Is a +3 dagger really an "unbalancing weapon"? I dont mean a +1 frost, shocking dagger, i mean +3.
It doesn't do more damage than a long sword, but it will hit more often.
It will do more minimum damage, and be more likely to get one shot one kill goblin strikes....
sure there is the concept of selling it and getting all sorts of goodies, but what happens if say your 2nd level part finds a +3 dagger in a treasure trove?
This could easily happen... but it never seems to because of the whole WBL/CR guide.
It's not even a main weapon? Would your fighter not swing his battle axe for a while and charge the ogre with the +3 dagger instead?
where would a 2nd level party sell this thing? they havent even the connection to buy potions of healing reliably?
Would they be in peril of being mugged if it was known they had this 'powerful' magic item?
If I had a choice between a 1d4+3 or 1d8, I'd take the 1d4+3 for the better average damage. It's only 1 point more on average but your minimum damage will be 4 and the will hit more often. Enough to consistently one shot most 1/4 or 1/3 CR monsters and hit them more often.
If they have it, just throw tougher monsters at them IMO.
Is a +3 dagger really an "unbalancing weapon"? I dont mean a +1 frost, shocking dagger, i mean +3.
No, it won't unbalance the game, though if the GM is a Wealth By Level stickler, I wouldn't want to be the one holding it, as other magical goodies that might be more relevant to my class might not show up. ;-)
I agree with you that it is likely not unbalancing in and of itself. Tha main concern, which you seem prepared to deal with, is a group selling one for what the Core Rulebook says it is worth and using that money to buy other stuff, which might cumulatively be unbalancing.
One other thing I can think of to consider is use of that dagger for a rogue's sneak attack could really bump up the lethality of the rogue, perhaps making him outshine other party members. Not that big of a deal, though.
It greatly increases their chance to hit, and if they sold it they would have far more loot than they are supposed to so yeah it can cause issues. Personally I would sell it. 9000/4=2250. 2250+wealth they already have gets them some decent items before they are supposed to be able to afford them, and it makes the party better in many ways.
They can get a + 1 cloak of resistance, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, and a +1 weapon, and still have money left over.
It is more for different characters.
For the wizard it might put him on par with the fighter on a straight "swing for swing" basis. For a rogue it might be the best thing since flanking sneak attack.
The bigger problems would be the amount it could be sold for, and how it overcomes DR.
It is kind of like the problem "Is it really that bad to give a 3 charge staff of fire at first level?"
Depends on who gets it.
Is a +3 dagger really an "unbalancing weapon"? I dont mean a +1 frost, shocking dagger, i mean +3.
It doesn't do more damage than a long sword, but it will hit more often.
It will do more minimum damage, and be more likely to get one shot one kill goblin strikes....
sure there is the concept of selling it and getting all sorts of goodies, but what happens if say your 2nd level part finds a +3 dagger in a treasure trove?
This could easily happen... but it never seems to because of the whole WBL/CR guide.
It's not even a main weapon? Would your fighter not swing his battle axe for a while and charge the ogre with the +3 dagger instead?
where would a 2nd level party sell this thing? they havent even the connection to buy potions of healing reliably?
Would they be in peril of being mugged if it was known they had this 'powerful' magic item?
A +3 dagger is 18302 gold, so barring haggling it would sell for 9151. I suppose if you say there's no one to sell it to in their location that might alleviate the problem, but if they /can/ sell it then it alone is enough to outfit 4 characters fairly nicely at 2nd level.
For its tactical applications however, it is still fairly potent. Our group in Rise of the Runelords just hit 2, and we've now gotten around 1000gold total in resources. That means most people have a masterwork primary weapon. Giving one +3 weapon is 2 more to hit than that, which overcompensates for the BAB difference at lvl 2 between any classes. Since it cannot be 2handed or power attacked, I don't see the primary fighter using it rather than a big weapon, but for a two-weapon build or rogue it is better overall for reliable damage with a good crit range.
Is a +3 dagger really an "unbalancing weapon"? I dont mean a +1 frost, shocking dagger, i mean +3.
