Who is River Song?

[DM Wellard]

Spoiler:

I especially liked how they adressed River's inability to regenerate in the Library.But now the Question is..did she just use it all up or did she transfer her regenerations to the Doctor..in which case he has another 9. Incidentally Moffat has promised to throw a spanner in the works at the last second in Ep 13..surprise, surprise(not)

[brock]

DM Wellard wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Exactly.

Spoiler:

We now know why River didn't regenerate, and the Doctor may (or may not) now have an unspecified number of regenerations remaining to support the future series. Cleverly played.

[DM Wellard]

Other things I loved about this Episode

Spoiler:

1) Melody ensuring Amy finally gets it that Rory fancies her therefore ensuring her own existence. "And the penny drops"

2)"You named your daughter....after your daughter" one of the great time travel lines.

3) The Justice Department and the 'Tesselator' I'm sure they'll be back

4)River/Melodies scene in the hotel

5) The ultra polite death probes

6)Rose, Martha and Donna appearing as the voice interface to the Doctors "There must be someone who's life I haven't totally screwed up" and his comment to the Amelia version about "stop being so Scottish"

[Nevynxxx]

Well that pointed out the deficiencies in Torchwood pretty well!

I *loved* Mells. Typical Moffet though, left more questions than it answered.

[DM Wellard]

Two weeks from now sees 'The Girl who waited' which sort of fills in the gaps on Amy's life..so we may yet see more of 'Mells'

[Nevynxxx]

DM Wellard wrote:

Two weeks from now sees 'The Girl who waited' which sort of fills in the gaps on Amy's life..so we may yet see more of 'Mells'

Ohh, funky!

[DM Wellard]

Oh I forgot I also adored Rory's 'Captain America' moment.

Those who have seen the film and this episode will know what I mean.

[Kthulhu]

Well, this episode pretty much confirmed my theory that:

Spoiler:

...the Silents (alien race) and the Silence (religious order) are NOT one and the same. I really don't think the Silents had anything to do with the TARDIS exploding, abduction/brainwashing of Melody/River, etc.

[Dragonsong]

DM Wellard wrote:

Other things I loved about this Episode

** spoiler omitted **

I liked those but I really liked the line about Vampires in Venice.

Spoiler:

I THINK that was the episode Karen Gillan was in as an extra before becoming Ms Pond.

[Cartigan]

Dragonsong wrote:

DM Wellard wrote:

Other things I loved about this Episode

** spoiler omitted **

I liked those but I really liked the line about Vampires in Venice.

** spoiler omitted **

No, that's Turn Left - she was the fortune teller. Vampires in Venice was this or last season, even after they picked up Rory.

A better question is WHO kills the Doctor now. It couldn't have been a younger Melody Pond and not an older River Song.

And what is the question that must be asked before the silence falls. I'm guessing "Who is the Doctor?"

And how do the religious army from the Time of The Angels relate to the CURRENT anti-Doctor religious army (the Silence).

[Dragonsong]

Cartigan wrote:

Dragonsong wrote:

DM Wellard wrote:

Other things I loved about this Episode

** spoiler omitted **

I liked those but I really liked the line about Vampires in Venice.

** spoiler omitted **

No, that's Turn Left - she was the fortune teller. Vampires in Venice was this or last season, even after they picked up Rory.

Ahh that's right I stand corrected.

[Vanulf Wulfson]

Turn Left?
Do they have different names for the episodes in the U.K. than in the states? Over here it was called The Fires of Pompeii.

[Cartigan]

Vanulf Wulfson wrote:

Turn Left?

Do they have different names for the episodes in the U.K. than in the states? Over here it was called The Fires of Pompeii.

I thought she was the teller in Turn Left, not Fires of Pompeii.

Guess I was wrong.

[Charles Evans 25]

Cartigan wrote:

Dragonsong wrote:

DM Wellard wrote:

Other things I loved about this Episode

** spoiler omitted **

I liked those but I really liked the line about Vampires in Venice.

