the fray a bit more readily and try to use their fear and...
Awesome writeup!
Perhaps build a "lich" prestige class or series of alternate class features? Maybe sacrificing caster level in the process?
+1
The basic problem about using templates on players is that they get a huge update out of a sudden, very hard to balance. Templates are nice to apply on NPCs but just not made for PCs. While it is somewhat logic for liches to get many powers when casting the ritual with the horcrux, it's no nice game flow, a progressive gaining of power like a prestige class allows is better.
Another issue is, while liches get no disadvantages by the RAW (or are there? I'm not to sure about that), there should be some like "needs to feed on the energy of living beings" and/or "has some problems with sunlight" and maybe "has a degenerated soul and tends to be cruel", I mean there are reasons why paladins and inquisitors hunt down liches. This can be a major problem in your campaign - prepare to put some work into that.
Myself, I played with one guy who wanted his cleric of gozreh to become a master smith, living with hundred followers in some religious compound and then become a lich - would have been funny ^^ (instead the campaign ended by TPK)
oh and he channeled positive.
Dotting for Ashiel's awesome breakdown.
@ToZ: I agree about Ashiel's post. I can't believe I never though to the concept of an antipaladin lich before. I guess it is because I never think of them as casters.
@Ashiel: I will be sure to give you much credit when I use this. Don't expect any cookies or anything else nice from the players though.
Awesome writeup!
Thanks guys, I appreciate it.
Honestly, I'll try to get a more comprehensive guide up a bit later. Anyone know a good place to do so? If not, I'll probably write it on Giant In The Playground and link it over this way.Either way, it'll have to wait just a little while longer, as I have a game scheduled for today. The party in that game consists of a homebrew psychic warrior that creates weapons from nothing, a barbarian, and a blackguard (antipaladin). The antipaladin is definitely planning on becoming undead (either a lich or a mummy, my lil' brother hasn't decided which yet).
They're currently being stalked by a group of assassins (warrior 2 / sorcerer 1, with a +CL feat which allows them to use shocking grasp for 3d6 damage, and they get a +1 per die from their bloodline powers. Combined with masterwork cloaks, skill focus Stealth, and a few ranks in Stealth, along with a few utility scrolls, they make excellent hit and run spellsassins. :P).
Now they just have to figure out what the assassins are after...
Also, please don't turn this thread into another argument about RD's gaming group.
Sorry man, that was me mostly kinda didn't mean to derail but eh sometimes I bait easy...or ramble..yeah I ramble alot, wondering mind and all. I really need to chain that back up.
wow - this thread spawned a more active discussion than I had expected. Ashiel - AWESOME write up! you've given me quite a lot to ponder. And everyone else who had input on side quests and the like...great ideas! i'll crib some notes from this thread and consider what to do down the road.
I have to admit, on one hand i'm somewhat leary of the thought of a PC lich...but on the other hand, I think it might have some interesting role playing opportunities. esp since the proto-lich isn't the ruler of the kingdom, she's the kingdom magister (rather obvious, but still).
and there's also a blight druid in the party. she MAY express an interest in the process as well. but honestly, the druid's plans seem to focus on building a blight shrine and doing...bad things...to the forests.
Perhaps build a "lich" prestige class or series of alternate class features? Maybe sacrificing caster level in the process?
That's what I'd go with. I'm not a big fan of prestige classes in general, but becoming a lich screams "prestige class" to me (cf. the Walker in the Waste prestige class from Sandstorm and the Dread Necromancer class from Heroes of Horror).
hmm...another thing to consider is that the blight druid AND the necromancer have 'big plans' for that dead unicorn they found in the woods.
that worries me somewhat. i'm not sure what sort of custom undead they could build out of it.
I would (and have) allow a player to become a Lich.
Personally I don't think being a lich is anything worth worrying about, moreso now in Pathfinder then it was in 3.X edition. Between the cost of becoming one and the added weaknesses of being undead it balances out pretty closely in my opinion.
Having it become a side quest sounds like a good idea, maybe a chance to include a bit of the Whispering Way and Tar-Baphon
I played a vampire in a game or two... and they were a lot of fun! They still had enough weaknesses so he WAS killable... but if I'm going to be honest, he was MUCH more powerful than the other players...
Fortunately, I was able to keep what he was a secret by downplaying all his abilities to 'normal human wizard' and they never found out... Otherwise it COULD have gotten less fun for the others.
I'm not sure how the lich was changed in pathfinder... but in 2E they had a few MASSIVE drawbacks that also limit their 'immortality'
1) Liches are REALLY little more than 'possessing spirits'. Their soul is tied not to the body, but the amulet (or whatever). When they get 'killed' they get booted back to the phylactery for however long it is... Depends on the rules you go by...
2) When their body is destroyed... they need a NEW one. This can take a LONG time to find... There is a limited range (don't remember how far...) that the soul can LOOK for one. (I THINK it said someone had to be touching it... So the goal was to make it such an AWESOME gem... that SOMEONE would always have it nearby... Within 60' of the phylactery... Then the new body slowly changes to look like the original.
3)This makes the phlyactery as much a prison as anything else. If you hide TOOOOO well... On the moon for instance... Then there had BETTER be a stash of ready made bodies nearby for you to inhabit. Or else you just banished yourself...