It depends on whether or not the party can liquidate the item. If they can, and you're playing by the rules (sans DM fiat), then you're giving them 9000gp. Again, if you're playing by the rules, then they might have access to some pretty neat gear.
What level is this party, anyway? Or are they purely hypothetical?
Yes, but where oh where are they going to buy all of that magical goodness?It greatly increases their chance to hit, and if they sold it they would have far more loot than they are supposed to so yeah it can cause issues. Personally I would sell it. 9000/4=2250. 2250+wealth they already have gets them some decent items before they are supposed to be able to afford them, and it makes the party better in many ways.
They can get a + 1 cloak of resistance, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, and a +1 weapon, and still have money left over.
Look up Restov, Brevoy. That town is loaded with all the good stuff that we can't seem to get in Stagfort. :P
Seriously, if you're playing the game as designed, large cities are gonna have some, or all, of the things listed here.
I ran a game I started at level 5 because they were all monstrous PCs who had just gotten out of the army. Each had a roll for family heirlooms that had been handed down to them as graduation presents (high magic city, everyone required to go into the military for at least 5 years).
They got a random chance of weapon (normal, MW, +1, +2, or +3). The weapons had a random chance of being unusual in construction (5% Cold Iron, 5% Mithral, 5% Adamantine, 5% Darkwood (wooden only), and the rest normal) which may or may not be usable.
They got a random piece of armor (which may or may not be usable) with similar chances. And a shield (same rolls).
Then they got a random number of magical items (None to 5) of random level (from MIC) of 1/2 to 8th.
These heirloom weapons didn't unbalance things, and the understanding was they could keep the items, but not sell or trade them away (as they were family treasures). They could send them back to the family if they didn't want them/couldn't use them. They also could hold on to them and put them on cohorts down the road. They could also loan them to other PCs.
It was very interesting. We had a barbarian who got an Adamantine Heavy Repeating Crossbow. The player playing the kobold was going to make a wizard, until he got +3 Adamantine Full Plate Mail, a +2 Mithral Mace, and a Marshall's medallion. He decided to play a Kobold Marshall. Of course, there was also the goblin from the poor side of the tracks who got gifted a club, cloth armor, a light wooden shield, and no magic items. :) He was ok with that though, as it meant most of the treasure they found he got first choice of. :)
Overall, it didn't unbalance the campaign, and by level 10, only the Kobold was still using his starting equipment (he actually seemed to like the fact he didn't have to worry about equipment for the first 10 levels).
homebrew, we don't play with magi marts... Strange old men in huts sell potions, mage guilds and adventurer guilds or even thieves guilds will sell stuff but if you aren't a member you're not in.
No magic pawn shops anyone can get into.
Now you could go to a normal armorer, or anywhere and try to sell it (which happens alot) but the question is do they have 9k gold to shell out? and then if they do, you have to take that 9k gold (bags of loot) and go somewhere to buy something that you do not know exists (no menus of magic items).
So it would all be based on knowledge in game. Sure you could RP you way around, do some knowledge local checks and make the connections to unload the item, and if your appraise is right (at that level) you might know what it's worth and whats fair to sell it for.
But all that takes alot of RP. No opening the book and out of game paper work.
And thats if we aren't playing in a silver standard campaign (which we do alot) where you could only SELL the dagger for 9k silver, but magical items will still cost you gold.
Edit: they are all about to be 2nd level, the dagger in question is in a hoarde of treasure uncovered by slaying the brigands that have been ruling the local roads for months. Mostly goblins lead by a half-orc.
A witch, a barbarian, an alchemist and an Inquisitor.
They are all neutral types.
If find it interesting that there is alot out there better than this +3 Dagger for even half the wealth (id rather have a +1 flaming longsword) yet a +3 dagger is worth so much?
I was thinking of dropping a +3 dagger on an up and comming group to see what they would do with it.
What if I made the dagger intelligent, and it didn't want to be sold?
What odd abilities could I give it to have it work it's way back into the hands of the PCs?
