I tend to agree, although I am not sure if this would unbalance things.
Making wizards and fighters equally tough (without armor) but the wiz then just casts Mage Armor.
On the other hand, prior to that, neither had the bonus and the wiz would cast mage armor...
Pretty neat, I'm probably going to use this rules in my campaign. Just one thing. What about turn Defensive Training into 3 distinctions, like saving throws? The reasons are: armor enhancements are cheaper than weapon enhancements. The price is the same as a clock of resistance with the same bonuses. Also at higher levels armor does not escalate well with attack bonuses. As Defensive Training requires armor use, it will remain relatively balanced while fixing Armor Class at High Levels problems. Not really sure if this is adopted, if dodge and natural armor should be increased to five distinctions.
Also, in what Magical Training is based?
Magical Training is based off the Implement rules from the Super Genius Guide to Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands.
Kolokotroni, when you say:
"Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. If a natural weapon is selected it can apply to a maximum of 2 of that kind of weapon. You can select this Distinction an additional time to apply to more of the same kind of natural weapon."Are we talking single weapons (like a longsword) or weapon groups (like heavy blades)?
Type of weapon is the same wording used in weapon focus and similar feats. It means longsword, not heavy blades.
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Magical Training is based off the Implement rules from the Super Genius Guide to Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands.
I plan on using this for my next campaign in addition to a few other tweaks, notably using weapon groups instead of the standard proficiency list.
Any suggestion for replacing magical training if not using that system for casters? I could see lumping "rays" and "touch attacks" to the Offensive Training chain to give a boost to the casters. It is hard to think of another boost to give to casters that doesn't already replicate the Metamagic feats. Perhaps giving a certain number of metamagic feat usages per day without the spell level boost? I don't want to go too far overboard, though.
Kolokotroni, I just wanted to say thanks for posting this system. Currently, one of my gaming groups is using an expanded version of what you posted here to reduce the reliance of magical items on the game and it has been working out pretty well so far. Basically, we added in more options like racial feats, increased skill points, and armor bonuses similar to bracers of armor for unarmored characters. We also made it possible to choose some weaker options at levels 1 and 2.
Magical Training is based off the Implement rules from the Super Genius Guide to Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands.
I plan on using this for my next campaign in addition to a few other tweaks, notably using weapon groups instead of the standard proficiency list.
Any suggestion for replacing magical training if not using that system for casters? I could see lumping "rays" and "touch attacks" to the Offensive Training chain to give a boost to the casters. It is hard to think of another boost to give to casters that doesn't already replicate the Metamagic feats. Perhaps giving a certain number of metamagic feat usages per day without the spell level boost? I don't want to go too far overboard, though.
Heroic distinctions are not meant to replicate magic rods. The super genius games archetypes do that. Specifically the Yuxia archetype (which is good for almost any character) helps with metamagic. That said, even if you are not using rune staves and wyrd wands, you can still use magical training. If you dont want to use it, the system should be ok without it. It just means that a caster has fewer choices that apply to key abilities. If you were to make weapon training apply to touch spells though I dont see why you wouldn't just leave in magical training. It is not going to unbalance anything.
Kolokotroni, I just wanted to say thanks for posting this system. Currently, one of my gaming groups is using an expanded version of what you posted here to reduce the reliance of magical items on the game and it has been working out pretty well so far. Basically, we added in more options like racial feats, increased skill points, and armor bonuses similar to bracers of armor for unarmored characters. We also made it possible to choose some weaker options at levels 1 and 2.
By all means add what works for you group. I hope you guys enjoy it. So far this has worked well in my game, and I am trying to get the other dms in my group to adopt it. I really want to try out a monk using these rules.
No, this post has the most up to date version of the heroic distinctions.
Sunder is countered by the fact that an individual weapon or piece of armor is less of an issue to replace. Unless its magical (this doesn completely negate the existance of magic weapons and armor, just the +x portion of it) one longsword is as good as another after offensive training is taken. You could have 3 non-masterword weapons of the same type and not have an issue, and you wouldnt lose a huge amount of effectiveness for switching to a backup weapon of the same type, like you do if 'normal' magical gear gets taken from you
Well given crafting wonderous items, rings, staves etc is impossible, and these items cant be bought and sold as a based assumption of this system, there is a relatively limited impact additional gp can provide. The only thing it could go into is consumables (scrolls, wands, potions), so really put as much as you want in there it wont have a huge impact on character power one way or the other.
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First off, excellent thread. I will consider using this system in the future. A couple questions though:
1) I do not want a campaign that blurs character classes. And although I have not read the archetypes, it does appear that is exactly what they do. Could you explain in more specific terms what these .pdfs are offering?
2) If I felt the archetypes are not suitable for my campaign, what suggestions can you offer me to compensate for the big 6? I very much enjoy the flexibility of your system, which does not give a boost to everything and call it a day.
1) The Super Genius Games Archetypes are a set of themed abilities that are similar to part of a class. Martial Archetypes offer martial options, for instance the blacksnake gives specializations with whips, the yuxia offers sort of wushu martial arts movie abilities.
I am not sure what you mean 'blur the classes', but for the most part no specific class abilities are replicated by archetypes except a few specific ones like the weapon champion offering some abilities that are very similar to weapon training which the fighter gets.
The intent is to add flexibility to characters. For instance a fighter might get winged boots, or a cape of the montebank which grants them some added mobility on the battlefield. The Yuxia's ki stance would grant something similar as an example.
2) The heroic distinctions already mostly compensate for the big 6. You can if you dont like the application of archetypes, leave it at just the distinctions and then give out about 40-60% of normal treasure and just ensure none of them are big six items (though it assumes you will still would give out a few magic weapons to primary martial characters that only have non-numeric enhancements on them like a flaming sword, or a keen katana).
Hey Kolok! Any updates on this? :)
Dot
This is some very interesting stuff. Great work Koloko
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This is just what I need for my game. I will be implementing both the Heroic Distinctions and the free archetypes in an upcoming Rise of the Runelords game I am restarting, along with a few other house rule tests. Namely removing the armor and weapon '+' system and changing those to craft quality levels and having armor absorb a percent of damage rather than providing an armor bonus.
Okay, so, this thread has been dead for a year.... And it's a hell of an idea, so, shame!
Resurrection!
Now that that's taken care of.. Fairly certain I've said this before in here, but this is an awesome idea.
I'm currently in the processes of homebrewing up a "select your class abilities" rule set, axing the need for archetypes and letting you mix and match. Naturally, there will be minimum & maximum level limitations, as well as 'if they chose this one, cannot choose these' kind of deal (in my best effort to minimize power-munchkin-optimization). Yeah, I know, might as well rebuild the entire game, right? lol. Just intent on trying to give my players (whom I know are not uber power gamers, most of them) options for different kinds of characters without locking them into things they don't want (like many of the archetypes).
I'm thinking this system would work well in conjunction, particularly if I wind up accidentally destroying the balance with an unintended nerf bazooka, this might offset that without relying on dropping massive loot. Having yet to actually use it yet though, I'm curious if you (or anyone else who's done this by now) would agree.
Normally I'd implement rules changes bit by bit to make sure everything works before seeing if everything plays nice with each other. Felt this might actually go hand in hand, lol.
Artemis it sounds like you need to check out the talented class line by super genius games.
Artemis it sounds like you need to check out the talented class line by super genius games.
So it does... Just skimmed over them in the shop (Rogue Genius Games, btw, unless SGG renamed themselves without my notice). This is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks buddy.
Still need to figure out how it'll work in combination with Kolo's Distinctions system though.