I'm pretty sure i know the answer but i still feel the need to confirm with the community here.
Lets say i'm a rogue using 2 weapons. For whatever reason i'm allowed to sneak attack my opponant and i do hit succesfully with both weapon.
Do i get the extra sneak attack damage for both weapons?
Yep
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I'm pretty sure i know the answer but i still feel the need to confirm with the community here.
Lets say i'm a rogue using 2 weapons. For whatever reason i'm allowed to sneak attack my opponant and i do hit succesfully with both weapon.
Do i get the extra sneak attack damage for both weapons?
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
I am of the opinion that the term "anytime" includes situations such as you've described. Thus, yes... :)
Yep. If you've got TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and are hasted, you can get sneak attack up to 8 times easily. There's a few special builds where you can get it more.
There's two exceptions, though: If you're only getting sneak attack because you were hidden, you're automatically noticed after the first attack. If you were invisible with a spell that breaks when you make an attack, you only count as invisible (and thus get sneak attack) on the first attack.
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Yep. If you've got TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and are hasted, you can get sneak attack up to 8 times easily. There's a few special builds where you can get it more.
There's two exceptions, though: If you're only getting sneak attack because you were hidden, you're automatically noticed after the first attack. If you were invisible with a spell that breaks when you make an attack, you only count as invisible (and thus get sneak attack) on the first attack.
I've always been of the opinion that the "flat-footed" condition applies to the victim of a sneak attack with respect to the sneak attacker only.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
It doesn't explicitly say so (which is why this is my opinion), but I interpret this to mean "until your next turn after becoming aware of an opponent, you are flat-footed with respect to that opponent."
Being flat-footed and being denied dex are not the same thing mechanically, even though people often get them confused.
Being flat-footed denies dex among other things, but being denied dex does not mean you are flat-footed.
Flat-footed is an actual condition just like being stunned is, and you can not be any more be flat-footed against one only attacker than you can be stunned against only one attacker.
There are exceptions to the rule, but if someone makes you flat-footed then generally you are flat-footed against everyone.
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Oohh... Fatespinner - that's an interesting take. One limiting factor that I see is that you don't get a full-round for surprise - just a single action.
Still, interesting.
It's not technically a surprise round by my interpretation.
Let's say the party approaches a group of bandits. The rogue is currently invisible (as the spell invisibility) when the battle is joined. Initiative is rolled. Actions are taken. The rogue's action is spent getting into position behind a bandit archer. Then, on the rogue's next normal turn, he makes a full-attack action against the archer (assuming the archer didn't move away from the invisible rogue). Now, since this is regular invisibility, the rogue loses the benefit of the spell after his first attack. However, the archer was completely unaware of the rogue's presence and is thus (by my interpretation) flat-footed to the rogue until the archer's next action (which means the entire full-attack from the rogue gets SA). This also means that if the rogue performs an action that would draw an attack of opportunity from the archer before that archer's turn, the archer could not take the attack unless he possessed Combat Reflexes.
Oohh... Fatespinner - that's an interesting take. One limiting factor that I see is that you don't get a full-round for surprise - just a single action.
Still, interesting.
During a surprise round you only get a standard action so only one attack, but if you just lose initiative you are flat-footed until you act.
In short until you take an action on your turn you are sneak attack bait.prd:At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.
Oohh... Fatespinner - that's an interesting take. One limiting factor that I see is that you don't get a full-round for surprise - just a single action.
Still, interesting.
It's not technically a surprise round by my interpretation.
Let's say the party approaches a group of bandits. The rogue is currently invisible (as the spell invisibility) when the battle is joined. Initiative is rolled. Actions are taken. The rogue's action is spent getting into position behind a bandit archer. Then, on the rogue's next normal turn, he makes a full-attack action against the archer (assuming the archer didn't move away from the invisible rogue). Now, since this is regular invisibility, the rogue loses the benefit of the spell after his first attack. However, the archer was completely unaware of the rogue's presence and is thus (by my interpretation) flat-footed to the rogue until the archer's next action (which means the entire full-attack from the rogue gets SA). This also means that if the rogue performs an action that would draw an attack of opportunity from the archer before that archer's turn, the archer could not take the attack unless he possessed Combat Reflexes.
