This is on pg. 192 of the Core Rulebook:
Bonuses to Speed: A barbarian has a +10-foot bonus to
his speed (unless she’s wearing heavy armor).
When writing the text why didn't the authors just stick with the standard HE/HIS instead of trying to mix in SHE/HER. This just seems silly and distracting.
I believe this is a copy-paste error.
Paizo style seems to dictate that the class text uses the gender of that class's iconic illustration. In this case, the word "his" should be "her".
Unless I am wrong.
It is a matter of page count. He/She or she/he takes up a lot more space. In a book the size of the core rules you are talking about pages of room for additional content available by only using she or he instead of both. So they mix it up. Near as I remember 3.0 and 3.5 under wizards used she exclusively, so I guess mixing in both pronouns is a more equal opportunity method? Doesnt really matter as soon as you understand the pronoun gender isnt important to the content and is just a function of english grammar.
Creative Director
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Yup; when we're talking about a class's abilities or the like, we use the correct gender as appropriate for the iconic.
For barbarian stuff, that means we use she/her. For bards, he/his. And so on.
The bit on page 192 of the Core Rulebook is technically an error-we should have used the feminine versions throughout-but since it doesn't confuse the actual rules, it's a case of an error that is so low-priority for us to fix that it's just slipped through the cracks as we focus on correcting more complex and game-impacting bits of errata.
I'll send the error on to the error-tracking team for correction in an upcoming printing, in any case.
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Well I find the style offensive, so it's clearly not working :P
More seriously, I think White Wolf alternates paragraphs or examples. I don't mind so much the 'match the iconic' style of Paizo.
I'm old fashioned. it's 'He' and 'Him' and 'Man' in my book. When writing something Pathfinderish I will try to match an iconic if I have one though. ex: if I wrote a dozen new rage powers, they'd be written with She to reflect Jodi, er, Amri. :-)
I heard Orcish uses three grammatical genders....
Depends on whether the action at hand corresponds more to bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing.
8-P
Maybe all the iconic characters should have been men :-)
Regardless, is there a list of the iconic characters class/names/genders somewhere?
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Creative Director
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Well I find the style offensive, so it's clearly not working :P
More seriously, I think White Wolf alternates paragraphs or examples. I don't mind so much the 'match the iconic' style of Paizo.
I'm old fashioned. it's 'He' and 'Him' and 'Man' in my book. When writing something Pathfinderish I will try to match an iconic if I have one though. ex: if I wrote a dozen new rage powers, they'd be written with She to reflect Jodi, er, Amri. :-)
No matter what we choose, we'll offend someone.
So we default to the style that doesn't offend the editors and writers here at Paizo. And that style is to mix up the genders more or less equally.
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Creative Director
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I heard Orcish uses three grammatical genders....
Depends on whether the action at hand corresponds more to bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing.
8-P
Heh.
For our Pathfinder style, the word "orcish" is a grammatical error itself, by the way.
We don't use "-ish" at the end of any of our races to make adjectives. We generally just use the name of the race.
INCORRECT: This is an orcish sword. That guy speaks Orcish.
CORRECT: This is an orc sword. That guy speaks Orc.
IIRC, the pronoun's gender is usually referred to the appropriate iconic character (in this case Amiri the barbarian, a female character).
This is something I really appreciated from Pathfinder. The diversity of the iconics didn't seem to be done in a specifically politically correct kind of way, but rather to illustrate that adventurers in the game come in such a wide plethora of shapes and sizes. As someone who has experienced women and people of various races having trouble identifying with certain RPGs, I'm glad for the thought they put into it, it's a book that can come across better to more people.
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Creative Director
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Maybe all the iconic characters should have been men :-)
Regardless, is there a list of the iconic characters class/names/genders somewhere?
Heh... maybe all of the iconic characters should have been women?
Serisouly, the idea of doing all male iconics was never on the table-and not only because I find that fundamentally narrow-minded and offensive.
