So I see in the Underwater Combat rules, that bombs should now have a -2 per 5 feet in addition to the -2 at 20 feet, but Alchemist's Bombs have a ton of other effects: splash damage, bonus effects, and so on. Does the scatter diagram change for underwater?
Any fire related effect should simple not work, but there are so many other effects that should also work differently. Since Fog Cloud says it does not work underwater, I'm guessing all of the Cloud related effects are out. What about sonic, acid, cold, and other kinds of bombs?
Fire bombs still work...but not because of fire, but because of heat. Sonic works WONDERS underwater, and may actually be a really good way to scare off non intelligent water based foes, as sound travels farther underwater. But that would be a houserule, so ymmv.
Clouds would work, but quite a bit differently. Think more along the lines of octopus ink-you don't need to breathe it in. Some would only require contact with exposed skin.
All the others would work normally. This is all houserules, default assumption is they work basically the same.
Now, you can't light the bomb underwater without magic, but once the fuse is lit, id assume it would be similiar to dynamite and continue burning underwater. Id assume most alchemists would make fuses like that, especially adventuring ones who get wet on numerous occasions.
Now, you can't light the bomb underwater without magic, but once the fuse is lit, id assume it would be similiar to dynamite and continue burning underwater. Id assume most alchemists would make fuses like that, especially adventuring ones who get wet on numerous occasions.
Alchemist "bombs" are not crude black powder weaponry. They function off of a catalyst. They neither need to be lit or burn in any way and that aspect should be completely unaffected by an underwater environment, outside of the normal penalties for throwing an object underwater.
To further clarify, the Bombs class feature works "as normal" underwater. However, the default bomb does not. Read on for more details:
1) The ability clearly dictates it emulates another spell or effect that is affected in some way by being underwater. For example, you are correct - as smoke bombs say they function as Fog Cloud, and Fog Cloud does not work underwater, neither would this effect.
2) The underwater combat rules specifically reference an aspect of the ability. Edit: It was more harsh than I first read. it is -2/5 feet PLUS range increment penalties. Throwing a bomb 30 feet is a whopping -14 to hit. Good luck with that...
To go into more detail, The Bombs ability is a supernatural ability, which makes it magical in nature (which would be good, since nonmagical fire does not burn underwater, but...). However, since the rules in underwater combat explicitly state that supernatural fire abilities do not work underwater (pg 432) unless they explicitly state otherwise (and the bombs ability does not), I would say that it is safe to say fire bombs do not function underwater. You will need to modify your bombs to utilize some other energy type in order for them to function. This is subject to some interpretation as it doesn't state that it has the [Fire] descriptor, or that it is a "fire effect", but in practicality, it is.
What I mean above is that "bombs are unaffected by underwater combat" was misleading, and I apologize. What I said was that bombs function as normal", but what I mean was that bombs can still be created, thrown, and "react" as normal, but since fire bombs are the default, it is not entirely correct, as those do not work. Acid, Sonic, etc - you're good to go.
I see nothing in the underwater combat rule, splash damage section, or bombs description that says anything about splash damage, etc etc being affected by being underwater, so I believe it functions the same as on land. While silly, remember the mantra, "Game. Not real life simulator."
(edited for more clarity and more description).
Now, you can't light the bomb underwater without magic, but once the fuse is lit, id assume it would be similiar to dynamite and continue burning underwater. Id assume most alchemists would make fuses like that, especially adventuring ones who get wet on numerous occasions.Alchemist "bombs" are not crude black powder weaponry. They function off of a catalyst. They neither need to be lit or burn in any way and that aspect should be completely unaffected by an underwater environment, outside of the normal penalties for throwing an object underwater.
To further clarify, the Bombs class feature works "as normal" underwater. However, the default bomb does not. Read on for more details:
1) The ability clearly dictates it emulates another spell or effect that is affected in some way by being underwater. For example, you are correct - as smoke bombs say they function as Fog Cloud, and Fog Cloud does not work underwater, neither would this effect.
2) The underwater combat rules specifically reference an aspect of the ability. Edit: It was more harsh than I first read. it is -2/5 feet PLUS range increment penalties. Throwing a bomb 30 feet is a whopping -14 to hit. Good luck with that...
To go into more detail, The Bombs ability is a supernatural ability, which makes it magical in nature (which would be good, since nonmagical fire does not burn underwater, but...). However, since the rules in underwater combat explicitly state that supernatural fire abilities do not work underwater (pg 432) unless they explicitly state otherwise (and the bombs ability does not), I would say that it is safe to say fire bombs do not function underwater. You will need to modify your bombs to utilize some other energy type in order for them to function. This is subject to some interpretation as it doesn't state that it has the [Fire] descriptor, or that it is a "fire effect", but in practicality, it is.
What I mean above is that "bombs are unaffected by...
So what difference would it make if you throw it while outside the water, into the water? Would that negate penalties?
