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Below is my new guide on tripping builds.
Go to A Guide for Trip Builds in Pathfinder
Please feel free to comment and let me know if I've made any errors. Hope you enjoy.
Just a note: You never mention that whips don't threaten squares, so they can not be used as Attack of Opportunity weapon.
Thanks for the feedback. I did not realize that whips had this drawback. I will have to downgrade their rating and change the magus build when I get time.
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You might look at Alchemist for possible trip build options. You can make some great strength based alchemists with fairly moderate intelligence (13-14 starting) and using the mutagen to ramp up your strength. You can get access to a lot of extracts which would play very well with this concept.
Enlarge Person
Bulls Strength
Beast Shape II -> Large Creatures with reach and lots of attacks
Beast Shape III -> Same as II plus pounce (4-5 attacks per round with trip)
Liquid form...
Lots of good stuff for trippers.
Just some quick thoughts;
Under Classes, either go through all the classes color coding them or omit the less optimal classes and just cover the stronger classes. Some of the builds used classes not covered in the Classes section. It's important to be consistent by introducing strong candidate classes for trip builds then using them in your build section.
For feats, I would just make Combat expertise blue as it is a prerequisite for all trip builds, there's no reason to give an opinion on the feat otherwise.Coloring it red muddies the water (just my opinion)
Also, under the Magus, you have Magus Arcana (Maneuver Mastery: Trap), it should be Trip.
You might look at Alchemist for possible trip build options. You can make some great strength based alchemists with fairly moderate intelligence (13-14 starting) and using the mutagen to ramp up your strength. You can get access to a lot of extracts which would play very well with this concept.
Enlarge Person
Bulls Strength
Beast Shape II -> Large Creatures with reach and lots of attacks
Beast Shape III -> Same as II plus pounce (4-5 attacks per round with trip)
Liquid form...Lots of good stuff for trippers.
On your advice, I will look into what a tripper looks like if you put all levels into Alchemist when I get time.
I have a question regarding Alchemists and only having an intelligence of 13-14. If you increase your strength using the mutagen, then your intelligence drops. Does this mean while strengthened you no longer qualify for Combat Expertise and hence can't use Improved and Greater Trip while the mutagen is in effect?
Regarding Beast Shape, my concern is animal shapes normally only allow for 1 attack that is defined as a trip attack such as a bite attack. Does that mean you are limited to 1 attack per round as opposed to several attacks when you use a trip weapon such as a flail with a high BAB with your hands?
Just some quick thoughts;
Under Classes, either go through all the classes color coding them or omit the less optimal classes and just cover the stronger classes. Some of the builds used classes not covered in the Classes section. It's important to be consistent by introducing strong candidate classes for trip builds then using them in your build section.
For feats, I would just make Combat expertise blue as it is a prerequisite for all trip builds, there's no reason to give an opinion on the feat otherwise.Coloring it red muddies the water (just my opinion)
Also, under the Magus, you have Magus Arcana (Maneuver Mastery: Trap), it should be Trip.
When I get time, I will add all the missing classes to the Classes section. I'm undecided yet on whether I'll colour code them.
I will also follow your suggestion of changing Combat Expertise to blue to avoid confusion when I begin editing. Thanks for your comments.
So this is a funny one for me...
Equipment section advises on combat maneuvers associated to particular weapons - cool.
Combat maneuvers section in the rules don't say its specifically only allowable to a certain weapon.
Is that to say that I cannot attempt a Trip etc without a weapon that mentions this as a combat feat?
So a rapier user can attempt disarming but without the +2 CMB but without the appropriate weapon a trip is not possible? I never thought about that before - not arguing with you at all - just maybe misunderstood the rules.
Would the addition of feats change this?
I assumed that if the weapon does not list trip as part of its definition then you could not trip with it. I see where you are coming from with regards to no mention of this in the Combat Maneuvers section. It would be good to get clarification on this if anyone knows for sure. At this stage, I will still assume you can only trip with weapons that have the trip ability listed until evidence to the contrary is presented.
yes they can. ki throw tripping monks are neat. though his complete failure to mention monks and negative view of tripping monk weapons irks me.
the temple sword is an awesome weapon.