We specifically chose to have half men and half women iconics to keep the gender split as even as possible. Technically, with the addition of the ninja, the samurai, and the gunslinger, we're at an odd numbered mix of iconics now, and that means we have one more female iconic than male. If and when we do another one, chances are 100% that he'll be a guy.
As for the best place to go to see a list of the iconic characters... just type in "meet the iconics" in our search window; that'll bring up the character histories for those we've posted on our blogs. We're not 100% caught up yet on those histories, but we're getting there.
If you have a copy of the Core Rulebook handy, an even EASIER method is to simply look at the pictures we used to illustrate the 11 core classes (and then in the APG, the pictures we used to illustrate the 6 new base classes) and the magus in Ultimate Magic. The last three iconics aren't gonna be in a book until Gen Con's "Ultimate Combat."
For our Pathfinder style, the word "orcish" is a grammatical error itself, by the way.
We don't use "-ish" at the end of any of our races to make adjectives. We generally just use the name of the race.
Then I have to ask if "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" is an error, or an exception out of respect to tradition?
One of the failings (IMO) of English is the lack of a gender-neutral pronoun. It's very annoying when the gender is unknown to the speaker. Using "him" or "her" doesn't work, and using "they" is, frankly, terrible. I've been hoping such a pronoun would make its way into the OED, but that has yet to happen. Instead Homer Simpson's "doh" is added and my eyes roll.
My hat is in the ring for the use of "gya", but that's due to author Steven Brust's Dragaera series.
Until English has such a word, I'll continue to use, and be frustrated by, "him" or "her". (The use of "him/her" bugs me as well.)
Perhaps some Golarion gnome can devise such a word for use in the Common tongue? That'd be swell. :)
Heh... maybe all of the iconic characters should have been women?
Great, thanks. Now I've got a mental image of Seoni in chainmail with two large . . . short swords.
Serisouly, the idea of doing all male iconics was never on the table-and not only because I find that fundamentally narrow-minded and offensive.
You work on a game that includes Asmodeus the Prince of Darkness as a prominent diety and using only he/his is offensive to you...really?
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Well I find the style offensive, so it's clearly not working :P
No matter what we choose, we'll offend someone.
So we default to the style that doesn't offend the editors and writers here at Paizo. And that style is to mix up the genders more or less equally.
Damn, I'm rolling ones on my craft(post) checks today.
I was trying to say when you go to 'not offend' someone, you offend someone else. I don't mind Paizo's method.
I'd not expect you to go out of your way to write in a style that offends you. Likewise if I'm writing something for the RPG (even for my own use) I'll try to emulate your (meaning Paizo's) style, for consistancy (in case it shows up on Google Docs) and for practice ;-)
You work on a game that includes Asmodeus the Prince of Darkness as a prominent diety and using only he/his is offensive to you...really?
Serisouly, the idea of doing all male iconics was never on the table-and not only because I find that fundamentally narrow-minded and offensive.
Makes sense to me. Asmodeus is a work of fiction and fun to use. Gender issues in RPGs are real and a serious consideration for a publisher if they want to appeal to a wide range of customers.
I heard Orcish uses three grammatical genders....
Depends on whether the action at hand corresponds more to bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing.
8-PHeh.
For our Pathfinder style, the word "orcish" is a grammatical error itself, by the way.
We don't use "-ish" at the end of any of our races to make adjectives. We generally just use the name of the race.
INCORRECT: This is an orcish sword. That guy speaks Orcish.
CORRECT: This is an orc sword. That guy speaks Orc.
I bet that pisses off those Chels to no end! :D
You work on a game that includes Asmodeus the Prince of Darkness as a prominent diety and using only he/his is offensive to you...really?
You do know that all the characters in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting are mere fiction and do not reflect the views of Paizo Publishing, LLC or their staff?
The game also has Norgorber in his Father Skinsaw aspect and still James Jacobs is not okay with murder.
Or is he?