What if they did sell it, but then got it back? Whoever paid for it would be ripped.
Would they get accused of stealing?
Of course the party would have NO idea the +3 dagger is intelligent, and I would want to make it relatively hard for anyone else to find it out either....
Ideas?
homebrew, we don't play with magi marts... Strange old men in huts sell potions, mage guilds and adventurer guilds or even thieves guilds will sell stuff but if you aren't a member you're not in.
Then only you can tell us if this is a good idea, or not.
I was thinking of dropping a +3 dagger on an up and comming group to see what they would do with it.
Apparently they can't liquidate it, so one of 'em is gonna be the (un)lucky recipient of what, I'm sure, will be a harbinger of doom.
What if I made the dagger intelligent, and it didn't want to be sold?
Haven't you already made it apparent that selling it will only yield lots of cash (that is no doubt hard to carry)? You're setting 'em up so they have to keep the thing.
Think about it this way : in your eyes, does a +3 dagger and a +3 longsword have the same value? The answer is probably no, so why would it be different for the merchant that would buy it from the PCs. If you give a +3 dagger to 2nd-level PCs, you're already no following the WBL guideline, so, from this point, there's nothing wrong with not following the magic items value guideline. The PCs still want to sell it? Fine, give them 3000po (so that they can buy a +1 weapon) and that would be enough. Don't break your game by trying to follow the magic items value guideline while not respecting the WBL guideline.
And if you want the PCs to keep it, you can give them a story-based reason to do so. Maybe it'S rumored to be cursed and nobody wants to buy it. Maybe this weapon is also a "key" that unlock the secret crypt of Sorn'Tugol or something like that. Maybe it's the only weapon that can kill the Devil in Iron from the ruined city of Arknomen. :)
I don't think it unbalance things too much, it's something to consider though in encounter creation. It's a dagger and really at lowest levels it will improve things it loses it value quick. Now +3 two handed sword would be a bigger problem. 3 more damage on 1 1/2 str bonus plus 3 per power attack negative. A dagger is full str and 1 per power attack negative. Much less damage. Hitting more often with two handed weapon does a lot more than hitting more often with dagger.
I don't think it unbalance things too much, it's something to consider though in encounter creation. It's a dagger and really at lowest levels it will improve things it loses it value quick. Now +3 two handed sword would be a bigger problem. 3 more damage on 1 1/2 str bonus plus 3 per power attack negative. A dagger is full str and 1 per power attack negative. Much less damage. Hitting more often with two handed weapon does a lot more than hitting more often with dagger.
Incorrect -- a dagger is full damage and +2 per negative of power attack.
Not +1 per negative of power attack.
I don't think it unbalance things too much, it's something to consider though in encounter creation. It's a dagger and really at lowest levels it will improve things it loses it value quick. Now +3 two handed sword would be a bigger problem. 3 more damage on 1 1/2 str bonus plus 3 per power attack negative. A dagger is full str and 1 per power attack negative. Much less damage. Hitting more often with two handed weapon does a lot more than hitting more often with dagger.Incorrect -- a dagger is full damage and +2 per negative of power attack.
Not +1 per negative of power attack.
Huh. I didn't realize that light weapons get full bonus on PA. Only off-hand and secondary natural attacks get the 50% penalty.
@Pendegast: You can't go asking questions then switch things up with houserule. That is a huge variance on the rules, and should be stated up front.
1. Since when is a magic weapon not a magic item since you said it sells for silver?
2. By normal rules it is a bad idea. When you list all of your houserules I will respond to how it might work in your game.
@Tempestorm: That chart is one of the ways to get magic items. Another one is to go by the GMG.
Base Value and Purchase Limit: This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp. There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to A larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets. A settlement's type sets its purchase limit.