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You are assumed to be using some type of kick or similar "unarmed strike" if you are tripping without using a weapon with the trip ability. The only way to trip with a weapon is to use a weapon with the trip descriptor or be a 13th level Polearm Master.
In your class section you should really talk about more of the options. Although its pretty obvious why its good you could talk about some of the advantages of the different fighter archetypes.
For a druid you could also look at the Mountain Druid archetype. They could use wolf transformations until level 12 whereupon you can use Giant Form I, which allows you to use your normal weapon and iterative attacks. At level 16 you will have a reliable way to become Huge.
You do not need a trip weapon to attempt a trip. The trip weapon special property gives you the following;
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If
you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can
drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
So if you attempt to trip with a non-trip weapon and fail by 10 or more you are knocked prone (i.e. tripped)
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You do not need a trip weapon to attempt a trip. The trip weapon special property gives you the following;
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If
you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can
drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.So if you attempt to trip with a non-trip weapon and fail by 10 or more you are knocked prone (i.e. tripped)
It appears that I was mistaken. Reading the faq it appears that trip is what allows you to apply enhancement bonuses and feats like weapon focus to the attempt.
Agreed. Higher level barbarians with Strength Surge can pretty much pick one CMB check per rage to auto-pass, even against really high CMDs.
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On your advice, I will look into what a tripper looks like if you put all levels into Alchemist when I get time.
I have a question regarding Alchemists and only having an intelligence of 13-14. If you increase your strength using the mutagen, then your intelligence drops. Does this mean while strengthened you no longer qualify for Combat Expertise and hence can't use Improved and Greater Trip while the mutagen is in effect?
This is a good point and I think you are correct.
Regarding Beast Shape, my concern is animal shapes normally only allow for 1 attack that is defined as a trip attack such as a bite attack. Does that mean you are limited to 1 attack per round as opposed to several attacks when you use a trip weapon such as a flail with a high BAB with your hands?
The trip special ability works a little differently than when you are doing a normal trip combat maneuver. A creature with the Trip ability doesn't have to make a special trip attack, they make a normal attack and if that attack hits they do full damage and get a free trip attempt.
There is nothing that prevents a creature from making normal combat maneuvers with any or all their other limbs following the normal combat maneuver rules.
Ahhhh - ok. So a trip is possible with a Club (for instance) but as a club +2 could never apply the +2 to the attempt... but a +2 Glaive could. Like wise weapon focus in club doesn't assist in the trip attempt but using a sickle, it would assist.It appears that I was mistaken. Reading the faq it appears that trip is what allows you to apply enhancement bonuses and feats like weapon focus to the attempt.You do not need a trip weapon to attempt a trip. The trip weapon special property gives you the following;
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If
you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can
drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.So if you attempt to trip with a non-trip weapon and fail by 10 or more you are knocked prone (i.e. tripped)
My understanding is whatever affects your combat maneuver attack roll would be valid as long as it relates to the weapon being used in the trip attempt. So weapon focus (club) would apply, I am assuming enchantments etc would (don't quote me, I am no CMB expert)
There are some weapons that give extra bonuses to trip (temple sword I think).
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Power Attack as orange two-star makes no sense at all IMO, since the point of tripping is to get something "stuck" near you so you can wail on it -- but if you nerf your damage output, then you're auto-negating the reason you went trip-feat-tree in the first place. I.e., it's 17th level and Snr. Alchemist tripper Beast Shape III Pounces some guy and scratches him up good. Then the dude Power Attacks back on his turn while laying on the ground (-4 att, like he cares) and pOwns old-school-style with his Ghost Touch two-hander which ignores your Natural Armor while exploiting your AC-4 huge size penalty. You're almost as easy to hit as a gelatinous cube. If he smacks you three times, you're probably dead unless you have a lot of soak aspects going your way.
There are so many ways for especially dangerous opponents to slither out of Trip (or just not care) that I never bothered with it in 3.5. Trip is even harder now because more feats are required and it's easier to up your CMD. It's an awesome tool versus medium-sized evil clerics, but competent rogues, wizards, and big multi-legged monsters just laugh.