4)While we're on the moon... You may not need to breathe... but you DO need Verbal components to CAST Teleport... so unless you've got Silent Spell set up... you're not getting BACK... Same with underwater... or in a solid bedrock... or wherever else you wnat to hide your stuff...
Regardless... if the 'immortal' player 'dies' in the game... he MAY still be out of the campaign... unless he's taken appropriate measures Dead or gone, it'll amount to the same thing.
If you have access to the 3.5 book Sandstorm, there is a prestige class in there that turns you into a "Dry Lich," which is a desert-like Lich. I recommend taking a look at that and maybe adapting it.
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I'm running the pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path. i'm still in the opening stages of the campaign (they're on book #2 at this point) and one of my players is a necromancer. she's made it clear that at some point or another she'd like to have her character at least research the topic of lichdom for herself, and i'm somewhat at a loss on how to handle it. I don't want to flatly deny the request, since it's a viable path for a necromancer specialist to take...but at the same time I don't want to make it easy either.
now...as anyone who's played the Kingmaker series knows there IS a certain point in the series where it is possible to find at least some scattered notes on all kinds of necromancy spells. so inserting the basic knowledge of the lichdom process wouldn't be out of line. so that's not an issue. my question is how would I go about applying the template to a player character in a somewhat reasonable and yet terrifying manner?
thoughts/suggestions/comments?
My suggestion would be let the player do it, but make them play a back-up character for two levels while the main character is off becoming a lich.
Then, when that player comes back, they will be the same "functional" level as the rest of the party, and the time researching the Lich transition will be accounted for in game.
The key is not to let this side project derail the rest of the group.
If you have access to the 3.5 book Sandstorm, there is a prestige class in there that turns you into a "Dry Lich," which is a desert-like Lich. I recommend taking a look at that and maybe adapting it.
Ahhh, the infamous dry lich. The only listed creature with a very high CR that is completely destroyed by a 0-level spell. ☺
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This is how I would play it:
- the suite of abilities, immunities, etc that a Liche gains is comparable to what a high level PC with a variety of expensive magic items might posses. Think of the template in terms of replacing a lot of magical tat the player might otherwise have at a high level. Make sure the player knows this beforehand, and that they may have to sacrifice some powerful items as part of the Ascension ritual.
- the terrible potion which a prospective liche must imbibe as part of the ascension should contain ingredients from lots of different kinds of undead: everything from a zombie's brain to a wight's fangs to a bottled ghost to the blood of a vampire. I might also include a bit of powdered bone from another Liche. :)
- The process of constructing the phylactery and preparing the ritual should require that the prospective liche commit some truly horrific acts. Multiuple murders, at the very least. Horrible blood sacrifices. Perhaps the corruption or desecration of a holy site, or the destruction of a holy relic. Grave robbing. The killing of a good outsider. Not easy things.
- For each horrible act that must be committed, there should be someone or some group that will actively work to prevent the act... or avenge the act! Liches should make a lot of enemies in the course of the ascension.
- The ascension ritual should be terribly risky. Make it a skill challenge with multiple points of potential failure... and failure has terrible consequences.
If the PC manages to get through all of that, then they get their lichedom, and may the Gods have mercy on their soul!
If you have access to the 3.5 book Sandstorm, there is a prestige class in there that turns you into a "Dry Lich," which is a desert-like Lich. I recommend taking a look at that and maybe adapting it.Ahhh, the infamous dry lich. The only listed creature with a very high CR that is completely destroyed by a 0-level spell. ☺
Yeah, they are funny like that. It's not a perfect solution, but it's the easiest way I know of to become a lich-type without a big headache. And with a prestige class, the character doesn't have to wander off to parts unknown or make a back-up character. He can continue advancing with the party, while spending his evenings doing whatever it is Lich-aspirants do.
This is how I would play it:
- the suite of abilities, immunities, etc that a Liche gains is comparable to what a high level PC with a variety of expensive magic items might posses. Think of the template in terms of replacing a lot of magical tat the player might otherwise have at a high level. Make sure the player knows this beforehand, and that they may have to sacrifice some powerful items as part of the Ascension ritual.
- the terrible potion which a prospective liche must imbibe as part of the ascension should contain ingredients from lots of different kinds of undead: everything from a zombie's brain to a wight's fangs to a bottled ghost to the blood of a vampire. I might also include a bit of powdered bone from another Liche. :)
- The process of constructing the phylactery and preparing the ritual should require that the prospective liche commit some truly horrific acts. Multiuple murders, at the very least. Horrible blood sacrifices. Perhaps the corruption or desecration of a holy site, or the destruction of a holy relic. Grave robbing. The killing of a good outsider. Not easy things.
- For each horrible act that must be committed, there should be someone or some group that will actively work to prevent the act... or avenge the act! Liches should make a lot of enemies in the course of the ascension.
- The ascension ritual should be terribly risky. Make it a skill challenge with multiple points of potential failure... and failure has terrible consequences.
If the PC manages to get through all of that, then they get their lichedom, and may the Gods have mercy on their soul!
I agree the process should be difficult, but I don't agree with the automatic enemies as a part of the process. Failure and death would be possible if it was in my game though.
The player would probably be hoarding their gold for the phylactery so as a fellow party member I would expect some sort of trade at times. Part of it up front, and the rest later.