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I've read it and I like the idea, but for me there is still a big problem.
Why should I take "offensive training" or "defensive training" for my character? I can get "strong" or "dextrous" instead.
I tried to use this for my Magus and planning the next levels, but every time i'll end with increasing the attributes before choosing these weapon or armor bonuses
For example:
lvl3: +1 to all saves
lvl4: offensive or defensive training +1
lvl5: +2 primary attribute (str)
lvl6: +2 secondary attribute (con or int)
lvl7: +3 to all saves
lvl8: +2 secondary attributes(con or int)
lvl9: improved offensive or defensive training +2
lvl10: +4 primary attribute (str)
lvl11: +4 secondary attribute (con or int)
lvl12: + 4 secondary attribute (con or int)I really like the whole idea, but at the moment it is no working for me. Maybe with some restrictions, at which level you can take another improvement to the attributes or something.
Ooh, and I am sorry for my bad english :)
If someone wants to go all stats I am fine with that. A magus who has alot of stats they are worried about probably would do that, maybe a monk too. But a strength fighter in fullplate isnt going to have much use for more dex, but the offensive training would further boost his attack and damage. Just like magic items allow you to spread the bonuses around at a slightly higher cost instead of focusing in on one ability, you can do that here.
Your magus might want int, and then str (or dex if he is a finese fighter) but then you wouldnt be able to further add to attack and damage without taking offensive training (untill 10th level). So you can certainly spread things around if you want, but it will lower your overall to hit and damage then if you took offensive training.
Just brainstorming here, but what if you somehow combined the "loot" and "innate bonuses" ideas, so maybe you still have to discover arcane reagents or magic gems/herbs/snails/etc. in order to unlock your innate abilities through some in-game rituals or something? That way you get the joy of finding new loot, the ability to upgrade your character in-game instead of just when you level, and still get away from the christmas tree effect.I was going to implement a very similar mechanic to this until recently. Our gaming group in which i am not GMing gains magic points to spend on magic item-like effects in a similar fashion as a regular game uses gold.
We get very little loot.And that, my friend is a problem. Finding loot is very rewarding feeling, if you dont get any or only very little, you start feeling that your adventuring is pointless. You just don't get anything out of it. Yeah there is XP, level-ups and the bonuses you subsequently get instead of magic items. But it just doesn't feel the same as cracking open a treasure chest and finding a magic sword inside....
Some players even NEED the kick of finding cool new gear regularly.
I am not sure this actually gets away from the problem. They would NEED these magic regents. I would have to find rational reasons to put them in the adventure and work to make sure the players got the regents they needed and wanted. They would in turn be valuable in any rational society and would be bought and sold in towns. All you do is trade 'magic item' for 'arcane reagent', the effect is the same.
I am not sure this actually gets away from the problem. They would NEED these magic regents. I would have to find rational reasons to put them in the adventure and work to make sure the players got the regents they needed and wanted. They would in turn be valuable in any rational society and would be bought and sold in towns. All you do is trade 'magic item' for 'arcane reagent', the effect is the same.
True. I was thinking more about universal reagents rather than specific reagents for certain abilities, not that that solves the "sold-in-town" part. I'm personally looking more for ways to eliminate the "constant discarding of magic items in favor of new ones" and "magic golfclub bags full of magic swords" aspects of the system, but I see your point. Like I said, totally just brainstorming. For what it's worth, I like your system, especially as it still leaves room for random magic items.
What about a hybrid solution.
The scaling "+n" bonuses that are expected are automatic and tied to the level of the character using the item.
The obvious are weapons and armor. (Which also need the most rewriting as you would need to remove pricing by "+" and use strictly flat costs.)
What I mean is the same sword would be a +1 in the hands of a 3rd level character, but a +3 in the hands of a 12th level character. Make the special abilities flat price instead of "+" pricing.Extend that to the other scaling bonuses. All magic cloaks grant a resistance bonus dependent on the level of the character wearing it.
This allows you to have the flavorful magic items and keep the expected scaling "+n" bonuses. It also means the player can keep that same magic sword from level 1-20 without falling behind the power curve.
You still have the classic magic items, get more colorful variety in them, break the upgrade cycle, and tie the power scale to character level instead of the items themselves, breaking out of the wealth=power cycle. All without having to re-balance encounters or giving inexplicable inherent bonuses for leveling to characters.
This is a lot like Weapons of Legacy. I loved that supplement a lot but it really didn't get much loving because of the penalties associated with it.
By the way, I play in Kolo's group. I run a Kingmaker campaign and I mostly don't give out much loot. In fact, I've let the players basically buy off the shelf whatever they want.
In the game Kolo runs, though, I am the party loot-keeper, and I've got one page dedicated to who got what from where and when. 10pt font, 2 columns, and I'm half a page in. It is very, very hard to keep track of everything, especially since we have a 8+GM group size.
And I've never really pointed out this to Kolo before, but there is no way in this system to add special abilities to weapons and armor. I like flaming knives and fortified full plates.
In the game Kolo runs, though, I am the party loot-keeper, and I've got one page dedicated to who got what from where and when. 10pt font, 2 columns, and I'm half a page in. It is very, very hard to keep track of everything, especially since we have a 8+GM group size.
And I've never really pointed out this to Kolo before, but there is no way in this system to add special abilities to weapons and armor. I like flaming knives and fortified full plates.
The idea is that there will still be magic items of this nature, in frequent and special. Ignus the flamming sword, will be just a sword with the Flamming property, no +X, or Night Blade the wounding dagger, and it could be something the character might keep for his whole career because he could keep adding +X from the training. It could be an heirloom passed from father to sun, because it in fact stays valuable even to a relatively high level character.
