Who is River Song?


Television

201 to 250 of 264 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>

Didn't the Tennant Doctor say that the Master was an incredible genius, whom it would be an honour to travel the universe with at some point over that Christmas/New Year two parter?
I know he was supposed to be trying to talk him out of something else at that moment, but the way it was said I had the impression he was being sincere.
(And back when the Master was played by Jacobi and the Tennant Doctor met him, before either of them knew he was the Master, he was impressed with what the Master had been doing with very basic materials.)

Dark Archive

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Didn't the Tennant Doctor say that the Master was an incredible genius, whom it would be an honour to travel the universe with at some point over that Christmas/New Year two parter?

I know he was supposed to be trying to talk him out of something else at that moment, but the way it was said I had the impression he was being sincere.
(And back when the Master was played by Jacobi and the Tennant Doctor met him, before either of them knew he was the Master, he was impressed with what the Master had been doing with very basic materials.)

Indeed, part of the schism of the relationship is that the Dr admires the Master and what he would have become had he not gone mad....


It doesn't really matter what the Doctor can do, it was what the TARDIS could do, and he said it couldn't sustain the paradox which is obviously false.

Dark Archive

Cartigan wrote:
It doesn't really matter what the Doctor can do, it was what the TARDIS could do, and he said it couldn't sustain the paradox which is obviously false.

Not obviously. The point is the Master took the TARDIS and made something *else* which held the paradox.

Like taking a Jet engine and using it to power a car.... I wouldn't call This a plane, or say it can fly. But it uses the same basis, and physics.....

The idea that the paradox can exist *but not inside the TARDIS* also has merit.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Also, it's a different kind of paradox. One is a time loop with something from the future going back in time and changing something in the past - but it didn't actually succeed in killing off it's ancestors.

The Amy paradox involved the same person not only from two different points in their own time stream, but with one's future directly cancelling the existence of the other's. Not that I'm a temporal engineer, but the Amy paradox seems a different order of magnitude in terms of paradoxes. The one with the Master and the future humans only caused a potential paradox, since in the end, the paradox of them actually killing off all of humanity was averted.


JoelF847 wrote:

Also, it's a different kind of paradox. One is a time loop with something from the future going back in time and changing something in the past - but it didn't actually succeed in killing off it's ancestors.

The Amy paradox involved the same person not only from two different points in their own time stream, but with one's future directly cancelling the existence of the other's. Not that I'm a temporal engineer, but the Amy paradox seems a different order of magnitude in terms of paradoxes. The one with the Master and the future humans only caused a potential paradox, since in the end, the paradox of them actually killing off all of humanity was averted.

Yeah, there has totally never been two of the same person from different points in that person's time line in the TARDIS before. Nope, never.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

Also, it's a different kind of paradox. One is a time loop with something from the future going back in time and changing something in the past - but it didn't actually succeed in killing off it's ancestors.

The Amy paradox involved the same person not only from two different points in their own time stream, but with one's future directly cancelling the existence of the other's. Not that I'm a temporal engineer, but the Amy paradox seems a different order of magnitude in terms of paradoxes. The one with the Master and the future humans only caused a potential paradox, since in the end, the paradox of them actually killing off all of humanity was averted.

Yeah, there has totally never been two of the same person from different points in that person's time line in the TARDIS before. Nope, never.

There's a major difference here. Multiple incarnations of the Doctor have appeared in the TARDIS, but they were woven into his history, not one being a direct cancellation of the other. Rescuing Present Amy from her situation directly cancels the time line that would have led to Older Amelia. Similarly the previous incident of multiple Amys, Rorys, and multiple Elevens were also part of the continuiing timelines for each, not Paradoxical.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

LazarX wrote:
There's a major difference here. Multiple incarnations of the Doctor have appeared in the TARDIS, but they were woven into his history, not one being a direct cancellation of the other. Rescuing Present Amy from her situation directly cancels the time line that would have led to Older Amelia. Similarly the previous incident of multiple Amys, Rorys, and multiple Elevens were also part of the continuiing timelines for each, not Paradoxical.