** spoiler omitted **

No, that's Turn Left - she was the fortune teller. Vampires in Venice was this or last season, even after they picked up Rory.

A better question is WHO kills the Doctor now. It couldn't have been a younger Melody Pond and not an older River Song...

It could have been a younger Melody Pond. From what's been on the show, as far as I can determine, from Melody's perspective events run like this:

Spoiler:

1) Born at base on what is (or possibly will be??) known as 'Demons Run'.

2) Swapped at some point by mysterious eye-patch lady for replicant.

3) (Surmised) Mysterious eye-patch lady gives baby Melody to Silence in mid twentieth century Earth. Silence install Melody in space suit and brainwash her to kill the Doctor.

4) Melody goes to lake in Utah and shoots someone who appears to be a later version of the Matt Smith Doctor. She escapes. She later ends up on the streets of New York (sans space suit) and regenerates. (Maybe she has a health problem in that body and can't exist long without the suit.)

5) (Surmised) Still compelled to kill the Doctor for some reason (was the later version of the Matt Smith Doctor she shot maybe a fake/replicant and she realised it?) Melody travels to the UK and waits until she can grow up alongside Amy Pond and Rory, knowing that sooner or later this is likely to put her back in contact with the Doctor.

6) Melody tries to assassinate the Doctor again, this time with toxic lipstick. Possibly her brainwashing starts to break down at this point, since she apparently burns through a number of regenerations to reverse it. At this point apparently Melody changes names to River Song.

7) (Surmised) Melody kills 'a Good Man' (her father? someone else???) for the purpose of locating whom she studied as an archeologist. She is locked in the Storm Cage, but periodically escapes.

8) Melody escapes the Storm Cage for the Pandorica opening. (Note that by this point in her career she has done enough that she knows a dalek will be scared witless of her.)

9) Melody is let out of the Storm Cage under armed guard to assist with the Weeping Angels. (Possibly she is pardoned for this.)

10) Melody becomes a professor and leads the expedition to the Library.

Now, I'm not clear where the separate Storm Cage escapes to attend the Doctor's assassination/funeral in Utah and to join in with the general mopping up after Demons Run (and to tell Amy/Rory that she is their daughter) occur in the general sequence of her life. There were some mentions of events which had happened when Melody and the later and earlier versions of the Matt Smith Doctor compared diaries in Utah, which might at some point place these events.
It hasn't yet been disclosed who sent the envelopes inviting Melody, Amy, Rory, and the earlier and later versions of the Matt Smith Doctor to be in Utah.

For the sake of completeness, I also think there was mention of a picnic which the Tennant Doctor had with Melody, which happened 'off scene' at some point.

As some final questions for consideration:
1) Did Melody really use up all her remaining regenerations in Let's Kill Hitler?
2) Why didn't the Doctor see Melody (who was supposed to have been Amy's friend) at the wedding, when she had apparently been in existence in Amy's timeline up until then?
3) Just who is eye-patch lady anyway (and is the fact that she has an eye-patch anything to do with the Doctor)?
4) Are Melody and River Song actually the same person?
5) Was it the real Doctor or a duplicate who was shot and killed at the lake in Utah?
6) Why exactly did the Doctor's Tardis blow up round about the time of the Pandorica business?
7) How did Vincent van Gogh know the Doctor's Tardi's would blow up, to paint the picture?
8) Are the Silence related to the monster van Gogh could see, and if so are humans with differently wired senses able to see them? (There is of course the painting by the Scandinavian artist of The Scream.)
9) And on a tinfoil hat note, was it just coincidence that there was a Tennant Doctor episode called 'Silence in the Library'?

Edit:
By 'replicant', I mean one of those simulacrum thingummies, made from 'the flesh'. Not sure what the correct Whovian term for them is? Could be 'gangers'?

[Matthew Morris]

Two things:

Spoiler:

I wonder now if Storm Cage has some connection to the Doctor being known as the oncoming storm.