I dont want to remove magic items entirely, i just want to make them rare, so a character might have 2 or 3 over the course of their entire career and never 'trade up' to new ones because they have to.
With all the talk about VoP, I think what you have come up with is the right solution for playing a "lower magic item" campaign.
Great stuff!
Dotting to steal from later. Good stuff.
I had a similar approach that I've been running in a Kingmaker game as a playtest, [url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WPe8mq5VPO7iI33yhJdgXTkWvFrWgz0cLZFqM9ULhow/edit?authkey=COrAh6oB&hl=en_US#]utilizing an extrapolated BoED Vow of Poverty as a baseline. It wasn't a pick-and-choose thing like yours is, and there's still magic items, but I'm trying to make them a bit more special. It's been popular enough, but I dislike having to reference the chart whenever characters level. I'm intrigued by your approach, most certainly. Not sure if I'm intrigued enough to shell out about $12 for the .pdfs just to get the full effect, but I may utilize this approach in the future instead.
Disciple of Sakura:
So your system has been play-tested, so to speak? Off-hand, it looks interesting and like it might well work, so I was curious how well it works out in practice. Having to check the chart when leveling up seems like a minor inconvenience. It's certainly no worse than having to recalculate everything when you buy new equipment.
Disciple of Sakura:
So your system has been play-tested, so to speak? Off-hand, it looks interesting and like it might well work, so I was curious how well it works out in practice. Having to check the chart when leveling up seems like a minor inconvenience. It's certainly no worse than having to recalculate everything when you buy new equipment.
It's been working alright, I suppose. I have to keep hammering it home to one of my veteran players that, even though they have a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage at level 6, it's not Magic, so it doesn't help with overcoming DR. That requires the "Magic" enhancement for a weapon (cost = 2,000 gp).
It does mean that there's a lot more weapons with special abilities running around, as we decided to waive the cost of the initial +1 that most weapons require. The swordsage/psychic warrior already has a Charging Lance and Magebane Greataxe, for example. Which makes his weapons a bit more potent. On the other hand, that's almost all the magical gear in the party, as I've been kind of stingy with big magic items and raw gold to compensate for the inherent bonuses they're getting.
It's still a work in progress - I think it'd be easier if I wasn't running a module wherein I have to keep adjusting treasure rewards. In a game I was running, it'd be easier to accomplish, maybe. While I like weapons with special abilities, I think there may be something to be said for requiring the "magic" enhancement to be put onto a weapon before special abilities anyway, though it does mean that DR x/Magic actually means something again at mid-high levels, unless the PCs have invested in that particular enhancement, so that might be an adequate trade-off.
We've been using it since we started Kingmaker, but the PCs just hit 6th level, so I'm still getting a feel for the whole thing, generally speaking.
For a lower magic item setting, rather than give players bonuses corresponding to levels, something I am going to try, is have attributes become more flexible.
So yes, +1 every four levels, but more than that. Work it into the rewards, but also use it as a mechanic of realism.
Say a fighter is particularly active, dungeons, training, etc. After a while, grant them a +1 to str or con due to their high activity. If a player isn't using down time effectively or usefully, their bonuses may not go up, they may go down.
Also, if a player stagnates in an area, start to pull back attributes. So if a 14 con wizard does very little exercise over a month, con goes to 13.
As attributes move round, let it be known this is a temporary change, but that it becomes permanent if the player keeps at it. So if the wiz goes down to 13, then increases exercise and activity, back up to 14 he goes.
I think more flexible stats can be really cool. Less fixed, less modified by items, more related to experiences and drive. If a halfling bard doesn't train at all but talks to everybody and advances the plot through hurrying around, +1 charisma from interaction experience.
Eventually you will get to a level where it will feel right. Maybe a lumberjack barbarian sits right at a 21 strength, but can't find much more to go higher than this. Then, they may emphasise other areas to continued benefit. Moar roleplaying. ;)
I love the idea of magic weapons/armor being a bigger deal. I've thought for a long time that I'd like to make them all have a story and name attached, but it was never manageable with them being so abundant.
LOVE THIS!! (swipes)
Another thing that can be added, or used alone, or whatever, is from 3.5. I remember a article in Dragon, or was it in a book, can never remember and been looking for it for ages, was using Exp to add bonuses to gear. Spend X in exp, and gain X bonus.
I always liked it, and now that I am designing a low class lvl based world, and it's more grittier and I want magic to carry it's own hazards, I am liking this approach to the Magic-Mart problem that is inherit in the basic approach of handing out loot.
PS: If anyone knows where I can find that article, or post a link or such, would be much appreciated. (to the spending of exp for bonuses.) Been looking for ages and can't find it atm.
Dotting this to steal later
Dotting to steal a lot of these ideas for later.
Seriously. Were I no half asleep I may actually go through the hassle... But I think I found an excellent hybrid of nearly all the suggestions I've read (which is everything above this post) to fit a campaign I'm working on...
Something somewhere between the OP's original idea (minus the SGG archetypes since I don't know them), mystic reagents and what not for rituals to increase one's power (though about the rarity of, say, +5 vorpal wounding scythe [I know it's not possible by normal rules means!], so not sold in towns), extra ability points, and magic weapons/armor without the +X but with the weapon qualities (and some way, probably rituals via above, to add some more stuff, like slayer bonuses vs creatures because the blade has cut down [killed, not ko'd] x creatures of x type), and my personal usage of bonus quest feat rewards (survive a haunted house? get a feat for +2 vs fear) and achievement bonuses (typically slayer bonuses, particularly epic skill usages, solving a bunch of puzzles, etc)....