If the rogue sneaks up on the archer after the archer has taken a turn the archer is not flat-footed, but he is denied dex and the rules for taking an attack of opportunity do mean you have to be aware of the opponent.
That means the archer can not get his AoO, but that is because he is not aware of the rogue, not because he is flat-footed.Mechanically it is the same affect, but I prefer to be exact in the rules section.
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During a surprise round you only get a standard action so only one attack, but if you just lose initiative you are flat-footed until you act.
In short until you take an action on your turn you are sneak attack bait.prd:At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.
Yup. And it is because of this that a very fast (and probably very lucky) rogue can deliver a large number of sneak attacks at the earliest part of a battle.
Round 1 (Surprise): Rogue takes a single standard action to charge an opponent (move up to his speed + 1 melee attack). This attack gets SA.
Round 2 (normal): If the rogue's initiative is higher than his opponent's, he gets to act in the NORMAL round before his opponent does, meaning the opponent is still flat-footed. He can now take a full attack action that fully benefits from Sneak Attack.
So that's a full-attack action PLUS one standard attack, all with SA, all on the same opponent, all without flanking or invisibility. :D
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If the rogue sneaks up on the archer after the archer has taken a turn the archer is not flat-footed, but he is denied dex and the rules for taking an attack of opportunity do mean you have to be aware of the opponent.
That means the archer can not get his AoO, but that is because he is not aware of the rogue, not because he is flat-footed.Mechanically it is the same affect, but I prefer to be exact in the rules section.
I'm calling it flat-footed because of my original statement as to why the rogue's FULL attack benefits from SA and not just the first strike as Bobson described. By his interpretation, the first attack makes the opponent "aware" of you and thus you only gain SA on the first attack. I say you're still technically "unaware" until your next action, as per the flat-footed rules.
It's all semantics, but that's my reasoning for using "flat-footed" instead of simply saying "denied DEX." I am well aware of the distinction and difference in terms.
I believe Bobson was referring to a situation where the target is denied Dex because the Rogue was invisible (or similar). In those cases, the target is no longer denied Dex for attacks following the first. Thus, only one attack gets sneak attack damage.
If the target is denied Dex because it is flat-footed, then the Rogue gets sneak attack on all of its attacks.
I believe Bobson was referring to a situation where the target is denied Dex because the Rogue was invisible (or similar). In those cases, the target is no longer denied Dex for attacks following the first. Thus, only one attack gets sneak attack damage.
If the target is denied Dex because it is flat-footed, then the Rogue gets sneak attack on all of its attacks.
That is how I read it also.
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That is how I read it also.I believe Bobson was referring to a situation where the target is denied Dex because the Rogue was invisible (or similar). In those cases, the target is no longer denied Dex for attacks following the first. Thus, only one attack gets sneak attack damage.
If the target is denied Dex because it is flat-footed, then the Rogue gets sneak attack on all of its attacks.
That is also how I read it. Which is why I said that I run it so that ALL of the rogue's attacks would benefit from SA since, even though his invisibility ends after the first attack, the opponent is unable to react to the attack until his next action and is thusly still susceptible to further sneak attacks (the remainder of the rogue's full attack).
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Yep. If you've got TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF, and are hasted, you can get sneak attack up to 8 times easily. There's a few special builds where you can get it more.
There's two exceptions, though: If you're only getting sneak attack because you were hidden, you're automatically noticed after the first attack. If you were invisible with a spell that breaks when you make an attack, you only count as invisible (and thus get sneak attack) on the first attack.
This may be overly pedantic for some, but I don't think so. These aren't exceptions. They are a description of the fact that the condition that grants sneak attack ends after the first attack. The attacks that come after don't meet the conditions (other than under Fatespinner's houserule), and thus are not "anytime."
@Fatespinner: obviously you're open to run games as you wish. However, as has been mentioned, what you're doing is effectively giving a surprise full round to the recently invisible guy. It isn't a perfect analogy, but close. A character is normally caught flat-footed for a full round by having lost initiative (balance-type acrobatics excepted). I understand your thought, but it seems to heavily divorced from the idea that the initiative order is a mechanical means of handling simultaneous action.