No. You cannot attack a submerged creature from the surface with a bomb. Creatures that are completely submerged have total cover against attacks originating from outside of the water. The only exception to this is Freedom of Movement effects, but even that explicitly rules out weapons that are hurled.
Forgot about that. Still, you can aim for a square and take your 50/50 miss chance, I guess.No. You cannot attack a submerged creature from the surface with a bomb. Creatures that are completely submerged have total cover against attacks originating from outside of the water. The only exception to this is Freedom of Movement effects, but even that explicitly rules out weapons that are hurled.
You cannot make an attack against a square that has total cover from you. The water's surface is effectively a wall. (p 196)
I'm a bit shaky on whether or not freedom of movement would allow you to do it or not, I kinda go half and half on my interpretation on it. The exclusion to hurled weapons happens later when it says "while underwater", so you could probably get away with it after further reflection. Still have the huge penalties though.
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So...
"Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range."
You treat bombs as thrown splash weapons... I kind of figured they were a no-go.
Beyond that sticky point you treat alchemists bomb damage like you do any other magical energy attack under water. Fire bombs work just like fireball.
So...
"Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range."
You treat bombs as thrown splash weapons... I kind of figured they were a no-go.
So faq it?
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I don't see how fire bombs work just like Fireball. No where does it say that it functions like that spell. If anything, it functions more like alchemists fire, which specifically doesn't work. The rules say that all fire attacks fail underwater, so I don't see why this should be any different.
I'm not sure why... it's a supernatural ability and quite clearly magical fire.
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So faq it?So...
"Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range."
You treat bombs as thrown splash weapons... I kind of figured they were a no-go.
*shrug*
Personally, I don't see any confusion. You throw bombs, you treat bombs as a thrown weapon in nearly every way. They should have the same limits as thrown weapons.
I was wondering if maybe the Original Poster had some other source that suggested otherwise since he quoted the bit that goes right after it.
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No, I was treating them as ranged weapons. I'm not sure what the rule implication of being "ineffective" would be. It seems like that's saying that I can't use bombs underwater at all, except for the ones that are delayed bombs that are set in a square for later detonation.
" Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack."
Umm. Seems pretty clear they are treated as thrown weapons and would be ineffective (IE not work).
As for Fire spells, the rules specifically say that magical fire is ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a caster level check to cast the spell. Alchemists don't cast, so I don't see how this applied to them.
Supernatural abilities have an effective caster level, generally it's either stated or based on the creature level. In this case it's pretty clearly the alchemists level. Regardless, due to the above it's irrelevant.
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Delayed bombs would still function. I really think you're reading an awful lot into the Supernatural abilities angle.
I'm not sure where the confusion is. Are you suggesting supernatural abilities don't have an effective caster level?
And yes, delayed bombs would function, it's just the throwing bit they would have trouble with.
Alchemist torpedoes!
Seriously, though, if the alchemist is really making them fresh every day like the ability describes, he can make the necessary adjustments to waterproof them.
Nah, I'm for the most part incorrect. It was late and I misread a period as a comma pretty much. Something in the back of my mind seemed off with how the sentence read to me, but I didn't quite place it.
Thanks for clearing it up Ogre!
I will throw out that now that I am proven wrong, I do consider this overly harsh. I can understand the logic behind it, but on the same token, the rules on this need to be errata'd or bomb-focused alchemists need some love for underwater environments. It's foolish to think they would be as effective of course, but given the "Adventurer's Answer" to underwater situations (Freedom of Movement) does nothing to help them whatsoever. I'm sure mutagen focused would fare just as well as anyone else.
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I actually just ran into this tonight at my weekly King Maker game. I ended up grappled under water and talking it over with the GM we decided since I was grappled I could effectively just smash the bomb against the creature and the the fire from the fire bomb would take effect as a steam cloud (the whole heat and water thing). We determined it would do it's additional d6 "fire" damage and being steam under water would disperse immediately after. As far as actually throwing a bomb under water I would say it acts like a ranged attack (although really if you've ever tried to throw anything under water you know it's just not going to happen).
I believe that in 3.5, magical fire effects such as Fireball did function underwater, creating clouds or jets of scalding steam in the area of effect--I think with reductions to damage or area.
Acid bomb under water would certainly create a serious exothermic reaction basically boiling water bomb would work very nicely .
cold bombs work freezing the water
and lightning bombs you could argue deserve a larger splash radius
actually on splash radius you could argue under water bombs should have a smaller splash radius.
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Supernatural ability != magic IMO
Bombs are akin to alchemical fire, not magical fire. They are not a fireball, and they are not a spell and they are not magic.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities. (link)
In other words... It's a kind of magic.
Bomb (Su): In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies.
Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored.
(Bolding is mine). So a bomb is magical, as it is infused with magical energy. Alchemist's fire is not magical. However, a bomb is made on the round it is thrown (except for delayed bomb, obviously), so unless the chemicals are all waterproof and non-liquid, it would be rather difficult to even make a bomb underwater, let alone throw it.