I need sleep, I'll have to work on that tomorrow...
WONDERFUL, FABULOUS, FANTASTICAL THREAD!
this is just nitpicking, but why not call an enhancement bonus what it is?
because having +5 training bonus on your weapon does nothing against DR, is this wanted (so that people actually give a damn if that dagger is silver or adamantine) or is it just assumed to still pierce DR?
Apart from this little thingy, very nice plan, I'd love to play with such a houserule. And "normal" magic weapons don't need that +1 then I guess?
Also you give monks a good buff, nice of you.
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this is just nitpicking, but why not call an enhancement bonus what it is?
because having +5 training bonus on your weapon does nothing against DR, is this wanted (so that people actually give a damn if that dagger is silver or adamantine) or is it just assumed to still pierce DR?
I think calling it "training bonus" is an ingenious solution. It still makes magic weapons special and it comes in handy to have that cold iron attleaxe you found last session.
I'm working on that too. I think that I will give you something on next days, but idk if I'll give so much power to characters. I think that characters are really strong, dunno if they need another empowerment (except for ST, they are low).
I love this idea, dotting for further perusing when I get home
I think calling it "training bonus" is an ingenious solution. It still makes magic weapons special and it comes in handy to have that cold iron attleaxe you found last session.this is just nitpicking, but why not call an enhancement bonus what it is?
because having +5 training bonus on your weapon does nothing against DR, is this wanted (so that people actually give a damn if that dagger is silver or adamantine) or is it just assumed to still pierce DR?
Pretty much this. What things are called is important to me. I like it when things we say in rules can be reasonably mentioned in game. I have extensive training with longswords, that makes sense in character. I have an enhancement bonus with longswords? Nonsensical. I really prefer there to be as little meta as possible in the rules, and most if not all of it to be able to be expressed through clear and meaningful connections to the world and the flavor which they are supposed to describe.
Magic should be special, and if players are worried about dr, there are lots of options available to them from special materials to spells like magic weapon. I find that both of those are completely glossed over in the current game because they have been replaced by +x weapons. A big part of what I want is magic items to be special again, and that means not giving away something that should make them special (getting through dr/magic).
Im working on that too. I think that I will give you something on next days, but idk if I'll give so much power to characters. I think that characters are really strong, dunno if they need another empowerment (except for ST, they are low).
The purpose of this is to replace the power of the magic items assumed in the wealth by level chart. Certainly for some people and some groups opinions will vary on whether or not that is too much or too little or just right, but that is a different matter entirely. It is without question that a 10th level character with 62,000 gp in magical gear is more powerful and likely more versatile then the same character with 2,000 gp in gear.
The objective is to replace that lost power. Dialing up or down the power level of your overall campaign is a completely different issue, and one far more complicated because of the simple variation in power between characters based on choices made. Even the same character class will differ vastly in power with different choices of feats, spells, talents etc.
By the way as an update, my game has been going well so far with the rules mentioned in the OP, we are running through slumbering tsar by frog god games, which is certainly not an easy adventure, but I have felt like the challenges are about as difficult as I expected them to be with the characters involved. I am pleased so far, not only in the pace of the game, but also that I do not have to count every copper peice my players find and hope it is distributed fairly. I also dont have to worry about story based issues that might cost the players money, also costing the players capability.
For example in the campaign, it is clear that the inhabitants of the settlement they deal with are trying to cheat them out of every possible bit of money they can. It is providing an interesting atmosphere for the game and has created some interesting roleplay, but there isnt that player dm tension that occurs then the dm starts stabbing at the gear they need to be good at their respective areas of expertise. Things like that have always been a point of tension in rpgs, but can make for interesting stories, being imprisoned as gladiators for instance, or the press ganging on the upcomming skull and shackles path. I can do that as a dm without worrying that my players wont be able to do much without their equipement, because with very basic equipment (taken from a fallen prison guard for instance) the players are just as effective or close to as effective with their ancestral sword of awesome.
I like it. It seems well thought out and highly workable especially as you get one every level after 3rd.
I agree - it looks perfectly workable.
I too am a huge proponent of keeping the magical, well... magical. Every magic item my players get (apart from trinkets and baubles, is unique and has some sort of history and I don't bother on figuring out coasts becuse every one of them is priceless. At most, my characters tend to have 3-5 items each, some minor, a couple major.
One of the things I often do with major magic items is have them develop witht he character, gaining enhancement and or abilities bonuses every so many levels.
Bjolimir
Greatsword +1
When the character's BAB reaches +5, the sword gains a +2 enhancement and grants the feat Improved Sunder.
At BAB +10, it gains a +3 enhancement and grants the feat Greater Sunder.
At BAB +15 it gains a +4 enhancement and when sundering gains an additional +2 enhancement and deals an extra 2d6 damage.
Ok so a few premises:
-I dont have a problem with a high magic world. I like magic, and wizards and clerics slinging around the powers of the universe is all fine by me.
-I dont like the reliance characters have on magic items. Like many others I want magic items to feel special, and become a part of a characters history, not something more akin to an article of clothing, to be replaced often and without concern. I want to find a way to make magic items rare and special.
-I do believe that without magic items a lot of additional adjustment is required on the part of the dm. Erasing the magic mart mentality has never been easy both mechanically and in the hearts and minds of players. I want to find a way to do it without having to re-write the book and without penalyzing my players.For a while now I have been considering what to do about this. And though this is for a specific campaign, if it works it may be a permanent change in my games. My solution has two parts. First is an idea borrowed from a poster here on these boards with some minor tweaks (thanks Brodiggan Gale).