I'm against this wishy washy "let's not offend people" stuff. I say get mad! Offend as many people as possible. Use words like =)%/(), §())"/(, )$=)%(//(!, #§$% and ))§(/ as often as possible! Get a Top Ten List of Things People Are Really Sensitive About and ridicule and insult these things as often as possible.
I mean, you're always going to offend someone, so might as well go the whole 8 metres 23 centimetres (yes, imperial measurements are inferior!)
(Joking of course, though the temptation is always there).
I am not trying to start anything negative, I am just saying we all play a game that is filled with devils/demons/combat/killing and other "rough stuff", and we LOVE EVERY MINUTE....but we are offended because we use he/his instead of she/her....just seems silly and a little bit hypocritical to me.
I am sure the political correct police will waive me off the road and cite me.
I am not trying to start anything negative
You must be a prodigy, then ;-P
I am just saying we all play a game that is filled with devils/demons/combat/killing and other "rough stuff", and we LOVE EVERY MINUTE....but we are offended because we use he/his instead of she/her....just seems silly and a little bit hypocritical to me.I am sure the political correct police will waive me off the road and cite me.
Nah, it's more the just plain wrong secret service will abduct you in the middle of the night and you'll never be heard from again.
You seem to confuse acknowledging the existence of something with approving of it.
Sure, the game has demons, devils, degenerate rapist giant-kin, murder and lots and lots of things, but that doesn't mean that the authors are all for worshipping demons, raping people to death, and whathaveyou. They do not endorse these concepts.
It's like saying dictionaries are sexist, racist and a lot of other things because those words appear in the dictionaries.
Pathfinder even has two deities who are, to some extend, sexists: Erastil has some outdated opinions that can be considered chauvinist, and Asmodeus just straight up claims that women are inferior.
Doesn't mean that Paizo thinks the same (with a female CEO, that would be weird, anyway). They can discuss these things without being sexist themselves.
So they think that alternating between he and she is the right thing to do. Just because Asmodeus's favourite spell is Power Word Go Make Me A Sandwich Woman doesn't mean they're hypocrites for not being sexists themselves.
Sure, the game has demons, devils, degenerate rapist giant-kin, murder and lots and lots of things, but that doesn't mean that the authors are all for worshipping demons, raping people to death, and whathaveyou. They do not endorse these concepts.
I am not saying they ENDORSE these concepts as a way of life. I am saying that they/us spend hours emersed in this game full of gory and graphic and even rauchy stuff...and we have a blast. Now after all that we are offended by a writing style of he/his? I don't buy that for ONE SECOND. Sorry. It is bologne. More likly it is a nod to the political correct crowd just to sell a few more copies....which may be a smart business decision...I don't know.
It is still silly and distracting.
Sure, the game has demons, devils, degenerate rapist giant-kin, murder and lots and lots of things, but that doesn't mean that the authors are all for worshipping demons, raping people to death, and whathaveyou. They do not endorse these concepts.
I am not saying they ENDORSE these concepts as a way of life. I am saying that they/us spend hours emersed in this game full of gory and graphic and even rauchy stuff...and we have a blast. Now after all that we are offended by a writing style of he/his? I don't buy that for ONE SECOND. Sorry. It is bologne. More likly it is a nod to the political correct crowd just to sell a few more copies....which may be a smart business decision...I don't know.
It is still silly and distracting.
I can introduce you to many, many people who would think you are an incensitive, sexist jerk based off of your last couple posts. I don't, and partially agree with you that they are getting offended by something that should not give offense. But I have many friends who do care about things like this, and the fact that a company does this maters to them.
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Creative Director
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Then I have to ask if "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" is an error, or an exception out of respect to tradition?For our Pathfinder style, the word "orcish" is a grammatical error itself, by the way.
We don't use "-ish" at the end of any of our races to make adjectives. We generally just use the name of the race.
It's an exception of of respect to tradition.
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Creative Director
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You work on a game that includes Asmodeus the Prince of Darkness as a prominent diety and using only he/his is offensive to you...really?
Serisouly, the idea of doing all male iconics was never on the table-and not only because I find that fundamentally narrow-minded and offensive.