And the Vengenance squad in the transformer seems to be the fourth time in the series that says the Time Lords, for all their issues, may be needed. (The scavangers in "Father's Day." The Time agency Jack belonged to, That the Time Lords allowed/controled parallel universe travel, and now the vengeance squad.)

And I still think she kills Rory.

[DM Wellard]

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Why didn't the Doctor see Melody (who was supposed to have been Amy's friend) at the wedding, when she had apparently been in existence in Amy's timeline up until then?

That was actually answered in the script Charles.The Doctor asked the same question, the answer was "I don't do weddings]

[Mark Norfolk]

The actress you played Chantho in Utopia was the 'teller in Turn Left, Karen was a non-speaking priestess in the Fires of Pompeii.

I found the line "Rule One: The Doctor always lies" extremely portentous.

But since we have "time can be re-written" and the Doctor's death being a fixed point maybe the way this gets solved is Amy and Rory's history is changed so River never exists. The Doctor lives but two more lives are 'screwed up' and he misses one of the great romances of his life.

Cheers
Mark

[Matthew Morris]

Aside,

It was nice to see someone else do the 'regernation routine'

(That and and the actress who plays adult Mels was hot.)

[Matthew Morris]

Interestingly...

Spoiler:

Note the language of the captain. It's a fixed point that the doctor dies. He does *not* say it's a fixed point that River kills him. Another thought... What if Amy had twins?

Edit: Another question resolved. Who taught River to fly the Tardis? She did.

[Nevynxxx]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Who taught River to fly the Tardis? She did.

Apparently River is as much The daughter of the TARDIS as she is of Amy and Rory.

[Kthulhu]

Nevynxxx wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

Who taught River to fly the Tardis? She did.

Apparently River is as much The daughter of the TARDIS as she is of Amy and Rory.

She's very forgiving, seeing as how River had just SHOT her.

[Matthew Morris]

Kthulhu wrote:

Nevynxxx wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

Who taught River to fly the Tardis? She did.

Apparently River is as much The daughter of the TARDIS as she is of Amy and Rory.

She's very forgiving, seeing as how River had just SHOT her.

But she also knows all the good River does. Plus how long were they together in "The Pandorica opens?" Remember, TARDISes don't see time linerarly.

[Legendarius]

Just watched the Let's Kill Hitler episode of Doctor Who and I did like it a lot. The following are some different comments/thoughts on it. Looks like people added their thoughts to this thread so here are mine.

Spoiler:

1) I liked when the Doctor activated the voice interface and he kept talking about how the images it was using (Rose, Sarah Jane, etc.) could make him feel guilty. I'm not sure we've seen this TARDIS feature before. Can anyone recall an earlier episode, old or new series, that featured it? If not, then maybe in a novel or comic?

2) I think the ongoing development of the River/Melody character is great and at the same time sad. I do hope after this season though that for the most part Amy, Rory and Melody/River "leave the TARDIS" and we get a new mix of companions.

3) The Nazi response time was pretty slow. I mean, an object the size of the TARDIS crashes through the office building of the Fuhrer and nobody comes in to check to see if he's ok? The guards outside were almost acting like nothing happened. Ditto when they were at the restaurant later, all those people that River forced out of the place and there aren't any troops or police showing up in the next two minutes? Seemed a little difficult to buy into.

4) I liked the miniaturization to put them inside the robot that was simulating people. I recall an old, old first Doctor episode where the TARDIS was shrunk and they were moving around some house. Good to see we still have shrink rays in Doctor Who.

5) Is it me, or did they break canon with the whole weapons don't work in the TARDIS thing? The fact that Melody shot the inside of the TARDIS might have been ok had they explained it all as her being the "child of the TARDIS" meaning she could override the safety features. But the Doctor acted like telling people that guns don't work in the TARDIS all these years was just him saying stuff and the bad guys bought into it. But I could swear in the past there were examples where enemies got onboard the TARDIS and did try to shoot/blast/whatever the Doctor and companions and the TARDIS safeties did prevent injury.