** spoiler omitted **...
This is an interesting approach, though you're referencing some things I haven't seen @ all (super genius archetypes, e.g.) so I can't really speak to them.
My method for cutting down on ridiculous swag levels has been simply to let players know that we're in a low-magic campaign: no one will be selling any magic items, very few will be found as loot, and what is there to be found will rarely be medium level. "If you really want (x), someone in the party needs to make it."
Suddenly, those bonus wizard feats get used for item creation feats instead of metamagic (an idea I have roundly hated since it was introduced).
I've had a few people bow out of such a campaign, but on the whole -- since the XP costs got cut out (yay) -- it has worked out pretty well. And having items "handmade" by you or your adventuring buddy does tend to make them special.
I've also been pleasantly surprised by the unique ideas my players have dreamed up for items to make; when they don't have the "magic mart" to fall back on, they can come up with some great ideas.
This is an interesting approach, though you're referencing some things I haven't seen @ all (super genius archetypes, e.g.) so I can't really speak to them.
My method for cutting down on ridiculous swag levels has been simply to let players know that we're in a low-magic campaign: no one will be selling any magic items, very few will be found as loot, and what is there to be found will rarely be medium level. "If you really want (x), someone in the party needs to make it."
Suddenly, those bonus wizard feats get used for item creation feats instead of metamagic (an idea I have roundly hated since it was introduced).
I've had a few people bow out of such a campaign, but on the whole -- since the XP costs got cut out (yay) -- it has worked out pretty well. And having items "handmade" by you or your adventuring buddy does tend to make them special.
I've also been pleasantly surprised by the unique ideas my players have dreamed up for items to make; when they don't have the "magic mart" to fall back on, they can come up with some great ideas.
This is one approach but it doesnt really address the heart of the problem, that so much of character's ability can be tied up in magic items. And it forces characters to take specific feats in order to try and compensate for it, which I dont believe in.
@Kolo
Well, the NPC opponents are laboring under the same limitations, and I do adjust DCs to match the scaled-down possible range of checks, so they (the PCs) can do perfectly well without any magic gadgets at all, if they don't want to take item crafting feats. I think the relative lack of magic items does address the heart of the problem; ability can't be tied up in what's not there...
But your system looks like it addresses that problem without cutting down on the "standard" power level of characters -- just internalizing the item buffage, as it were. It's a nifty alternative. Kudos.
An excellent contribution to the forums. I'll consider telling my DM about it.
I think that this point should be managed in the equipment guide. Not only new items but rules to play without it.
@Kolo
Well, the NPC opponents are laboring under the same limitations, and I do adjust DCs to match the scaled-down possible range of checks, so they (the PCs) can do perfectly well without any magic gadgets at all, if they don't want to take item crafting feats. I think the relative lack of magic items does address the heart of the problem; ability can't be tied up in what's not there...
I dont doubt for a moment that a knowledgable dm can scale things up or down to match any power level. If you can do that, like in your game its barely an issue. But it is alot of work, you cant just pull a monster out of the bestiary at higher levels or an npc out of a module/adventure. It takes up more time away from the table. As I get older I find more and more the need to limit how much prep time my adventures require.
But your system looks like it addresses that problem without cutting down on the "standard" power level of characters -- just internalizing the item buffage, as it were. It's a nifty alternative. Kudos.
Pretty much what I was trying to do. If the game is going to assume they have these abilities, let them have them. Then they can be paupers or billionairs as the story requires, and a magic sword can be truly magical again, without worrying how much +x bonus it has.
I think that this point should be managed in the equipment guide. Not only new items but rules to play without it.
I really hope so, but I am not overly confident. Paizo has a solid history of wanting us to work it out for ourselves. I am not sure if they will actually hand us a viable system to scale up or down the wealth in our games. I'd be really glad if they did, but I wont hold my breath.
Lol ok :)
I'll tell you what i'm doing about that in my next campaing.
I decided to play in forgotten realms, during a new time of disorder.
Mystra is dead, and her "tears", a sort of crystal that comes from the partial distruption of magical web, are used by adventurer with some experience to create magic items.
A piece of that crystal in the sword hilt will give the ability to bypass DR/magic. The rest should be done with materials, or maybe with some blessings, etc, but this only to damage reduction. Every enanchment is done by artisans, but i'll not give normal magic items. I'm trying to avoid the +1 system, that let magic gear give features that are taken with level. It's not easy to explain, i hope it's clear :)
Then special materials will make weapons or gear do strange thing. It will be important not enchanting things but finding a special gem, killing some monsters, obtaining a divinity favor, etc. I will not make fixed rules for this, every item or special ability given should be decided between GM and players. Obviously this need to be managed differently if someone want to make a rule to put in a book and selling it.
I like this idea quite a bit.
Dotted to continue to follow.
dotted.
I had an alternate thing going on like this with my AoW game, but it was actually designed to up the power of the PCs while ridding them of the stat boosting items by keeping the treasure the same, but banning the items and handing out level-based boosts. It worked out well, but since I had several other things in place to boost the PCs it's hard to say how that alone would affect normal PCs.
I'm using a similar system, and I added a piece to hep me run it. When running an adventure that ISN'T based on thee ewe rules ( all of them), I do the following:
Gold is halved
Treasure with plusses becomes MW gear.
The rest can stay.
I find my players still use potions and scrolls and wands, but are glad not to have to sweat the rest.
Yes this would without question call for a change in the way you place treasure. Magic items would only come in specific places where the story needs them, perhaps only as 'quest items' where the players specifically seek them out. And money would be considerably less. Probably less then 10% of normal wealth levels. Though starting and 2nd level I would probably leave as normal.Do you modify the value of placed treasure in adventures then?