If you're going to do this, I recommend high DEX rogue whip+shield action as opposed to high-STR alchemist/rage/etc fauchard for tripping. Keep your AC high so that what you don't kill can't destroy you on its turn -- and easily trippable opponents are usually humanoids liable for sneak-attack damage as well. As a rogue you'll have many other roles, and won't be instant-suck when you toss the whip back into your haversack.
IMO the Overrun and Drag trees are now the shizzits for this sort of thing.
Power Attack as orange two-star makes no sense at all IMO, since the point of tripping is to get something "stuck" near you so you can wail on it -- but if you nerf your damage output, then you're auto-negating the reason you went trip-feat-tree in the first place. I.e., it's 17th level and Snr. Alchemist tripper Beast Shape III Pounces some guy and scratches him up good. Then the dude Power Attacks back on his turn while laying on the ground (-4 att, like he cares) and pOwns old-school-style with his Ghost Touch two-hander which ignores your Natural Armor while exploiting your AC-4 huge size penalty. You're almost as easy to hit as a gelatinous cube. If he smacks you three times, you're probably dead unless you have a lot of soak aspects going your way.
just laugh.
The points you make about Power Attack are valid and I have upgraded it.
If you're going to do this, I recommend high DEX rogue whip+shield action as opposed to high-STR alchemist/rage/etc fauchard for tripping. Keep your AC high so that what you don't kill can't destroy you on its turn -- and easily trippable opponents are usually humanoids liable for sneak-attack damage as well. As a rogue you'll have many other roles, and won't be instant-suck when you toss the whip back into your haversack.
I have problems with a whip wielding rogue as a tripper as someone else in this thread has pointed out to me that whips don't threaten. Rogues traditionally have high Dexterity and you won't be able to take advantage of this with reach and Combat Reflexes because you won't be getting AoO to trip.
The trip special ability works a little differently than when you are doing a normal trip combat maneuver. A creature with the Trip ability doesn't have to make a special trip attack, they make a normal attack and if that attack hits they do full damage and get a free trip attempt.
There is nothing that prevents a creature from making normal combat maneuvers with any or all their other limbs following the normal combat maneuver rules.
I see what you mean when you say it works differently. However I'm still a little confused by this. When looking at animal descriptions, they will normally have the trip ability associated with only one specific type of natural attack that they have such as a bite attack. For instance, wolf is written as 'Attack bite(1d6 plus trip)'. So if they have 2 claw attacks as well, I presumed that they would not be able to trip with the claw attacks since trip is not associated with those attacks.
Are you or anyone else able to clarify if the trip ability associated with one attack applies to different natural attacks? And if you are able to use the other natural attacks that don't have the trip ability associated with it, how does this impact what bonuses you can add to that CMB roll?
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Trip is so 3.5; in Pathfinder, this is what you want!
Enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.
Prerequisites: Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Overrun. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.
Normal: Creatures knocked prone by your overrun do not provoke an attack of opportunity.
It's especially good for when you're trying to get to the other side of the bad guy to flank him -- then he's prone between you and your ally, +6 to your AoOs.
No more throwing points into INT for Combat Expertise if you don't want that (Shield of Swings is your replacement for 3.5's non-nerfed Combat Expertise, and it's better anyway).
Trip is so 3.5; in Pathfinder, this is what you want!Enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.
Prerequisites: Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Overrun. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.
Normal: Creatures knocked prone by your overrun do not provoke an attack of opportunity.
It's especially good for when you're trying to get to the other side of the bad guy to flank him -- then he's prone between you and your ally, +6 to your AoOs.
No more throwing points into INT for Combat Expertise if you don't want that (Shield of Swings is your replacement for 3.5's non-nerfed Combat Expertise, and it's better anyway).
The whole point of tripping is to knock your opponent prone, so overrun is worth some consideration. However, when I read the overrun combat maneuvre it reads:
If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone.This puts you at a disadvantage compared to trip as you only need to beat(or equal depending on your interpretation of the rules) the CMD of the target. So you have 5 points of CMB to make up as well as a Dexterity bonus for trip you can pick up through the feat Fury's Fall. At higher levels, monsters have very high CMDs.