Yup. Absolutely.
It's pretty hard to offend me by including devils.
It's pretty easy to offend me by being misogynistic.
The fact that Hell and devils in Pathfinder are misogynistic, on the other hand, does NOT offend me. That helps me to regard Hell as a bad place.
Prejudice exists. Misguided or Bad people are prejudice. That doesnt make it OK. The game has characters, monsters, nations, and religions that do bad things. They are generally bad. They are there to be the bad guys. How does their existance remove the need to avoid those bad things in paizo's writing? I still don't understand why it's distracting (except maybe the one guy who didnt realize witches could be male due to the mythology of witches being a word for women exclusively and the use of the pronoun she). Its a simple and reasonable convention that is a middle ground between most possible oppinions on the subject.
DGRM44...so you want the books to say his/he all the time right?
English has a gender-neutral pronoun: he. Unless "he" is referring to a specific, masculine antecedent, it's gender-neutral. By contrast, "she" is always feminine, regardless of circumstance.
But that's silly. "He" is masculine. It's been used as gender-neutral in the past, true, but that doesn't make it correct. If general usage dictates grammar*, English is in trouble. For that would mean I must, by general usage, start using "irregardless" when I mean "regardless", and "hopefully" when I mean "it is to be hoped".
I may be alone in this, but using "he" as gender-neutral is silly. It implies a masculine gender, whatever its author intends. Granted, a hundred years ago it didn't, but...
*--Which it does seem dictate. Doesn't mean I have to like it. :)
"He" doesn't inherently mean masculine, feminine, neuter or anything. It means what we make it mean because it's a human construct, not an elemental truth. For now, many of us have decided that it can be masculine or gender-neutral.
Still, if you dislike he-neuters then start using zhe and zhim and be the change you want to see in the world.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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English has a gender-neutral pronoun: he. Unless "he" is referring to a specific, masculine antecedent, it's gender-neutral. By contrast, "she" is always feminine, regardless of circumstance. Which is why it annoys me when people referring to individuals of unspecified gender alternate between "he" and "she." Technically speaking, in that situation, "he" is gender-neutral and "she" is feminine. So the text is specifically calling attention to the inclusion of females but saying nothing whatsoever about the possible inclusion of males.
30 years ago, you'd have a leg to stand on, Epic. But English usage has changed (many would say, progressed) beyond that. Consulting a number of the grammar and usage goobs around my desk here, we're concluding that every resolution is rife with political weight:
- If you use he and him all the time, you cast yourself as a conservative Patriarch.
- If you use she and her all the time, you cast yourself as a militant revolutionary / feminist.
- If you use they and them, you have to convince people that you're doing so deliberately, and that you do understand that pronouns have number.
- If you use he or she and him or her, you bloat your work with unnecessary words.
- If you alternate between genders, you are admitting that you understand that every hypothetical person has a gender and that half of them are women, but you run the risk of confusing the reader if you don't keep consistent among pronouns relating to the same hypothetical character.
In particular you can no longer claim that choosing to use just male pronouns is the same as not taking a stand on the issue of gender equity.
I'll ** spoiler omitted **
Love the Firefly reference. :)
I find the use of the iconic-appropriate pronoun to be a really good approach.
'He' is NOT gender-neutral; it furthers the notion of woman as 'other' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other#The_Other_in_gender_studies)
I applaud Paizo's take on gender pronouns, it's a real positive in my book.
In particular you can no longer claim that choosing to use just male pronouns is the same as not taking a stand on the issue of gender equity.
Wow, I guess in some small part of me I must be a bad person who hates women because I started this thread.
I suppose that by using he and she the reader is becoming a more rounded person and more loving of all genders in the world. In some small way we are educating people above their prejudices and making the world a brighter and happier place to live. Then we play as a group of evil half-orcs and hack the innocent elves to BITS! GRRRRRR!!
Makes perfect sense to me....yea right.
It's pretty easy to offend me by being misogynistic.