I'm running, and AP, should I just remove all of the placed "big six" items and leave the remainder and it should work out ok?
BTW, this looks awesome, and I really love the "feat-like" approach. Definitely considering this for my campaign and I will be watching this thread.
I was going to implement a very similar mechanic to this until recently. Our gaming group in which i am not GMing gains magic points to spend on magic item-like effects in a similar fashion as a regular game uses gold.
We get very little loot.And that, my friend is a problem. Finding loot is very rewarding feeling, if you dont get any or only very little, you start feeling that your adventuring is pointless. You just don't get anything out of it. Yeah there is XP, level-ups and the bonuses you subsequently get instead of magic items. But it just doesn't feel the same as cracking open a treasure chest and finding a magic sword inside.
Now I can understand that finding magic stuff like sand on a beach takes away from that too, but that doesn't mean you have to all but eliminate magic items.
Limit them yes, but only slightly. Players will feel much better if they don't have to wade through dungeon after dungeon without finding so much as their next breakfast worth of treasure.
Some players even NEED the kick of finding cool new gear regularly.
I think there is a happy medium. Our group tends to play in a 'low-magic' camapign, but that certainly does not mean 'non-magical'... what it really means is there isn't the opportunity to go to town and buy whatever random magical items they desire, nor do bad guys have random magic items on them to be pocketed and sold at a later date.
In a recent campaign we ran, just to use an example, after the characters finished a particularly difficult quest for the elves, they were rewarded with cloack such as those worn by the elite guard of the Elven Queen (though that's not what she was called) - they equated to Cloaks of Resistance +2 that provided a permanent Endure Elements effect. A half-elven female Bard who had had a romantic interlude was gifted with a flower from a very special tree which, when worn in her hair granted a +4 bonus to all Charisma and Charisma-based skill checks and a small intricately carved wooden box to keep it in, enchanted to hold anything placed there in permanent stasis. Finally, for returning a powerful elven weapon which was discovered and used during the campaign, they were gifted with mithril ingots equivalent to 10,000 gp worth of armor, shield or weapons. Of course, they would have to find a smith capable of working the metal once they discovered exactly what they wanted crafted from it, and it was a sellable treasure if they could find a buyer for it. They were 5th level at the time of these awards.
We also use 25 point builds to help off-set the lack of magic a little bit. Characters are generally well-built and well-played.
Lol ok :)
I'll tell you what i'm doing about that in my next campaing.
I decided to play in forgotten realms, during a new time of disorder.
Mystra is dead, and her "tears", a sort of crystal that comes from the partial distruption of magical web, are used by adventurer with some experience to create magic items.
A piece of that crystal in the sword hilt will give the ability to bypass DR/magic. The rest should be done with materials, or maybe with some blessings, etc, but this only to damage reduction. Every enanchment is done by artisans, but i'll not give normal magic items. I'm trying to avoid the +1 system, that let magic gear give features that are taken with level. It's not easy to explain, i hope it's clear :)
Then special materials will make weapons or gear do strange thing. It will be important not enchanting things but finding a special gem, killing some monsters, obtaining a divinity favor, etc. I will not make fixed rules for this, every item or special ability given should be decided between GM and players. Obviously this need to be managed differently if someone want to make a rule to put in a book and selling it.
We also make use of 'levelable' weapons so that characters retain them throughout their careers... one example was a Greatsword +1 which at 4th level gained another +1 and granted the feat Improved Sunder, at 8th level gained another +1 and granted the feat Greater Sunder and at 12th level yet another +1 and the feat Sundering Strike. Better by far in my opinion than a +1 sword sold to buy a +2 sword sold to buy a +3 Keen sword sold to buy a +2 sword of Speed and so on. The weapon has a name and a history which the character becomes a part of. We also use weapons with drawbacks - one character found a +4 dagger very early on (level 3, actually), but every time it was used in combat a Will save had to be made (DC 20) or the character became subject to a Geas effect that essentially disallows him from using any other weapon or letting the dagger leave his possession for even a moment. When he fell victim to the Geas, he gained an additional +4 to saves vs. charm or compulsion effects, but suffered -4 AC due to aggressiveness in combat. The Geas could only be removed through a Remove Curse or Wish spell.
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Just remove permanite magic items from the game. Adjust cr down one for every 4 levels. Mostly fight other humanoids who also don't have magic items. Provide bonuses for character background when fighting appropriate enemies. the adventure should be based on the characters and the people they care about.
Gain Skilled followers.
I think there is a happy medium. Our group tends to play in a 'low-magic' camapign, but that certainly does not mean 'non-magical'... what it really means is there isn't the opportunity to go to town and buy whatever random magical items they desire, nor do bad guys have random magic items on them to be pocketed and sold at a later date.
Dont confuse low magic with low magic items. I dont intend this to be a solution for a true low magic campaign. Casters have the same role and presense in my game as they do with the core rules. I just dont want my players reliant on magic gear.
That there is nothing wrong with not having 'magic marts' where you can sell off or buy all sorts of gear, but without some kind of mechanism to do some of this, the existing wealth system breaks down. If I have 20 +1 swords, I dont really have 40,000 gp in usable magic items. I have 2,000. And that ofcourse is a problem.