If you can show me a build at 12th level that makes up for this considerable difference (eg a CMB overrun score at least in the low 30s), I will include it as an alternative build option to tripping that achieves the same outcome in the tripping guide. The build must also include a regular and reliable means for becoming large so that you can combat huge creatures.
Otherwise a trip attempt is straight CMB with no modifiers... I think I have it now.Ahhhh - ok. So a trip is possible with a Club (for instance) but as a club +2 could never apply the +2 to the attempt... but a +2 Glaive could. Like wise weapon focus in club doesn't assist in the trip attempt but using a sickle, it would assist.It appears that I was mistaken. Reading the faq it appears that trip is what allows you to apply enhancement bonuses and feats like weapon focus to the attempt.You do not need a trip weapon to attempt a trip. The trip weapon special property gives you the following;
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If
you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can
drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.So if you attempt to trip with a non-trip weapon and fail by 10 or more you are knocked prone (i.e. tripped)
My understanding is whatever affects your combat maneuver attack roll would be valid as long as it relates to the weapon being used in the trip attempt. So weapon focus (club) would apply, I am assuming enchantments etc would (don't quote me, I am no CMB expert)
There are some weapons that give extra bonuses to trip (temple sword I think).
I'm not sure this is right. I've been looking through trip threads for official answers and found several responses from James Jacobs on a thread titled: "Trip and Trip Weapons, Must they Go Together? (Looking for Clarification)"
He made the following responses at various points in the thread:
My take:
When you want to trip a foe, you don't normally use a weapon. Similarly, you don't normally use a weapon to bull rush, grapple, or overrun a foe. You just lash out with a leg sweep or whatever and try to trip the foe. Doing so is an attack, but that doesn't mean you need a weapon to make the attempt.
Now... SOME weapons (not all) allow you to use the weapon to trip a foe, thus giving you a slight advantage since if you mess up the trip attempt, you can just drop the weapon to "counter" the trip that comes back at you.
In order to trip with reach, you either need to have reach on your own as a virtue of your race, or you need to be wielding a reach weapon with the trip ability. Being able to trip with any long-hafted weapon like a spear or pole arm is a neat idea, but that's better handled as a specific feat rather than allowing any long-hafted weapon to gain the trip ability.
But basically... when you trip a foe you don't use a weapon. If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category.
Sorry if my response wasn't the one you were looking or hoping for. Fortunately, you can run your game however you want if the rules don't work for you. But as far as I can tell by reading the rules... they're pretty dang clear. You can't trip with a weapon unless that weapon has the word "trip" listed under its special.
From his comments we can assume:
1. You can't trip with a weapon unless it has the "trip" special category.
2. You can trip with a natural weapon or unarmed attack though it will provoke an attack of opportunity unless you have the Improved Trip feat.
3. Some wildshapes/animals have the "trip" special category associated with one of their natural attacks such as a bite attack. In this instance, a successful attack deals the damage and then grants a trip attack as well that does not allow AoO.
This has answered my questions from a post I made a little earlier regarding natural attacks. You can make trips with all of your natural attacks but only the natural attacks with the trip category granted to it prevents AoO unless you have the Improved Trip feat.
My only remaining question is: Does this mean you can make trip attacks as a monk using a cestus or brass knuckles as they are using your unarmed attacks?
yes they can. ki throw tripping monks are neat. though his complete failure to mention monks and negative view of tripping monk weapons irks me.
the temple sword is an awesome weapon.
I am hoping to soon add builds for both the Monk and Barbarian as well as more comments about both in the classes section. I agree that the guide is incomplete without this.
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Instead of reading through a myriad of threads, pouring over interpretations and interpretations of interpretations, here is an official answer from Sean K Reynolds, Developer, on 03/15/11.
OFFICIAL RULING ON TRIP WEAPONS
The last paragraph that compares tripping between a +5 whip and a +5 long sword signifies that you can trip with all weapons.
Do I agree with this ruling? No. Is this as official as it gets? Yes.