6) So Amy and Rory make a crop circle that spells out Doctor and the Doctor arrives. How is it the right iteration of the Doctor arrives? Wouldn't his earlier incarnations be just as curious? Who's to say that Doctor #7 and Ace don't show up? I know I'm reading too deep into it but I find it fun to think about stuff like that.

L

[deinol]

Legendarius said:

Is it me, or did they break canon with the whole weapons don't work in the TARDIS thing? The fact that Melody shot the inside of the TARDIS might have been ok had they explained it all as her being the "child of the TARDIS" meaning she could override the safety features. But the Doctor acted like telling people that guns don't work in the TARDIS all these years was just him saying stuff and the bad guys bought into it. But I could swear in the past there were examples where enemies got onboard the TARDIS and did try to shoot/blast/whatever the Doctor and companions and the TARDIS safeties did prevent injury.

Response:

The "Temporal Grace" thing only ever happened during the fourth doctor era. In Earthshock and other stories since, weapons have been fired in the TARDIS. So this is the first mention in the new series of Temporal Grace, but people have used guns in the TARDIS in the new series before. Didn't they materialize on a Dalek and then shoot it during the Captain Jack days?

Regardless, Temporal Grace was never mentioned before the 4th Doctor, and never worked after him.

[Vic Wertz]

Mark Norfolk wrote:

Karen was a non-speaking priestess in the Fires of Pompeii.

She had a few lines, actually... check out this YouTube video, which shows her part.

[Mark Norfolk]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Mark Norfolk wrote:

Karen was a non-speaking priestess in the Fires of Pompeii.

She had a few lines, actually... check out this YouTube video, which shows her part.

In her "posh" voice too.....

I remember seeing stills of her from the episode but didn't actually recall her as the one following the Doctor and Donna.

@Lengendarius: It's a writing convention that the current Doctor is the Doctor and all references to him past and future are about the current incarnation - all Clive's pictures of him in Rose are of the Ninth. You could reason that No.7 saw the paper and thought "Ledworth...never been there. It's either a L.I.N.D.A. type bunch or something to do with a future self....either way I'll give it a miss".

Cheers
Mark

[Nevynxxx]

Mark Norfolk wrote:

@Lengendarius: It's a writing convention that the current Doctor is the Doctor and all references to him past and future are about the current incarnation - all Clive's pictures of him in Rose are of the Ninth. You could reason that No.7 saw the paper and thought "Ledworth...never been there. It's either a L.I.N.D.A. type bunch or something to do with a future self....either way I'll give it a miss".

Cheers
Mark

Or it was a pre-arranged signal, that he knew they could use, because he's never used it before......

time travel + stephen moffet = circular logic.....

[Shadowborn]

Nevynxxx wrote:

time travel + stephen moffet = circular logic.....

Indeed. There are times I can almost convince myself I'm watching a British version of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

[KestlerGunner]

The biggest question is:

What do all the humans do with the Silents after they become aware of them? Is there an enormous Human Vs Silent genocide in which Earth's history is rewritten in the 1960s? Did all the Silents get shot? Did they get booted off Earth? Did the humans take all their alien technology? Were there pyres on the streets where humans left the bodies of shot white skinned creatures in oversize business suits to burn?

Why were these Aliens even in business suits?

Most of the time I think the Dr Who audience puts more thought into the plot lines than the writers do.

Also:

If Rory was 'recreated' by Pond after his death, what's the deal with his memories? Does he remember dying AND being made into a robotic centurion? Can someone explain that slowly to me?

[Loztastic]

KestlerGunner wrote:

If Rory was 'recreated' by Pond after his death, what's the deal with his memories? Does he remember dying AND being made into a robotic centurion? Can someone explain that slowly to me?