We also make use of 'levelable' weapons so that characters retain them throughout their careers... one example was a Greatsword +1 which at 4th level gained another +1 and granted the feat Improved Sunder, at 8th level gained another +1 and granted the feat Greater Sunder and at 12th level yet another +1 and the feat Sundering Strike. Better by far in my opinion than a +1 sword sold to buy a +2 sword sold to buy a +3 Keen sword sold to buy a +2 sword of Speed and so on. The weapon has a name and a history which the character becomes a part of. We also use weapons with drawbacks - one character found a +4 dagger very early on (level 3, actually), but every time it was used in combat a Will save had to be made (DC 20) or the character became subject to a Geas effect that essentially disallows him from using any other weapon or letting the dagger leave his possession for even a moment. When he fell victim to the Geas, he gained an additional +4 to saves vs. charm or compulsion effects, but suffered -4 AC due to aggressiveness in combat. The Geas could only be removed through a Remove Curse or Wish spell.
Things like this have been around for a while, legacy weapons were a 3.5 example. But to be honest this only adresses a very small part of the problem. The characters are still reliant on magical gear, and are less a hero then a weapons platform for their magic trinkets. That doesn't really strike me as all that heroic. I am also not a fan of weapons with unexpected 'drawbacks'. It is kind of a backhand shot at the players where you give a 'reward' that actually hinders them in some way. They dont have a place in my game, and I dont really like it when others use it.
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Don't forget the reward of making new npc friends, influencing the game world and plot. Loots are just tools and as the game progresses the tools you use should be better, npcs lvl easily and can have a large impact on playing.
The sword can help you kill the monsters in the mine, or the engineer and geographer can seal it and find a new mine. The world is more than hack and slash, it can easily live with less adventuring and more organizing. Combat will still happen but it is less of the pile all the mobs in to x so the pcs can level in one day.
I love the ideas here and also don't like the christmas tree effect. I would love to see some Paizo-take on play without (standard) magic items. It seems there are a lot of players (at least online) who would appreciate that.
Maybe as part of a world-builder's guide book or sth. similar.
I liked the Conan-RPG, but there it was easier to achieve, because they only had one limited/special magic-using class.
I love this idea and I plan to try it when I run Skull & Shackles but I have one question:
What item is the "Magical Training" supposed to replace?
I understand the others replace "+x weapons/armor" and stat boot items, I just don't know what item is being replaced by the "Magical Training".
Ok, I felt I needed to make an account to post on here.
First of all, before I say anything else, I actually really like this idea, and think it could work quite well on it's own.
Second of all, however, I think everyone is forgetting one possible alternative to the "Magic Mart" problem: Enhancing your own equipment. Hear me out before you go into auto-pilot and say that's just trading one "Magic Mart" for another.
Ok, say you're playing a character named Bob the Fighter. Pretend he's whatever race you want him to be, and is specialized for Longsword and Shield, with Heavy Armor. At first level, because his DM was nice (or possibly because his DM is actually a sadistic mofo who plans on tossing some hardcore encounters Bob's way), his sword, shield, and armor are all Masterwork.
As time goes on and the campaign advances, Bob never sees a need to 'upgrade' to a different, better sword, shield, and armor. As his DM is running a low-magic-item campaign, this is a good thing, but to keep him competitive when Magic Items ARE handed out, something else happens: He finally reaches a city with an Artificer's Guild with skilled enough artificers to enhance his equipment to keep up with the rest of the group. Or, perhaps alternatively, the group's Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever has some Item Creation feats. In either case, he gives the Artificer or team-member some of his loot-cash, who then uses this to purchase the necessary reagents to conduct the enchanting ritual, granting his weapon the bonus required. As a result, Bob's Masterwork Longsword is now a Masterwork FLAMING longsword.
As the campaign continues, he keeps using this method of enhancing his equipment, and so when the campaign finally reaches the end-game, although he never got the "+1 Sword of Infinity", his own Longsword is competitive with such a weapon thanks to his team-mate or his continued patronage of the Artificer's Guild. His weapon becomes part of his legend when the campaign ends, and becomes an heirloom of his family.
In short, yes, it is A Magic Mart, but I think it makes sense in-game. This approach doesn't need to be used, and I'm not trying to defend the Magic-Item-Glut approach taken by the base game, I'm just presenting an alternative that doesn't require adding anything to the system.
tl;dr: Let players upgrade 'base' equipment as an alternative to them finding magic items like they were grains of sand on the beach.
I love this idea and I plan to try it when I run Skull & Shackles but I have one question:
What item is the "Magical Training" supposed to replace?
I understand the others replace "+x weapons/armor" and stat boot items, I just don't know what item is being replaced by the "Magical Training".
Its meant to mimic implements which come out of the 3rd party product the genius guide to runestaves and wyrdwands. The reason for it is that a purely magical character needed additional options because if they didnt wear armor, or use a shield, they would not have areas where there was nothing to choose due to level restrictions of some of the more generic abilities.
The runestaves and wyrdwands product is one of my favorites :D
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Ok, I felt I needed to make an account to post on here.
First of all, before I say anything else, I actually really like this idea, and think it could work quite well on it's own.
Second of all, however, I think everyone is forgetting one possible alternative to the "Magic Mart" problem: Enhancing your own equipment. Hear me out before you go into auto-pilot and say that's just trading one "Magic Mart" for another.
Ok, say you're playing a character named Bob the Fighter. Pretend he's whatever race you want him to be, and is specialized for Longsword and Shield, with Heavy Armor. At first level, because his DM was nice (or possibly because his DM is actually a sadistic mofo who plans on tossing some hardcore encounters Bob's way), his sword, shield, and armor are all Masterwork.