You include the exclusive use of he/his in literature works as part of the definition of misogynistic? Whatever, I don't believe that. Your saying that because your boss is a woman and you are sucking up. Typical brown noser! :-)
English has a gender-neutral pronoun: he.
No, "he" is most definitely masculine.
It's really easy for a male to say "'he' is gender neutral."
Just as it's really easy for a female to say, "this entire book doesn't have one feminine pronoun, I guess they don't think women will read this."
I don't mind the 50-50 approach to gender in the game. I like it. I hated the she only usage in 3.5 edition. Man, i had to look up some stuff in 3e sourcebooks and i was thoroughly pissed at the book without knowing wy until i realized it's the no he in the book.
There was no she only usage in 3.5 (and I doubt it was in 3e either).
Here is some links to pictures of the iconics in 3.5 and a bit of text from the relevant classes.
Half-orc barbarian Krusk
A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet.
Gnome bard Gimble
A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.
Human cleric Jozan
A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deity’s weapon as a bonus feat.
Elf druid Vadania
A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
Dwarf fighter Tordek
*no gender specific statement in SRD*
Human monk Ember
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Human paladin Alhandra
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Elf ranger Soveliss
Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
Halfling rogue Lidda
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
Human sorcerer Hennet
Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Elf wizard Mialee
Armor of any type interferes with a wizard’s movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
So we see that WotC already did the tie pronoun to the gender (though admittedly it can be hard to tell for Mialee) of the iconic (which I am happy to see Paizo following suit), and there were a mix of genders(6 males & 5 females), they were not all female, unlike how some have claimed.
In fact, the very error mentioned in the OP was due to PF switching the gender of the iconic barbarian.
I don't mind the 50-50 approach to gender in the game. I like it. I hated the she only usage in 3.5 edition. Man, i had to look up some stuff in 3e sourcebooks and i was thoroughly pissed at the book without knowing wy until i realized it's the no he in the book.
The preponderance of "she" in the 3E books is because the default character for any example is Lidda the rogue, who's a female.
Wow, I guess in some small part of me I must be a bad person who hates women because I started this thread.
I don't think so. When I read the original post, it was regarding the use of both "he" and "she" to refer to the same iconic. That is an "editing error", not an issue of gender. The topic spun off from there into gender-neutral pronouns.
Now, if you had argued that all of Paizo's books should use "he", then perhaps I'd agree with your being a bad person who hates women. But then, were that the case, I'd not be posting a reply. So, you're good. :)
As an aside, I applaud Paizo's gender neutrality and balance. Their choice in such matters is one of a dozen reasons why I enjoy and tout their products to all and sundry. Carry on, Paizo!
"He" doesn't inherently mean masculine, feminine, neuter or anything. It means what we make it mean because it's a human construct, not an elemental truth.
Are we going to start a philosophy thread, now? Come, let us ponder the meaning of "shoe", and how it relates to apples and the human condition. :)
And while I enjoy the prospect of creating words, I dare say it would merely annoy readers. Unless Stephen Colbert started using it. Then maybe recognition would set in. :)
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You include the exclusive use of he/his in literature works as part of the definition of misogynistic? Whatever, I don't believe that. Your saying that because your boss is a woman and you are sucking up. Typical brown noser! :-)
It's pretty easy to offend me by being misogynistic.
You did catch that James said that the use of the male pronoun in that sentence was a mistake, right?
Just to turn what you have been saying back, to give you perspective. By your own logic you find any use of the female pronoun distracting unless absolutely necessary. Is that correct?
Graywulfe
English has a gender-neutral pronoun: he.No, "he" is most definitely masculine.
It's really easy for a male to say "'he' is gender neutral."
Just as it's really easy for a female to say, "this entire book doesn't have one feminine pronoun, I guess they don't think women will read this."
Wait wait wait wait wait! You're saying that actual women have read Paizo stuff? I didn't know you made cook books!
@Hama: I disagree. Not everyone is sexist. I, for example, am 100% completely non-sexist!
;-P