That is the one that most people use instead of randomly rolling for items assuming they don't flat out say yes just to keep the game moving.
the reason most DM's i have seen (except weekly william) tend to handwave shopping and magic item availability is to speed up what is already a slow game session. weekly william is such a control freak that he requires ludicrous diplomacy checks to even buy magical equipment (DC30+item's caster level) and requires just as high to sell. and he places circumstantial modifiiers based on gender, race, social station, age and ethnicity. essentially, you are penalized if you are not an adult male caucasian human noble. try playing a female 'japanese' half-yokai 'human' loli who grew up in a monastery and recieving the biggest amount of penalties ever, just to roll a crit on the check to get a belt of physical perfection. she even got penalties for being a heretic.
@Pendegast: You can't go asking questions then switch things up with houserule. That is a huge variance on the rules, and should be stated up front.
1. Since when is a magic weapon not a magic item since you said it sells for silver?
2. By normal rules it is a bad idea. When you list all of your houserules I will respond to how it might work in your game.
@Tempestorm: That chart is one of the ways to get magic items. Another one is to go by the GMG.Base Value and Purchase Limit: This section lists the community's base value for available magic items in gp. There is a 75% chance that any item of this value or lower can be found for sale in the community with little effort. If an item is not available, a new check to determine if the item has become available can be made in 1 week. A settlement's purchase limit is the most money a shop in the settlement can spend to purchase any single item from the PCs. If the PCs wish to sell an item worth more than a settlement's purchase limit, they'll either need to settle for a lower price, travel to A larger city, or (with the GM's permission) search for a specific buyer in the city with deeper pockets. A settlement's type sets its purchase limit.
That is the one that most people use instead of randomly rolling for items assuming they don't flat out say yes just to keep the game moving.
In most cases people don't have that kind of cash floating around, so IF you really want to sell it bad, they can give you 1/10 price. Thats the "silver standard" way of playing.
We've also played gold standard, but a shop keep might not necessarily have 9k gold for example on hand, so you can take 9k worth of trade of example, or maybe 7k worth of trade and 2k cash...Often, if you don't want to cash it in for "silver" prices... you could find the "right place" to unload it, but this takes RP.
As I stated, thieves guild, mages tower, a king, someone who has that kind, and deals with those amounts of money.
A major metropolis is more likely to have those kinds of establishments, but heck trying to unload a +3 dagger in falcons hollow would bankrupt the whole town trying to pay for it!
Even if someone had that kind of money in a small town, what's the likely hood of selling it (they are going to want to sell it to close to full price if they paid 50% for it..
And no Im not setting them up to keeping it, I just wanted to see what they would do with it.
The intelligent one that keeps appearing in their gear would be funny. It doesn't keep them from selling it, it just reappears somehow.... (maybe teleport to familiar backpack?)
but even if they had a +3 dagger to sell, they would likely have to sell it in a similar place they could buy it, which means in most cases quite a bit of travel just for the purpose of selling this thing.
Then if they were in a major metropolis, they could very likely get their 9k gold for it, and find plenty of things to buy with the 9k gold, because ti was a metropolis. (or large city)
that's not the same as dropping by ye olde magi-mart.
In most cases people don't have that kind of cash floating around, so IF you really want to sell it bad, they can give you 1/10 price. Thats the "silver standard" way of playing.
We've also played gold standard, but a shop keep might not necessarily have 9k gold for example on hand, so you can take 9k worth of trade of example, or maybe 7k worth of trade and 2k cash...Often, if you don't want to cash it in for "silver" prices... you could find the "right place" to unload it, but this takes RP.
As I stated, thieves guild, mages tower, a king, someone who has that kind, and deals with those amounts of money.
A major metropolis...
Honestly, you seem to have covered all MY suggestions. I don't think +3 would over balance too much, especially with just a dagger. Considering all the various bonuses and feats and abilities floating around... it seems that unlike 2nd edition, +x REALLy doesn't amount to much anymore...
If your afraid of them selling it and getting XXXXXX amount of money... Don't be.
YOU are the DM. YOU decide if there is anyone willing to BUY it, and WHAT they are willing to PAY for it. As you just said, who carries around 9000 Gold to buy a dagger? Even stores and Magic marts would be more willing to 'trade' or 'credit' for it rather than give out cash... Then since your in charge of THAT store... YOU get to decide what uber cool stuff would be available for them to trade!!!
really it's all in your hands :)
yep, thats all ive really ever tried to say about the subject of buying/selling magic.