As time goes on and the campaign advances, Bob never sees a need to 'upgrade' to a different, better sword, shield, and armor. As his DM is running a low-magic-item campaign, this is a good thing, but to keep him competitive when Magic Items ARE handed out, something else happens: He finally reaches a city with an Artificer's Guild with skilled enough artificers to enhance his equipment to keep up with the rest of the group. Or, perhaps alternatively, the group's Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever has some Item Creation feats. In either case, he gives the Artificer or team-member some of his loot-cash, who then uses this to purchase the necessary reagents to conduct the enchanting ritual, granting his weapon the bonus required. As a result, Bob's Masterwork Longsword is now a Masterwork FLAMING longsword.
As the campaign continues, he keeps using this method of enhancing his equipment, and so when the campaign finally reaches the end-game, although he never got the "+1 Sword of Infinity", his own Longsword is competitive with such a weapon thanks to his team-mate or his continued patronage of the Artificer's Guild. His weapon becomes part of his legend when the campaign ends, and becomes an heirloom of his family.
In short, yes, it is A Magic Mart, but I think it makes sense in-game. This approach doesn't need to be used, and I'm not trying to defend the Magic-Item-Glut approach taken by the base game, I'm just presenting an alternative that doesn't require adding anything to the system.tl;dr: Let players upgrade 'base' equipment as an alternative to them finding magic items like they were grains of sand on the beach.
I have for a long time used something like this prior to instituting the alternate system I am working with there. The problem comes in a couple areas.
First of all it doesnt do anything to address the christmas tree effect. Players are still decked out with 6 or 8 magic items that they NEED to do their jobs. They HAVE to have these items. They need to get to that artificer, or the casters need to take the feats, and they need to have the downtime to actually craft these things. That is a whole lot of limitations on the story, and on what the characters can be and do. I dont like that and I dont want it in my game.
In addition it doesn't do anything about the dozens of +1 swords, or +1 rings of protection and other minor statistical boost items that pile up because npc enemies need these things as well, and as the players grow in level they will eventually not have a use for them. They need some way to offload these items, or they are carrying around useless wealth.
And lastly, and somewhat more importantly for me, it does nothing to divorce wealth from power. I HATE that money, gold, gp, loot, is directly equated to power and capability in game. I simply hate it. I hate that something that saves players money needs to be offset, I hate that players feel the need to 'loot the bodies' regardless of circumstance, alignment, personality, or character beliefs because they think they are missing out on power if they dont. I simply want this fact out of my game completely. Money is money, power is power, and rarely shall the two meet. Maybe that dragons hoard will let you hire some mercenaries, but it wont make you personally more powerful in my game.
Alright, another question pops into mind: What about the 'consumable' or 'disposable' magic items? The wands that are only good for upwards of 50 uses and then they burn out? The potions of cure wounds, or Haste? How about that Staff of Fire the Wizard wants? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how it'd be possible to fully escape the "Christmas Tree Effect" or completely get rid of "Magic Mart".
As far as I'm concerned, the best option is to find a viable in-story reason for why such a place exists, hence the "Artificer's Guild". This both helps to preserve the 'flavor' of the setting, and helps to fill a plot hole that might otherwise be created by people wondering where the heck these epic swords you sparingly give out come from, and why the Magical Blacksmiths that create them don't just make a load of less-powerful weapons, sell them, and become billionaires.
One possible in-world explanation for a "Magic Mart" could be a "Merchant's Guild" that works with individual business-minded Wizards and Sorcerors and similar to provide such items to adventurers, soldiers, mercenaries, and anyone else who might want them. As a result, while the "Magic Mart" is still very much around, it has a solid in-world reason to exist.
Also, as far as the whole "Piles of +1 Swords and Rings of Protection", that's just the spoils of war. It's natural, and will occur no matter what, whether they're a "+1 Longsword of Minor Uselessness", a "+5 Falchion of Epic Slaying", or even just a bunch of masterwork weapons you got from that horde of orcs you slew to protect a town. As a result, there will always be a need to offload this equipment. Even if you use this system, how do you prevent your party from just looting the corpses anyway, gathering what meager treasure they can find, and selling that to, eventually, afford some potions of Haste, so the group stands a better chance against a tough boss.
Anyway, with all this said, I do want to say again that I like this system. I'm not trying to tell you that your work is wasted and it will never catch on, because that's an out-and-out lie. I fully support wanting to get rid of the "Christmas Tree Effect". I'm just trying to point out that it's more difficult than it seems, because you're not just trying to change a built-in system, you're also trying to change the mindset of your players. However, if you pull it off right, I think you'll be able to convince the players that patience is indeed a virtue, and reward said patience with the occasional epic new piece of equipment for each of them.
Its meant to mimic implements which come out of the 3rd party product the genius guide to runestaves and wyrdwands. The reason for it is that a purely magical character needed additional options because if they didnt wear armor, or use a shield, they would not have areas where there was nothing to choose due to level restrictions of some of the more generic abilities.I love this idea and I plan to try it when I run Skull & Shackles but I have one question:
What item is the "Magical Training" supposed to replace?
I understand the others replace "+x weapons/armor" and stat boot items, I just don't know what item is being replaced by the "Magical Training".
Thank you for the explanation. I haven't seen the 3rd party products you speak of, but it makes sense now.
This system / concept is really amazing. It's exactly what I've been looking for to fix the magic items issues my players and I have had for years. Thank you for sharing.
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What do you think?
It's 5:53am and I've not been to bed, so maybe I've just been up too long to be thinking clearly, but...
Wouldn't it be simpler to just give everyone a bonus to the staples equal to level/3 for PC classes and level/6 for NPC classes/racial-HD and call it a day; and then use magic items to fill out the party's "special abilities". It would be way simpler, and wouldn't require picking new abilities or juggling archtype stuff.