In the game world, it isn't as though the invisible guy attacks and takes all of his attacks before anyone can respond. Initiative is just the mechanical means of resolving the attacks during a period of time where everyone is doing stuff and reacting to the actions around them. Attacks, in themselves, are only those attempts that have a chance to succeed, not the entirety of all attacking attempts.
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In the game world, it isn't as though the invisible guy attacks and takes all of his attacks before anyone can respond. Initiative is just the mechanical means of resolving the attacks during a period of time where everyone is doing stuff and reacting to the actions around them. Attacks, in themselves, are only those attempts that have a chance to succeed, not the entirety of all attacking attempts.
I understand that, but if that's the case, then why is the scenario I presented above still feasible even according to RAW? (The scenario in which a rogue charges in the surprise round, then makes a full attack against the still-flat-footed opponent.) If a rogue can cross 30 feet of terrain, stab someone, then hit them with a flurry of 2-8 MORE stabs before they get their DEX bonus back and can start "fighting back," I don't feel my interpretation of invisibility is so wrong.
But yes, you are right, my ruling is definitely not RAW, and I've stated as much.
That is also how I read it. Which is why I said that I run it so that ALL of the rogue's attacks would benefit from SA since, even though his invisibility ends after the first attack, the opponent is unable to react to the attack until his next action and is thusly still susceptible to further sneak attacks (the remainder of the rogue's full attack).That is how I read it also.I believe Bobson was referring to a situation where the target is denied Dex because the Rogue was invisible (or similar). In those cases, the target is no longer denied Dex for attacks following the first. Thus, only one attack gets sneak attack damage.
If the target is denied Dex because it is flat-footed, then the Rogue gets sneak attack on all of its attacks.
The rules don't work like that though. When you are denied dex due to invisibility or a hidden creature you are only denied dex for that first attack.
PS:I just noticed that you bolded the word "I".
The rules don't work like that though. When you are denied dex due to invisibility or a hidden creature you are only denied dex for that first attack.PS:I just noticed that you bolded the word "I".
Unless they somehow maintain their hidden position for future attacks such as using greater invisibility.
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In the game world, it isn't as though the invisible guy attacks and takes all of his attacks before anyone can respond. Initiative is just the mechanical means of resolving the attacks during a period of time where everyone is doing stuff and reacting to the actions around them. Attacks, in themselves, are only those attempts that have a chance to succeed, not the entirety of all attacking attempts.I understand that, but if that's the case, then why is the scenario I presented above still feasible even according to RAW? (The scenario in which a rogue charges in the surprise round, then makes a full attack against the still-flat-footed opponent.) If a rogue can cross 30 feet of terrain, stab someone, then hit them with a flurry of 2-8 MORE stabs before they get their DEX bonus back and can start "fighting back," I don't feel my interpretation of invisibility is so wrong.
But yes, you are right, my ruling is definitely not RAW, and I've stated as much.
Yep, I get that you understand it isn't RAW (have from the beginning). :)
Rogue charges in the surprise round. Moving higher in initiative, his opponent is flat flooted, resulting in the rogue getting off additional attacks. Flat footed means that the opponent is unprepared to act and defend himself. He has not collected himself into a defensive posture. He isn't actively dodging blows (lack of dex bonus).
Compare to: Rogue sneaks invisibly up on target, who is actively engaged in combat. He attacks vs. unaware target, who thus isn't able to actively block/dodge that blow. Target is now aware, and being in a defensive posture, incorporates rogues actions into his defenses such that rogue doesn't get off additional SA. (This is the RAW interpretation).
Your Version: Rogue sneaks invisibly up on target, who is actively engaged in combat. He attacks vs. unaware target, who thus isn't able to actively block/dodge that blow. Target is taken off-guard. Although he's been responding to other attacks, he is not yet able to incorporate the new threat into his defenses. Rogue is able to take advantage of this for an extended period of time, similar to as if target had been in a non-defensive posture all together.
From an in-game perspective, the difference is that the target is already in a defensive posture and now must adjust it. That is easier to do and results in fewer opportunities than if he was in defensive posture to start with. From a games mechanics position, the surprise-charging/initiative winning rogue beat out the target on two separate opportunities: 1) he avoided detection and thus gained surprise, and 2) he won the opposed initiative check.
Happy to talk about this further in the houserules/alternative rules forum; I think it's moved off topic for the rules forum.