I never make selling magic "easy" (unless you're 10th level in a major city and trying to get rid of a +1 ring, then it's not worth the rp)
and I make buying magic even harder.
but im a little more intersted in the 'economy' of it being a dagger, if it's a sword or an axe it's suddenly worth 'more' but by RAW it really isnt.
most people wouldnt even sell it at all if it was a sword or an axe, but if the did, it'd be worth the same price...
the irony is just amusing me, as it is as likely (the +3 dagger) to end up riding on the mages belt as it is to get sold, but if it was a +3 longsword it'd be a super weapon.
It could spark a whole portion of the adventure, the trip to a place to sell it, i mean.
I guess I just don't get the point. Why toss out something at low level that is potentially going to throw a monkey wrench in the works? With your house rules it will most likely not be an issue but really, why?
just cuz it's something different.
They didn't sell sting when they found it, did they? Do you suppose elrond would have bought it if they wanted cash?
I find it odd they didnt try to, you would think that group of dwarves needed to be better outfitted to take back the lonely mountain than they were?
See at those levels if the GM gave me a +3 magic dagger I'm most likely going to start being a dagger user of some flavor.
It's just too dang awesome to have a +3 dagger.
The biggest problem I see is what do you do for the rest of the party when they decide to keep it?
It hits the "that's unfair!" territory when one guy has a +3 weapon and everyone else is still piddling around with masterwork stuff.
My advice (at that point) would be 'fancy' equipment in the way of mithral, or adamantine stuff.
But in the end I think this sort of situation is what leads to magic item creep.
It's one thing if the guy has a simple +2 something... that can be almost matched with a ring of protection +2, or a small strand of pearls of power, or an old passed away master's spellbook maybe a mithral something or other armor wise.
But at +3 it's harder to find meaningful matching stuff that isn't going to start raising the magical equipment bar.
It also raise the expectations for future treasure hordes -- after all if we are finding +3 gear at low levels just imagine once we are really at hero level!
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I guess I just don't get the point. Why toss out something at low level that is potentially going to throw a monkey wrench in the works? With your house rules it will most likely not be an issue but really, why?just cuz it's something different.
They didn't sell sting when they found it, did they? Do you suppose elrond would have bought it if they wanted cash?
I find it odd they didnt try to, you would think that group of dwarves needed to be better outfitted to take back the lonely mountain than they were?
Well, selling stuff in Middile Earth would be quite diffrent than golarion...does a merchant have 'detect magic' in middile earth, where magic seems far less common that pathfinder? Do you have orcs nearby to have it glow blue as proof it's magical? It would still fetch quite a bit being made by elves. We need to remember that swords are tools and very important ones in a mideval society. Most folk simply do not ahve the wealth to buy one, especailly one of fine elvish work. Middile earth magic is not defined by 'rules' of roleplaying games. The swords had names and were unique...not "+1 Orc-bane shortsword'
the +3 dagger has it's perks.
it can bypass DR/slashing or DR/piercing, which is very nice early on. this benefit may diminish but there are still moments where it's amazing to have.
a dagger can be easily concealed. i'm sure a lot of you remember a certain 'japanese schoolgirl' i played in the past. she put this bonus to great effect.
daggers can be thrown. why buy a returning dagger when all you need is a long length of string or cord. not too different from a yoyo.
daggers are light weapons and can thus be used when grappled
being a light weapon, daggers have lower off hand penalties.
being a piercing weapon, duelists can utilize daggers.
See at those levels if the GM gave me a +3 magic dagger I'm most likely going to start being a dagger user of some flavor.
It's just too dang awesome to have a +3 dagger.
The biggest problem I see is what do you do for the rest of the party when they decide to keep it?
It hits the "that's unfair!" territory when one guy has a +3 weapon and everyone else is still piddling around with masterwork stuff.