EDIT: Basically poor man's vow of poverty? At 3rd level you'd get a +1 enhancement bonus to most everything (attack and damage, armor, natural armor, deflection, saving throws, and ability scores). Then increase the bonus by +1 again at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level.
Basically by 18th level you hit +6 in everything.
Alright, another question pops into mind: What about the 'consumable' or 'disposable' magic items? The wands that are only good for upwards of 50 uses and then they burn out? The potions of cure wounds, or Haste? How about that Staff of Fire the Wizard wants? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how it'd be possible to fully escape the "Christmas Tree Effect" or completely get rid of "Magic Mart".
Staves are an extermely rare item in my system, and if a caster desires a simlar effect they can take one of the arcane and divine archetypes that would give them additional casting of a set of spells (much like a staff).
Wands, scrolls, and potions (consumables) all exist in my game, but there are no magic marts, players must create them, or contract someone to create them. And I dont consider consumables part of the christmas tree effect. They are a boon for certain, but they are never a need, its the permanent items that are the christmas tree (literally players lighting up like a christmas tree if you cast detect magic on them). An assortment of potions is not an issue for me.
As far as I'm concerned, the best option is to find a viable in-story reason for why such a place exists, hence the "Artificer's Guild". This both helps to preserve the 'flavor' of the setting, and helps to fill a plot hole that might otherwise be created by people wondering where the heck these epic swords you sparingly give out come from, and why the Magical Blacksmiths that create them don't just make a load of less-powerful weapons, sell them, and become billionaires.
One possible in-world explanation for a "Magic Mart" could be a "Merchant's Guild" that works with individual business-minded Wizards and Sorcerors and similar to provide such items to adventurers, soldiers, mercenaries, and anyone else who might want them. As a result, while the "Magic Mart" is still very much around, it has a solid in-world reason to exist.
By all means do this in your game. But again, I dont want my stories nailed to an artificers guild any more then i want them nailed to a magic mart. What if I am running a game in the wilderness where there is no civilization to support an artificers game? What if my game occurs on some distand plane away from the world of men and elves? Again I encourage and support you in your endeavor to explain your guild and make it fit your world. But that is beyond the scope of this thread, and has nothing to do with it's intent.
Also, as far as the whole "Piles of +1 Swords and Rings of Protection", that's just the spoils of war. It's natural, and will occur no matter what, whether they're a "+1 Longsword of Minor Uselessness", a "+5 Falchion of Epic Slaying", or even just a bunch of masterwork weapons you got from that horde of orcs you slew to protect a town. As a result, there will always be a need to offload this equipment. Even if you use this system, how do you prevent your party from just looting the corpses anyway, gathering what meager treasure they can find, and selling that to, eventually, afford some potions of Haste, so the group stands a better chance against a tough boss.
There is only a need to offload this equipment if it is needed by npcs. If the npcs dont have it it doesn't need to be offloaded. If the npcs have heroic distinctions instead of magic items, they can have a mundane sword and armor, and thus have nothing of overwhelming value to loot.
It is the culture I want to change. Certainly the party can still choose to loot the body, and indeed often they will. But I dont want it to be neccessary. I dont want to hurt players who choose not to, such as a paladin who believes the dead should be left alone, or the cleric with a belief in honoring vanquished foes. Again, characters can certainly continue to do so. And I have every intent to provide treasure still, including occassional magic items, but it will be in an appropriate time and place when it makes sense in the story, and not EVERYWHERE.
Anyway, with all this said, I do want to say again that I like this system. I'm not trying to tell you that your work is wasted and it will never catch on, because that's an out-and-out lie. I fully support wanting to get rid of the "Christmas Tree Effect". I'm just trying to point out that it's more difficult than it seems, because you're not just trying to change a built-in system, you're also trying to change the mindset of your players. However, if you pull it off right, I think you'll be able to convince the players that patience is indeed a virtue, and reward said patience with the occasional epic new piece of equipment for each of them.
I fully realize its a mindset thing more then anything else. And it seems to be working with my group. They are not picking every corpse clean, nor do they appear to be taking everything that isn't nailed down. The point is to first divorce wealth from power, so they dont pay for changing that mindset, and then work on the mindset. It is also a matter of being able to use more flavorful items (several of which were found in saturdays session) without them being digarded for something else. No one in a normal game in my group would have kept a cloak of the montebank for instance, because it meant they couldnt have a cloak of resistance. But now they have one, and they've been using it. That alone made me particularly happy, and bodes well for the success of this system.
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What do you think?It's 5:53am and I've not been to bed, so maybe I've just been up too long to be thinking clearly, but...
Wouldn't it be simpler to just give everyone a bonus to the staples equal to level/3 for PC classes and level/6 for NPC classes/racial-HD and call it a day; and then use magic items to fill out the party's "special abilities". It would be way simpler, and wouldn't require picking new abilities or juggling archtype stuff.
EDIT: Basically poor man's vow of poverty? At 3rd level you'd get a +1 enhancement bonus to most everything (attack and damage, armor, natural armor, deflection, saving throws, and ability scores). Then increase the bonus by +1 again at 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level.
Basically by 18th level you hit +6 in everything.
You can if you wish (with specific choices) accomplish essentially that. And it would be simpler. But I dont think its a one size fits all system. The kinds of magic item bonuses different kinds of characters use vary wildly. What good does +x to hit do a controller wizard? Maybe a player isnt as worried about his to hit bonus and instead focuses on defence because his to hit is already high, or he's a gunslinger, and doesn't need it (due to touch ac) or is a wildshaping druid, complicating things further by juggling natural and manufactured weapons.
By making things choices, it leaves in flexibility, and still allows players if they choose to focus on just those main abilities.