Instead of reading through a myriad of threads, pouring over interpretations and interpretations of interpretations, here is an official answer from Sean K Reynolds, Developer, on 03/15/11.
OFFICIAL RULING ON TRIP WEAPONS
The last paragraph that compares tripping between a +5 whip and a +5 long sword signifies that you can trip with all weapons.
Do I agree with this ruling? No. Is this as official as it gets? Yes.
Ok that's super helpful because it seems there's some secondary benefits to using a trip weapon that you don't get when using a non-trip besides the "drop to avoid trip" rule.
Instead of reading through a myriad of threads, pouring over interpretations and interpretations of interpretations, here is an official answer from Sean K Reynolds, Developer, on 03/15/11.
OFFICIAL RULING ON TRIP WEAPONS
The last paragraph that compares tripping between a +5 whip and a +5 long sword signifies that you can trip with all weapons.
Do I agree with this ruling? No. Is this as official as it gets? Yes.
Ok, thanks for that link. My final question still stands - do you get to add the bonus from magical brass knuckles for unarmed monk attacks when attempting to trip? I'm thinking probably not, but I want to hear what others think.
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There are two different things called "Trip" that are related but not identical.
The Trip Combat Maneuver can be used by any creature (with any attack) at any time.
Some creatures also have a (related) Trip Special Attack which is described in the Universal Monster Rules. Abilities listed after attacks on a monsters stat block always refer to the Special Attack forms detailed in the universal monster rules.
Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.
Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.
Having the Trip Special Ability on one attack form doesn't limit what you can do with other attack forms, it's a sort of 'bonus' ability.
Generally animal intelligence level creatures and below are only going to do combat maneuvers as part of a special attack, however intelligent creatures or characters polymorphed into animals or other creatures can.
If you are polymorphed (Beast Shape II or higher) into a cheetah (cat, small) with the following attacks:
Melee bite +6 (1d6+3 plus trip), 2 claws +6 (1d3+3)
You can make three attack actions in a round. With your bite you can make a trip attempt as a free action. With your claws you can't use the 'trip' special ability, but you can opt to make a normal trip attack using the trip combat maneuver.
Maybe this was too long winded an explanation?
I see what you mean when you say it works differently. However I'm still a little confused by this. When looking at animal descriptions, they will normally have the trip ability associated with only one specific type of natural attack that they have such as a bite attack. For instance, wolf is written as 'Attack bite(1d6 plus trip)'. So if they have 2 claw attacks as well, I presumed that they would not be able to trip with the claw attacks since trip is not associated with those attacks.
The last paragraph that compares tripping between a +5 whip and a +5 long sword signifies that you can trip with all weapons.
He appears to be literally saying that but effectivelysaying the opposite.
The way I actually read that ruling is that "you can make an unarmed trip attempt even when holding a non-trip weapon in your hand" -- because he says that without the trip property you can't add any of the advantages of the weapon to your trip maneuver. Since there's no mechanical difference between tripping unarmed and tripping with a longsword, calling it "tripping with a longsword" is really a misnomer.And, since a non-trip weapon doesn't help your trip attempt in any way, I don't think a non-trip reach weapon even lets you trip non-adjacent opponents.
Having the Trip Special Ability on one attack form doesn't limit what you can do with other attack forms, it's a sort of 'bonus' ability.
Generally animal intelligence level creatures and below are only going to do combat maneuvers as part of a special attack, however intelligent creatures or characters polymorphed into animals or other creatures can.
If you are polymorphed (Beast Shape II or higher) into a cheetah (cat, small) with the following attacks:
Melee bite +6 (1d6+3 plus trip), 2 claws +6 (1d3+3)You can make three attack actions in a round. With your bite you can make a trip attempt as a free action. With your claws you can't use the 'trip' special ability, but you can opt to make a normal trip attack using the trip combat maneuver.
Maybe this was too long winded an explanation?
Actually, that was a great explanation. It's perfectly clear to me now. In relation to this, do you think Magic Fang bonus would only apply to the bite attack in your example for calculating your CMB trip bonus?