My advice (at that point) would be 'fancy' equipment in the way of mithral, or adamantine stuff.
But in the end I think this sort of situation is what leads to magic item creep.
It's one thing if the guy has a simple +2 something... that can be almost matched with a ring of protection +2, or a small strand of pearls of power, or an old passed away master's spellbook maybe a mithral something or other armor wise.
But at +3 it's harder to find meaningful matching stuff that isn't going to start raising the magical equipment bar.
It also raise the expectations for future treasure hordes -- after all if we are finding +3 gear at low levels just imagine once we are really at hero level!
meh, I don't think we have that problem. None of us do the "that's unfair" thing. It's only one +3 dagger.
Since we rarely buy things, not that we don't often look, the party rarely has things all at an equal level.
that's certainly one way they could go A) change it in for whatever they could get for it , B) Journey somewhere they could get top dollar for it and then buy unilaterally weaker stuff so everyone has something
or C) someone starts using daggers.
I think a +3 dagger is pretty awesome too, especially when no one has any magic items yet.
I'm amusing myself with the image of the party barbarian using it as his main weapon...
I wanted to make a TWF barb that uses punching daggers...never got around to making him.
Huge hulking brute in loin cloth with intsy wintsy weapon....
Half of the responses in the thread assume, and rightly so, the OP is using RAW. Then he drops the homebrew stuff on us halfway through. Sounds like the OP is the best person to answer his own question given the amount homebrew going on there.
weekly william (My DM) gave the fighter of my saturday group a +3 flaming, frost, ghost touch, abberration bane adamantine dwarven waraxe. a +7 weapon, and the fighter is only 8th level. everyone else either has a +1 weapon or a masterwork one.
this is just as Bad as the OP giving a +3 weapon to a 2nd level party.
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And thats if we aren't playing in a silver standard campaign (which we do alot) where you could only SELL the dagger for 9k silver, but magical items will still cost you gold.
I don't understand this statement. How does one person get to buy it for 9k silver, or 900 gold, when other people have to buy it for 9k gold?
heck, i don't understand why PC's have to buy at full price and sell for half, when NPCS buy for half and sell at full. it sounds like a Gygaxian conspiracy to penalize PCs for getting items they can actually use.
if we have have to have static prices for items. it should be the same for everyone. but if we do that, than there is no perk to the item creation feats besides allowing custom equipment. but look at how few DMs are willing to allow that core item that takes up a different slot. like a tunic of natural armor or boots of feather falling. despite there being precedence for it within the adventure paths.
heck, i hate having to wear the BIG 6 to keep up. those items should be turned into part of the standard leveling process.
a +1 sword is not an artifact of legend, it is 2 day project from a bored wizard looking to pass the time. said sword will be sold at the first chance possible to compensate the missing funds from his research budget.
I don't understand this statement. How does one person get to buy it for 9k silver, or 900 gold, when other people have to buy it for 9k gold?And thats if we aren't playing in a silver standard campaign (which we do alot) where you could only SELL the dagger for 9k silver, but magical items will still cost you gold.
No, not buy. Sell.
If you sell the +3 dagger normally, it's 9k gold. But if you are selling in a place where there is no way anyone has money like that, lets say falcons hollow and the local armorer or to some random shop keep. then you could get 9000 silver for 900 gold for it.
IF you were to buy it normally or have it made, or purchase the stuff to craft it yourself you would still be using gold, to reflect cost, rareity whatever.
If you wanted to travel to the right place to sell it (somewhere they can appreciate the value and have the money to pay for it) then you can get an actual gold price for it.
Most people don't have 9k gold in their shop to buy up whatever you want to unload. but if you really want to sell it, hey I guess I can give you this bag of chump change?
It's like having a nice car, alot of people can't give you what it's worth but there is always someone willing to put an offer on it.
In most cases, the PCs get stuck holding on to gear until they can get rid of it for a decent price or use it to barter for something else.
It's just a way of restricting money and cash flow otherwise there would be heaps of it everywhere.