He has said he has plastic Rory's memories, but they are hazy and come and go

[jemstone]

Loztastic wrote:

KestlerGunner wrote:

If Rory was 'recreated' by Pond after his death, what's the deal with his memories? Does he remember dying AND being made into a robotic centurion? Can someone explain that slowly to me?

He has said he has plastic Rory's memories, but they are hazy and come and go

"As though they're locked behind a door," to paraphrase.

[LazarX]

DM Wellard wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

River's inability to regenerate didn't need to be addressed. There are quite a few ways that regeneration can be bypassed after all. Total disintegration is definitely one of them.

[Loztastic]

back in Forest of the Dead, when she died, she said to the doctor

"it would stop both of you hearts, even you can't regenerate from that" when explaining why she took his place

so, no need, at all, to explain why she didn't regenerate

[Bhrymm]

Favorite quote of Let's Kill Hitler

Movie plot spoiler:

"Maybe I'll set it so I slowly get younger over time just to screw with people."

[KestlerGunner]

Mine was (paraphrased badly)

Hero is accosted by a full regiment of SS troops wielding machine guns.
"Can you get out of my way? I'm heading to a Gay Gypsy Barmitzvah"

Nazi teasing is the best teasing.

Also Rory yelling 'Get in the cupboard Hitler!' was lulzy as well.

[LazarX]

Loztastic wrote:

KestlerGunner wrote:

If Rory was 'recreated' by Pond after his death, what's the deal with his memories? Does he remember dying AND being made into a robotic centurion? Can someone explain that slowly to me?

He has said he has plastic Rory's memories, but they are hazy and come and go

Actually if I recall correctly, he tends to avoid using those memories, as they're not particurlarly pleasant, but he can call them up (and the practised Roman swagger) when he needs to.

[LazarX]

KestlerGunner wrote:

The biggest question is:

What do all the humans do with the Silents after they become aware of them? Is there an enormous Human Vs Silent genocide in which Earth's history is rewritten in the 1960s? Did all the Silents get shot? Did they get booted off Earth? Did the humans take all their alien technology? Were there pyres on the streets where humans left the bodies of shot white skinned creatures in oversize business suits to burn?

The forget as soon as you lay eyes off of them still applies. While Humanity did boot the Silents, they also totally forgot about them as well. As for the technology, there pretty much wasn't any. The Silents for the main just used Human tech. (that's why they had to influence the creation of a Human space program, to get the live support suit for the Impossible Astronaut.)

Don't forget that at this point, Rory is as much a Time Traveler as Amy is... that tends to make your memories more complicated.

[Cartigan]

LazarX wrote:

Loztastic wrote:

KestlerGunner wrote:

If Rory was 'recreated' by Pond after his death, what's the deal with his memories? Does he remember dying AND being made into a robotic centurion? Can someone explain that slowly to me?

He has said he has plastic Rory's memories, but they are hazy and come and go

Actually if I recall correctly, he tends to avoid using those memories, as they're not particurlarly pleasant, but he can call them up (and the practised Roman swagger) when he needs to.

Speaking of which. Was it just me or did he appear to try and use his finger gun (which I assume he no longer has as a non-plasticene) in Night Terrors?

[Matthew Morris]

LazarX wrote:

The forget as soon as you lay eyes off of them still applies. While Humanity did boot the Silents, they also totally forgot about them as well. As for the technology, there pretty much wasn't any. The Silents for the main just used Human tech. (that's why they had to influence the creation of a Human space program, to get the live support suit for the Impossible Astronaut.)

Don't forget that at this point, Rory is as much a Time Traveler as Amy is... that tends to make your memories more complicated.

but...

Didn't the humans in the transformer mentions the Silents, by name?

[Nevynxxx]

Matthew Morris wrote:

LazarX wrote:

The forget as soon as you lay eyes off of them still applies. While Humanity did boot the Silents, they also totally forgot about them as well. As for the technology, there pretty much wasn't any. The Silents for the main just used Human tech. (that's why they had to influence the creation of a Human space program, to get the live support suit for the Impossible Astronaut.)