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Actually, that was a great explanation. It's perfectly clear to me now. In relation to this, do you think Magic Fang bonus would only apply to the bite attack in your example for calculating your CMB trip bonus?
I'm almost certain you wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from magic fang to the CMB for the claw attacks.
As for the bite attack... it's a little less clear. The way I read things it seems to me that you would but I can see someone reading it the other way.
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He appears to be literally saying that but effectivelysaying the opposite.
The way I actually read that ruling is that "you can make an unarmed trip attempt even when holding a non-trip weapon in your hand" -- because he says that without the trip property you can't add any of the advantages of the weapon to your trip maneuver. Since there's no mechanical difference between tripping unarmed and tripping with a longsword, calling it "tripping with a longsword" is really a misnomer.
And, since a non-trip weapon doesn't help your trip attempt in any way, I don't think a non-trip reach weapon even lets you trip non-adjacent opponents.
Agree with all your points except the last sentence. Taking Sean's entire second paragraph into account, it is clear that he is trying to convey there is no STATISTICAL difference btw tripping with a +5 long sword vs. unarmed. He did not contradict what he claimed in the first paragraph, that you can execute a trip combat maneuver with any weapon.
Here's a question of my own. Normally, if your trip maneuver fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. Does this penalty applies when you use a reach weapon to trip a non-adjacent opponent? I imagine that it does, but want to hear the opinions of others.
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He appears to be literally saying that but effectivelysaying the opposite.
The way I actually read that ruling is that "you can make an unarmed trip attempt even when holding a non-trip weapon in your hand" -- because he says that without the trip property you can't add any of the advantages of the weapon to your trip maneuver. Since there's no mechanical difference between tripping unarmed and tripping with a longsword, calling it "tripping with a longsword" is really a misnomer.
And, since a non-trip weapon doesn't help your trip attempt in any way, I don't think a non-trip reach weapon even lets you trip non-adjacent opponents.Agree with all your points except the last sentence. Taking Sean's entire second paragraph into account, it is clear that he is trying to convey there is no STATISTICAL difference btw tripping with a +5 long sword vs. unarmed. He did not contradict what he claimed in the first paragraph, that you can execute a trip combat maneuver with any weapon.
Here's a question of my own. Normally, if your trip maneuver fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. Does this penalty applies when you use a reach weapon to trip a non-adjacent opponent? I imagine that it does, but want to hear the opinions of others.
Since there are Reach weapons with the Trip property, like the fauchard, I would say that the normal rules apply.
@c873788
Thank you for your work.
Now it seems that almost every problem (or vagueness) about tripped is solved, so any chance that you update your guide?
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I'd like to offer up the barbarian as not just a good choice for tripping, but an absurdly good choice.
Consider an 11th level barbarian with greater trip, the beast totem tree, and strength surge.
Once per rage the barbarian has +26 to a trip attempt. Before strength and weapon modifiers.
Starting with 18 strength and using greater rage and a +4 strength belt you're looking at +35 to the attempt. A +2 trip weapon takes that to +37.
And then there's the fact that the barbarian can immediately take advantage of a charging, surged trip (+39 to the roll I believe) by hitting the bad guy three times (AoO and then two iteratives from beast totem pounce).
In terms of range, mix-in a level of oracle for cinder dance and the barbarian can do this from 100 feet out before any other speed modifiers. Drop a level of oracle
Now, without the once/rage power that's only a +28 and you're dependent upon someone else for the enlarge person (bringing the charging rage trip to +40)...but still.
Barbarians are also the only class that can Bull Rush on an AoO. Some may not think this is relevant to a trip build, but they would be wrong. It is the only way to bull rush with a reach weapon, and it can trigger when your opponent stands up from prone. This allows you to trip them and then bull rush them back out of your threatened area.
Also, the ability to attempt a trip when the opponent enters the threatened area instead of when they leave it is huge.
@c873788
Thank you for your work.Now it seems that almost every problem (or vagueness) about tripped is solved, so any chance that you update your guide?
I have now added a Monk Build, comments on Monks in the Class section and have added Ki Throw in the Feats section.
Still to do:
1. update notes around how tripping works with regards to trip/non-trip weapons based on clarification and terrific feedback in this thread.