I think he may have been thinking of Mawdryn Undead


Matthew Morris wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There's a major difference here. Multiple incarnations of the Doctor have appeared in the TARDIS, but they were woven into his history, not one being a direct cancellation of the other. Rescuing Present Amy from her situation directly cancels the time line that would have led to Older Amelia. Similarly the previous incident of multiple Amys, Rorys, and multiple Elevens were also part of the continuiing timelines for each, not Paradoxical.
I think he may have been thinking of Mawdryn Undead

But in the case of The Brigadier in Mawdryn Undead, the TARDIS was only peripherally involved, and the actual paradox took place on the science-tomb-prison-ship, ultimately having nothing to do with the TARDIS itself.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

jemstone wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There's a major difference here. Multiple incarnations of the Doctor have appeared in the TARDIS, but they were woven into his history, not one being a direct cancellation of the other. Rescuing Present Amy from her situation directly cancels the time line that would have led to Older Amelia. Similarly the previous incident of multiple Amys, Rorys, and multiple Elevens were also part of the continuiing timelines for each, not Paradoxical.
I think he may have been thinking of Mawdryn Undead
But in the case of The Brigadier in Mawdryn Undead, the TARDIS was only peripherally involved, and the actual paradox took place on the science-tomb-prison-ship, ultimately having nothing to do with the TARDIS itself.

Oh I know, it's the only episode I could think of though, where you had one person, at different points in his personal timeline, in the Tardis. Of course it has been 25+ years since I saw it...

Edit: Were real pregnant Amy and River ever in the Tardis at the same time?


Matthew Morris wrote:


Edit: Were real pregnant Amy and River ever in the Tardis at the same time?

If we assume the Silence were at least partly responsible then yes ... the trip from the Utah diner to the White House and then from the White House to the Silence lab.

But maybe she was grabbed at some previous point after their wedding by someone else.....

Cheers
Mark

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Mark Norfolk wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


Edit: Were real pregnant Amy and River ever in the Tardis at the same time?

If we assume the Silence were at least partly responsible then yes ... the trip from the Utah diner to the White House and then from the White House to the Silence lab.

But maybe she was grabbed at some previous point after their wedding by someone else.....

Cheers
Mark

I thought of that, but didn't know if the Silents snagged her when they were out by the water. We know she saw one, but don't know what it might have done...

Dark Archive

Matthew Morris wrote:
Mark Norfolk wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


Edit: Were real pregnant Amy and River ever in the Tardis at the same time?

If we assume the Silence were at least partly responsible then yes ... the trip from the Utah diner to the White House and then from the White House to the Silence lab.

But maybe she was grabbed at some previous point after their wedding by someone else.....

Cheers
Mark

I thought of that, but didn't know if the Silents snagged her when they were out by the water. We know she saw one, but don't know what it might have done...

It makes sense that she got snagged by the Silence when she was alone with the one in the restroom at the White House. Considering they disintigrated the poor secretary who walked in while Amy was in there, it makes sense that this was when the switch was made. But again, River and fetal Melody may have co-existed but one was not directly trying to cancel out the other's existance.


David Fryer wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Mark Norfolk wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:


Edit: Were real pregnant Amy and River ever in the Tardis at the same time?

If we assume the Silence were at least partly responsible then yes ... the trip from the Utah diner to the White House and then from the White House to the Silence lab.

But maybe she was grabbed at some previous point after their wedding by someone else.....

Cheers
Mark

I thought of that, but didn't know if the Silents snagged her when they were out by the water. We know she saw one, but don't know what it might have done...
It makes sense that she got snagged by the Silence when she was alone with the one in the restroom at the White House. Considering they disintigrated the poor secretary who walked in while Amy was in there, it makes sense that this was when the switch was made. But again, River and fetal Melody may have co-existed but one was not directly trying to cancel out the other's existance.

There's also that long gap between Episodes 1 & 2. We didn't see Francis Barber until the old asylum....


Off course that raises the possibility that River isn't really the girl she thought she was...My god this story arc is getting convoluted.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM Wellard wrote:
Off course that raises the possibility that River isn't really the girl she thought she was...My god this story arc is getting convoluted.

You gotta watch it with Moffet's reveals. Every time he gives something up, he's hiding something else. I will bet that we have not yet seen the act which gets River confined in the Stormspire. I do think that we've seen another new faction in play in "Lets Kill Hitler." as well as learned a bit more about the group that wants the Doctor dead.


Umm. I'm wondering now if the girl in the spacesuit in the lake was River or maybe someone else? Does River have a daughter??? If so, maybe the 'good man' River killed was her husband/the girl's father?


I'm still betting on the person in the spacesuit being The Doctor


Loztastic wrote:
I'm still betting on the person in the spacesuit being The Doctor

Rory is the most likely. Or the time police.


Loztastic wrote:
I'm still betting on the person in the spacesuit being The Doctor

Actually I think it was Pudding Doctor. Remember, The Flesh has played a pretty important role through this whole thing. I don't think its job is done yet.


jemstone wrote:
Loztastic wrote:
I'm still betting on the person in the spacesuit being The Doctor
Actually I think it was Pudding Doctor. Remember, The Flesh has played a pretty important role through this whole thing. I don't think its job is done yet.

Given that, it's just as likely that the Doctor killed was the Flesh Doctor.