Don't forget that at this point, Rory is as much a Time Traveler as Amy is... that tends to make your memories more complicated.

but...

Didn't the humans in the transformer mentions the Silents, by name?

Spoiler:

They refereed to "The Silence" aka the religious order. Not the silents a race.

The implication is that the religious order picked that race for their hidyness to do a specific job on earth.

I'd like to know if this is related to the "Silence will fall" stuff from last season....

[LazarX]

Matthew Morris wrote:

LazarX wrote:

The forget as soon as you lay eyes off of them still applies. While Humanity did boot the Silents, they also totally forgot about them as well. As for the technology, there pretty much wasn't any. The Silents for the main just used Human tech. (that's why they had to influence the creation of a Human space program, to get the live support suit for the Impossible Astronaut.)

Don't forget that at this point, Rory is as much a Time Traveler as Amy is... that tends to make your memories more complicated.

but...

Didn't the humans in the transformer mentions the Silents, by name?

They're Time Travelers as well. (As are the Silents) Rules are different for them. Think non-linearlly! And if you listened to the computer closely.. It is. "The Silence Will Fall When the Question is Asked."

Curious thing is why the Clerics imprisoned River Song for doing the job she was created for in the first place.

[LazarX]

In the context of Dr. Who, becoming a Time Traveller is like becoming an adventurer in the fantasy rpg sense. You've separated yourself from the mundane and from that moment on, you no longer perceive the universe in quite the same way you once did.

[Nevynxxx]

LazarX wrote:

"The Silence Will Fall When the Question is Asked."

Curious thing is why the Clerics imprisoned River Song for doing the job she was created for in the first place.

The Silence will Fall Has been going as long as this Dr....Getting very interesting is that....

Only if "A good Man" is the Dr.....Perhaps it isn't...

[Cartigan]

Nevynxxx wrote:

LazarX wrote:

"The Silence Will Fall When the Question is Asked."

Curious thing is why the Clerics imprisoned River Song for doing the job she was created for in the first place.

The Silence will Fall Has been going as long as this Dr....Getting very interesting is that....

Only if "A good Man" is the Dr.....Perhaps it isn't...

Maybe not. There has been a whole undercurrent since near the beginning purposefully confusing the difference between Rory and the Doctor.

Even the next episode does it in the title and plot - The Girl Who Waited.

[DM Wellard]

The Girl who Waited.

Possibly the best Dr Who Episode...ever

[Nevynxxx]

DM Wellard wrote:

The Girl who Waited.

Possibly the best Dr Who Episode...ever

Bloody hell, coming from you that says a lot. Now *really* can't wait until tomorrow evening, when I can watch the recording....

[Loztastic]

It really was very, VERY good!

[Epic Meepo]

Certainly the best Eleventh Doctor episode yet.

[Cartigan]

DM Wellard wrote:

The Girl who Waited.

Possibly the best Dr Who Episode...ever

It was a good episode, but had a tiny hold in the end of it

Spoiler:

The TARDIS couldn't handle the paradox of two Amy Ponds? It was used to sustain a worldwide paradox of future humans coming back and killing people for over a year!

[Epic Meepo]

Cartigan wrote:

DM Wellard wrote:

The Girl who Waited.

Possibly the best Dr Who Episode...ever

It was a good episode, but had a tiny hold in the end of it

** spoiler omitted **

I immediately thought of that, as well, but...

Spoiler:

The Master's paradox machine was referred to in-episode as a device he built by cannibalizing the TARDIS, so it presumably isn't something that can be done with a healthy, functioning TARDIS. And even if it was, note that the Master never allowed any part of the paradox he created into the modified TARDIS control room itself after the paradox was created (from his perspective). Remember, the Doctor (after he stops lying) says that the two Amy paradox can't exist inside the TARDIS, not that it can't exist at all.

Although it was amusing that I found myself wondering: If the Master had been there, would he have been able to save both versions of Amy? He's always been better than the Doctor at cheating fate.