2. put a sample Barbarian build in the Build Section
3. add comments on classes missing from the Classes Section
Do I need to add anything else to the to-do list?
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Consider an 11th level barbarian with greater trip, the beast totem tree, and strength surge. Once per rage the barbarian has +26 to a trip attempt. Before strength and weapon modifiers.
Note that Strength Surge is a defense immediate-reaction ability -- so it's unlikely you'll be using it to trip (unless you're combining it with a free AoO granted when somebody tries to grapple you, or some such).
Barbarians are also the only class that can Bull Rush on an AoO. It is the only way to bull rush with a reach weapon, and it can trigger when your opponent stands up from prone. This allows you to trip them and then bull rush them back out of your threatened area.
Knockback rage power doesn't grant any special ability to use a reach weapon (or any weapon) to perform a Bull Rush.
Note that Strength Surge is a defense immediate-reaction ability -- so it's unlikely you'll be using it to trip (unless you're combining it with a free AoO granted when somebody tries to grapple you, or some such).
Strength Surge *can* be used defensively, but an immediate action can just as easily be used on your turn, for an action you initiate. That is the main purpose of it really. The immediate action to CMD would be secondary use really.
It counts as the swift action that turn, just as it would count as the swift action on your next turn if used immediately, and thus no different than any swift action power.
Strength Surge *can* be used defensively, but an immediate action can just as easily be used on your turn, for an action you initiate. That is the main purpose of it really. The immediate action to CMD would be secondary use really.
It counts as the swift action that turn, just as it would count as the swift action on your next turn if used immediately, and thus no different than any swift action power.
I've just gone back to read up on Strength Surge from the Rage Powers and I think you are correct in your interpretation. It can be used for:
a. strength checks orb. CMB or
c. CMD when an opponent attempts a maneuver on you.
Moving onto other matters, I have now included the FAQ on trip vs non trip weapons as a useful extract in the guide.
That leaves me just the barbarian build and the class section to complete unless someone has something else they think should be included. If anyone has any interesting trip build ideas that I have not covered, I am more than happy to copy them into the guide with due acknowledgement.
An example Human Barbarian build:
Str 18 (10)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 13 (3)
Wis 11 (1)
Cha 7 (-4)
Feats
1. Combat Expertise
H. Improved Trip
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Power Attack
7. Greater Trip
9. Improved Bull Rush
Rage Powers:
2. Quick Reflexes
4. Strength Surge
6. Knockback
8. Unexpected Strike
You don't really need to multiclass to get enlarge person, or more feats. Thats what allies are for, and it is a waste to multiclass. Strength Surge encourages you to stay in Barbarian, and you don't really need much else.
Knockback allows you to bull rush your opponent in place of a meelee attack, instead of as an attack action. Aside from shield bashing, it is one of the few ways to bull rush on an AoO, and is the only way I know of to do it at reach. In addition, you get some mediocre damage
Unexpected strike is amasing on a tripper. If you do not have reach, its practically manditory. And it will frustrate opponents to no end if they are unable to close to with you, even with reach weapons, for a round.
Power attack is a must. I would consider putting it at first level. Its how you stay relevant with damage when not tripping.
edit: added stats
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Note that Strength Surge is a defense immediate-reaction ability -- so it's unlikely you'll be using it to trip (unless you're combining it with a free AoO granted when somebody tries to grapple you, or some such).Immediate action means you can use it out of initiative as well as during a turn. Not just as a defensive response.
So yeah that's just...very wrong?
The comma got me.
(Note, however, that you'll only be using it once per rage.)
An example Human Barbarian build:
Str 18 (10)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 13 (3)
Wis 11 (1)
Cha 7 (-4)edit: added stats
Thanks Caineach. I will add your example as the sample barbarian build to the guide when I get a chance. Please note with the stats that I put the starting costs for a 20 point build in brackets next to the scores, but display the stats as they would appear at 12th level assuming you have access to a +2 belt of physical might and you put most of your ability increases every 4th level into Strength. There is a spare feat in your build to which I will assign Fury's Fall to increase your CMB Trip value.