Cartigan wrote:
jemstone wrote:
Loztastic wrote:
I'm still betting on the person in the spacesuit being The Doctor
Actually I think it was Pudding Doctor. Remember, The Flesh has played a pretty important role through this whole thing. I don't think its job is done yet.
Given that, it's just as likely that the Doctor killed was the Flesh Doctor.

That's actually what I meant to say - but because I am an enormous goober and was multi-tasking I misread Loz's statement and answered with my theory regardless.

Mi Scuzi, Signore.


Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

The Exchange

Cartigan wrote:

Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

Still sitting in the middle of the desert in America. Maybe invisible. Also WTF did River not know what was going on??

She can't be in the suit as a little girl, she would have known it later. So the space person is not her.


Crimson Jester wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

Still sitting in the middle of the desert in America. Maybe invisible. Also WTF did River not know what was going on??

She can't be in the suit as a little girl, she would have known it later. So the space person is not her.

Clearly. There would be no reason to put so much effort into getting close to Amy Pond to get close to the Doctor if she already killed him as well.

The TARDIS isn't invisible, it has a perception filter. However that can be bypassed if you know what you are looking for.

The Exchange

Cartigan wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

Still sitting in the middle of the desert in America. Maybe invisible. Also WTF did River not know what was going on??

She can't be in the suit as a little girl, she would have known it later. So the space person is not her.

Clearly. There would be no reason to put so much effort into getting close to Amy Pond to get close to the Doctor if she already killed him as well.

The TARDIS isn't invisible, it has a perception filter. However that can be bypassed if you know what you are looking for.

And have the Key to get into it.

Which why they didn't just look for the Doctor's Tardis after he was killed I still do not know. River should have had access if no one else. I was wondering if it wasn't actually in Chameleon mode and the car he was sitting on.

Liberty's Edge

Crimson Jester wrote:


Which why they didn't just look for the Doctor's Tardis after he was killed I still do not know. River should have had access if no one else. I was wondering if it wasn't actually in Chameleon mode and the car he was sitting on.

I thought the chameleon circuit was fried and stuck so that it could only be perceived as the police box...


it's a TARDIS from 200 years in the future - he could have repaired it by then


Crimson Jester wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

Still sitting in the middle of the desert in America. Maybe invisible. Also WTF did River not know what was going on??

She can't be in the suit as a little girl, she would have known it later. So the space person is not her.

Well, after emptying her gun at the astronaut but failing to injure it, she did mutter "No, of corse not".

Cheers
Mark


Loztastic wrote:
it's a TARDIS from 200 years in the future - he could have repaired it by then

After having not done so for the past few hundred years?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Cartigan wrote:

Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

Oooh, The TARDIS is alive... A Flesh Tardis? The time vortex would stablalize it.

Edit: This is something that always bothered me about 'Pete's Earth.' Torchwood was created specifically because of the Doctor. So did Pete's Earth have Timelords/Daleks? What happened in Pete's Time War?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crimson Jester wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Actually, that really doesn't make sense either. He knew too much of River's history that the current Doctor didn't.

On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

Still sitting in the middle of the desert in America. Maybe invisible. Also WTF did River not know what was going on??

She can't be in the suit as a little girl, she would have known it later. So the space person is not her.

Unless her recall is blocked out by reprogramming and trauma.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:


On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

I'm going on the clue from "Let's Kill Hitler"... it was stolen by River Song. You're assuming that the Future Doctor still had his TARDIS.

A lot of folks are making the assumption that that episode settled things between the Doctor and Melody Pond. The Future Doctor had spent possibly the better part of 200 years running from something.


LazarX wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

I'm going on the clue from "Let's Kill Hitler"... it was stolen by River Song. You're assuming that the Future Doctor still had his TARDIS.

The ability to continue to time travel kind of implies that.

The Exchange

He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.


Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.

Then how does he know about stuff that happened off-world? He and River compare notebooks and talk about things that haven't yet happened.

The Exchange

Cartigan wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.
Then how does he know about stuff that happened off-world? He and River compare notebooks and talk about things that haven't yet happened.

good call. too many things still make no sense.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

I'm going on the clue from "Let's Kill Hitler"... it was stolen by River Song. You're assuming that the Future Doctor still had his TARDIS.
The ability to continue to time travel kind of implies that.

The TARDIS is not the only means of time travel possible. two words... Vortex Manipulator.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.

Two of them in fact.. extra credit to those who remember their names. :)


I wouldn't try too hard and force Dr Who into a narrow band of continuity - its a very old show and a lot of the back story is contradictory...

In regards to the new stuff, Russell T Davies was not one for continuity either... often making stuff up on the fly (like the producers of Lost).