Half of the responses in the thread assume, and rightly so, the OP is using RAW. Then he drops the homebrew stuff on us halfway through. Sounds like the OP is the best person to answer his own question given the amount homebrew going on there.
RAW is NOT (never has been) you HAVE to give the PCs half the gold for selling X item and you HAVE to make anything in the book available. You do not HAVE to let them buy anything.
Those are and always have been general guidelines. Not rules on everyone, everywhere will give you x gold for this item, and always have the gold on hand.
If when we do play gold standard rules, selling the item for 9k gold, assuming the go to the right place with someone who has cash, doesn't guarantee them the ability to do anything with a bag of gold.
IF the 4d4 minor magic items available that are randomly rolled are all junk or something no one uses (+1 short sword is available but no one uses a short sword) then you really just have a bag of gold.
RAW doesn't say you have to give the PCs a bag of gold, this may just earn you "store credit" in GPV. But then you are back to, hey this guy just has a load of crap.
You can't wander away and come back tomorrow and expect the DM to reroll 4d4 new items, they don't regenerate like spells.
There seems to be an automatic assumption by alot of people that A) I can sell this for 9k because the book says so, and B)I can buy anything I want with this money.
That has never ever been RAW. One must read the whole book, not the excerpts of a few tables in the magic items section, it was never designed for every place with a person behind the counter to be a swap meet for magic items.
However, introducing something like a +3 dagger shouldn't be world shattering. It's like saying an adult red dragon can't exist because the PC's aren't powerful enough to kill it yet. Just because the dragon exists doesn't mean the PCs should go get it.
but just because the PCs aren't the right level, doesn't mean they can't come into the possession of something like a +3 dagger.
It's fantasy but we have to stick to WBL and CR because it's in the book, and if you are doing something different, it's just wrong!
TBH I can't even tell you what page WBL is on.
Reminds me of my adamantine, +5, ghost touch, disruption, slingstone of returning......
The most awesome missle ever fired from a kenders hoopac!
ie halfling slingstaff.....
I thought ammo was destroyed when it hit a target?
Have to hop into the wayback machine....wayback before that rule....
Hey why are daggers/swords, etc not destroyed when thrown?
Ie I think adamantmine ammunition should be an exception to that rule and require the damage to objects and broken rules, but some idiot somewhere things a mace made from the same material can deliver 4 billion blows fine, but a slingstone no just the one time.....
It is the same material!
during the second darkness AP we had what came to be called the "death stick" It was a +1 returning elf bane arrow, that was shocking, frost, thundering and a couple of other random scary things.
It was one of those rolled things where they just kept getting results of major ability and roll again, or whatever it was.
This was before we knew about the "destroyed on impact rule" because we are all from 1e as well.
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I guess I just don't get the point. Why toss out something at low level that is potentially going to throw a monkey wrench in the works? With your house rules it will most likely not be an issue but really, why?just cuz it's something different.
They didn't sell sting when they found it, did they? Do you suppose elrond would have bought it if they wanted cash?
I find it odd they didnt try to, you would think that group of dwarves needed to be better outfitted to take back the lonely mountain than they were?
Magic items in LotR were extremely rare. Figure in the whole of the books Frodo got 2-3 'magic' items and most everyone else got squat. The typical role playing group is not gaming in anything close to Lord of the Rings so it makes a bad basis to compare to.
If you are going to slowly put a *few* items like this into the game and never replace them similar to the way items are introduced into Lord of the Rings then it might make sense.
Give them the dagger Pendagast - it sounds like fun.
Make sure you toss in something a bit odd - like whistles in tune when swung or thrown.
this is just as Bad as the OP giving a +3 weapon to a 2nd level party.
I don't know... the last two pathfinder games I was/am in... our low level groups were getting STOMPED by some massive baddies... We BARELY survived and occassionly only due to misunderstanding the new rules...
I can say that if ONE person in our group has a good weapon and can be counted on to hit in ANY situation... I'd be all for it!! Even if it WASN"T me...
/shudders at the way Pathfinder runs noncorporeal....