LazarX wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.
Two of them in fact.. extra credit to those who remember their names. :)

Bessie and the WhoMobile (I think it may have been a hovercraft) its been a long time since I saw the Pertwee episodes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.
Two of them in fact.. extra credit to those who remember their names. :)
Bessie and the WhoMobile (I think it may have been a hovercraft) its been a long time since I saw the Pertwee episodes.

Correct on both counts. they were given in response to what Pertwee said when asked for his one wish on taking the role... opportunity to indulge his love for fast cars. Pertwee owned the Whomobile and for a few years afterward it used to be fairly common to see him tooling around London in it. BTW the latter is registered as an invalid tricycle. Bessie was a kit car of which 100 were made.


LazarX wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

I'm going on the clue from "Let's Kill Hitler"... it was stolen by River Song. You're assuming that the Future Doctor still had his TARDIS.
The ability to continue to time travel kind of implies that.
The TARDIS is not the only means of time travel possible. two words... Vortex Manipulator.

They wouldn't have found a Vortex Manipulator on him?

The Exchange

Cartigan wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


On that note however, where is the second TARDIS?

I'm going on the clue from "Let's Kill Hitler"... it was stolen by River Song. You're assuming that the Future Doctor still had his TARDIS.
The ability to continue to time travel kind of implies that.
The TARDIS is not the only means of time travel possible. two words... Vortex Manipulator.
They wouldn't have found a Vortex Manipulator on him?

Did they bother to look? Could he have disabled it and left it in the car? I think the big issue is why are the principle characters all keeping secrets from each other that could give the entire plot away and finish the season early?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Matthew Morris wrote:
So did Pete's Earth have Timelords/Daleks? What happened in Pete's Time War?

I've always been under the impression that the Last Great Time War was a single war fought across all possible universes, since it was repeatedly stated that it took place in higher dimensions. Also, the time bomb Davross built to achieve ultimate Dalek victory was designed to destroy all possible universes, not just the one where he built it.

Dark Archive

Crimson Jester wrote:
I think the big issue is why are the principle characters all keeping secrets from each other that could give the entire plot away and finish the season early?

Keeping secrets is what people do ;)

More interesting to me, is what secrets is Rory keeping? There must be at least one.....

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.
Two of them in fact.. extra credit to those who remember their names. :)
Bessie and the WhoMobile (I think it may have been a hovercraft) its been a long time since I saw the Pertwee episodes.

The Whomobile (which was fortunately never called that onscreen) didn't just hover, it flew, by way of some really bad CSO. (See Planet of the Spiders 2; it's one of the most pointless episodes ever, as more than half of it is taken up with a multiple car/helicopter/autogyro/flying car/speedboat/hovercraft chase sequence that ends with the person being chased essentially teleporting away, leaving everyone to wonder why he didn't just do that at the start...)


Vic Wertz wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
He had been stuck on earth before. Had a pretty fancy car at that time too.
Two of them in fact.. extra credit to those who remember their names. :)
Bessie and the WhoMobile (I think it may have been a hovercraft) its been a long time since I saw the Pertwee episodes.
The Whomobile (which was fortunately never called that onscreen) didn't just hover, it flew, by way of some really bad CSO. (See Planet of the Spiders 2; it's one of the most pointless episodes ever, as more than half of it is taken up with a multiple car/helicopter/autogyro/flying car/speedboat/hovercraft chase sequence that ends with the person being chased essentially teleporting away, leaving everyone to wonder why he didn't just do that at the start...)

Planet of the Spiders - is that the one with Harry, Sarah Jane and the Doctor regenerates at the end?

I loved Pertwee and his Venusian JuJitsu... My brother in-law has a full sized poster of the naughty picture of Katy Manning (Jo Grant) and a Dalek.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Planet of the Spiders - is that the one with Harry, Sarah Jane and the Doctor regenerates at the end?

I loved Pertwee and his Venusian JuJitsu... My brother in-law has a full sized poster of the naughty picture of Katy Manning (Jo Grant) and a Dalek.

Yes, that's the one where Pertwee regenerates into Baker, with a bit of help from another renegade Time Lord.

The Third Doctor's martial specialty was known as Venusian Savate. Savate is a word for a French martial art.


LazarX wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Planet of the Spiders - is that the one with Harry, Sarah Jane and the Doctor regenerates at the end?

I loved Pertwee and his Venusian JuJitsu... My brother in-law has a full sized poster of the naughty picture of Katy Manning (Jo Grant) and a Dalek.

Yes, that's the one where Pertwee regenerates into Baker, with a bit of help from another renegade Time Lord.

The Third Doctor's martial specialty was known as Venusian Savate. Savate is a word for a French martial art.

Venusian Aikido actually. ;)

201 to 250 of 264 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Entertainment / Television / Who is River Song? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.